PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Dmac72]

A warning for some errors or infringements is sensible enough.
Particularly those which had zero effect on others.
Still unsure that an allowable quota of contacts wouldn’t be open to abuse. You could then know for certain that you can give the car in front a light tap mid corner and get away with it. With SR averaged over a period of time a driver could even make the judgement that it is worth the SR hit in certain races because their previous races had been clean.
It’s not necessarily contact that is the problem, mistakes happen in races, it is intentionally making contact that spoils it for me and I have no idea how they could detect intent.

 

[CBH]

That was not a joke. I know very well the difference between racing in real-life and in video games, but have come to accept that any scenario I face in GT Sport or other games like it, no matter if they are perfect simulations or not, is very similar to what real racing drivers face on a regular basis. I will say it once more: it is not impossible to have clean racing in games like GT Sport without resorting to permanent ghosting. We understand that ghosting is your preferred method of ensuring clean racing, but please accept that not everyone wants to see it as the be-all and end-all solution to the problem.

It is impossible for a computer that can tell who is at fault when contact happens between 2 cars. I understand that not everyone likes my idea called Ghosting but it maybe the best way to clean up the penalty system.
If the penalty system is not fair, so why have it in the first place in Sport Mode. PD need to have to look at something else that will work better for online Racing, or we will still be here talking about it in 30 years from now.

At the end of the day, I just want to go online and really enjoy my time racing with other players, and not having to deal with a unfair penalty system, which will never be wright so PD need find a better and fairer way, and you know what is going to be.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... If you choose a weird racing line because you think it's clever/fast/safe, well if you have an accident it wasn't so clever now was it Certainly the system shouldn't penalize the car that's driving around text book style. If you deviate by driving an abnormal line, it's on you not to hit those that follow the generally accepted flow of the track.

I am ! clever so why would I have an accident ? You're right, mate, though. Of course I am ! responsible to keep it safe.
I should have been clearer with what I wanted to point out.
We talked about "monitoring abnormal interaction" which, on track, could be monitoring drivers way off the racing line / generally accepted flow of the track, as an AI tool to run a penalty system.
Now in this case, since I basically have the right to use every millimeter of the track ( no matter how clever, convenient or stupid that might be ), deriving penalties from this alone would be plain wrong.
In general, whenever you define a norm to make the AI work ( speed in a braking zone is another example here ), there's a danger of unnecessarily reducing the free decision of a driver and limiting the diversity of racing itself ................... ................... understood ? Gotta work on my English !

 

[gtpierre]

A warning for some errors or infringements is sensible enough.
Particularly those which had zero effect on others.
Still unsure that an allowable quota of contacts wouldn’t be open to abuse. You could then know for certain that you can give the car in front a light tap mid corner and get away with it.

think of the quota as something adjustable, for example :
high SR, high DR races could have a quota of strong contact =0, 1 for light contacts
High SR, low DR could be 1 because low DR are more likely to miss a braking point by much
[etc...]

You could then know for certain that you can give the car in front a light tap mid corner and get away with it.
It’s not necessarily contact that is the problem, mistakes happen in races, it is intentionally making contact that spoils it for me and I have no idea how they could detect intent.

Deliberate single contacts would obviously be a problem, but from my experience, dirty drivers gain each position with a contact so they wouldn't be able to do this.

But I see your point.
This morning for example, I got passed in the last long right turn of autopolis by a guy that decided to jump inside with 2 wheels on the grass and pushed me away from the curb, stealing my first place. He had a clean race until there (I was behind him until he messed up the T1 of last lap) and he just chose to drive dirty to take back the first spot in the last turn.

Now with the system previously described, every contact counts because it would increase your contact average, and therefore, decrease the SR. The only way this guy could pull this dirty move without being punished, is if he do it only once. If he repeats it in any other race, it will increase his average and he will fall on the SR scale.

