PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Ofuscor]

I won't. I just hope you won't take my reply personal either.


The worldwide player base is big, & dividing it is therefore no problem. If a certain region is small, then that may only cause a problem in region specific events, & I'd rather compete on track with a handful other relatively clean racers than a full grid of dirty drivers. The other answer is to simply not have region specific events, which I'd be happy with as a trade off for races being cleaner. I never had a problem finding Clean Shuffle rooms to race in in GT5.




That's not a problem in any of my ideas, but is always a problem where the definition of clean is not explained. PD have no rules or regulations as to what constitutes "clean" (apart from the two severely lacking etiquette videos). Whenever I hosted "Clean" rooms on GT5/6, I'd text everyone who entered the room my definition of clean so that there was no misunderstanding. Likewise, if the definition of clean was clearly explained before entering a room, people would have very little excuse for not sticking to it.




Again, that's not a problem with my ideas as I already acknowledged that we would still get the odd troll here & there (nowhere have I claimed that my idea would result in 100% clean races). Any trolls would be taken care of by 1) people putting "it" onto their PSN Block lists, & 2) reporting "it" to the game dev along with an uploaded replay so that they could deal with them. The more trolls I put on my blocked list in GT5, the cleaner & cleaner my rooms got as a result.




You're misrepresenting my argument here (that's what a Strawman is), as nowhere have I said that all public lobbies should be free of penalties. In fact in post 241 in this thread said that I'd like to see; "...stewards AI programs in racing sims that actually act somewhat like real life stewards & give out real world penalties...". And, in post 424 I said I'd, like to see, "...positional penalties at the end of the race, & DSQ's...". What I'm against is automatic penalty systems dishing out fantasy penalties.




What's considered clean or dirty varies between different types of motorsport. Rallycross can be very aggressive, & although the BTCC is considered a non contact sport; I can't remember a driver ever being penalized for deliberately bump passing another. The FIA backs lots of different types of motorsports with differing levels of cleanliness, so I see no reason why they wouldn't want to do that in a video game; especially when it would result in cleaner races for those who want it.

My idea isn't a single one, but a composite of ideas. As I said in post 590 "My answer would be to have a whole series of measures designed into a sim from the ground up to minimise the problem to the point that 99.9% of the races would be devoid of dirty drivers who make deliberate contact. Some of these points I have mentioned here in this thread, some I have not." Again, my ideas are not specific to Gran Turismo or GT Sport, but to sim racing in general.

Glad we can keep it civil .

I believe some of your ideas are utopic at least for the time being.

For example, AI stewards. They sound incredibly complex having to mimic real world stewards. I don't have coding skills but it sounds way overly complicated almost like you would create almost a sentient AI just for simracing judging. I am exagerating but not by much. Real stewards give controversial calls sometimes.

Then comes the part were you have to put that massive AI into a program and not make it slow down to a crawl. Sure you can make the judging less complex, but there I think we would be compromising your vision and results.

The way I see it, the judging needs to be more complex than what we have. But more than complex it must be efficiently coded to achieve results. But it won'be perfect.

How are things judged server side? Client side? There are problems and advantages with both.

Ideas+X=99.9% clean racing

Your AI judges are a bit like Vision Gran Turismo cars. They look great, perform great, the engineering? Not quite there, so they remain fantasy cars.

Even if Fia endorses racing where a bit more contact is allowed. I don't think they would ever look even a little bit like a dirty sport room would look like. Don't forget that we have some guys who are straight up rammers and serial blockers without fear of injury and no car repair costs.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The clients handle the prediction of where everyone most likely is to present it to the user all at the same time corrected for the time frame the user is in. PD's philosophy apparently is that you are responsible for how you react to the data on your screen. If you hit the laggy car you get a penalty, even though on their side of the world you never made contact. Which is fine if the forward prediction didn't mess up so often making contact a lot worse than it would be. Also the assignment of blame is often wrong so another car lagging into you can give you a penalty for doing nothing wrong.

With simple communication of observed contact between the clients you can fix the discrepancies in the penalties. Yet fixing the prediction algorithms to work better in real time is a headache and once your console has registered a hit that affects you car, it can't take it back!

