PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[TJ13]

Maybe everyone should randomly get 5 seconds regardless of clean or not.
That'll work right?

I gave up on GTS online because of randoms booting you off and then you get a penalty for going off track.
Like really?
I go off because someone else did and you give me one?

 

[SestoScudo]

You get a penalty because you endanger other people on the track. If wall bounces were never punished people would be wall riding and pinging off walls instead of racing properly. Real damage doesn't work because it will be abused. The dirty tire effect and resulting tire wear already puts you at a big disadvantage after you get punted into the gravel.

The only time races got cleaner was when the penalty system was super strict and any contact was a guaranteed penalty. However that was abused as well with brake checks and stalling in corners to give the car behind 10 sec penalty while receiving only 1 second. Plus any incidental lag contact due to driving too close also resulted in 10 sec penalties which didn't sit well with the fast drivers who want to race bumper to bumper, door to door.

Unfortunately instead of refining the strict system PD went a different route to always punish the car that comes better off after contact. Which still gets abused as it doesn't look further than contact, who goes off / hits a wall. Thus when you bounce off a wall and hit the car behind you, that car ends up with a collision penalty when he manages to save himself while you ping back into the (other) wall.

Okay makes sense then again i smashed into a wall when there was no one behind i was like 5 seconds ahead.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Maybe everyone should randomly get 5 seconds regardless of clean or not.
That'll work right?

I gave up on GTS online because of randoms booting you off and then you get a penalty for going off track.
Like really?
I go off because someone else did and you give me one?

The reasoning behind that is that people abused contact to get free shortcuts. A well known approach on Monza at the 2 chicanes. Brake check the car behind or turn in on them when side by side to force contact, then skip the second part of the chicane entirely. This will give the other car a penalty while you gain a massive time advantage.

It still works in other situations as well

Contact, full power along the wall, wall riding pass without a penalty.

The game needs to detect 'booting someone off' instead of looking at who gets off worse. And certainly look longer at the after effects than the one second or so it does now. If you got punted at T1 on Tokyo and don't hit the wall until a second later even though you were sent to the point of no return, you get SR Down (for gaining a speed advantage) and 5 sec wall penalty.

A general penalty system doesn't work. It has to be tuned for every track, every part of the track and every car. The game needs to look at where the brake points are (and thus the braking zones) for different cars to figure out who is at fault. And the track layout as well, chicanes, hairpins, tight corners, long sweeping corners all need to be treated differently.

Then there's 'doing the right thing' according to the etiquette videos and still getting a penalty for it. If you void a car screwing up or spinning out but can only do so by touching a wall or going off track for a bit, you still get a penalty. The game needs to look at the why, not just at the what happened. It's a pipe dream though. Calculating your only options in any given situation from the moment a dangerous situation arises is probably costs too many resources. The AI sort of can, they avoid you in single player, so the game can figure out what you should do to avoid. However the AI is far from good enough to apply to online racing to say who should have done what.

Hopefully next gen we'll get an improved penalty and SR system It's still better than nothing but sure can be frustrating at times.

Okay makes sense then again i smashed into a wall when there was no one behind i was like 5 seconds ahead.

Yep, the game doesn't look at other traffic. I missed my braking point once, got reset, no one around, lost 9 seconds on my lap time, still 5 second penalty for hitting the back wall. Oh well, it teaches you to be more careful. Although in qualifying it should simply invalidate your current (and next lap if it's the final corner) instead of penalties.

Luckily there is no trophy or any benefit to fastest laps as they can also easily be gamed, penalties don't count for fastest lap. The trophy for nr of wins already causes enough trouble.

 

[Dorofint]

The reasoning behind that is that people abused contact to get free shortcuts. A well known approach on Monza at the 2 chicanes. Brake check the car behind or turn in on them when side by side to force contact, then skip the second part of the chicane entirely. This will give the other car a penalty while you gain a massive time advantage.

It still works in other situations as well

Contact, full power along the wall, wall riding pass without a penalty.

The game needs to detect 'booting someone off' instead of looking at who gets off worse. And certainly look longer at the after effects than the one second or so it does now. If you got punted at T1 on Tokyo and don't hit the wall until a second later even though you were sent to the point of no return, you get SR Down (for gaining a speed advantage) and 5 sec wall penalty.

