PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Sven Jurgens]

I have 3 accounts I use (well normally) my normal one, one where I just don't care and retaliate and one where I drive so squeaky clean it's unbearable.
Now the clean one now is just unusable as there are far too many people willing to take that little extra step to win, but if we think back to when we had a pen system.....AH so from my experience of mucking about with the 3 accounts is that most bumping is caused by: And IMO this is the order they happen in:
1) Mistakes, so accidents and nothing malicious. Now on my bad account I still retaliate with accidents, because if you accidentally hit me BUT take the place anyway it's still dirty play IMO. Drop back and it stays an accident.
2) Driving incidents. These are more common than most people think, just check the replay and from your view it looks like he's bad, but he sees you as the baddie. Yet people retaliate and it just becomes a mess.
3) No idea about etiquette. Few weeks ago at Bathurst coming up to Griffins I stay on the inside and the guy behind rams me, later claiming that blocking isn't racing. I stayed on the right all the way down the straight I didn't even bother trying to break slip as it was pointless. Pit exits is another one that people don't get and it's so stupid. Pull out in front of me and an accident is likely, make me have to drive round you and you have a decent chance of keeping the position.
4) Deliberate ramming, bumping, shoving, brake checking and generally being a Richard. And even then loads of this is caused by retaliation for things that weren't bad in the first place.

The rest is pretty on the spot, although how to actually implement the damage and/or penalty system is a major issue and let's just hope that they have spent loads of time getting it right for GT7.

Well race A this week is 4) right from go. People start shoving before T1 already, pushing each other into the wall, then diving full speed into T1. Then more shoving and pushing on the way to Quarry bend where more people end up in the wall. I've had races where I've gone from last to first before the cutting, just by avoiding the mayhem.

There are simply no consequences to all that pushing, and the walls are very effective in slowing down your competition. Plus a little punt at Forest elbow and Murray's corner is a guaranteed pass, yet most just work their nose on the inside and let momentum do the work. Pit manoevers on the straights happen a lot, as well as brake checking.

Also the shortcut penalties don't work anymore as a lot of people just take the grass at the Chase then try to bump you off from the side when re-entering the road at the pit entrance. (Penalty at the dipper still works, but not at the chase)

It's wreckfest, plain and simple. No consequences and it becomes a battle royale game.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I have 3 accounts I use (well normally) my normal one, one where I just don't care and retaliate and one where I drive so squeaky clean it's unbearable.
Now the clean one now is just unusable as there are far too many people willing to take that little extra step to win, but if we think back to when we had a pen system.....AH so from my experience of mucking about with the 3 accounts is that most bumping is caused by: And IMO this is the order they happen in:
1) Mistakes, so accidents and nothing malicious. Now on my bad account I still retaliate with accidents, because if you accidentally hit me BUT take the place anyway it's still dirty play IMO. Drop back and it stays an accident.
2) Driving incidents. These are more common than most people think, just check the replay and from your view it looks like he's bad, but he sees you as the baddie. Yet people retaliate and it just becomes a mess.
3) No idea about etiquette. Few weeks ago at Bathurst coming up to Griffins I stay on the inside and the guy behind rams me, later claiming that blocking isn't racing. I stayed on the right all the way down the straight I didn't even bother trying to break slip as it was pointless. Pit exits is another one that people don't get and it's so stupid. Pull out in front of me and an accident is likely, make me have to drive round you and you have a decent chance of keeping the position.
4) Deliberate ramming, bumping, shoving, brake checking and generally being a Richard. And even then loads of this is caused by retaliation for things that weren't bad in the first place.

The rest is pretty on the spot, although how to actually implement the damage and/or penalty system is a major issue and let's just hope that they have spent loads of time getting it right for GT7.

I can confirm this. I decided to only call a driver dirty if it's blatantly obvious (repeat punts, punting several people) otherwise always view the replay to decide.
This morning in race C I was squeezed partly off in T2 at Fuji by another driver, I didn't just stayed off but kept a wheel on the kerb and drove side by side (with contact) to T3. This gave me the inside and I saw nothing dirty about it what so ever.
But he did... In the mirror he was flashing for a couple of turns. Then I pulled away. When we pitted he was behind me, but caught up to me and in the first right after the chicane he simply punted me off. Clearly he was retaliating from what he thought was a dirty move (we where equal at fault in my book) and felt it was within his rights.
I didn't retaliate, because what would that accomplish? Two wrongs makes two wrongs, not a right.

