Parents Not Letting Their Kids Learn Manual
- Thread starter Grandea GTR
- 224 comments
- 17,070 views
- 195
- My Lab
- t3kc0h
- Asus iZ Pro
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
Yeah you can disable them. It requires ripping everything out from under the hood though.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
As @FordMKIVJ5 said, you have a year of "International Driving Permission". That's calculated from date of entry and is valid for precisely 12 months.
Read your own licence details for restrictions on driving abroad, normally it's like-for-like as you'd expect. Don't expect to be driving a bus on a bike licence, for example
For further information check with DVLA.GOV.UK
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
Cheers guysAs @FordMKIVJ5 said, you have a year of "International Driving Permission". That's calculated from date of entry and is valid for precisely 12 months.
Read your own licence details for restrictions on driving abroad, normally it's like-for-like as you'd expect. Don't expect to be driving a bus on a bike licence, for example
For further information check with DVLA.GOV.UK
Guess I'd better go get a UK license this summer, perhaps after a lesson or two.
- 11,985
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
Source for number 1:
You lose energy in the torque converter which means loss in fuel efficency, from what i have seen the last gear on an auto gets good fuel economy as it does some sort of thing where a plate locks and bypasses the torque converter or something like that.
2: Not all and not by that much honda's Grade Logic Control doesn't downshift to the lowest possible gear to engine brake.
3 Why should one worry about manual?
To repair or replace a manual it is cheaper as it is less complex.
One more electronic gizmo means anther costly thing to fail
4: If you are in traffic for 4 hours straight, catch a train, bus or some other form of travel as you will waste 1/4 of your paycheck on fuel.
- 195
- My Lab
- t3kc0h
- Asus iZ Pro
1. Don't want to have to buy a brand new car.
2. Same as 1.
3. Unlike auto trans, Manual transmissions don't have a dipstick and I personally have never heard of anyone ever having to replace that fluid in a Manual. Less moving parts = less chance of something breaking/less need to replace oil.
- 2,235
- Norway
Exactly. Torque converters are inefficient; they're also a thing of the past, new double-clutch autos don't have them. I drove an 8 speed BMW and came off very impressed with the engine braking of that thing. Like I wrote, twenty years ago I would whole heartedly agree on all points. I also fully agree it's more (easily) entertaining and involving driving a stick shift.. It's just that when we review and discuss manual gearboxes and their advantages, we also need to consider the fact that auto boxes are becoming very good. If not, we're discussing with our eyes closed at facts.
Why you should worry about MTF? Seriously? Also that fourth is really besides the point; it was a discussion when you're driving for a good while, not whether you should or not (living in Australia.. I would assume you knew not all places are easily accessible by public transport..!). Having been here for so long, I really thought you would bring a more mature view to the table.
t3kc0h - there are plugs for checking mtf levels.. OCIs are different between manufacturers, most will have a MTF OCI specified in the owner's manual. Some probably states MTF never needs to be changed, I wouldn't know. VW did on their Tiptronic auto boxes on the B5 and C5 (I believe) platform; many expensive ownerships followed lol. Btw, I never directed that manual purist at you.. Also if I really have to support every damn thing I write with anecdotal evidence; my 86 Golf weekend cruiser has a 3 spd auto (not a very intelligent one, lol). My math is not off by any means
On a side note, I used to have a red (pink lol) D21 HB myself.. Manual non-turbo diesel of course (as simple and mechanical as you could).. Thing was a blast and unstoppable.. Good times.I believe the world woulda been a better place without all the nannies you find in cars and everywhere else on a daily basis.. I hope I'll never see the day of driverless cars.. All (car) people should really know how to drive a stick and enjoy a fun, simple car from time to time (for their own good), and I don't want to see the demise of manual transmissions. Just don't ignore the facts..
- 23,800
- Philippines
What modern everyday automatic has less gears than a manual transmission? Everyone is moving into 6-speed to 8-speed torque converter boxes or CVTs or dual-clutch. CVTs are the best, economy-wise, but long-tern durability would still lie with the traditional torque converter box, because the transmission fluid absorbs most of the shock and wear, unlike CVTs and dry dual clutches, which wear down their clutch packs faster.
