PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Famine]

but some players don't want Ghosting because it will not be racing which is bollocks.

Ah, good to see you've really thought this through and come up with a solid, reasoned argument.

When there is contact between 2 cars at speed in a game there should be ghosting

What speed? Why? Why not 1mph faster or slower than that speed? Why not 5mph faster or slower? Or 10mph?

That aside, ghosting "at speed" eliminates the number one kind of overtake in both real-world and virtual racing and - more importantly - eliminates any possibility of defence to it: the final corner overspeed/first corner outbrake.

With ghosting "at speed", the chasing car can simply drive clean through the car in front of them and stay on the racing line. There's no ability for the defending car to change lines to break (momentarily) the slipstream and force the attacking car to either go wide for the first turn and compromise their apex, or go narrow and compromise their braking and corner speed.

The attacking car no longer needs to choose or to plan their pass. They just drive through the defender. Is that racing, or is that bollocks?

because it is not real life racing unless we have real life racing stewards, and that is definitely not going to happen.

Aside from that bolded part being just plain weird reasoning, it's not real-life racing at all.

Also a crippled car is far more punishment than any stewards, real or virtual, can give.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Ah, good to see you've really thought this through and come up with a solid, reasoned argument.

What speed? Why? Why not 1mph faster or slower than that speed? Why not 5mph faster or slower? Or 10mph?

That aside, ghosting "at speed" eliminates the number one kind of overtake in both real-world and virtual racing and - more importantly - eliminates any possibility of defence to it: the final corner overspeed/first corner outbrake.

With ghosting "at speed", the chasing car can simply drive clean through the car in front of them and stay on the racing line. There's no ability for the defending car to change lines to break (momentarily) the slipstream and force the attacking car to either go wide for the first turn and compromise their apex, or go narrow and compromise their braking and corner speed.

The attacking car no longer needs to choose or to plan their pass. They just drive through the defender. Is that racing, or is that bollocks?

Aside from that bolded part being just plain weird reasoning, it's not real-life racing at all.

Also a crippled car is far more punishment than any stewards, real or virtual, can give.

PD added insta slowdown now instead of ghosting. It's the worst now. I noticed on Sarthe that when a car suddenly pulls back on the track in front of me (from a crash) he's not ghosted, I don't punt him, I just hear the collision sound and my car insta slows down to match his pace behind him. Same thing happens when people tried to punt me at speed. Above a certain speed difference, collision sound and the car trying to punt me insta slows down and can take the corner as normal, my car unaffected.

Sometimes they still ghost though anf fly through you, so at least you can't count on it (use a car as a brake) and reliably game the system. Lower speed difference punts still bump you off and go unpunished. On Sarthe I was constantly focused on my rear view mirror, last second swerve in the braking zone to avoid the cars trying to push me off from behind... My attention taking a corner, 20% front, 80% behind!

Ghosting is indeed not racing. Insta slowdown isn't either. Constantly having to avoid cars coming in from behind isn't either. Counter steering against cars trying to ram/push you off the road isn't either. GT Sport just isn't racing lol.

It's definitely not better without penalties, but it does help the road rage component, ie people taking revenge for unfair penalties. They still take revenge, but less than before. So while adding a penalty for having to be ghosted or insta slowed would discourage gaming the system, it would probably increase the revenge hits again and trouble at the penalty zones. No doubt the wrong car will often get the penalty only making things worse.

Perhaps keep the penalties hidden until the end, just like the SR hits are kept hidden now. Find out at the finish what you didn't get away with.

Anyway it seems to be the harsh SR deduction system we had before but without penalties and notifications. The simple hit car, other car goes off. -10 SR system, with all the problems that had before. Sometimes it works. One race I got punted off twice in Mulsanne (intentionally, car braking behind me lets go off the brakes to bump me off at the apex into the sand) and both cars got a red rating while I retained a blue rating. One of them finished far ahead of me though (the other crashed) so while the SR deduction worked this time, my race was ruined anyway.

Ghost the car plowing through from behind, assign them a 5 sec penalty and your race can continue. But it will be gamed like everything else. The problem starts with the SR system, that needs to be overhauled first.

 

[O604]

I wouldn't say it's the worst now Sven. Obviously I'm not saying it's better. But You picked a very fast race.