Told him to check the replay, he replied :"Concratulations Resident_Knievel". So clearly he isn't going to check and will for ever think he punted a dirty driver.

When in fact he contributed to the lower driving standard.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Well race A this week is 4) right from go. People start shoving before T1 already, pushing each other into the wall, then diving full speed into T1. Then more shoving and pushing on the way to Quarry bend where more people end up in the wall. I've had races where I've gone from last to first before the cutting, just by avoiding the mayhem.

There are simply no consequences to all that pushing, and the walls are very effective in slowing down your competition. Plus a little punt at Forest elbow and Murray's corner is a guaranteed pass, yet most just work their nose on the inside and let momentum do the work. Pit manoevers on the straights happen a lot, as well as brake checking.

Also the shortcut penalties don't work anymore as a lot of people just take the grass at the Chase then try to bump you off from the side when re-entering the road at the pit entrance. (Penalty at the dipper still works, but not at the chase)

It's wreckfest, plain and simple. No consequences and it becomes a battle royale game.

Yes it's like this now due to no penalties which was partially my point. Even the poor penalty system we had was enough to make the dirty for dirty sake driver the exception rather than the rule as it is now. You just have to assume everyone is dirty.

On a positive note I had a great race at Fuji. he was in front before the pits and I leapfrogged him. Lots of tight racing with the occasional scraped panel. Then on the penultimate lap he punts me at the first corner and yes I'm thinking he was only clean till it looked tight then he will do anything to win, but no he stopped and let me go. He did get me cleanly on the last lap when my tyres were shot and his were 2 laps fresher, but I didn't care cos it was a really good fun clean race.

 

[Famine]

Ghosting is the only key to get rid of this bad behaviour out on the track, and a penalty system will not solve the problem or a SR will not fix it either.

Damage will definitely not fix the problem when you got idiots out on the track, and also it will just make it a whole lot worst than enjoying your time with the general public in Daily Races. Damage or no damage on a car, is definitely not going to stop the punting and divebombing from happening.

But... why? You're literally not providing any information, just saying "this will work because it will and this won't because it won't". It's another junk post which doesn't move the discussion forward at all.

Your posts in this thread (among others) are just saying "this is right because it's right and as it's right, it's right which means it's right. Also the other thing is wrong because it's not right". You're not actually advancing any points, or using any reasoning or logic at all, and there's no discussion to be had as a result.

I've patiently explained to you why ghosting people at "speed" (whatever that means) eliminates all planning and tactics - both attacking and defending - in the most common single overtaking move in all racing, real or virtual. Your response is to not even respond, just "ghosting will work and nothing else will, because it will work and nothing else will".

You haven't explained in the slightest how simply pretending the cars don't exist will "get rid of this bad behaviour". Ignoring "bad behaviour" doesn't get rid of it; punishing it does. All that ghosting achieves is getting rid of any racing at all.


If all you want to do is make the same posts over and over again with nothing fresh to offer and no engagement, you're better off making your own blog or yelling it into social media. This is a discussion forum.

 

[Cherryturbo]

Yet again I find myself writing a missive on both the appalling on track behaviour and PD inability to provide a workable transparent penalty system.

I just ran a Race C. DR C / SR S. Started 7th on the grid.

During the next 20 minutes or so, my car was hit on 14 separate occasions. Most caused loss of position, two hit me so hard I got reset.

I finished 16th from 17 finishers. I finished with a blue SR rating. Unfortunately I also lost 974 DR. This equates to 13.2% of my DR prior to the race. From one race!

Whilst the current penalty system, whatever it is, is laughable, the player behaviour at my level is disgraceful.

As a hobby, pastime, call it what you will, it fails on almost every account. This is principally because of the obnoxious behaviour of my competitors, some of whom will be reading this and laughing. If you are one of those, take a close look at yourself in a mirror. I hope your reflection is pleasing to you.

I just want to drive around a beautiful game in a competitive environment without the ever present threat of auto GBH.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Yes it's like this now due to no penalties which was partially my point. Even the poor penalty system we had was enough to make the dirty for dirty sake driver the exception rather than the rule as it is now. You just have to assume everyone is dirty.