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Not only should you worry about MTF, you should check it as often as possible. People neglect this all the time, which often leads to expensive repairs down the line. Replacing a synchro can be nearly as expensive as opening up an automatic box to replace the clutch packs unless you can do it yourself. Odds are most people can't.
And with dual-mass flywheels all the rage nowadays, clutch changes on a modern manual are often an expensive pain in the arse. The only way around replacing a worn dual mass flywheel is to replace it with a conventional single mass... not an option for most cars unless there's a tuner aftermarket for them.
I laugh every time I hear this old chestnut. Back in my stupid years, I knew people who could change clothes while having breakfast at the steering wheel. And all of us could SMS while having a drink or a bite at the wheel. All with manual cars.
It works both ways. Overconfidence in your ability to drive a "complicated" manual can make you complacent about driving. And sometimes, the added complication does distract. Studies on the difference are split evenly between those showing an auto to be safer due to the lack of confusing distractions, and those showing a manual to be safer due to attention focusing. All depending on whether the person is paying attention in the first place.
A manual will not keep you from falling asleep on a five hundred mile highway drive, not unless you're going at extremely extra-legal speeds or speeding up and slowing down like an epileptic puppy. In which case, you would be awake, whatever you're driving, but possibly more focused on the act of driving than on the road around you.
Driver safety is inherent in the driver, not the car. A car that is easier to drive is not necessarily more dangerous. We've managed to eliminate the manual choke and ignition advance, yet somehow we're all still alive.
And that's the long and short of it. Your parents are required to feed you and educate you till you can earn a living. Unless that living is as a driving instructor, they're not required to teach you stick. It's really silly not to teach you stick, as it's a valuable life skill, but it's not the end of the world.
MX-5. Or anything manual by Mazda. The old Honda Integra, and the less old Civic Si. The Focus. A whole bunch of stuff. The MX5... did I say that already?
Most modern diesels suck with a manual. Very short powerbands, lots of torque. Properly launching some diesels requires you upshift from first to second in less time than it takes to blink.
And the torque coming off of modern diesels means that you need a very strong clutch to rein it all in. Often backed by a dual-mass flywheel to control vibration... making clutch-changes cost two to three times as much as in older manuals. And if you have enough power, as in the Lamborghini Murcielago, you can roast the clutch after several launches, requiring a clutch change so expensive it makes the GT-R transmission replacement (after... say... 100+ drag launches on the strip with over 600 hp) look like a bargain.
There is a lot to be said about the simplicity and durability of some torque converter automatics, especially in high powered applications, which is why Mercedes AMG used them almost exclusively in some applications.
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With a low-powered car, a torque converter is a huge liability compared to a good manual. But in most applications, with manual shifting, low-friction transmission fluid, electronic lock-up clutches to prevent slurring, and more gears than you could feasibly fit on a single stick, modern automatics are superior in every way except low speed economy.
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If I were buying an old car, I'd definitely spring for a manual. Old 4ATs suck horribly, and older CVTs and Getrag DCT/DSG boxes typically have non-repairable clutch packs.
On a new car, I'd still prefer a manual transmission, but if needed, I'd consider a 6AT with a torque converter or even a Fiesta dual-clutch, now that Ford is making replacement packs available.
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Not only should you worry about MTF, you should check it as often as possible. People neglect this all the time, which often leads to expensive repairs down the line. Replacing a synchro can be nearly as expensive as opening up an automatic box to replace the clutch packs unless you can do it yourself. Odds are most people can't.
And with dual-mass flywheels all the rage nowadays, clutch changes on a modern manual are often an expensive pain in the arse. The only way around replacing a worn dual mass flywheel is to replace it with a conventional single mass... not an option for most cars unless there's a tuner aftermarket for them.
I laugh every time I hear this old chestnut. Back in my stupid years, I knew people who could change clothes while having breakfast at the steering wheel. And all of us could SMS while having a drink or a bite at the wheel. All with manual cars.
It works both ways. Overconfidence in your ability to drive a "complicated" manual can make you complacent about driving. And sometimes, the added complication does distract. Studies on the difference are split evenly between those showing an auto to be safer due to the lack of confusing distractions, and those showing a manual to be safer due to attention focusing. All depending on whether the person is paying attention in the first place.