Even in our Friday lobby the lag was tough. And half of us would have left with -SR without any bad intentions.

I feel the PS5 has added a new level of lag, on the higher side of the spectrum, making the overall lag with slower systems/connections greater.

 

[Norrin Radd]

SR.E is not hot lapping btw. And the easiest way to prevent cheating with ghosting is to give a penalty to the car that needed to be ghosted. Collision prevented, dangerous driver still gets the consequences.

So why do you need the ghosting? The problem now is that bad driving has no consequences, add more ghosting but don't change that and you still have the same problems and the problems that ghosting will create. Solutions remove existing problems, they don't JUST add more.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

So why do you need the ghosting? The problem now is that bad driving has no consequences, add more ghosting but don't change that and you still have the same problems and the problems that ghosting will create. Solutions remove existing problems, they don't JUST add more.

I wouldn't say it's the worst now Sven. Obviously I'm not saying it's better. But You picked a very fast race.

Even in our Friday lobby the lag was tough. And half of us would have left with -SR without any bad intentions.

I feel the PS5 has added a new level of lag, on the higher side of the spectrum, making the overall lag with slower systems/connections greater.

You need ghosting so people can't punt their way to a victory or use it for overtaking. I lost count how many times the car behind me lifts off the brake before turn in to bump me wide or off so they can pass. Usually at Mulsanne yet also in other corners on Sarthe. It's not lag as I see they have started braking in time in my rear view mirror, then position their car behind me and lift off the brakes early...

That currently has no consequences for the dirty driver while potentially sending the victim into the sand and reset. Add ghosting and the 'victim' can continue racing. The dirty driver can use it to overtake, yet that's very easy to penalize. If you overtake while ghosted, assign a penalty. Even PD should be able to get that one right.


It's the worst now when it comes to gaming the system (lift off brakes early before turn in to bump pass, push cars out of the way that are legitimetely over taking). It's not the worst it's ever been as at least all the people that are left know the track. I haven't seen many 'tourists', hardly any while starting from the back. Plus the grids are all spread out, even in SR.E there was a 2:59 on pole at Sarthe. The SR and DR ranges are completely scrambled, cars are quickly separated thus less chances for incidents.


I did notice a lot of lag, but it was also mostly South Americans on Sarthe this weekend. With me being in Canada is just a long distance to be racing each other at 374 kph. It didn't feel any different on ps5 vs ps4 pro, but I only did one race on ps5. Much better things to play there

 

[O604]

You need ghosting so people can't punt their way to a victory or use it for overtaking. I lost count how many times the car behind me lifts off the brake before turn in to bump me wide or off so they can pass. Usually at Mulsanne yet also in other corners on Sarthe. It's not lag as I see they have started braking in time in my rear view mirror, then position their car behind me and lift off the brakes early...

That currently has no consequences for the dirty driver while potentially sending the victim into the sand and reset. Add ghosting and the 'victim' can continue racing. The dirty driver can use it to overtake, yet that's very easy to penalize. If you overtake while ghosted, assign a penalty. Even PD should be able to get that one right.


It's the worst now when it comes to gaming the system (lift off brakes early before turn in to bump pass, push cars out of the way that are legitimetely over taking). It's not the worst it's ever been as at least all the people that are left know the track. I haven't seen many 'tourists', hardly any while starting from the back. Plus the grids are all spread out, even in SR.E there was a 2:59 on pole at Sarthe. The SR and DR ranges are completely scrambled, cars are quickly separated thus less chances for incidents.


I did notice a lot of lag, but it was also mostly South Americans on Sarthe this weekend. With me being in Canada is just a long distance to be racing each other at 374 kph. It didn't feel any different on ps5 vs ps4 pro, but I only did one race on ps5. Much better things to play there

I didn't know you had both. Nice.

The gap in lag I think is between a standard PS4 w/hard drive and a decent wireless connection and a PS5 w/SSD and wired connection. The game adjusts the gap. And I don't believe it means PS5 has an advantage here. I don't think anyone does. It just lag.

 

[JSHuiting]

The attacking car no longer needs to choose or to plan their pass. They just drive through the defender. Is that racing, or is that bollocks?

That's a situation that would never occur, when someone brakes it's because theres a corner coming up, if someone would speed up in the hopes of ghosting trough the car in front, that person would surely hit the wall/gravel trap.