With SR averaged over a period of time a driver could even make the judgement that it is worth the SR hit in certain races because their previous races had been clean.

In the system that sven was proposing, it was averaged over 120 min. it means this "tactical dirty driver" would have to race 120min with no contacts to keep his SR at the top after he performed his dirty move.

I think this SR system would really clean things up more efficiently than the current one, because as SR would be harder to gain, it would force people to avoid contacts as you could not "farm" SR in race C like it's currently the case.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

A warning for some errors or infringements is sensible enough.
Particularly those which had zero effect on others.
Still unsure that an allowable quota of contacts wouldn’t be open to abuse. You could then know for certain that you can give the car in front a light tap mid corner and get away with it. With SR averaged over a period of time a driver could even make the judgement that it is worth the SR hit in certain races because their previous races had been clean.
It’s not necessarily contact that is the problem, mistakes happen in races, it is intentionally making contact that spoils it for me and I have no idea how they could detect intent.

Yep, that's what happened on Kyoto a few weeks back. That race had a lot of SR to 'use' for contact during the race and bumping increased accordingly during the week. The road there is also very wide thus spinning out cars would usually go without a penalty since the spin out would keep his wheels inside the track limits. You could 'afford' 6 SR Downs and still have a blue S at the end. It became a mess.

Any contact should still count and worked into your SR rating. Yet an allowable quota before DQ is reasonable.

In the current system it's better to risk a bump rather than avoid a car by putting yourself off track like the etiquette video suggests. That should no longer be the case. Contact should always be worse than losing time in the grass and get a wall or shortcut penalty on top of that. It's also more risky to brake for accidents atm than plow through and hope they ghost on time or simply knock them out of the way. Avoidance should not be punished, yet that's really hard to implement. Therefore any contact should always count against you to make avoiding the better option in the long run.

I am ! clever so why would I have an accident ? You're right, mate, though. Of course I am ! responsible to keep it safe.
I should have been clearer with what I wanted to point out.
We talked about "monitoring abnormal interaction" which, on track, could be monitoring drivers way off the racing line / generally accepted flow of the track, as an AI tool to run a penalty system.
Now in this case, since I basically have the right to use every millimeter of the track ( no matter how clever, convenient or stupid that might be ), deriving penalties from this alone would be plain wrong.
In general, whenever you define a norm to make the AI work ( speed in a braking zone is another example here ), there's a danger of unnecessarily reducing the free decision of a driver and limiting the diversity of racing itself ................... ................... understood ? Gotta work on my English !

Yes, understood. And often you have to take weird lines to avoid a struggling car or unsure driver. The system can not reliably detect fault, hence all contacts should simply be treated as contacts for everyone involved with SR based on your rate of contacts. Avoiding cars should be the priority and not go unrewarded.

The 1-99 scale with races varying from 3 (Sarthe B race) to 26 SR (Tsukaba C race) per race is not working.

 

[Dmac72]

Yep, that's what happened on Kyoto a few weeks back. That race had a lot of SR to 'use' for contact during the race and bumping increased accordingly during the week. The road there is also very wide thus spinning out cars would usually go without a penalty since the spin out would keep his wheels inside the track limits. You could 'afford' 6 SR Downs and still have a blue S at the end. It became a mess.

Any contact should still count and worked into your SR rating. Yet an allowable quota before DQ is reasonable.

In the current system it's better to risk a bump rather than avoid a car by putting yourself off track like the etiquette video suggests. That should no longer be the case. Contact should always be worse than losing time in the grass and get a wall or shortcut penalty on top of that. It's also more risky to brake for accidents atm than plow through and hope they ghost on time or simply knock them out of the way. Avoidance should not be punished, yet that's really hard to implement. Therefore any contact should always count against you to make avoiding the better option in the long run.



Yes, understood. And often you have to take weird lines to avoid a struggling car or unsure driver. The system can not reliably detect fault, hence all contacts should simply be treated as contacts for everyone involved with SR based on your rate of contacts. Avoiding cars should be the priority and not go unrewarded.