A manual will not keep you from falling asleep on a five hundred mile highway drive, not unless you're going at extremely extra-legal speeds or speeding up and slowing down like an epileptic puppy. In which case, you would be awake, whatever you're driving, but possibly more focused on the act of driving than on the road around you.
Driver safety is inherent in the driver, not the car. A car that is easier to drive is not necessarily more dangerous. We've managed to eliminate the manual choke and ignition advance, yet somehow we're all still alive.
And that's the long and short of it. Your parents are required to feed you and educate you till you can earn a living. Unless that living is as a driving instructor, they're not required to teach you stick. It's really silly not to teach you stick, as it's a valuable life skill, but it's not the end of the world.
MX-5. Or anything manual by Mazda. The old Honda Integra, and the less old Civic Si. The Focus. A whole bunch of stuff. The MX5... did I say that already?
Most modern diesels suck with a manual. Very short powerbands, lots of torque. Properly launching some diesels requires you upshift from first to second in less time than it takes to blink.
And the torque coming off of modern diesels means that you need a very strong clutch to rein it all in. Often backed by a dual-mass flywheel to control vibration... making clutch-changes cost two to three times as much as in older manuals. And if you have enough power, as in the Lamborghini Murcielago, you can roast the clutch after several launches, requiring a clutch change so expensive it makes the GT-R transmission replacement (after... say... 100+ drag launches on the strip with over 600 hp) look like a bargain.
There is a lot to be said about the simplicity and durability of some torque converter automatics, especially in high powered applications, which is why Mercedes AMG used them almost exclusively in some applications.
-
With a low-powered car, a torque converter is a huge liability compared to a good manual. But in most applications, with manual shifting, low-friction transmission fluid, electronic lock-up clutches to prevent slurring, and more gears than you could feasibly fit on a single stick, modern automatics are superior in every way except low speed economy.
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If I were buying an old car, I'd definitely spring for a manual. Old 4ATs suck horribly, and older CVTs and Getrag DCT/DSG boxes typically have non-repairable clutch packs.
On a new car, I'd still prefer a manual transmission, but if needed, I'd consider a 6AT with a torque converter or even a Fiesta dual-clutch, now that Ford is making replacement packs available.
- 15,390
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
*facepalm* I forgot about the MX5
- 2,436
- Eastern PA
- Weather_Systems
I haven't really had the chance to do any serious manual transmission driving, simply because the one car that our family owns that has a manual is currently off-the-road; if it were able to be driven right now, I'd be driving that... I think.
I have practiced manual before, in a family friend's Civic ('98 DX/EX, something like that, no performance car by any means...) and did reasonably well (Stalled it a few times, but nothing too serious)... but I admit, I'm kinda worried about doing it on our (other) van - because if I theoretically blow the clutch out, for a '86 Vanagon parts are rather hard to come by. That thing's cantankerous as well, plus being a RR 'rolling toaster' isn't that safe in adverse weather... which really means that the only real way I'm going to be driving a manual any time soon is if I buy one (as Joey said) or the Del Sol getting converted from automatic to manual.
I have practiced manual before, in a family friend's Civic ('98 DX/EX, something like that, no performance car by any means...) and did reasonably well (Stalled it a few times, but nothing too serious)... but I admit, I'm kinda worried about doing it on our (other) van - because if I theoretically blow the clutch out, for a '86 Vanagon parts are rather hard to come by. That thing's cantankerous as well, plus being a RR 'rolling toaster' isn't that safe in adverse weather... which really means that the only real way I'm going to be driving a manual any time soon is if I buy one (as Joey said) or the Del Sol getting converted from automatic to manual.
- 23,800
- Philippines
You can only get the new Focus with a six-speed dual-clutch or a five-speed manual. The Civic in the USA is available with both a five-speed auto and a five-speed manual.
The Corolla gets a CVT, the Elantra a six-speed auto, and even the Rio and Accent get six-speed autos in some markets, except those where they get four-speeds for cost saving.
Even a five-speed auto is not much of a handicap in terms of fuel economy stakes, if the ratios are well-chosen.