On a positive note I had a great race at Fuji. he was in front before the pits and I leapfrogged him. Lots of tight racing with the occasional scraped panel. Then on the penultimate lap he punts me at the first corner and yes I'm thinking he was only clean till it looked tight then he will do anything to win, but no he stopped and let me go. He did get me cleanly on the last lap when my tyres were shot and his were 2 laps fresher, but I didn't care cos it was a really good fun clean race.

Yep, I guess I have to go into guilty until proven innocent mode... Passing on the straight is just not possible on race A. People drive in the middle of the road and mirror your moves no matter how much speed you have on them. It's not racing. I'll take driving in the middle of the road on the straight as a sign the driver is dirty and play accordingly. Had it with trying to pass clean only to be forced into the grass or wall. Pick a side, one move, one move back, that's it. Swerve or last second push off, and they'll meet the wall.

I did have a 4 race clean streak on race A, then got pushed off on the straight. Back to zero.

 

[jrbabbitt]

If the SR system was working it would be no problem because the dirty drivers would all be in SR A or below.

Actually I believe that if the penalty system is now SR based it SHOULD be DR & SR based, really hurt their ratings for being putzes

 

[CBH]

At least with Ghosting you will definitely have a Peace of mind out on the track in every race you may enter, and never have to worry about idiots ruining your time out on the track. This is a video game and you can't have real life racing in this game, you just can't have it and the only logic way is to have ghosting to put the end to these idiots.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Actually I believe that if the penalty system is now SR based it SHOULD be DR & SR based, really hurt their ratings for being putzes

A lot of them wants that reset, it gives easy wins.

 

[OJBrit]

A lot of them wants that reset, it gives easy wins.

Let them have the wins in D if they so want it. I'd rather have the good racing in B even if it yields less wins.

 

[Rangeraus]

At least with Ghosting you will definitely have a Peace of mind out on the track in every race you may enter, and never have to worry about idiots ruining your time out on the track. This is a video game and you can't have real life racing in this game, you just can't have it and the only logic way is to have ghosting to put the end to these idiots.

It sounds like you need to join a racing league, there are a lot of good ones on Gran Turismo Sport

 

[BaareCZ]

Well race A this week is 4) right from go. People start shoving before T1 already, pushing each other into the wall, then diving full speed into T1. Then more shoving and pushing on the way to Quarry bend where more people end up in the wall. I've had races where I've gone from last to first before the cutting, just by avoiding the mayhem.

Absolutely agree. I did one race from the back and I moved up like 6 positions just coming from T1. But then everyone else I tried to pass just blocked or pushed or swerved or what have you. It was a joke. But then I accidentaly qualified which put me in pole. But since this race is a grid start, starting in pole is actually a massive disadvantage in this game. Even though I had a really good launch, I survived T1 by sheer luck. It was absolute mayhem behind me. And then, for the remainder of the race, I was just a target for the player behind me because they were trying to take me out every time they got close enough for a move. And they eventually succeeded on lap 2 at The Chase. But I just cut across the grass and rejoined still in the lead so they tried again at Murray's but couldn't quite get me so I made it across the finish line first. Needles to say they finished blue and I finished red. 😆 And this was, of course, an SR S lobby!!! That was the first and only race A I've done after qualifying. I love Bathurst but I will not be doing any more races A this week because I enjoy racing, not dodging missiles for 2 laps.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Let them have the wins in D if they so want it. I'd rather have the good racing in B even if it yields less wins.

I don't care about the wins either (well, not so much at least) it's the good racing I want.
But that's increasingly rare to get, because the invisible SR system and the turned off penalty system (I predict it will be like this from now on, so there's no bad penalty videos on YouTube for GT7) means that the majority of players are not racers but gamers with a win at all cost attitude.
So if you strip DR along SR the result is they drop down to a lobby where they win by several seconds, thus very quickly gaining both SR and DR and then presto, they are back and ready to do the same thing again.

 

[Famine]

At least with Ghosting you will definitely have a Peace of mind out on the track in every race you may enter, and never have to worry about idiots ruining your time out on the track.

... which is pretty much just time trial mode. You're calling it a "race", but there's nobody actually racing. Oh and this attitude that it's "your time out on the track" speaks volumes about your approach to races. It's shared time and you're sharing the track with other people. Apparently you can't share...

Again, this isn't an explanation of anything, you're just saying "this is right because it's right so it's right".

This is a video game and you can't have real life racing in this game, you just can't have it

This has less actual meaning than anything I've ever read.