The 1-99 scale with races varying from 3 (Sarthe B race) to 26 SR (Tsukaba C race) per race is not working.

That’s the point I was trying to make previously. If some contact is allowed, you can be sure it will happen.

 

[fastone371]

It is impossible for a computer that can tell who is at fault when contact happens between 2 cars. I understand that not everyone likes my idea called Ghosting but it maybe the best way to clean up the penalty system.
If the penalty system is not fair, so why have it in the first place in Sport Mode. PD need to have to look at something else that will work better for online Racing, or we will still be here talking about it in 30 years from now.

At the end of the day, I just want to go online and really enjoy my time racing with other players, and not having to deal with a unfair penalty system, which will never be wright so PD need find a better and fairer way, and you know what is going to be.

Talk about a one trick pony beating a dead horse, it would be nice if you had something else to offer other than this ridiculous idea of full time ghosting which takes the very essence of racing out of the race.

Your KP stats show that you have run less than 20 Sport Mode races so far. Once you get to an SR S and improve your DR a little I think you would find that you can have good, fair races. Of course it's possible to run across someone who abuses the system but that can happen with anything.
I think when most complain about the penalty system they are talking about the type of penalties that are preposterously wrong, not all penalties or even the majority,,just a minority of them but they are so wrong people wonder what PD is thinking. We had versions of the penalty system that I think worked better but the people on the lower end of the SR scale complained loudly and the squeaky wheel gets the grease unfortunately.
The penalty system just needs tweaking, not a complete revamp, especially not one that would make racing a joke. My guess is that if PD went to full time so many people would leave Sport Mode that it would cease to exist. Contact and accidents are just part of racing. It is something that happens in every race where 2 or more cars compete at the same time on the same track, even in drag racing where they have individual lanes that the rules require you to adhere to. Part of the enjoyment in racing is finding a way to pass a car that is just slightly slower than you, even if that holds true for a few corners, I'm sure most will agree. It's not winning that keeps us coming
I would be curious to see how your view point may change on this if you worked your way to a DR A SR S or DR B SR S and started your races towards the front of the field. The majority of the time the racing is great if you avoid tracks like Monza and Tokyo where a back marker can take out 3/4 of the grid.

 

[oneloops]

A single vote after each race for signaling dirty racers should be enough to send them quickly to E SR level and -2000 DR points.
Each vote must be linked with a race contact.

Others players can vote too if they see dirty racers, kind of witness...

3 negatives votes from different people in 5 races for example = Severe Penalty.

 

[CBH]

Talk about a one trick pony beating a dead horse, it would be nice if you had something else to offer other than this ridiculous idea of full time ghosting which takes the very essence of racing out of the race.

Your KP stats show that you have run less than 20 Sport Mode races so far. Once you get to an SR S and improve your DR a little I think you would find that you can have good, fair races. Of course it's possible to run across someone who abuses the system but that can happen with anything.
I think when most complain about the penalty system they are talking about the type of penalties that are preposterously wrong, not all penalties or even the majority,,just a minority of them but they are so wrong people wonder what PD is thinking. We had versions of the penalty system that I think worked better but the people on the lower end of the SR scale complained loudly and the squeaky wheel gets the grease unfortunately.
The penalty system just needs tweaking, not a complete revamp, especially not one that would make racing a joke. My guess is that if PD went to full time so many people would leave Sport Mode that it would cease to exist. Contact and accidents are just part of racing. It is something that happens in every race where 2 or more cars compete at the same time on the same track, even in drag racing where they have individual lanes that the rules require you to adhere to. Part of the enjoyment in racing is finding a way to pass a car that is just slightly slower than you, even if that holds true for a few corners, I'm sure most will agree. It's not winning that keeps us coming
I would be curious to see how your view point may change on this if you worked your way to a DR A SR S or DR B SR S and started your races towards the front of the field. The majority of the time the racing is great if you avoid tracks like Monza and Tokyo where a back marker can take out 3/4 of the grid.