We're talking speed differences higher then 10kmh, that's plenty enough to ruin your racing line, you should know that.

Ghosting truely is the only option as Forza Motorsport demonstrated, but even that still has it's flaws so whatever, online racing is doomed by default, even iracing which has stewards can give you some pretty gnarly and unfair races from time to time.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I didn't know you had both. Nice.

The gap in lag I think is between a standard PS4 w/hard drive and a decent wireless connection and a PS5 w/SSD and wired connection. The game adjusts the gap. And I don't believe it means PS5 has an advantage here. I don't think anyone does. It just lag.

Lag can give you an advantage in GTS, especially if your upload stream lags more. But maybe that adjustment is causing those weird half collisions to occur. The insta slowdown of the car hitting you without you actually getting hit. One sided collision.

The only difference I noticed was "loading track" disappeared very quickly just to have to wait for "waiting for other players". Faster loading is pointless for sport races.

I wonder if 3 people can play now on my ps+ account? I assume the ps5 is a primary again, my kid is using the old base ps4 (set as primary so he can play online) and I usually race on the ps4 pro. A couple more generations and we can fill a lobby with one ps+ account

 

[Famine]

That's a situation that would never occur

It's... literally the most basic overtaking manouevre of all and occurs all the time... That's why I started that section (which you didn't quote) by clearly saying so:

That aside, ghosting "at speed" eliminates the number one kind of overtake in both real-world and virtual racing and - more importantly - eliminates any possibility of defence to it: the final corner overspeed/first corner outbrake.

With ghosting "at speed", the chasing car can simply drive clean through the car in front of them and stay on the racing line. There's no ability for the defending car to change lines to break (momentarily) the slipstream and force the attacking car to either go wide for the first turn and compromise their apex, or go narrow and compromise their braking and corner speed.

The attacking car no longer needs to choose or to plan their pass. They just drive through the defender. Is that racing, or is that bollocks?

 

[O604]

Lag can give you an advantage in GTS, especially if your upload stream lags more. But maybe that adjustment is causing those weird half collisions to occur. The insta slowdown of the car hitting you without you actually getting hit. One sided collision.

The only difference I noticed was "loading track" disappeared very quickly just to have to wait for "waiting for other players". Faster loading is pointless for sport races.

I wonder if 3 people can play now on my ps+ account? I assume the ps5 is a primary again, my kid is using the old base ps4 (set as primary so he can play online) and I usually race on the ps4 pro. A couple more generations and we can fill a lobby with one ps+ account

Please enter the Manu Series as a family and take all 3 spots. I want to see that.

 

[Norrin Radd]

That's a situation that would never occur, when someone brakes it's because theres a corner coming up, if someone would speed up in the hopes of ghosting trough the car in front, that person would surely hit the wall/gravel trap.

We're talking speed differences higher then 10kmh, that's plenty enough to ruin your racing line, you should know that.

Ghosting truely is the only option as Forza Motorsport demonstrated, but even that still has it's flaws so whatever, online racing is doomed by default, even iracing which has stewards can give you some pretty gnarly and unfair races from time to time.

Are you mad? BOB situation here, I'm on someone's tail coming to a corner I take the racing line but brake really late, I either ghost through him and all is good or I ram him off the road and take the place. No downside and who cares about the pen as it isn't effective enough to bother my game.

 

[JSHuiting]

It's... literally the most basic overtaking manouevre of all and occurs all the time... That's why I started that section (which you didn't quote) by clearly saying so:

I know you find yourself really interesting and like to quote yourself, i've been lurking long enough, but i'm talking about higher speed differences, not just outbraking someone by a small margin like you're implying, in those situations ghosting shouldn't be applied.

I'm talking about situations that often occur at Monza's first corner and such.

Are you mad? BOB situation here, I'm on someone's tail coming to a corner I take the racing line but brake really late, I either ghost through him and all is good or I ram him off the road and take the place. No downside and who cares about the pen as it isn't effective enough to bother my game.

Again same for you, i'm talking about higher speed differences, read.

Punters at lower speeds can't be dealth with since bumping into someone can be a honest mistake, only way to deal with these is to have a report system, get too many reports, and you're out.

Damage would be abused, penalties haven't worked so far, and 100% ghosting wouldn't be real racing.