This is why I dodge people by a few feet and not a few inches. Even more space for a driver with low internet speeds. Really laggy cars I have to presume where they are going to be and pass cautiously while ignoring false open doors on the apex.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This is why I dodge people by a few feet and not a few inches. Even more space for a driver with low internet speeds. Really laggy cars I have to presume where they are going to be and pass cautiously while ignoring false open doors on the apex.

Indeed, and sometimes it screws up so bad you end up guessing at where the car disappeared to before you find yourself suddenly going 480 kph off the track! Some fail saves would be nice PD, cars don't go 500kph.

(That was my worst race yesterday, imo I deserved more penalties, just not the ones I did get)

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Oh well screwed again, I'm guess he didn't know the track as his excessive braking earned me 15 sec of penalties.


I was expecting him to let go off the brakes yet he didn't, that's not a 120 kph corner by far, not even close in the Miura P400 Bertone I'm driving. My gear indicator already stopped blinking at 190 kph, i.e. already going slow. Plus I can't swerve in that oldie as it's hardly possible to get it through corners while being smooth. Then he brakes too heavy again and the next car squeezing in hits him, stalls in front of me, can't avoid him, and I get the penalty again lol. Dropped to SR.80 from just that.

I switched to the GT40 after, that one can avoid these kind of problems.

 

[Canada_25]

Alright...Slightly touching the back still throws 10 second penalties.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

It looks like it's going to be another night of dealing with a broken penalty system

The car behind me gets punted, scrapes me and knocks the car in front of me. I get 5 sec penalty... How am I supposed to avoid that!

 

[vvise]

@Sven Jurgens saw you in a race tonight said hi but you didn't reply. The penalties were strange tonight... I absolutely killed a guy at the end of the straight in my first race gained a lot of positions from it and got no penalty. I got away with murder, I'll upload a gif tomorrow.

Yesterday I got 10s for the smallest tap in manufactures so maybe this is karma making it up.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@Sven Jurgens saw you in a race tonight said hi but you didn't reply. The penalties were strange tonight... I absolutely killed a guy at the end of the straight in my first race gained a lot of positions from it and got no penalty. I got away with murder, I'll upload a gif tomorrow.

Yesterday I got 10s for the smallest tap in manufactures so maybe this is karma making it up.

I'm usually reviewing the instant replay right after I finish, and browsing this site right before the start, like now. SO sometimes I miss chat messages. A delayed hi! I just did a race from pole in the Raptor after getting disconnected in a previous race. Now trying the F40, starting 2nd.

Edit: was in the lead in lap 4, got punted in Mulsanne to 4th, finished 2nd. Oh well, someone else got lucky.

Here's one more fine example of the penalty system

I get punted into another car, receive 3 sec and red rating for the race (-1 SR)
Here I actually got lucky as the car I got punted into was the only real competition, easily won the race although I was hoping for another close battle. The game should have ghosted me when I got punted.

 

[Barry R]

The system really does need looked at, like the above clips... some one spun sideways across the track (on a straight wtf) on monza... at 120 odd mph you cant really go anywhere when your so close.... so they hit me.. put me off and i get a penalty. Its comical!

 

[vvise]

@Sven Jurgens saw you in a race tonight said hi but you didn't reply. The penalties were strange tonight... I absolutely killed a guy at the end of the straight in my first race gained a lot of positions from it and got no penalty. I got away with murder, I'll upload a gif tomorrow.

Yesterday I got 10s for the smallest tap in manufactures so maybe this is karma making it up.

RIP

6th to 2nd with one simple murder. No penalty somehow.

EDIT: actually watching this again, it's a double homicide... I pinball the first guy into a second car as well.

I found footage of me in the cockpit

 

[cleanLX]

I wonder if this is repeatable/gameable...
As long as the car you kill, in turn kills another during the same "event", the original murder goes unchecked...?

Might explain a lot of what we've been seeing...

Now... who wants to be the dirty dog to test it... ???

 

[vvise]

I wonder if this is repeatable/gameable...
As long as the car you kill, in turn kills another during the same "event", the original murder goes unchecked...?

Might explain a lot of what we've been seeing...

Now... who wants to be the dirty dog to test it... ???