GT is a simulation of racing. It's not "real life racing" and - with the possible exception of the Fanatec Esports GT Pro Series - no simulation of racing is "real life racing". It's still racing though, until someone comes along and eliminates it by demanding everyone is ghosted so he doesn't have to interact with them or learn any racecraft. Then it isn't.

and the only logic way is to have ghosting to put the end to these idiots.

If it's "the only logic way" you'll have no trouble sharing this logic... so it's pretty odd you've made no attempt to do so.

Ghosting everyone is not a logical solution to eliminating bad driving in a racing game, for two pretty obvious reasons. Firstly it doesn't actually eliminate bad driving, it just ignores it, and secondly it eliminates racing. Ghosting is a logical solution if you want bad driving and time trials, but not if you want to promote good driving and racing.

In fact you cannot eliminate bad driving in a racing game. You can't even eliminate it in real-life racing, despite time penalties, grid penalties, financial penalties, and the risk of expensive damage, injury, and death - no matter how much stock you put in stewarding. Drivers still misbehave and through either bad judgment, bad attitude, or just plain deliberate actions come into contact with each other and cause crashes and retirements (and injury, and death), and that's with all the real consequences for their actions. You only have to look at last year's motorsports-replacement program to see that when they don't have real consequences they get worse - and that's real racing drivers.

That means that your goal to "put the end to these idiots" is fundamentally flawed anyway, even if your solution to the problem was to destroy the core purpose of the action. You can't end the idiocy, you can only reduce it... and ignoring it isn't the way. Punishing it is.

Now, the fact is that GT isn't actually very good at this right now. The game only looks at the consequences of a collision, not the causes, which means that punishment depends on what happens after contact rather than because someone steamed into a corner at 50mph above the mean apex speed and skittled a load of cars; chances are the offender ends up off the track and any victim who sees it coming gets hit but stays on the track and gets punished for it. This is actually a little odd, as the ghosting at lower levels clearly can detect when someone's about to be a massive dick and ghosts them right through a crash they're about to cause... sometimes, so GT is obviously aware of a potential collision, but the penalty system only focuses on the aftermath.

It actually used to be not that bad, back in the days when you could cheat your way to high levels and lots of credits by exploiting the Nurburgring pit lane glitch. SR was a shared-fault system; in any collision between two (or more) cars, both (or more) would see an SR drop. This made a lot of people very cross, because they were being hit by idiots and seeing their SR fall, but not the other guy's SR even though it was happening. That was actually the original purpose of SR: it tracked how many incidents you were involved in. The idea was that if you drive badly you're involved in a lot of incidents so your SR stays low, but if you drive well you're involved in far fewer incidents and your SR only sometimes takes a hit from someone else's bad driving but mainly stays high.

But people only saw their SR falling from being hit by morons, so we never got to see the long-term benefits of that... plus it was far too easy to gain SR, and still is. If you run an FIA race clean you'll either be at or close to 90 regardless of what you started at, and that's back in the top category again (as Sport Mode matching is done by SR primarily).

In addition, penalties were very poorly implemented. You can drive like an absolute turd all race long, smashing through everyone and ruining a ton of other people's races, then either take the time penalty at the end or stamp on the brakes at the finish line to get rid of as much of it as you can. The "penalty zone" in FIA goes a way to addressing that by dropping offending vehicles down through the order during the race, away from the front runners, rather than allowing the idiots to be in among them all race long, but it isn't ideal (especially given the consequence-dependent penalty system which might penalise the wrong car).


Ultimately what needs to happen is a mix of all three things. There needs to be:

• Damage - ideally with credit cost for repairs, though this is unworkable with "loan" cars; this is the ultimate in "shared fault" punishment, with both (or more) cars involved in a collision damaged in one way or another. Cars with severe damage end up falling down the order and cannot impact on the upper end of the race result. Initially this will suck as you get damage from incidents that are not your fault, but over the medium and long term it will trend out so that bad drivers get more damage more often and good drivers get less damage less often.
• Averaged, Shared-fault SR - in any collision, both drivers should receive an SR knock, as the system should reflect the fact only that a collision occurred, not that someone caused it. However your SR should not depend on one race, either positively or negatively. It should be averaged out across a number of races, with more recent races weighted more than historic ones - and at least the last 50 races taken into account. It should also be much easier to lose SR than to gain it, perhaps by an order of magnitude. Clean racing should be the bare minimum expectation, so roughly +2 (starting everyone off at 50) for a clean race, with at least -5 per contact (with contact defined as being an impact above a certain G threshold... say 10-20G).
• Penalties - GT can clearly detect when a collision is about to happen, as it employs preventative ghosting at low DR when a collision is about to happen. The penalty system should use the moments leading up to a collision as part of its judgment, creating an automatic at-fault outcome for certain parameters - speed 200% of expected average within braking/corner zones, vehicle angle more than 30 degrees off expected driving line, vehicle off track less than three seconds before impact.