My true opinion is too just avoid online in general though, it'll always be a mess as long as there are kids on there.

 

[Famine]

I know you find yourself really interesting and like to quote yourself, i've been lurking long enough

Fascinating, but irrelevant.

If you don't have anything meaningful to say and just want to turn the discussion onto the people who don't agree with you rather than the topic, go back to lurking.

but i'm talking about higher speed differences, not just outbraking someone by a small margin like you're implying, in those situations ghosting shouldn't be applied.

I'm talking about situations that often occur at Monza's first corner and such.

I'm also talking about situations that often occur at Monza's first corner and such. I literally referred to first corner overtakes in my post. Here it is for a third time:

That aside, ghosting "at speed" eliminates the number one kind of overtake in both real-world and virtual racing and - more importantly - eliminates any possibility of defence to it: the final corner overspeed/first corner outbrake.

With ghosting "at speed", the chasing car can simply drive clean through the car in front of them and stay on the racing line. There's no ability for the defending car to change lines to break (momentarily) the slipstream and force the attacking car to either go wide for the first turn and compromise their apex, or go narrow and compromise their braking and corner speed.

The attacking car no longer needs to choose or to plan their pass. They just drive through the defender. Is that racing, or is that bollocks?

This time actually read it and respond to the whole thing, instead of taking a little bit of the post and deciding you don't like it outside the context established, or attacking me.

 

[Norrin Radd]

I know you find yourself really interesting and like to quote yourself, i've been lurking long enough, but i'm talking about higher speed differences, not just outbraking someone by a small margin like you're implying, in those situations ghosting shouldn't be applied.

I'm talking about situations that often occur at Monza's first corner and such.


Again same for you, i'm talking about higher speed differences, read.

Punters at lower speeds can't be dealth with since bumping into someone can be a honest mistake, only way to deal with these is to have a report system, get too many reports, and you're out.

Damage would be abused, penalties haven't worked so far, and 100% ghosting wouldn't be real racing.

My true opinion is too just avoid online in general though, it'll always be a mess as long as there are kids on there.

The system already ghosts people who go for an all out ram, so what are you suggesting changes?
Reports are pointless and a really bad idea (even worse than ghosting) you take any youtuber video where he blame "Billy" for his terrible driving and you can be sure that loads of idiots are going to report him if they come across him even if nothing happens. So all reports would need to be verified by a human and this is impossible.
Why is damage a bad idea? If used with a decent penalty system B/S drivers and above wouldn't want to risk damage as it's game over. Yes the damage model we have now is useless, but a better one could work.
What penalty system? One where you are 1 SR and back to 99 in 5 games? Yes it doesn't work, but penalties can work if done right.
A decent system could teach kids to drive well, this mess encourages bad driving. So don't blame the kids for doing what their elders taught them.

 

[BigSarj]

Kaz said they are working on better netcode for GT7. Maybe that will be the solution we need.

Just trying to muster some hope for the future.

 

[CBH]

That's a situation that would never occur, when someone brakes it's because theres a corner coming up, if someone would speed up in the hopes of ghosting trough the car in front, that person would surely hit the wall/gravel trap.

We're talking speed differences higher then 10kmh, that's plenty enough to ruin your racing line, you should know that.

Ghosting truely is the only option as Forza Motorsport demonstrated, but even that still has it's flaws so whatever, online racing is doomed by default, even iracing which has stewards can give you some pretty gnarly and unfair races from time to time.

Ghosting truly is the only solution to stop unnecessary action anywhere out on the track, like when there is contact comes between 2 cars.

Without ghosting in this game it would not be a fair like it is now, and you need people to monitor every race like racing stewards which will make it fair racing, but that's never going to happen.
Having damage in daily races it can be put in the game, but have ghosting when contacts come between cars or unnecessary behaviour out on track, because this game is not real life racing.
You just can't have real life racing in a game like we got now, and the only fix is ghosting to put a stop to this behaviour.

 

[OJBrit]

Punters at lower speeds can't be dealth with since bumping into someone can be a honest mistake, only way to deal with these is to have a report system, get too many reports, and you're out.

This is so easy to abuse. I don't like you beat me in this race. Report. I don't like your nationality. Report. I failed to punt you. Report.
This is such a shockingly bad idea.

