PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Sven Jurgens]

Yeah. Looks like if the cars are at similar speed and the one behind bumps and then taps a wall, there is no penalty anymore. But I can confirm, that if there is a big speed difference then the car in the front does get a penalty. The game probably considers it blocking.

Didn't it use to be at the beginning of the start/finish straight? When did they change it? Penalties definitely hurt way less now. Also seems to me that it's a lot easier now to get a 5s wall contact penalty. Maybe that's why they've changed it. With the original penalty line a 5s penalty was basically race-ending in higher ranked lobbies.

Unfortunately brake checking works again It probably wasn't intentional, DR.D driver braking hard for a corner that doesn't need any braking, slight lift at most. I bumped him, he touched the wall, I get 3 seconds. It's still raining SR Downs as well from other people bumping you. A draft bump, still SR Down for the car in front. from 99 to 93 from a 3 sec penalty and 3 SR Downs, not too bad. In a race B that would have put me in SR.A.

I think the penalty zone was always there on this track, I remember complaining about it before lol. I find it a lot harder to get a 5 sec wall penalty now. A slight scrape after the bridge used to be enough for 5 sec. Scrapes on the inside wall don't give you a penalty anymore either. I'm still B/S though from the previous 3 weeks DR loss, it might be different when I reach DR.A again.

Oh well, thought it would be better but no. Laggy Brazilians means more bs penalties. Get punted in T1 get a 3 sec penalty. Still a piece of 🤬

 

[Granadier]

There’s absolutely no reason why a draft bump should be the front car’s “fault”. If you’re drafting into a baking zone and don’t compensate your braking point that’s your fault. C’mon PD

Edit: wait I found an image for Sven

 

[breeminator]

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... In my opinion zero tolerance would be a good transitional solution. In the long term, however, the algorithms need to be improved. Otherwise, there will always be opportunities for underhanded players to outsmart the system.

I admit I expect a bit of progress by using neural networks as a developing tool, but as Kaz stated, that is a long way down the road and I sure won't let my hopes get too high anyway.
Until then, please PD, spare me that mess of a penalty system. Skip it entirely and try something else for the next sequel of the game.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

I'm cautiously optimistic PD has fixed the "bump from behind then the wall" penalty. I haven't seen it happen in the 6 races I did today on Tokyo. You do still get SR Down from getting tapped, even when I got punted into the wall in T1, I got SR Down and the perp nothing. Yet when a diver bumped me into the wall in T2 he did get a penalty. Difference was the diver was DR.A+ the punter DR.B, so perhaps it was a DR thing. Wall penalties also seem to happen less often again yet ghosting is a bit better.

The penalty zone is in a stupid place on Tokyo though. Very dangerous to put it in a braking zone plus that means the higher the penalty the less the damage. Someone with a 5 sec penalty loses 3.5 sec at most while on the Tokyo track that was on a month ago that would cost you more than 10 seconds. So, once you get a penalty, might as well rack up the time as it's a hairpin right after the penalty zone anyway

I think the wall tap penalty is still there, but the penalty now is only 1 second.

In Race C today, had an A/S driver ahead of me in a VW overshoot the hairpin. I kept my inside line, and was nowhere near them as we exited.

As they come back to the track, they're outside of me, cut into my rear bumper at around 40mph, they for some reason head to the wall on the left, there was no reason for this as we were in the middle of the track.

I get a 1 second penalty for "colliding with another car", when it really was the other way around as they were behind me.

The douche then, on the final lap at the hairpin was a full second behind, dive bombs both myself and a Bugatti in front. Knocks the Bugatti to the cones on the hairpin, knocks me out of the way with absolutely no penalty. They gain 2 places with no recourse!

I hate A drivers!!!

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I think the wall tap penalty is still there, but the penalty now is only 1 second.

In Race C today, had an A/S driver ahead of me in a VW overshoot the hairpin. I kept my inside line, and was nowhere near them as we exited.

As they come back to the track, they're outside of me, cut into my rear bumper at around 40mph, they for some reason head to the wall on the left, there was no reason for this as we were in the middle of the track.

I get a 1 second penalty for "colliding with another car", when it really was the other way around as they were behind me.