What there doesn't need to be is:

• Ghosting - this prevents any actual racing from happening, in a racing game. Although it's probably fair enough with lapped cars, even though it looks like crap.

I thoroughly expect your response to be another non-response, fair floating with weird syntax and a justification of ghosting being right because it's right to ghost so ghosting is the right thing, but I'll remind you slightly more forcefully of my previous comment:

If all you want to do is make the same posts over and over again with nothing fresh to offer and no engagement, you're better off making your own blog or yelling it into social media. This is a discussion forum.

... as the next time won't be a reminder at all.

 

[OJBrit]

(I predict it will be like this from now on, so there's no bad penalty videos on YouTube for GT7)

No but there will be thousands of lack of penalties/ poor racing standard videos on YT. I'd have thought that's more damaging for them as a racing game brand.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Off topic : @Famine definitely is a master of patience and persistence. All thumbs up.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Let them have the wins in D if they so want it. I'd rather have the good racing in B even if it yields less wins.

Yeah I had some donkey comment about my win rate, so I checked his and he was an A driver who played to sit at around 15K. I don't care about wins I just want good racess.

 

[CBH]

No but there will be thousands of lack of penalties/ poor racing standard videos on YT. I'd have thought that's more damaging for them as a racing game brand.

Yes there will be all that but you have to have a system that going to work, look I want good racing without ghosting and I really do, but you need something that is going to work so bring it into the game that will fix it.
We had the penalty system in for a number of years now, and nothing has been done to stop these idiots so bring in a system that works.

 

[Krypton78]

We had the penalty system in for a number of years now, and nothing has been done to stop these idiots so bring in a system that works.

My oppinion is, nothing can be done even with a working penalty system, when it would be the only factor to provide sportmanship. Idiots will stay idiots. The only way to clean out the idiots and force everyone else to stick harder to the rules/ be more cautious would be the combination of working penalty system + baning the idiots.

And even if, there would be still a risk of getting ruined because racing has in opposite to other games the speciality, that you have to have a certain level of skill to be able to be clean. Overtaking/ defending/ braking in slipstream/ letting the opponents enough space/ knowing whats going around in close field in the first laps are tough situations and I think the most incidents come out of lack of skill (mine included). That causes agression in the field, because the opponent thinks that its done by intention, and down goes everything from there on.

My conclusion is, that in the moment a more or less enjoyable racing (at least occasionally) is only possible either in communities (everybody know each other) or in higher sportmode lobbys (maybe from high A or low A+ onwards or so).

I really would like to know (only PD knows (hopefully)), if the penalty system performance is limited by the PS4-CPU and therefore the big chance of improvement is missed by releasing GT7 also on it.

 

[Norrin Radd]

My oppinion is, nothing can be done even with a working penalty system, when it would be the only factor to provide sportmanship. Idiots will stay idiots. The only way to clean out the idiots and force everyone else to stick harder to the rules/ be more cautious would be the combination of working penalty system + baning the idiots.

And even if, there would be still a risk of getting ruined because racing has in opposite to other games the speciality, that you have to have a certain level of skill to be able to be clean. Overtaking/ defending/ braking in slipstream/ letting the opponents enough space/ knowing whats going around in close field in the first laps are tough situations and I think the most incidents come out of lack of skill (mine included). That causes agression in the field, because the opponent thinks that its done by intention, and down goes everything from there on.

My conclusion is, that in the moment a more or less enjoyable racing (at least occasionally) is only possible either in communities (everybody know each other) or in higher sportmode lobbys (maybe from high A or low A+ onwards or so).

I really would like to know (only PD knows (hopefully)), if the penalty system performance is limited by the PS4-CPU and therefore the big chance of improvement is missed by releasing GT7 also on it.

