PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[ROCKET JOE]

First of all guys, let me say I don't need any more discussion about ghosting. Aren't we trying to find solutions that improve the game, not make an even bigger joke out of it ? As for me I don't want ghosting ... and I don't want spawning. In a close-to-fair grid I'd prefer driving on my own every day, and live with a Macao pile up every now and then !

@DanSHW
Sorry for asking again mate, I've probably missed something ...
Which are the ( your ) criteria for drivers to get a low-power-penalty - and how should the game decide that ?

 

[Famine]

Damage in a big no in Sports Mode races, because there will be carnage out on the track.

So what?

See, in a sentence like this the "because" splits the premise from the reasoning that proves the premise. That means you need to provide reasoning that proves the premise. Your premise, "Damage in a big no" (I assume "is" rather than "in"), needs reasoning that proves it. "There will be carnage out on the track" isn't reasoning, it's just a statement - and a speculative one at that (which is likely to be true initially, but will also prove less true over time; the FIA events have damage and I haven't seen it active in eight months) - that doesn't appear to be in any way related to the premise.

The sentence needs to be "[Thing] will be bad because it will result in [Bad Thing]". Like "[Permanent Ghosting] will be bad because it will result in [drivers literally being unable to race anyone, anywhere, in a racing game]".


You say if there's damage, there'll be "carnage out on the track" (which ignores the fact that there is damage, and there isn't carnage). So what? Why is that a bad thing? Show me why it's bad. It's one of the risks of real-life motorsport, so why shouldn't it be a risk of virtual motorsport too? You know what else is a risk of real-life motorsport? Idiot stewards handing out unfair and unjustified penalties to the wrong drivers...

 

[ROCKET JOE]

So what? ... You know what else is a risk of real-life motorsport? Idiot stewards handing out unfair and unjustified penalties to the wrong drivers...

You are involved in RL motorsport a lot, you're an experience monster here 👍 compared to me, so would you please tell me how many penalties ( deriving from track incidents ) are handed out on average during one season of a RL racing series with let's say 15 races / 20 drivers ?

 

[DanSHW]

@DanSHW
Sorry for asking again mate, I've probably missed something ...
Which are the ( your ) criteria for drivers to get a low-power-penalty - and how should the game decide that ?

Ideally it would be done on actual SR rating, say 1% power reduction for every 5 SR points below 99, but given the game doesn't declare your actual points, just the grade, it would probably have to be done on that, say 5% power reduction for every SR grade below S.

I'd love them to have a perfect penalty system, but short of having a proper AI system learning from real human stewards, it's not going to happen. Firewalling off different SR levels would be nice, but it's still not going to motivate the dirty drivers to drive clean.

 

[Dmac72]

Given that drivers who intentionally cause contact will have more incidents than those who avoid hitting others, harsher penalties against any and all contact at all would hit them harder than it would those who try to drive clean races. If SR is averaged over time (1 hour, 2 hours) or SR is entirely dependant on consecutive clean races (my preference) with DR increase only possible from SR S, then the risk of contact with other players would outweigh any potential reward. Drivers would then be in a position to decide if they want avoid contact and progress up the rankings, or stay at the low SR rating that not being sporting deserves.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I tapped someone in the final corner of brand in the braking zone and they extended the exit and went off. Normally I'm sure I would get a 5s penalty, but the game didn't give me one. It's possible PD tweaked the time that you're vulnerable to these kinds of penalties.

I've been on the receiving end at least three times yesterday without the perp getting a penalty. Once in Druids

I didn't see it coming cause of the laggy car in front but off I went. The other car must have gotten SR Down since I kept the clean race bonus, yet no penalty for some reason.

In Graham hill bend, bumped from behind ended up in the grass and in Stirling's again bumped from behind to put me wide into the grass. Something is more broken now with the penalties or the track limits for penalties are weird on Brands.

Less penalties is not a good thing as demonstrated on Kyoto a few weeks back.

 

[Dmac72]

I've been on the receiving end at least three times yesterday without the perp getting a penalty. Once in Druids

I didn't see it coming cause of the laggy car in front but off I went. The other car must have gotten SR Down since I kept the clean race bonus, yet no penalty for some reason.