Ghosting will be better than getting ufair penalties, like contact between 2 cars and there is no way in the world, you are going get that right between the 2 car contact.

It does not matter if you got a good rating or not and you started on pole, you are still having players making mistakes out on the track, and it does not matter how good you are. So Ghosting will make Racing better because it is a game people, the penalty system is a waste of time and it will never be right, so why have it.

 

[SB100]

Running a Daily race at Brands the other day. Second corner guy punts me off, drops me from 4th to 13th. I got a SR drop and a 5 second penalty, he got no penalty, still came back through the field to finish 5th but definitely some gray areas in the penalty system that can really cause chaos.

 

[Dmac72]

I think the sensible conclusion for me is simply to avoid sport mode for the mean time. If or when the rules/penalties are changed I will have another look at it. I've never been overly concerned about where my DR or SR sits, just about clean, fair, close competition.
With a wife, 2 kids and a job I have more than enough stress in my life. GT is my moment of escapism for a couple of hours once or twice a week and all I am looking for is a couple of close races without getting used by someone instead of their brake pedal. So I'll stick to the odd race against mates for now or a spot of VR time trialling or Dirt Rally.
Not sure I am overly optimistic about any changes coming though. PD are a business and will cater to the majority. From what I have seen recently, the majority seem to want to bump and bang their way through the races.

 

[fastone371]

Ghosting will be better than getting ufair penalties, like contact between 2 cars and there is no way in the world, you are going get that right between the 2 car contact.

It does not matter if you got a good rating or not and you started on pole, you are still having players making mistakes out on the track, and it does not matter how good you are. So Ghosting will make Racing better because it is a game people, the penalty system is a waste of time and it will never be right, so why have it.

I have tried to help you attain some reasonable understanding of the fact that full time ghosting eliminates any recognizable elements of actual racing just as others have pointed out the same facts to you yet you keep visiting this ridiculous idea of ghosting.

I would be willing to bet if you actually spent some time improving your race craft and actually ran some Sport Mode races that your views on what the penalty system needed would change drastically. 19 races is barely dipping your toe in the pool so to speak. When I raced with the mindset that I dont need to watch out for other cars and if you hot me once I will hit you twice I hated the penalty system too. When I focused on getting faster and racing clean no matter what the other guy did an amazing thing happened, it completely changed the penalty system!!! Yes, it is flawed but it only needs tweaks, not an entire revamp. You would be amazed at what happens when you change your own habits.
No need to reply to me that ghosting is the only way, like others I already know that ghosting will turn races into simple hot lapping which is already available in the game, unfortunately I nor none of the others have been able to help you understand that to any degree.

 

[CBH]

I have tried to help you attain some reasonable understanding of the fact that full time ghosting eliminates any recognizable elements of actual racing just as others have pointed out the same facts to you yet you keep visiting this ridiculous idea of ghosting.

I would be willing to bet if you actually spent some time improving your race craft and actually ran some Sport Mode races that your views on what the penalty system needed would change drastically. 19 races is barely dipping your toe in the pool so to speak. When I raced with the mindset that I dont need to watch out for other cars and if you hot me once I will hit you twice I hated the penalty system too. When I focused on getting faster and racing clean no matter what the other guy did an amazing thing happened, it completely changed the penalty system!!! Yes, it is flawed but it only needs tweaks, not an entire revamp. You would be amazed at what happens when you change your own habits.
No need to reply to me that ghosting is the only way, like others I already know that ghosting will turn races into simple hot lapping which is already available in the game, unfortunately I nor none of the others have been able to help you understand that to any degree.

Can you tell me another good way other than Ghosting when there is contact between 2 cars, and the penalties are handed out.