"silver F40 in corner pocket"

 

[Thestick999]

I think this game is riddled with bugs and bots now. Over the last 3 days I’ve gone from B.B. ratings to D.E. Then back to C.C. And in the last race I got shunted from behind and I got the penalty! Then the car that shunted me overtook me by shunting from the side and sending me off in the 2nd lap. I clawed my way back to finish just behind him on his bumper with “Penalty” flashing over his car only to find I’m the only car in the whole race to get a penalty??? What the actual ****?!?!?! This game is ****ed now. The penalty system has ruined it and the bots are making it worse. Think I’ll buy an Xbox and play Forza instead.

 

[xxxman1]

Got 10s in my last manufacturer race

 

[Sven Jurgens]

It looks like the penalty triggers when both of the SRT's front wheels go over the white line after you two made contact. All these theories of who hits who where and it all comes down to a rule so simple it's hard to believe. Touch any car that goes off track in the next 3 seconds (or 4) and you get a penalty.

 

[xxxman1]

It looks like the penalty triggers when both of the SRT's front wheels go over the white line after you two made contact. All these theories of who hits who where and it all comes down to a rule so simple it's hard to believe. Touch any car that goes off track in the next 3 seconds (or 4) and you get a penalty.

I was the one who didn’t involve in the T1 incident but I was the only one got penalty. Ridiculous

 

[xxxman1]

Got 10s in my last manufacturer race

Yet got another 10s penalty at today fia nation race

 

[Famine]

Got 10s in my last manufacturer race

Overtaking under yellows.

Yet got another 10s penalty at today fia nation race

Car-to-car contact resulting in the other car leaving the circuit.

Both harsh, but consistent to how the penalty system behaves.

 

[xxxman1]

Car-to-car contact resulting in the other car leaving the circuit.

Both harsh, but consistent to how the penalty system behaves.

Famine, do you mean I contacted with that trophy? Sorry if I misunderstand you.

You are right. The system is consistent and I was consistently involved in these situations and got 10s penalty from nowhere.

 

[TJC_69]

Had no idea that the yellow flag rule was acted upon with the penalty system. I thought in game it was only an advisory at this point. A mere nice touch to the game for more immersion I thought...

You learn something new everyday 👍

 

[Famine]

Famine, do you mean I contacted with that trophy? Sorry if I misunderstand you.

You did.

Throughout your braking you were decelerating at a fairly consistent 47km/h per second - basically just over 10km/h lost per quarter second (0.25s). At the moment of impact you suddenly decelerate at five times that: 212km/h per second, losing 7km/h in 0.033s, then another 10km/h in the next 0.1s. After impact you continued to decelerate at about 47km/h per second.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I was the one who didn’t involve in the T1 incident but I was the only one got penalty. Ridiculous

It is indeed. It also seems that's it's only the last car that touched a car that goes off road gets a penalty. If you play snooker with cars you're like fine as long as the white ball stays on the track.

The other video you got the penalty for contacting the car that spun out and got slowed by bumping the car in front of him. Nothing you could have done, you were already full on the brakes. The yellow car corrected too much on the grass.

A yellow flag over take is 3 seconds, not 10. That's broken as well as sometimes you can't avoid it unless you completely stop, or the yellow flag flashes so briefly while side by side with another car it's just the bad luck of timing. I've also had a yellow flag penalty for avoiding a car that bumped into the car in front of him. I had the choice of running into him or go wide, go wide was 3 sec penalty since the yellow was up. Hitting him would likely have been fine as I would have just shoved him back against the mess in front of him.

You did not change positions during the brief yellow in the Manufacturer's, yellow flag penalty had no involvement. It was the two front wheels of the SRT going over the line.

 

[Famine]

You did not change positions during the brief yellow in the Manufacturer's

Are you sure? Given that I've just broken his speed down frame by frame to spot the moment of increased deceleration and thus impact?

Are you absolutely sure?

I mean... really sure?

100%, guaranteed, cast-iron, copper-bottomed sure?

Only... It's the sort of thing I'd look at in great detail before I said it...

So are you absolutely sure?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Are you sure? Given that I've just broken his speed down frame by frame to spot the moment of increased deceleration and thus impact?

Ah, well spotted. My ageing eyes. Those cars he passed could still have been deemed part of the 'wreck' as you don't get a penalty for those. It has always been 3 sec for yellow flag passing afaik. 10 sec really is for touching a car that goes off road.