In Graham hill bend, bumped from behind ended up in the grass and in Stirling's again bumped from behind to put me wide into the grass. Something is more broken now with the penalties or the track limits for penalties are weird on Brands.

Less penalties is not a good thing as demonstrated on Kyoto a few weeks back.

Turning into the Gran Turismo Mario Kart edition.

 

[gtpierre]

You know what else is a risk of real-life motorsport? Idiot stewards handing out unfair and unjustified penalties to the wrong drivers...

Since Race B is Brands Hatch this week, what's your take on the penatly caldarelli received at Brands Hatch few weeks ago ?
This is what im talking about at 20min50s(can't enclose the video)

(He got a 60s stop and go penalty for this...)

 

[Famine]

You are involved in RL motorsport a lot

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I haven't raced and I don't even leave the house, much less go to races

Since Race B is Brands Hatch this week, what's your take on the penatly caldarelli received at Brands Hatch few weeks ago ?

I don't know who that is really, but the incident seems to be caused by the #563 Lamborghini trying to slot into the gap behind the #66 Audi and not realising that the #55 Audi was already there.

It depends on what Blancpain GT World Challenge rules say though. It varies series-to-series, race-to-race and track-to-track. There's commonly an "overlap" rule written in somewhere, but that's usually a fairly nebulous matter. My own personal standard is not to place your car where another one already is (so that's literally any overlap) or will inevitably be (so if a guy has missed his braking spot and is steaming up the inside locked up, he's inevitably going to be on the inside and I won't turn into his path; the accident will be his fault for screwing up the braking, but I'd still be out of the race whoever's fault it was), and on that basis the Lamborghini is in the wrong. Blancpain's rules, and its stewards, may disagree, and if that's what the rules say then so be it - the drivers all know that going into the race and they'll have had the briefing.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I haven't raced and I don't even leave the house, much less go to races ...

Huh I'm sorry - no idea what made me think so !

 

[Dorofint]

Have you already played Goodwood this week? I like the track very well, especially because she forgives few mistakes. Whoever gets into the grass usually loses a lot of time. I like that because tracklimits are not a problem. Who exaggerates at the tracklimits punishes himself. But this property causes other problems. These problems are caused by drivers returning to the track after a pitstop or trip to the meadow. I got penalized by these drivers in almost every race one or more 5 seconds. They simply drive on the track without paying attention to the following traffic. Due to the many fast corners of the track, I often can not avoid it without turning myself into the grass. So I only have the choice between a much time-consuming trip to the botany or a 5 second penalty because of the touch. In some cases, I was just able to prevent a collision and was then rammed from behind. In this case, once again fails the penalty system. It does not recognize that the ruthless on the route returning drivers are the cause of the collision. At least at the exit from the pitlane, the program could introduce a white line and check whether a driver crosses the white line or not. Who crosses them and thus recklessly returns to the track should get a time penalty. Sorry but that annoys me simply because this behavior makes a basically wonderful track a nightmare.

 

[Dmac72]

Pretty much avoiding sport mode now because of the driving standards and penalties.
Goodwood with an E Type Jag in VR is huge fun though.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Goodwood has a weird pit entry and exit. To enter simply aim full speed at the wall. A bit like this

The exit points your car into traffic, if you don't steer hard right auto drive will cause an accident. You're in the way regardless as the high speed first bit of the turn is no good for side by side entry.

Then you have the penalty zone in front of two high speed rights, both with only one line again. It's bad enough at the start when people try to door bang through there 3 wide, yet the penalty zone makes sure to repeat that scenario a couple more times during the race.

Next, what out for people re-joining from the grass. According to the penalty system, they have the right of way. To top it off that lovely chicane. Ghosting isn't quit quick enough when a car in front of you clips either wall, plus people going wide before the chicane still try to enter it at full speed with compromised tires coming from a bad angle. Of course they also have the right of way according to the penalty system.

The dancing car in the pit makes up for it all. Is there actually someone stuck in there or is it simply something going wrong on the other clients?

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Goodwood has a weird pit entry and exit. To enter simply aim full speed at the wall.