The douche then, on the final lap at the hairpin was a full second behind, dive bombs both myself and a Bugatti in front. Knocks the Bugatti to the cones on the hairpin, knocks me out of the way with absolutely no penalty. They gain 2 places with no recourse!

I hate A drivers!!!

I've already got 3 sec from a rear tap then wall, at least that's the only way I can explain this one

The car on my inside first falls behind then taps me and the wall as I take the apex.

The time always feels so random. In one race I ran into a slow moving ghost unghosting in the penalty zone right on my bumper, 1 sec. In another, a ghost unghosting right after the bridge (perhaps he was pausing the game?) much slower speed difference 2 sec. Then a car hitting the wall, I avoid yet he bounces so badly he takes me out anyway, 3 sec. I get murdered in T1, get SR Down and the punter nothing, It feels so random or rather upside down.

And yes, those A/S drivers and some low A+/S drivers are the worst. Constant nudges and squeezing, not full on dirty but contact free racing is not in their vocabulary. Grind for position with enough knowledge of the penalty system to come out ahead, most of the time. Of course the only A+ drivers I meet are those that get put to the back by the penalty zone, so they are suspect already.

 

[Veinz]

I’ve been playing a lot of F1 2019 ranked lobbies lately and that game’s penalty system is no better. From my armchair this seems like this going to take a very long time for developers to perfect.

 

[Granadier]

Give up and let the machines teach themselves how to dish out the penalties.

Honestly this is such a perfect example of why online races should use the strong ghosting setting so that people can't deliberately drive high speed into the corners to crash into other cars.

 

[Dorofint]

The system already makes many mistakes when only 2 cars are involved in a collision. But if several vehicles are affected, as in this chain reaction, then almost always the wrong driver is punished. For a correct decision in these cases, the algorithms are far too primitive.

 

[breeminator]

I get murdered in T1, get SR Down and the punter nothing, It feels so random or rather upside down.

I've been wondering if making it truly random might be a good solution until they can make it get it right more often than it gets it wrong. So any incident, it simply uses a RNG to assign blame, and importantly, it is publicised clearly that this is how it works. I can't accept shared blame as a solution because I just cannot agree with another player being able to deliberately cause me to receive a penalty. But a randomly assigned blame, now another player cannot do anything that is guaranteed to give me a penalty. They will always have the risk of them getting a penalty, and me getting no penalty. Sure, sometimes it will be the other way round, but we get that often enough anyway.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I've been wondering if making it truly random might be a good solution until they can make it get it right more often than it gets it wrong. So any incident, it simply uses a RNG to assign blame, and importantly, it is publicised clearly that this is how it works. I can't accept shared blame as a solution because I just cannot agree with another player being able to deliberately cause me to receive a penalty. But a randomly assigned blame, now another player cannot do anything that is guaranteed to give me a penalty. They will always have the risk of them getting a penalty, and me getting no penalty. Sure, sometimes it will be the other way round, but we get that often enough anyway.

Sure why not, it would be an improvement. It's definitely not working now. I just got bumped into the wall on the way to the finish while passing. Very clear, intentional, yet no penalty. He was dirty earlier this morning, reported both times but that does nothing. Apparently it's too difficult to look at steering input, one car goes straight the other steers into that car with no other traffic around. How is that hard to check?

But first, get rid of the penalty zones, don't display any penalty times during the race, present it at the finish. I've see more and more revenge moves from people that get a penalty and the penalty zones are always a source of secondary incidents. Add the penalty time at the finish and just show SR Down during the race to let you know where you had contact.

 

[KMGMC]

I do like the idea of just adding the penalty time at the end of the race. I find if your further back in the pack and someone up front gets a penalty, most of the time when they come back from being ghosted someone runs into them as most penalty zones are on the long straights, which in turn makes a very slow car compared to others flying by.

The only issue I see with adding it at the end of the race is, if there’s a dirt driver who is actually fast, you’ll be dealing with him the whole race. As well it now makes another car you have to try and overtake.