Ghosting truly is the only solution to stop unnecessary action anywhere out on the track, like when there is contact comes between 2 cars.

It's honestly not. It removes some of the fun of racing. Of going door to door with an opponent. Having a proper way to sort SR so dregs sink and cream rises is the best solution. Failing that damage comes next.

 

[CBH]

It's honestly not. It removes some of the fun of racing. Of going door to door with an opponent. Having a proper way to sort SR so dregs sink and cream rises is the best solution. Failing that damage comes next.

Door to door racing is ok in real life but not ok in this game we got, because of the unnecessary action that players do out on the track. What I have been saying is the correct way to stop the behavior occurring in daily races, and having no ghosting and no damage is going to make a wreckfeast racing in future.

 

[Famine]

Ghosting truly is the only solution to stop unnecessary action anywhere out on the track, like when there is contact comes between 2 cars.

Without ghosting in this game it would not be a fair like it is now, and you need people to monitor every race like racing stewards which will make it fair racing, but that's never going to happen.
Having damage in daily races it can be put in the game, but have ghosting when contacts come between cars or unnecessary behaviour out on track, because this game is not real life racing.
You just can't have real life racing in a game like we got now, and the only fix is ghosting to put a stop to this behaviour.

Door to door racing is ok in real life but not ok in this game we got, because of the unnecessary action that players do out on the track. What I have been saying is the correct way to stop the behavior occurring in daily races, and having no ghosting and no damage is going to make a wreckfeast racing in future.

You are aware that there's no actual reasoning in these posts, right?

Your posts in this thread (among others) are just saying "this is right because it's right and as it's right, it's right which means it's right. Also the other thing is wrong because it's not right". You're not actually advancing any points, or using any reasoning or logic at all, and there's no discussion to be had as a result.


The most common overtake in all motorsport - real or virtual - comes on the main straight.

The attacking car hangs back to get a better run out of the final corner, slipstreams down the straight, ducks out of the slipstream with sufficient overspeed and then uses the speed differential to get ahead into turn one. The defending car makes one move on the straight to break the slipstream, and then makes a second move in the braking zone to force the attacking car into a compromised line for turn one - either forcing them wide to deny the apex, or forcing them inside to reduce their corner speed.

Your "ghosting at speed" (you won't say what speed though, tellingly) eliminates any possibility to defend and requires no intelligence on behalf of the attacking driver. The defender can no longer move to force the attacker to pick from two compromised lines, because the attacker can simply ghost right through them.

You say that the argument that ghosting eliminates racing is "bollocks", but here is an example where what you propose directly leads to the elimination of racing - and not only that, it does it in the single most common instance of two cars racing each other.

Use reasoning to show how, somehow, this isn't the case. That's how you discuss, not "this is right because it's right so it's right and other things are wrong because they aren't right".

 

[BaareCZ]

I realize now why all the SR ups / downs and penalties have been removed. No more faulty penalty videos... Behind the scenes the same wrong assignments still happen, yet you can't expose them anymore as no one is going to watch a full race to analyze the SR outcome.

That's exactly the same conclusion I've come to about this decision as well. No more shame for PD. I bet the person who came up with it has gotten a raise. It's also the reason I've lost all hope GT7 will be any different than GTS (except for graphics of course) and why I will not be getting it when it comes out or anytime soon after. Even though I've finally found a store where you can actually buy a PS5 and not just order it and then maybe get it in like 8 to 10 months.

 

[Barra333]

There is a time and a place for ghosting, but the triggers need to be set right - outside of the realm of anything that would occur in an otherwise clean race. A speed differential of something like 50kmh (in a single class race) would eliminate the intentional punt and getting taken out by someone who spun in front while keeping the integrity of what Famine is talking about. If ghosting kicks in at slipstream speed differentials, then we may as well pack up and move on.

 

[OJBrit]

Door to door racing is ok in real life but not ok in this game we got, because of the unnecessary action that players do out on the track.

Just because some idiots can't race door to door doesn't make door to door racing not o.k. for this game. I have had many good races door to door with both members on here and the general public in Daily Races. It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied.