I totally disagree.
If we ignore the very small percentage of players who just do bad things for fun (and even they wouldn't be a problem if done right) ONE way to improve things is to ensure that people are separated into groups of skill/cleanliness better AND that the system teaches players what is right and wrong.
Even at this systems best you can go from SR 1 to SR 99 in 5 games so there is nothing to stop dirty drivers having a few dirty games and then 1 or 2 clean ones to get back to 99. This isn't a hardware issue it's purely coding. Simple adding 2 strings 1 to limit the amount of points you can lose to say 10 per game and another to limit the amount you can gain to say 2 per game would fix this issue. Actually averaging your SR over the last X games would also be a solution.
Then we have teaching, again a simple method would be an annoying banner telling you what you did wrong, but at least the SR indicators telling you when you've been clean or dirty.

Yes perfection isn't possible, but a working system is if PD actually want to do it. I also think damage would be a good option as if done right people will be less likely to risk a dodgy move if they know it will ruin there game if it goes wrong.

 

[CBH]

I totally disagree.
If we ignore the very small percentage of players who just do bad things for fun (and even they wouldn't be a problem if done right) ONE way to improve things is to ensure that people are separated into groups of skill/cleanliness better AND that the system teaches players what is right and wrong.
Even at this systems best you can go from SR 1 to SR 99 in 5 games so there is nothing to stop dirty drivers having a few dirty games and then 1 or 2 clean ones to get back to 99. This isn't a hardware issue it's purely coding. Simple adding 2 strings 1 to limit the amount of points you can lose to say 10 per game and another to limit the amount you can gain to say 2 per game would fix this issue. Actually averaging your SR over the last X games would also be a solution.
Then we have teaching, again a simple method would be an annoying banner telling you what you did wrong, but at least the SR indicators telling you when you've been clean or dirty.

Yes perfection isn't possible, but a working system is if PD actually want to do it. I also think damage would be a good option as if done right people will be less likely to risk a dodgy move if they know it will ruin there game if it goes wrong.

SR 1 to SR 99 in 5 games and it should be a lot harder than that, or make it even harder still if players want damage in the game well give it a try.

I know a lot of members on here and they don't like me to talk about ghosting, well I am going to give up talking about it. So I just be talking about the Penalty System, and really PD need to do something about it. I really want to do the daily races but you read things on here about what goes on, and you say to myself why bother racing online when you have idiots, this is why I bring up about ghosting.

 

[Cherryturbo]

The all to apparent rise in anti social behaviour in Sport Mode has got me thinking about the causes and reasons behind these developments.

Firstly we have to consider why such activity takes place:

A) A certain percentage of players will load the game with the sole intention of disrupting online racing. I am not qualified to guess at why this would take place yet it clearly does in pretty much all online gaming. In normal circumstances, you would expect this o be a low percentage of active players.

B) Our game allows a vehicle to be deliberately removed from the track by another vehicle. The aim (if not A) above) is that the attacker may both promote themselves in the running order and in some cases remove the threat of competition by another competitor entirely. Game physics if you will.

Now the publishers of the game have no control whatsoever if players from A) above log in. It is therefore the second category we need to consider further.

As it stands, the current penalty system for deliberate “foul play” has potentially less impact on the attacker than it does the victim. It seems easier to remove an obstacle to progression rather than to navigate it. Whilst the attacker may receive some form of penalty, they quite often will still be higher in the running order after the penalty is served. In addition, the victim will have lost their track position. Depending on the type of race and the track, the victims race may be ruined entirely.

So why do these attacks occur? Well we all want to win, but some players want to win more than others. Why is this? Well it seems that “survival of the fittest” is alive and well in online gaming, no more so than in GT Sport . It is the ability to do so unfairly that requires attention.

We are all aware of both Driver Ranking (DR) and Sportsmanship Ranking (SR). It is my belief that the publishing of these rankings, primarily DR, seems to motivate people to try to climb the ziggurat as a way of demonstrating their dominance over fellow competitors. In real world racing, to my knowledge, no such ranking system exists. Yes there are different classes but to drive in them requires tests of competence either on a one-off basis or periodically. The only rankings in evidence are tables of results or points gained within championships.

So why is there a public ranking system?

People seem to view it as a measure of ability and as something to be protected.