Again, still a handicap on small-engined cars, but nowhere near as big a handicap as the old 4ATs were.
The Corolla gets a CVT, the Elantra a six-speed auto, and even the Rio and Accent get six-speed autos in some markets, except those where they get four-speeds for cost saving.
Even a five-speed auto is not much of a handicap in terms of fuel economy stakes, if the ratios are well-chosen.
Again, still a handicap on small-engined cars, but nowhere near as big a handicap as the old 4ATs were.
- 11,985
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
On my mums car the ratios are whacked 1st and 2nd are close but 3rd and 4th are over drive gears. and when you go from 2nd to 3rd the drop in RPM is huge
My first car was a 1987 Honda Accord.
It was a 2liter with a 4 speed auto.
it got the same fuel economy as my mums 2010 car.
Sad, all that extra weight from safety junk, and it is paired with a transmission from the 1990s and it's fuel economy is no better.
My first car was a 1987 Honda Accord.
It was a 2liter with a 4 speed auto.
it got the same fuel economy as my mums 2010 car.
Sad, all that extra weight from safety junk, and it is paired with a transmission from the 1990s and it's fuel economy is no better.
- 297
- Aldebaran
- rudolphcarter
Ha ha, it's not like you need to look to the gear stick, every time you use it.Not that hard.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
The big difference that doesn't seem to be getting enough attention here is the enjoyment aspect. Torque converters slur shifts and soften throttle response. CVTs make exhaust noise monotonous and irritating in hard driving. Electronic controls seem to delay downshifts. A car should have instant, completely unsoftened and unsmoothed response at any RPM and in any gear, and automatics don't deliver unless they're a clutch-type - and even so, you're still missing that difficult-to-describe something that's fun about changing gears yourself.
Also, I'm not entirely sure on this, but you might try looking for that clutch-type automatic on one of the cars that still has a cable-operated throttle. I'm not sure which cars do it an how badly, but it seems to me a lot of drive-by-wire systems would be programmed to dull response for reasons of comfort and refinement.
Also, I'm not entirely sure on this, but you might try looking for that clutch-type automatic on one of the cars that still has a cable-operated throttle. I'm not sure which cars do it an how badly, but it seems to me a lot of drive-by-wire systems would be programmed to dull response for reasons of comfort and refinement.
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
Maybe it's a bit drawn out and off topic, but I'd like to insert my own story in here. About 2 years ago, my dad needed a new car. He wanted something smallish, good on fuel, comfortable, and probably with an automatic. He bought an automatic Hyundai Elantra, a car with the all the charisma of a limp cracker. It did its job, but now it's been totaled and he needs a new car again. Despite the fact that he drives 50 mile every day, he won't consider an automatic. He suggested a used Elantra with a manual, but decided against it and is instead seriously considering a Scion FR-S.
I've driven the Elantra extensively, and it's not a bad car. The autobox is pretty good, lets you shift manually, is fairly responsive, and has 6 gears. But in the end, it's still an autobox. I'd sit on the motorway for 50 miles in manual mode just because I liked the control and was used to a manual, and my dad, who'd driven manuals all his life, felt the same. He's 58 but still wants a clutch pedal and stiff suspension (he claims he doesn't like cars, to some extent it's true).
The moral of the story is that it really, really depends on the parents in question. It likely has more to do with their preferences and prejudices than anything else when they decide what transmission you learn on. I learned on a manual partly because I'd have it no other way, and partly because both my parents cars were manuals. I was so used to manuals that as a kid, I used to think that other parents with automatics were really bad drivers for not being able to control their cars correctly (i.e. rolling back on hills, downshifting too late, etc.). My dad almost never lets me talk about cars, but he does appreciate a good driving experience.
I've driven the Elantra extensively, and it's not a bad car. The autobox is pretty good, lets you shift manually, is fairly responsive, and has 6 gears. But in the end, it's still an autobox. I'd sit on the motorway for 50 miles in manual mode just because I liked the control and was used to a manual, and my dad, who'd driven manuals all his life, felt the same. He's 58 but still wants a clutch pedal and stiff suspension (he claims he doesn't like cars, to some extent it's true).