The first time I approached it I thought I was about to drive into the VIP seats.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Hey everybody, enjoy the daily races as much as possible just the way they are, as the times will be changing ...
I foresee a new dimension of track brutality by the end of this year. Why ?
LE MANS '66
Henry Ford II. : "Go ahead Carroll ! Go to war !" Carroll Shelby : "We're lighter, we're faster.
If that don't work we're nastier !"
Since these guys are legend their influence will be massive !

The lesson I got to learn : I'm not made for racing !

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Delete !

 

[sundaydriving]

Goodwood has a weird pit entry and exit. To enter simply aim full speed at the wall. A bit like this

The exit points your car into traffic, if you don't steer hard right auto drive will cause an accident. You're in the way regardless as the high speed first bit of the turn is no good for side by side entry.

Then you have the penalty zone in front of two high speed rights, both with only one line again. It's bad enough at the start when people try to door bang through there 3 wide, yet the penalty zone makes sure to repeat that scenario a couple more times during the race.

Next, what out for people re-joining from the grass. According to the penalty system, they have the right of way. To top it off that lovely chicane. Ghosting isn't quit quick enough when a car in front of you clips either wall, plus people going wide before the chicane still try to enter it at full speed with compromised tires coming from a bad angle. Of course they also have the right of way according to the penalty system.

The dancing car in the pit makes up for it all. Is there actually someone stuck in there or is it simply something going wrong on the other clients?

"Like a glove." Ace Ventura would be proud.

As for the pit glitch I think the clients are out of sync. My guess is that the maintenance is for this.

 

[Dmac72]

I think I finally came to the conclusion/realisation that it is not only a racing community that frequents GT sport, but also a gaming community. One is no better or worse than the other but the mindset is frequently different. With the current penalty, ranking and matchmaking structure there will inevitably be conflict.
Something I don’t need in my very limited and therefor precious leisure time.

 

[johnmalfroid]

i just did a race at 21.50 dragon trail .
driver before me . slipt out . get ghosted . bud still hit me . and i get a 3.second penalty .
land in true dirty drivers . another penalty . ok this one i my fault . and got a 30 sr drop back .
this is realy not fair . i pay for this game . put a lot time in it . and than this . i hope some one can help were i cane complaine somewhere . i want my sr points back

 

[ROCKET JOE]

i just did a race at 21.50 dragon trail .
driver before me . slipt out . get ghosted . bud still hit me . and i get a 3.second penalty .
land in true dirty drivers . another penalty . ok this one i my fault . and got a 30 sr drop back .
this is realy not fair . i pay for this game . put a lot time in it . and than this . i hope some one can help were i cane complaine somewhere . i want my sr points back

You won't get them back. SR ups and downs are part of the game design. Many people aren't pleased ( and rightly so ) with how PEN / SR / DR work, there's no other chance though but start over again atm.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I think I finally came to the conclusion/realisation that it is not only a racing community that frequents GT sport, but also a gaming community.

Indeed. It baffles me why the gamers are still playing this game when their tactics would be psychopathic behavior in the real world and get them mugged at a live tournament. You'd think that this game would be too restrictive and stale to keep them interested.

 

[kilesa4568]

I've just started sport mode (again) and think the penalties are alright, give or take.

Two 3 second penalties (not my fault!) in 14 race C's so it isn't a lot of evidence to go on but if that's going to my ratio, I can't grumble with it.

Those penalty zones (finally lost my virginity) are a tough but easily learned lesson anyway. Back to bumper view with its rear view mirror.



👍

 

[De_Breuk]

The way SR is impacted by short races is not ok. I just went from 99SR to 31SR in 3 daily race B races. In race 1 I dropped from S to A, race 2 from A tot B and then from B to C. Because of this you get matched up with less clean drivers every race which makes it even harder to have a clean race.

 

[ARTAsean]

The way SR is impacted by short races is not ok. I just went from 99SR to 31SR in 3 daily race B races. In race 1 I dropped from S to A, race 2 from A tot B and then from B to C. Because of this you get matched up with less clean drivers every race which makes it even harder to have a clean race.

If you went from 99/S to A in one single race, you are the less clean driver.

 

[DanSHW]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but it's Dragon Trail Seaside, think I've lost more SR in that chicane than any other corner in the game.