 

[killerjimbag]

Can you tell me another good way other than Ghosting when there is contact between 2 cars, and the penalties are handed out.

Ghosting is for talentless drivers. Just my opinion.Either they run through you, or you run through them. Doesn't take any talent to do that.

 

[fastone371]

Ghosting is for talentless drivers. Just my opinion.Either they run through you, or you run through them. Doesn't take any talent to do that.

Well said!!!!!

 

[CBH]

Ghosting is for talentless drivers. Just my opinion.Either they run through you, or you run through them. Doesn't take any talent to do that.

Ghosting is the way to go for fair play right, if there is no Ghosting you are continuing on having players that ram you, and dive bomb you, and that means Dirty play. Which do you want Ghosting or players that play dirty ?.

 

[Outspacer]

 

[killerjimbag]

Ghosting is the way to go for fair play right, if there is no Ghosting you are continuing on having players that ram you, and dive bomb you, and that means Dirty play. Which do you want Ghosting or players that play dirty ?.

We get your point! You just don't seem to get anybody else's. Dive bomb away my friend.

 

[Dmac72]

Ghosting is the way to go for fair play right, if there is no Ghosting you are continuing on having players that ram you, and dive bomb you, and that means Dirty play. Which do you want Ghosting or players that play dirty ?.

I am pretty certain that PD will never implement full ghosting in races. It would take too much away from the game for the vast majority of players/customers.
If sport mode or GT doesn’t give you the experience you want, then it is possible to step away from the game.
I have played various versions for over 20 years now and the current sport mode doesn’t provide the experience I want, so I don’t enter those races. I wish it was different and maybe it will be some day.
Keep in mind that while you, I and many others on this forum don’t like it that it is POSSIBLE that the majority of players don’t mind the crash-bang approach.
There are other solutions rather than ghosting. Many have been suggested on here. That ghosting is your preference is fair enough. It’s as valid a suggestion for the game you want as everyone else’s suggestion is for the experience they want.
There is certainly no one-size-fits-all fix.

 

[DanSHW]

Ghosting has its place in the game, if a car is spinning, then ghosting should be used to stop it taking others out, and cars should be ghosted when re-entering the track until they're back up to speed, but permanent ghosting is not the solution.

I want to have to race my opponents, lining up an overtake and passing someone cleanly, holding off a faster opponent on the last lap, driving side by side at high speed and so many other things are the best moments of the game, and you take all that away if you can just drive through everyone.

I know someone said it would mess with BOP, but I think SR ballast or power reduction is the way to go. All matchmaking should be done by DR, and qualifying done with standard BOP and used to sort the grid as now, but ballast/power reduction applied for the race. If someone's previous dirty driving leaves them several seconds a lap slower than they otherwise should be, and they're losing races because of it, they'll clean up their driving.

 

[fastone371]

Ghosting has its place in the game, if a car is spinning, then ghosting should be used to stop it taking others out, and cars should be ghosted when re-entering the track until they're back up to speed, but permanent ghosting is not the solution.

I want to have to race my opponents, lining up an overtake and passing someone cleanly, holding off a faster opponent on the last lap, driving side by side at high speed and so many other things are the best moments of the game, and you take all that away if you can just drive through everyone.

I know someone said it would mess with BOP, but I think SR ballast or power reduction is the way to go. All matchmaking should be done by DR, and qualifying done with standard BOP and used to sort the grid as now, but ballast/power reduction applied for the race. If someone's previous dirty driving leaves them several seconds a lap slower than they otherwise should be, and they're losing races because of it, they'll clean up their driving.

I kind of like that idea and it wouldn't change the very essence of racing like one particular suggestion we hear over and over again here.

 

[gtpierre]

If you don't have Ghosting in a game you are never going to have fair Racing.

So Ghosting is the one that will work

Ghosting but it maybe the best way to clean up the penalty system.