 

[Norrin Radd]

There is a time and a place for ghosting, but the triggers need to be set right - outside of the realm of anything that would occur in an otherwise clean race. A speed differential of something like 50kmh (in a single class race) would eliminate the intentional punt and getting taken out by someone who spun in front while keeping the integrity of what Famine is talking about. If ghosting kicks in at slipstream speed differentials, then we may as well pack up and move on.

Ghosting should be removed and the SR system improved to keep bad/dirty drivers away from clean drivers. Ghosting extreme cases and/or cars that leave the track is the most we should have for S rated drivers, because dirty drivers shouldn't be able to attain an S.

 

[Barra333]

Ghosting extreme cases and/or cars that leave the track is the most we should have

Which is exactly the situations I gave. On track penalties that discourage dirty driving need to deal with the rest.

 

[CBH]

Just because some idiots can't race door to door doesn't make door to door racing not o.k. for this game. I have had many good races door to door with both members on here and the general public in Daily Races. It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied.

So have I had door to door racing a few years ago with the general public in Daily Races, and the few races I did were the lucky ones and the good ones, but not to many. I have avoided idiots out on the track back then, but it is not very good racing if you are trying to avoid this bad behaviour.

A few years ago bad behaviour was around and the bad behaviour is still happening now, so to stop this bad behaviour from happening, you have to introduce something to put a stop to this.
Ghosting is the only key to get rid of this bad behaviour out on the track, and a penalty system will not solve the problem or a SR will not fix it either.

Damage will definitely not fix the problem when you got idiots out on the track, and also it will just make it a whole lot worst than enjoying your time with the general public in Daily Races. Damage or no damage on a car, is definitely not going to stop the punting and divebombing from happening.

You say It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied, no it should not be applied because it is not real racing. When you have idiots out on the track in daily races it is not going to be like real life racing, because real life racing has got racing stewards watching you, in a game like we got now we have not got racing stewards watching you right.
So to make it fair & enjoyable and never worry about the idiot, ghosting is the fix to all this when it comes to collisions.

 

[BigSarj]

So have I had door to door racing a few years ago with the general public in Daily Races, and the few races I did were the lucky ones and the good ones, but not to many. I have avoided idiots out on the track back then, but it is not very good racing if you are trying to avoid this bad behaviour.

A few years ago bad behaviour was around and the bad behaviour is still happening now, so to stop this bad behaviour from happening, you have to introduce something to put a stop to this.
Ghosting is the only key to get rid of this bad behaviour out on the track, and a penalty system will not solve the problem or a SR will not fix it either.

Damage will definitely not fix the problem when you got idiots out on the track, and also it will just make it a whole lot worst than enjoying your time with the general public in Daily Races. Damage or no damage on a car, is definitely not going to stop the punting and divebombing from happening.

You say It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied, no it should not be applied because it is not real racing. When you have idiots out on the track in daily races it is not going to be like real life racing, because real life racing has got racing stewards watching you, in a game like we got now we have not got racing stewards watching you right.
So to make it fair & enjoyable and never worry about the idiot, ghosting is the fix to all this when it comes to collisions.

So time trials.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

So have I had door to door racing a few years ago with the general public in Daily Races, and the few races I did were the lucky ones and the good ones, but not to many. I have avoided idiots out on the track back then, but it is not very good racing if you are trying to avoid this bad behaviour.

A few years ago bad behaviour was around and the bad behaviour is still happening now, so to stop this bad behaviour from happening, you have to introduce something to put a stop to this.
Ghosting is the only key to get rid of this bad behaviour out on the track, and a penalty system will not solve the problem or a SR will not fix it either.

Damage will definitely not fix the problem when you got idiots out on the track, and also it will just make it a whole lot worst than enjoying your time with the general public in Daily Races. Damage or no damage on a car, is definitely not going to stop the punting and divebombing from happening.

You say It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied, no it should not be applied because it is not real racing. When you have idiots out on the track in daily races it is not going to be like real life racing, because real life racing has got racing stewards watching you, in a game like we got now we have not got racing stewards watching you right.
So to make it fair & enjoyable and never worry about the idiot, ghosting is the fix to all this when it comes to collisions.

If the SR system was working it would be no problem because the dirty drivers would all be in SR A or below.

 

[Norrin Radd]

So time trials.