For example sometimes you try and overtake someone and they either pinch you off the track or if your 2 wide they leave you no space, which can make it difficult to get by. If there penalty is added at the end, your going to have to deal with that the entire race, in turn slowing down your race pace and letting everyone ahead put a huge gap between you.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

True, but how it is now is that someone else gets to deal with that. Plus putting that faster dirty driver behind slower drivers he'll only be bumping more people out of the way getting back to the front. Spreading the misery :/

Any solution depends on the penalty system actually being able to detect fault, which it can't. A stop and go in the pit stop would at least be better than the penalty zones. 3 contacts, mandatory stop and go, if you don't enter the pit, DQ. Some pit exits are bad as well but at least better than traffic at completely different speeds at the penalty zones.

 

[KMGMC]

True, but how it is now is that someone else gets to deal with that. Plus putting that faster dirty driver behind slower drivers he'll only be bumping more people out of the way getting back to the front. Spreading the misery :/

Any solution depends on the penalty system actually being able to detect fault, which it can't. A stop and go in the pit stop would at least be better than the penalty zones. 3 contacts, mandatory stop and go, if you don't enter the pit, DQ. Some pit exits are bad as well but at least better than traffic at completely different speeds at the penalty zones.

Ya 100% agree with you, they definitely have to figure something better then the on track penalty zones. I like the stop and go in the pits idea.

 

[Dorofint]

[..] Apparently it's too difficult to look at steering input, one car goes straight the other steers into that car with no other traffic around. How is that hard to check? [..]

They evaluated the steering input for a while when there were collisions. That was part of the algorism of the penalty system. But that was very quickly tricked by dirty drivers. In a Divebomb or sidewipe, these drivers have fully steered. Shortly before the collision, they released the stick on their controller. The stick has centered itself and GTS has registered no steering deflection in the collision. The trick with releasing the stick in case of a collision has been read in many forums. In such cases, however, the victim usually had a steering movement, either because it was already turning in the curve or trying to avoid the accident. This meant almost 100% a penalty for the victim and nothing for the cause. This has taken over extremely until PD changed it.

 

[BaareCZ]

They evaluated the steering input for a while when there were collisions. That was part of the algorism of the penalty system. But that was very quickly tricked by dirty drivers. In a Divebomb or sidewipe, these drivers have fully steered. Shortly before the collision, they released the stick on their controller. The stick has centered itself and GTS has registered no steering deflection in the collision. The trick with releasing the stick in case of a collision has been read in many forums. In such cases, however, the victim usually had a steering movement, either because it was already turning in the curve or trying to avoid the accident. This meant almost 100% a penalty for the victim and nothing for the cause. This has taken over extremely until PD changed it.

I had no idea that they've already tried that. So (judging by the lack of adjustments in the last year) I guess they're more or less done with it now because no matter what they do, there will always be some dirty 🤬 taking advantage of its flaws. Something good has yet again been ruined by people.

 

[Redneckchef]

I can unfortunately confirm wall tap penalty is still a solid 2 seconds at tokyo. Had 2 people do it to me and by end of second race was losing my marbles. Soooo I have to admit to using it to try to punish a very egregious penalty system manipulator. It worked, but still only gave him 2 seconds, 🤬 used that lots during the race, he deserved about 20

 

[Dorofint]

I had no idea that they've already tried that. So (judging by the lack of adjustments in the last year) I guess they're more or less done with it now because no matter what they do, there will always be some dirty 🤬 taking advantage of its flaws. Something good has yet again been ruined by people.

That's been over a year. At that time, a lot of parameters were taken into account. In addition to the position of accelerator pedal, brake and steering also the exact impact points in a collision. But they did not come up with an algorithm that gave reliable results with this data. Some things were not well thought out, such as that with the impact points at the collisions. Others were abused by cunning but dirty players such as that with the steering. Therefore, the system has been simplified and exited with minor adjustments to date. Actually, it's crazy that the system in the beginning was more complex and thoughtful than it is now. But it did not work right then and still does not do it now. The developers seem to have given up any development on it.

 

[BaareCZ]

That's been over a year. At that time, a lot of parameters were taken into account. In addition to the position of accelerator pedal, brake and steering also the exact impact points in a collision. But they did not come up with an algorithm that gave reliable results with this data. Some things were not well thought out, such as that with the impact points at the collisions. Others were abused by cunning but dirty players such as that with the steering. Therefore, the system has been simplified and exited with minor adjustments to date. Actually, it's crazy that the system in the beginning was more complex and thoughtful than it is now. But it did not work right then and still does not do it now. The developers seem to have given up any development on it.