 

[Dorofint]

Indeed. It baffles me why the gamers are still playing this game when their tactics would be psychopathic behavior in the real world and get them mugged at a live tournament. You'd think that this game would be too restrictive and stale to keep them interested.

I chatted with some of these players. I can tell you, they are 100% sure to do it right. Many are convinced that other players who complain are wimps that are not able to drive properly. It is easy to see that many of them know very little about real racing and have a bad racecraft. Their idea about the behavior in the race they often have from arcade games such as NFS or short superficial reports on TV or youtube. We all know these reports that do not really talk about racing but more about accidents and curiosities in races. In my homeland, the TV news reports only about racing when there was a spectacular accident. Sometimes their ideas also come from Hollywood movies. I think we all know how unrealistic and lurid films like Days of Thunder, the Fast and Furious series or Driven are. So if you look at the level of knowledge of these players their behavior is not really surprising.
Basically, these players should play arcade games. But this genre is just weakening enormously. The last NFS parts were bad and many other games can not fill the gap. Basically, there should be something like the old Grip parts. Something that in principle is an arcade game but looks realistic and includes real race and supersort cars. There, these players could let off steam and have their success. But this will be difficult because many car manufacturers will not grant licenses for this type of game anymore.

 

[Dmac72]

PD, like any other company, wants to appeal to the widest possible customer base. That includes NFS arcade style game players as well as those who want clean racing.
That could by why the penalty system is designed the way it is. To avoid discouraging them.
Also worth remembering that throughout the history of GT the “dive bomb” method of passing using other cars as a brake was VERY common. It is just less acceptable online.

 

[Dorofint]

PD, like any other company, wants to appeal to the widest possible customer base. That includes NFS arcade style game players as well as those who want clean racing.
That could by why the penalty system is designed the way it is. To avoid discouraging them.
Also worth remembering that throughout the history of GT the “dive bomb” method of passing using other cars as a brake was VERY common. It is just less acceptable online.

Absolutely right. Divebombing and wallriding have a long tradition in GT. PD wanted to solve the problem of different player types in the multiplayer with their DR and SR ratings. As we all know, this does not work as well as planned. We have discussed this in detail here in recent months. I'm not sure who the right players are for the game. On the one hand, the game attracts simulation player with his good physics. But on the other hand, many elements are not really tailored to this target group. Basically, GT Sport is in its core more of a game for arcade and casual players. These players get the basic gameplay and car selection what they want. For the less suitable elements to this group, such as the physics system, driving aids are available to defuse this as far as possible. We also see that the penalty system has been tailored more and more to this target group.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I chatted with some of these players. I can tell you, they are 100% sure to do it right. Many are convinced that other players who complain are wimps that are not able to drive properly. It is easy to see that many of them know very little about real racing and have a bad racecraft. ...

True.
Similar experiences here since the GT6 era.

PD, like any other company, wants to appeal to the widest possible customer base. That includes NFS arcade style game players as well as those who want clean racing.
That could by why the penalty system is designed the way it is. To avoid discouraging them. ...

True again, I'd say.

However, I presume every single part of the game is on purpose. So I'd like to think PD's videos about track behavior are more than just alibi, they're what Kaz wants Sport Mode to be, as well as an ( hopeless ) attempt to educate the uneducated.

... PD wanted to solve the problem of different player types in the multiplayer with their DR and SR ratings. As we all know, this does not work as well as planned. ...

True again.
There's been a lot of speculation going on here on the planet long before the game was available and we all expected SR / DR to provide proper matchmaking iirc ... sadly that's an epic fail to this day.
There's no need imo to exclude any type of player, separating them when it comes to OL racing is extremely desirable though.

371 days since my last Sport Mode appearance !

Now look here :

Will put this thread on the pile with the rest of them.

Check the date ! Who would have thought this thread would last for so long. And tell me why ...

I've just started sport mode (again) and think the penalties are alright, ...

Hey John, hope getting back into racing is enjoyable. GL 👍 !

 

[Dmac72]

True.
Similar experiences here since the GT6 era.



True again, I'd say.

However, I presume every single part of the game is on purpose. So I'd like to think PD's videos about track behavior are more than just alibi, they're what Kaz wants Sport Mode to be,

Or what he wanted it to be 3 or 4 years ago. Customer feedback could have changed his view.