A general penalty system doesn't work. It has to be tuned for every track, every part of the track and every car. The game needs to look at where the brake points are (and thus the braking zones) for different cars to figure out who is at fault. And the track layout as well, chicanes, hairpins, tight corners, long sweeping corners all need to be treated differently.

Then there's 'doing the right thing' according to the etiquette videos and still getting a penalty for it. If you void a car screwing up or spinning out but can only do so by touching a wall or going off track for a bit, you still get a penalty. The game needs to look at the why, not just at the what happened. It's a pipe dream though. Calculating your only options in any given situation from the moment a dangerous situation arises is probably costs too many resources. The AI sort of can, they avoid you in single player, so the game can figure out what you should do to avoid. However the AI is far from good enough to apply to online racing to say who should have done what.

Hopefully next gen we'll get an improved penalty and SR system It's still better than nothing but sure can be frustrating at times.





Yep, the game doesn't look at other traffic. I missed my braking point once, got reset, no one around, lost 9 seconds on my lap time, still 5 second penalty for hitting the back wall. Oh well, it teaches you to be more careful. Although in qualifying it should simply invalidate your current (and next lap if it's the final corner) instead of penalties.

Luckily there is no trophy or any benefit to fastest laps as they can also easily be gamed, penalties don't count for fastest lap. The trophy for nr of wins already causes enough trouble.

Yes the AI in GTS is too bad. The other games did it a lot better over 20 years ago. Does anyone still know "SODA Off-Road Racing" from the year 1997? Probably not because the game is very old and was not a great sales success then. The game also involved developers who are responsible for I-Racing today. It is a racing game with a track editor. The track editor is very powerful and also allows the free definition of altitude differences and banking of the curves. The really fascinating thing about the game is the self-learning AI. After a new track has been created, the game analyzes the new track for about 10 minutes and adjusts the AI to the nuances. Ten minutes on a computer from 1997, today this would be a matter of seconds. After the analysis, the AI drove on the new track surprisingly clever. The AI knows exactly how the track must be driven to be clean and fast. This data can also be used for a penalty system. Thus, the penalty system could detect exactly who is above the limits and who is not. But I also find it interesting how an automatically created AI from 1997 is better than what GTS offers over 20 years later on much better hardware.

 

[BaareCZ]

You know what I think about PD actually working on and improving upon this joke of a penalty system? Let me quote another member:

It's a pipe dream though.

That sums it up perfectly.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

You know what I think about PD actually working on and improving upon this joke of a penalty system? Let me quote another member:

That sums it up perfectly.

Indeed. It's been well over a year now since I stopped qualifying because of stuff like this.

You do everything right, leave tons of space, leave the option open to leave extra space at corner exit, yet the car behind makes a mistake and you get a penalty. It's not that hard to fix. I'm ahead before turn in, I'm at the right speed to make the corner, I didn't dive from behind, I have a steady line through the corner, what else can I do?

It was actually Saint-Croix where this whole thing started, in the next corner. Get tapped from behind, person behind hits the wall, you get a penalty.

 

[Fatal1ty93RUS]

No joke - a few days ago I went into a lobby for a Super Formula race. I was driving ahead of this guy on Monza, about to enter turn 3.
So I let go of throttle just a little, dude bumps into me, makes me go off the track (he did as well)

Guess what happens?
I get a 3 second penalty for forcing an opponent off

Are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[BaareCZ]

Indeed. It's been well over a year now since I stopped qualifying because of stuff like this.

You do everything right, leave tons of space, leave the option open to leave extra space at corner exit, yet the car behind makes a mistake and you get a penalty. It's not that hard to fix. I'm ahead before turn in, I'm at the right speed to make the corner, I didn't dive from behind, I have a steady line through the corner, what else can I do?

It was actually Saint-Croix where this whole thing started, in the next corner. Get tapped from behind, person behind hits the wall, you get a penalty.

Ha ha. Classic GTS. But you know what's the saddest thing about this penalty system? If we can even call it that. I'd actually be really surprised if I didn't get a penalty for that. That's how ridiculously bad it is.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Hey guys, let me tell you something. Though I feel like I've definitely finished with the online racing part of the game I still drop by here every other day to watch Sven's daily review and read some comments. Funny to watch thread participants change - fresh blood again and again complementing the senior staff ... keeping this thread alive though everything's been said a million times.
Today I got reminded of the very first German TV soap called "Lindenstrasse" - still running since 1985.
Actors as well as characters have come and gone but the stories remain the same.