That just 🤬 me off. Must have been so frustrating and demotivating for the developers. No wonder they've given up. Should've been the other way around though. This joke of a system at the begining and slowly working their way to the more complex one. But it all comes down to SR S being way too easy to achieve and keep anyway. That's the main issue in my opinion. And that has to be way easier to fix then the penalty system.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

They evaluated the steering input for a while when there were collisions. That was part of the algorism of the penalty system. But that was very quickly tricked by dirty drivers. In a Divebomb or sidewipe, these drivers have fully steered. Shortly before the collision, they released the stick on their controller. The stick has centered itself and GTS has registered no steering deflection in the collision. The trick with releasing the stick in case of a collision has been read in many forums. In such cases, however, the victim usually had a steering movement, either because it was already turning in the curve or trying to avoid the accident. This meant almost 100% a penalty for the victim and nothing for the cause. This has taken over extremely until PD changed it.

Interesting I didn't know that. I thought it all had to do with where the collision occurs since a dive bomber is often already ahead on the inside when the collision occurs. But it makes sense with steering input as well, since the victim is turning for the corner while the diver is heading straight to use the victim to 'steer' around the corner. Lag is the biggest issue in determining where the collision occurs as with the forward prediction it could easily be a few meters difference between the two clients.

Yet why didn't they try to look at steering and brake input history, sensible lines and speed into the corner. It's not that hard to figure out what a dive bomb is and what a normal line through a corner is. As well as cutting the corner then hitting a car. The old system got so much wrong, and the new system still does, yet is a lot easier to trick :/

And yep, the only thing they're changing atm is lowering the sensitivity and penalties over all. You can grind people into the walls again without any penalties. I just got bumped hard into the wall at corner exit of the final hairpin. The other car didn't get a penalty but realized his mistake and slowed by himself to give me the position back. Now if everyone was like that we didn't need a penalty system

 

[Dorofint]

Interesting I didn't know that. I thought it all had to do with where the collision occurs since a dive bomber is often already ahead on the inside when the collision occurs. But it makes sense with steering input as well, since the victim is turning for the corner while the diver is heading straight to use the victim to 'steer' around the corner. Lag is the biggest issue in determining where the collision occurs as with the forward prediction it could easily be a few meters difference between the two clients.

Yet why didn't they try to look at steering and brake input history, sensible lines and speed into the corner. It's not that hard to figure out what a dive bomb is and what a normal line through a corner is. As well as cutting the corner then hitting a car. The old system got so much wrong, and the new system still does, yet is a lot easier to trick :/

And yep, the only thing they're changing atm is lowering the sensitivity and penalties over all. You can grind people into the walls again without any penalties. I just got bumped hard into the wall at corner exit of the final hairpin. The other car didn't get a penalty but realized his mistake and slowed by himself to give me the position back. Now if everyone was like that we didn't need a penalty system

If you analyze the data of the last few seconds you could certainly develop a much better penalty system. The question is just how much effort that costs? Effort for the development of the algorithms and computation time at the servers that process these algorithms. Whatever it was, it was not realized and developed as it should have been. I-Racing shows that a better penalty system is possible. I do not know how long the development in I-Racing took and which computing power on the server is necessary for it. But the result speaks for itself.
Since computational power with the time is getting cheaper, this problem would eventually do it yourself for PD. This leaves the effort for the development of the algorithms. That should be the main reason for the problems in GTS. PD has been having problems with algorithms for quite some time. I just remember the lousy AI in the singleplayer. Some games already realized that better 20 years ago. PD was supposed to hire some AI experts to improve the AI in single player and the algorithms in the penalty system. Both are related in a certain way. Therefore, it would make sense to give these tasks to a specialized team. This would take a few months, but the quality of the whole game will improve massively.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Penalties are far too lenient now, still often incorrect, but now also ineffective even when correct. For example, here the black car in 10th cuts the corner and rams 3 cars, only gets 1 sec penalty and still gains a spot despite the penalty. Risk much smaller than reward.

 

[ASH32]

@Sven Jurgens is showing up the penalty system once more. A yellow flag is out and a driver still causes a big crash and then only gets a 1 second penalty for it and even gains a place, the system is very broken now.

I'll be returning soon and then no doubt I'll end up with some penalty fun too.