Ghosting is the way to go for fair play right.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Ghosting has its place in the game, if a car is spinning, then ghosting should be used to stop it taking others out, and cars should be ghosted when re-entering the track until they're back up to speed, but permanent ghosting is not the solution.

I want to have to race my opponents, lining up an overtake and passing someone cleanly, holding off a faster opponent on the last lap, driving side by side at high speed and so many other things are the best moments of the game, and you take all that away if you can just drive through everyone.

Agreed, virtual drivers cannot be expected to behave in safe and responsible ways when people's lives aren't actually on the line. So anytime a player's driving deviates from safety protocol (not pulling off track while losing control, unsafely reentering the track, speeding through a braking zone, etc.) the game should ghost that person.

Any suggestion by anyone to remove any and all contact is just absurd and outside of the intended scope of this game. They might as well beg for hover cars while they're at it because they clearly don't understand this game or care to productively take part in this discussion about the penalty system surrounding said contact.

 

[Dmac72]

A pace penalty is an interesting idea. Would stii need to ensure there was correctly apportioned blame for incidents though. Which is a large part of the current problem.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

More and more good ideas mentioned here regarding possible rewards/penalties or advantages/disadvantages.
I second @Dmac72 though, the foremost problem to solve is to separate the player base into SR classes.
There's too many bad/unfair people in SR S and too many good/fair in SR A and below. Make SR meaningful first.

 

[Dmac72]

If someone's previous dirty driving leaves them several seconds a lap slower than they otherwise should be, and they're losing races because of it, they'll clean up their driving.

The downside of a pace penalty could be slower drivers in a race always having to deal with the dirtiest drivers in order that quick drivers get a clear run.
At various times I have been in both of those groups and would rather have the same experience of racing fighting for 19th place as I do for first, rather than an easy time at the front at the expense of others down the field.

 

[CBH]

I am pretty certain that PD will never implement full ghosting in races. It would take too much away from the game for the vast majority of players/customers.
If sport mode or GT doesn’t give you the experience you want, then it is possible to step away from the game.
I have played various versions for over 20 years now and the current sport mode doesn’t provide the experience I want, so I don’t enter those races. I wish it was different and maybe it will be some day.
Keep in mind that while you, I and many others on this forum don’t like it that it is POSSIBLE that the majority of players don’t mind the crash-bang approach.
There are other solutions rather than ghosting. Many have been suggested on here. That ghosting is your preference is fair enough. It’s as valid a suggestion for the game you want as everyone else’s suggestion is for the experience they want.
There is certainly no one-size-fits-all fix.

Having Ghosting when it is needed in the game like contact between 2 cars, because of the penalty system is unfair when there is contact right. The only really other way is don't hand out any penalties when there is contact between 2 cars, but that will just makes more players ram you and dive bombing you.
Damage in a big no in Sports Mode races, because there will be carnage out on the track.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Id like to see less modern circuits in the game because the penalty system is particularly bad when tarmac run-off is involved. The Red Bull Ring is a joke

 

[vvise]

I tapped someone in the final corner of brand in the braking zone and they extended the exit and went off. Normally I'm sure I would get a 5s penalty, but the game didn't give me one. It's possible PD tweaked the time that you're vulnerable to these kinds of penalties.

 

[DanSHW]

No one has a problem with the idea of ghosting when there's going to be a heavy collision, perhaps have an impact speed that automatically ghosts cars, but no one else wants permanent ghosting where cars are lapping at the same pace and passing back and forth through each other where they're better through different corners. I'd rather deal with a minority of bad drivers as we have now than have that, I'd probably stop racing in sport mode if permanent ghosting came in.

Thinking about it, you'd need a power reduction instead of a weight increase, otherwise you'd have these drivers really messing up their braking points and probably taking people out, and with extra force from the increased weight.

This way, you'd also end up racing with those closest to your speed, as the DR should balance out, and resets shouldn't be needed as the power reduction would drop dirty drivers' DR anyway.