It is this player categorisation that encourages people to improve/protect their standing. As we are playing a game, history shows that gamers will use every tool available to increase their standing if the game software allows it. If we think we are inhabiting a world full of “gentleman drivers” as opposed to “cutthroat gamers” then current evidence appears to confirm that we are sadly mistaken. The forums are full of proof that this behaviour also encourages usually fair minded people to become righteous vigilantes under the excuse of “they had it coming”. Do we really think that hardcore gamers will become instantly reformed?

I am not saying that rankings should be removed. What I am suggesting is that they be calculated by the publishers solely to provide equitable matching for online races. These “numbers” should not be made public and that includes API interrogation software. Yes, people will still try to win but only to celebrate that in itself rather than an increase in a fictitious ranking.

However, this will only work if there are both an equitable matching process and a robust penalty system that discourages poor on track behaviour. If such a penalty system exists then surely it would be in place by now? I am sure that PD/Sony would have implemented such a system if the software allowed it. It clearly doesn’t so we will always have some form of compromise system. Perhaps the developers/publishers could seek player input to any such system? Both now and in the future.

If the penalty system is flawed in some way then perhaps we should be considering what PD are able to do rather than something they seem to be unable to do.

In professional golf there has been talk for some time about today’s golfers overpowering current courses in terms of the distance the ball can be hit. Possible solutions include limiting distance by changing ball construction or by reducing club length.

Now this will likely be an unpopular suggestion. Should the speed of our cars be reduced allowing for track craftsmanship to be rewarded rather than just pure speed? It wouldn’t solve the problem by itself but it may mitigate the effects of dubious driving. Racing on the ragged edge now seems to be the default for daily and FIA races. Would limiting speed actually help the situation at all?

Apologies for the wall of text. Just thought I would contribute to the discussion.

 

[Krypton78]

Ultimately what needs to happen is a mix of all three things. There needs to be:

• Damage - ideally with credit cost for repairs, though this is unworkable with "loan" cars; this is the ultimate in "shared fault" punishment, with both (or more) cars involved in a collision damaged in one way or another. Cars with severe damage end up falling down the order and cannot impact on the upper end of the race result. Initially this will suck as you get damage from incidents that are not your fault, but over the medium and long term it will trend out so that bad drivers get more damage more often and good drivers get less damage less often.

I remember they tried damage in sportmode. It was not that much after launch, I think within a year or so. The races I joined were like warzones, the majority ended in the pits to repair. Eventually they updated it back after a few weeks, presumably because the player amount droped very fast. But maybe someone remembers better when exactly it was and how long they kept it.

What I wanted to point out was, that I think that nothing but (temporary) banning can help. Because the race ruiners-dont care if they land in drop splits or whererver, its just the urge to end up in the front, no matter what costs or who are the competitors. They play it like "Road Rash" (Sega Genesis, if anyone remembers that game).
They dont care about ending up off track or in the walls, they simply quit and try again in the next slot. So I think they wouldnt care about damage either.

If I think it through, in my oppinion PD is doing 2 things mainly wrong:

- They want to keep everyone in the game and they seem not to care that presumably many more good ones are leaving the game because of the idiots

- They dont teach anything. If the community evolved in the last 4 years so that the races got better, then it wasnt because of PD. The community educated itself with forums like this and Youtubers and so on. Maybe the live events had an positive effect, but I'm not very sure about it because I remember many races in the early events were someones whole event was destroyed because of getting ramed off-track and the guilty one came away with a silly 1 or 2 second penalty and could continue successfull his event (in the early events the finishing position of a race was automaticly the starting position of the next race).

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Just to add a couple observations:

There is a group of players who don't care about rankings and simply will do anything to win. The victory count is what they are after (and encouraged by the trophy for 92 victories), not DR or SR. DR resets are a tool to this group. Low DR/SR matches you with easier competition, and a high chance at winning.

Driving bad should not give you easier races, that's a fundamental flaw in the DR/SR/Penalty system. It's always been so that even a slight drop in SR to the 80-89 range, suddenly gives you far easier competition due to the quirks in matchmaking. It can be prevented with a simple tweak yet PD has never bother to fix it.

(What happens now is people get grouped by SR in 10 point ranges. Then sorted on DR. However if a higher SR tier, eg 90-99 range, lobby has spots left open, those with the highest DR in a lower tier SR range get picked to complete the room. So the highest DR lower SR players get to play with the lowest DR / higher SR players. This is a punishment for the lower DR players, not for the lower SR players)

Further down the SR ladder DR resets (and new accounts as well) are a tool for easier races. Although without resets people also simply quit when the chance of winning isn't there, lowering their DR that way. A few years ago there were people that pulled over at the finish line to suppress their DR without losing SR. However since losing SR is far quicker to get easier races people simply started quitting instead.