 

[Dorofint]

Penalties are far too lenient now, still often incorrect, but now also ineffective even when correct. For example, here the black car in 10th cuts the corner and rams 3 cars, only gets 1 sec penalty and still gains a spot despite the penalty. Risk much smaller than reward.

We have already discussed this here often. Often, the penalties are in no reasonable proportion to the severity of the damage. I have already discussed this here recently. It often happens to me that I am rammed off the track in the last lap and lose so good places. For the most part, the rammer gets only a small penalty
or often none at all so that he can keep the unfair place in the race. With such rules, it is not surprising that many are so extremely aggressive in the last round. Waiting voluntarily until the victim has overtaken again make the least. The game should ghost and slow down rammer until the victim has overtaken again. But for this it must recognize the guilty and with this it has big problems. But in your case with multiple victims, even a better system would fail. The game would have to recognize all victims and to demand that would be utopian because it fails with only two involved often enough.

 

[GhostCaliber]

I had a BS penalty yesterday that I'm still salty about tbh.

I seriously wish they'd abandon the 5 second penalty for hitting the barriers rule.. I was hunting down 1st at Sarthe, & he must've hit one of those green bollards at some point going into turn 4 right before that big sweeping right hander that takes you onto the straight.

Anyway it was on the racing line, in the middle of where I'd place my car with no time to avoid it so I end up running over it, next news it bounces the front of my car up in the air, and of course I run slightly off track and scrape the barriers on the left (which are super close to the track anyway) and of course... 5 second penalty.

For what? for debris causing me to have an incident which I lost time for anyway?

Somehow I only finished 1 sec behind the leader after having an 8.5 sec deficit to the guy after that stupid penalty.

 

[breeminator]

Regarding the above clip, it was claimed during a recent live stream by the same youtuber that the player responsible has had his console banned from playing GTS online, so he can't get around it by creating another account. I don't know if this is true, or if it is, how long the ban is for.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

Earlier today I got rammed off going into Indianapolis. The car that was a full 3/4's of a second behind used me as their brakes. If I wasn't there they would have been off into the barriers.

Anyway, slams me into the wall and I get a 5 second penalty for hitting a barrier, but also a 0.5 second penalty for going off track.

The offender...................got a 3 second penalty.

By the time I get going again, they pull 6 seconds on me; seems fair!!!

 

[zaligrace]

Race C - Two races tonight in lobbies full of brake testers and people nudging me into corners! I try to be clean but got penalised for going into the back of brake testers! DR A (44,000 points) down to DR B (15000 points). WTF! Surely that’s not right? #longwayback

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The hit from behind and go off got me again today, only 1 sec but that really hurts on the Nord. The penalty zone there costs you about 3 times what penalty you have.

Getting out of SR.B seems impossible on race B (without qualifying and driving away on pole) 3 races avoiding all the crap, then a BS penalty in the fourth race and all the +2 +4 little gains are gone again. Not that it matters being in SR.B. Most people try to drive clean there as well and actually are less bumpy than in SR.S. In SR.S it was constant taps from behind trying to lower your SR.

 

[BaareCZ]

Earlier today I got rammed off going into Indianapolis. The car that was a full 3/4's of a second behind used me as their brakes. If I wasn't there they would have been off into the barriers.

Anyway, slams me into the wall and I get a 5 second penalty for hitting a barrier, but also a 0.5 second penalty for going off track.

The offender...................got a 3 second penalty.

By the time I get going again, they pull 6 seconds on me; seems fair!!!

Very similar thing happened to me in Indianapolis. A guy (more than 2s behind !!!) in the Sauber Merc flies in (sideways and completely out of control at about 270 kph) just as I'm turning left, utterly obliterates me and continues into the sand. BUT!!! Surprise, surprise. He gets no penalty whatsoever and I get a 5s penalty not for hitting the barrier as I had initially thought but for (wait for it) "Forcing another car off track" Are you 🤬 kidding me?!?!?! That's the highest penalty for contact you can get I think. And the one that has the most impact on your SR. At that moment I just said to myself: "Okay. Why the 🤬 should I care about SR when the system judging and deciding it is this stupid?" I've received many many many bull:censored: penalties at Le Mans this week but this one just really 🤬 me off.