The one car he passes is the one ghosted and turned around, that one doesn't count for sure. The other is at the far side of the chain reaction and gets pushed off road. No clue what the game exactly sees as part of the collision yet in this case it was a 4 car collision.

No I need to clean my glasses, how did I not spot a 12 turning into a 10...

 

[xxxman1]

Are you sure? Given that I've just broken his speed down frame by frame to spot the moment of increased deceleration and thus impact?

View attachment 754786

Are you absolutely sure?

View attachment 754787

I mean... really sure?

View attachment 754788

100%, guaranteed, cast-iron, copper-bottomed sure?

View attachment 754789

Only... It's the sort of thing I'd look at in great detail before I said it...

View attachment 754790

So are you absolutely sure?

View attachment 754791

Ah, well spotted. My ageing eyes. Those cars he passed could still have been deemed part of the 'wreck' as you don't get a penalty for those. It has always been 3 sec for yellow flag passing afaik. 10 sec really is for touching a car that goes off road.

The one car he passes is the one ghosted and turned around, that one doesn't count for sure. The other is at the far side of the chain reaction and gets pushed off road. No clue what the game exactly sees as part of the collision yet in this case it was a 4 car collision.

No I need to clean my glasses, how did I not spot a 12 turning into a 10...

Thanks @Famine @Sven Jurgens👍👍👍

This is the reason why I like GTP. Always learn something and understand the system more by reading GTP post. The way of Famine explanations just as detail as a textbook reference. I like it though I don’t think I can do anything differently in the same situation. I thought I was penalised as I touched the SRT before. It shows I know the system not well.

I am looking for a possible solution (instead of stopping) to avoid it? May I?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Thanks @Famine @Sven Jurgens👍👍👍

This is the reason why I like GTP. Always learn something and understand the system more by reading GTP post. The way of Famine explanations just as detail as a textbook reference. I like it though I don’t think I can do anything differently in the same situation. I thought I was penalised as I touched the SRT before. It shows I know the system not well.

I am looking for a possible solution (instead of stopping) to avoid it? May I?

You can:
- Not qualify and start last, my favorite
- Keep steering to the right trying to avoid the car coming at you on the radar
- Hit him again on the other side to prevent him from going off track
- Punt another car into him to take the blame

Or just accept you will get screwed now and then. I don't do the FIA races as you only get one shot. Lots of dailies balances out the ones were you got screwed. I just had a brake check on Monza for that long first right you do not need to brake for. He simply resumed driving the same after taking over my momentum. I get 5 sec penalty and dropped to 84 SR for that.... There were a couple dirty drivers bumping on the straight, no penalty yet it does substact more SR every time they bump into you. Next race,. clean race bonus, no penalty, only +2 SR. The system is so unbalanced.

 

[xxxman1]

You can:
- Not qualify and start last, my favorite

I know you are expert on this

I accept it. It is what it is. I didn’t quit the race once I was blessed with the penalty system and did try hard to race till the end. But 10s in FIA race for these situations did ruin my chance to have a better finishing and some points. I hope PD reads GTP and collects our views to improve the system. Do they? I am not sure.

 

[Chevy Heavy]

I don't know why they can't negate the 10 sec penalty for tapping a car that is already sideways. It's not like you caused them to get out of shape and most of the time there is no way to avoid contact. I've picked up a few of these penalties over the last couple times I've raced and I just shake my head and say WTF. On Dragon Trail last night a car scrapes the wall coming out of the bus stop which causes him to rapidly decelerate while I nail the chicane perfectly and hit him as there is no way to avoid him. So I am left crawling with a penalty which essentially killed my race.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Good timing that I saw this thread title. I have my own contribution to share:

Um, a bit harsh, dotcha think?

 

[xxxman1]

I don't know why they can't negate the 10 sec penalty for tapping a car that is already sideways. It's not like you caused them to get out of shape and most of the time there is no way to avoid contact.

It is a super difficult logic for PD guy to program it. Even harder than getting the Apollo to the moon.

Good timing that I saw this thread title. I have my own contribution to share:



Um, a bit harsh, dotcha think?

You tapped the front car bumper corner. It was a push as the system doesn’t allow bumper-to-bumper flight. Know your feel mate