The moral of the story is that it really, really depends on the parents in question. It likely has more to do with their preferences and prejudices than anything else when they decide what transmission you learn on. I learned on a manual partly because I'd have it no other way, and partly because both my parents cars were manuals. I was so used to manuals that as a kid, I used to think that other parents with automatics were really bad drivers for not being able to control their cars correctly (i.e. rolling back on hills, downshifting too late, etc.). My dad almost never lets me talk about cars, but he does appreciate a good driving experience.
- 894
- Michigan US
- Steele_obsidion
- LinksTriforce
i was also not taught originally. i had a friend who only had a stick which made me jealous, we had a stick but it was my aunts prized possession and I was not "capable of doing such a task" stupid parents.
I did learn much later in life, on that same prized possession, but it was only once, for like 45 minutes i know what to do, just need practice.
I did learn much later in life, on that same prized possession, but it was only once, for like 45 minutes i know what to do, just need practice.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
Why should your parents determine whether something is too hard for you?
Parents do that all the time. For example, I don't let my daughter go down the stairs on her own (she's just over 1 year old). I also don't let her try to drive an automatic, let alone a stick shift. If she wants to play with a knife, I don't let her because it would be too hard for her.
I have no problem with parents requiring their kids to learn to drive on the easiest car possible to learn to drive on. Crawl before you walk. Parents are not required to teach their kids how to drive stick. If someone wants to learn to drive stick, they can do that with their own money as an adult. There are sooooo many things you need to learn as an adult.
Other things parents are not required to teach kids how to drive:
- Motorcycles
- 18 wheelers
- Moving vans
- Segues
- Unicycles
- Leer Jets
- Snowmobiles
- Speed Boats
- Sail Boats
- Submarines
These are all things that you can learn to drive as an adult if you wish.
Edit:
A big however on this post is, if your kid is really interested in something, usually the best parenting move is to foster that interest (unless it's poo, don't encourage playing with poo). So if your kid is doing well with an auto and wants to learn manual, ponying up for a cheap manual to learn on would certainly help cultivate their interest. It's expensive though, so it needs to be balanced.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Having a manual over an automatic is chalk and cheese compared to some of the things you listed, like letting a 1 year old play with knives 
It's simply a preference. By having that stick there, you are just as safe in the car as somebody without it.
It's simply a preference. By having that stick there, you are just as safe in the car as somebody without it.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
Honestly for teenagers learning to drive I wish the control system were even simpler than it is. Not having to press the brake to stop, for example, would be safer. Literally any and every control you can remove from the car for a learning teenager is safer. Removing the stereo, for example, would be safer. That's not to say that it's the fastest way to learn, the fastest way to learn to drive would be to be thrown into a super complicated car and forced to learn to drive it. But when it comes to something as dangerous as learning to drive, we should not be going for speed, we should be going for safety.
So no, I reject your notion that a manual is just as safe to learn on as an automatic, and I learned on a manual.
Optimally I think you'd spend about 6 months to a year learning to drive on an automatic before introducing a manual. There is soooo much to learn when you first start. You forget all of the little things you have to get good at to drive.
Edit:
Really optimally I think you'd learn to drive for 6 months to a year on an automatic, and then switch to a DSG or something similar. Learn to select gears and understand engine rpms. Then, if you could, you'd use a clutchless sequential. Then maybe introduce the clutch manual. Then you could introduce more complex manuals.
Obviously you can't do all that though - too many cars.
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- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
Honestly, when you first start to learn to drive, no you should not be on the road at all. You're terrible at it. You get on the road so that you can learn, and learn fast. When you first learn to drive, everything is a distraction. Your mirrors are a distraction, you spend way too much time looking at the speedometer to make sure you're not speeding. Your turns signals are a distraction. All of it is difficult to keep in mind while you're trying to keep the car in between the lines without hitting the guy in front of you or going too slow.
Maybe your argument would make sense if we're talking about someone who had a small amount of driving experience - say, 2 years. But we're talking about people with almost no driving experience who are learning for the first time to check their blind spot, or even just change lanes.
Yes you can learn to drive in a manual, this is well known. I did, millions of people have, that's not the point.