So SR and DR work in favor of bad driving. Which is a small silver lining for the really fast people, since those that will do anything to win rather hide among the slower ranks. Hence A+/S has the least trouble with dirty behavior, yet upcoming new drivers get to deal with bad fast rabbits all the time.

Plenty suggestions have been made for better SR and DR. SR as a measure of contacts over time, globally compared against everyone else. No up/down per race. A stat of incidents over time (with cars, walls, spin outs, off-track) sorted with everyone else instead of an individual up/down system.

Same for DR. Not up/down per race. No farming DR, no resets. DR should be reflecting your skill, measured in speed, and should really be an individual measure per track. Your average best pace for each track should be compared with everyone else (like a K' Speed score per track) and players should be sorted on that for selection. You can keep the overall DR points, but match on this hidden DR figure.

So with those changes, matchmaking will first pick the people with the lowest incidents rates over their past 50 hours of racing, then pick the people that are closest together in their avg pace for the track. Then when stepping a tier down (in incident rate groupings) it should fill the room (with spots open) with players with the lowest avg pace from the higher incident rate tier.

This makes it much harder to temporarily drop your 'SR', and you can't hide in lower paced rooms by dropping DR. Your superior speed will betray you.

Then you can start working on a penalty system inside individual races. Build a solid foundation first.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

Further down the SR ladder DR resets (and new accounts as well) are a tool for easier races. Although without resets people also simply quit when the chance of winning isn't there, lowering their DR that way.

Agree, speaking as one of those permanent "real" SR D racers who just can get close to winning it would be nice if reset players were somehow tagged so they did not compete with those of us just trying to get out of the basement. This mismatch has driven me away from online racing and I would suspect it has had the same affect on may other racers.

 

[JudegeBerry]

The fundamental restriction is it has to be automated. There is no human judgement. So it can never be perfect. The question is - does iRacing’s harsh penalty system result in more fair racing overall, even though it may be unfair on players at times? I’ve never played it so I don’t know.

for me, the worry with that is it de facto punishes clean players more unfairly than dirty ones. And that seems intuitively wrong.

It does result in more fair racing yes.

Iracing - no ghosting, shared fault, damage and takes ages to restore safety rating. Finally you don't get to race fast cars without a high enough safety rating - in short consequences follow actions.

This thread has now been running 3 years!

 

[Norrin Radd]

This thread has now been running 3 years!

Yes but the problems haven't always been exactly the same. Far too close with no fix in sight.

 

[MCL1974]

I have not done a daily race in over a year but had a good qualifying time at Fuji and like the track. so thought "what the hell"...
first race C went fine, third on the grid, ended second after the guy in second punted the car in first. lots of angry people in post race. then two disconnections, then punted at the first corner and punted again at the second corner, then a disco again in lap 2 and finally starting in third and quit myself after being hit about 5 times in a single lap and ending up facing the wrong way. Remembered why i did not do daily races anymore....

 

[Norrin Radd]

Since I was stupid enough to get reset, let's just see how long it takes to get back to 99.
Starting 3,000 and 1
1) 5,862 and 52. CRB and back to B in ONE game, that will teach me.
2)7,127 and 69, another CBR, but 17 rather than 51 gain that makes sense.
3) 8,516 and 86, CRB is 17 apart from the bonus you get for being considered really dirty???????? Anyhoo 3 games for E to S and if I can keep it clean 4 games for 99
4) Bad race no fastest lap or CRB, but 9,789 and 99 so virtually B/S after 4 games.
Stats wise it's great, 4 poles, 4 wins and 3 fastest laps.

 

[jrbabbitt]

I noticed the damndest thing about the current SR point penalty drops, if you are in a daily race and you hit someone with your front bumper / fenders you will see a drop in your SR points noted as a RED letter. Now this is the kicker, in a standing start like the Daily Race A and there is someone slow on the start you CANNOT avoid v hitting that racer and therefore you get dinged on SR points.
I've noticed that a lot of entrants to DR-A will have TCS on to what ever they think but it bogs them down on start, I honestly dropped 10 SR pts on just that I was forced to hit the person in front of me, that sucks bigtime.