That's exactly what I was thinking, if you don't want to actually race against people why play a racing game online? Do time trials or play against the AI.
I think we have to groups of people here wanting different things. The ghosters who just want the races to be without incidents and the rest of us who want to race, but wish PD would fix the penalty system so those who want to race cleanly don't have to cope with idiots every game.

 

[OJBrit]

So have I had door to door racing a few years ago with the general public in Daily Races, and the few races I did were the lucky ones and the good ones, but not to many. I have avoided idiots out on the track back then, but it is not very good racing if you are trying to avoid this bad behaviour.

A few years ago bad behaviour was around and the bad behaviour is still happening now, so to stop this bad behaviour from happening, you have to introduce something to put a stop to this.
Ghosting is the only key to get rid of this bad behaviour out on the track, and a penalty system will not solve the problem or a SR will not fix it either.

Damage will definitely not fix the problem when you got idiots out on the track, and also it will just make it a whole lot worst than enjoying your time with the general public in Daily Races. Damage or no damage on a car, is definitely not going to stop the punting and divebombing from happening.

You say It's a racing game so racing techniques and and ability should be able to be applied, no it should not be applied because it is not real racing. When you have idiots out on the track in daily races it is not going to be like real life racing, because real life racing has got racing stewards watching you, in a game like we got now we have not got racing stewards watching you right.
So to make it fair & enjoyable and never worry about the idiot, ghosting is the fix to all this when it comes to collisions.

I guess you have been unlucky. Whilst I have met my fair share of idiots whilst I have been hovering around the 20K DR mark I have had more clean side by side racing than not. The key is to not assume everyone is dirty. If you are going to purposely look out for dirty driving to avoid it then you'll see it everywhere even in places it is not.

Ghosting is a way to deal with it and nobody is saying it isn't. It's just the worst way of dealing with it. It removes a fundamental aspect of the game which is racing. That's why it is only used in the beginner lobbies currently as that is the place to grown and learn technique. In fact ghosting would turn away those who want to race and leave the dirty players in as the system would let them continue to drive they way they want to drive.

Damage would be a long term solution. Yes everyone would suffer to start with but those who drive like idiots would get annoyed an fed up with their car constantly damaged and drivable. They would leave which leaves us with those who want to race properly and maybe a few trolls. With a proper SR system in place those trolls would be fighting each other under the bridge leaving us alone.

Part of the problem is that you are not seeing the game as a racing game like everyone else is. It's not perfect but it does promote racing techniques and even teaches you them. Stewards are not infallible and the penalty system is supposed to act as stewards. PD has turned it off and only they will know why. But for many this is as close to racing as they will ever get and ghosting will not be suffice for that.

 

[Norrin Radd]

I guess you have been unlucky. Whilst I have met my fair share of idiots whilst I have been hovering around the 20K DR mark I have had more clean side by side racing than not. The key is to not assume everyone is dirty. If you are going to purposely look out for dirty driving to avoid it then you'll see it everywhere even in places it is not.

I have 3 accounts I use (well normally) my normal one, one where I just don't care and retaliate and one where I drive so squeaky clean it's unbearable.
Now the clean one now is just unusable as there are far too many people willing to take that little extra step to win, but if we think back to when we had a pen system.....AH so from my experience of mucking about with the 3 accounts is that most bumping is caused by: And IMO this is the order they happen in:
1) Mistakes, so accidents and nothing malicious. Now on my bad account I still retaliate with accidents, because if you accidentally hit me BUT take the place anyway it's still dirty play IMO. Drop back and it stays an accident.
2) Driving incidents. These are more common than most people think, just check the replay and from your view it looks like he's bad, but he sees you as the baddie. Yet people retaliate and it just becomes a mess.
3) No idea about etiquette. Few weeks ago at Bathurst coming up to Griffins I stay on the inside and the guy behind rams me, later claiming that blocking isn't racing. I stayed on the right all the way down the straight I didn't even bother trying to break slip as it was pointless. Pit exits is another one that people don't get and it's so stupid. Pull out in front of me and an accident is likely, make me have to drive round you and you have a decent chance of keeping the position.
4) Deliberate ramming, bumping, shoving, brake checking and generally being a Richard. And even then loads of this is caused by retaliation for things that weren't bad in the first place.

The rest is pretty on the spot, although how to actually implement the damage and/or penalty system is a major issue and let's just hope that they have spent loads of time getting it right for GT7.