 

[Lateralus5813]

Let me vent....Saint-Croix is FREAKING WIDE, how on earth are people hitting me from behind??

I imagine it's been said here many times, but if you're holding your line and the guy bumps you it's solely his fault. It makes no sense to get a penalty for that and see your SR go down.

 

[Dorofint]

Let me vent....Saint-Croix is FREAKING WIDE, how on earth are people hitting me from behind??

I imagine it's been said here many times, but if you're holding your line and the guy bumps you it's solely his fault. It makes no sense to get a penalty for that and see your SR go down.

Right. But the system is so primitive it can not see if someone keeps his line. Consequently, it can not take this into account in penalties. The system is like a short-sighted, one-eyed judge with amnesia. It only looks a fraction and only for a very short period of time. The fact that no objective assessment of the situation can arise is only logical. Too little information is collected for a correct analysis. But that does not matter. Even at the beginning, when even more data was aggregated, the evaluation algorithms were far too primitive to guarantee correct decisions.

 

[fisheye]

... If wall bounces were never punished people would be wall riding and pinging off walls instead of racing properly.

That just reminded me of the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak Version races in previous GT games. Bottom out the final gear ratio and full throttle from start to finish.

 

[ASH32]

I guess B drivers can still do what they like to A and above drivers, only way I can explain this one.





Only on their view I can see why the game gave me a penalty, it was for the slight touch into my back when I re-joined, which caused them to ever so slightly go off. Their divebomb was just ignored completely.

So even when I do what others do and try to get the game to give deserved penalties it does not work.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@ASH32 I think PD has reduced the time between getting hit and detecting going off road / hitting a wall. I've been punted on Tokyo in the rain and when it takes over a second to inevitably hit the wall in T1 or the hairpin, I got SR Down and a wall penalty. Probably to prevent taking advantage of a hit by cutting the second part of the chicane, thus you can't trigger a deserved penalty like that anymore.

The times may be different for different DR classes of course.

 

[daan]

Yes the AI in GTS is too bad. The other games did it a lot better over 20 years ago. Does anyone still know "SODA Off-Road Racing" from the year 1997? Probably not because the game is very old and was not a great sales success then. The game also involved developers who are responsible for I-Racing today. It is a racing game with a track editor. The track editor is very powerful and also allows the free definition of altitude differences and banking of the curves. The really fascinating thing about the game is the self-learning AI. After a new track has been created, the game analyzes the new track for about 10 minutes and adjusts the AI to the nuances. Ten minutes on a computer from 1997, today this would be a matter of seconds. After the analysis, the AI drove on the new track surprisingly clever. The AI knows exactly how the track must be driven to be clean and fast. This data can also be used for a penalty system. Thus, the penalty system could detect exactly who is above the limits and who is not. But I also find it interesting how an automatically created AI from 1997 is better than what GTS offers over 20 years later on much better hardware.

You're assuming that a game from 1997 has the same number of variables in it's physics engine when compared to a game from 2017.

I also wouldn't place too much confidence in Papyrus' AI as the AI in Grand Prix Legends (1998) moved sideways quite often, and clearly did things that were impossible for the player to do.

 

[Dorofint]

You're assuming that a game from 1997 has the same number of variables in it's physics engine when compared to a game from 2017.

I also wouldn't place too much confidence in Papyrus' AI as the AI in Grand Prix Legends (1998) moved sideways quite often, and clearly did things that were impossible for the player to do.

I also suspect that the calculations in GTS are more complex. But for that the hardware is also much more powerful. Therefore, I believe that the approach would be useful with an automatically generated AI. The developers could then determine many parameters, e.g. where the braking points must be or which speeds are possible in the bends. This would only have to run once a week for the weekly races and the FIA race. Even if it takes an hour, that would not be a problem because you could do it in advance. The data can then be stored and queried in the race. If there is a crash and driver X has slowed significantly too late or had a cornering speed that is y% above normal, then the likelihood is high that X was the culprit. Such analyzes could improve the quality of the penalty system.
You're right with Grand Prix Legends. The AI was very good for the time but not perfect. But in NARCAR Racing 2003 from Papyrus I could find no more errors or anomalies. In GTS, the AI in singleplayer is significantly worse than Grand Prix Legends ever was. I would even say it is significantly worse than in old GT parts such as GT5.

 

[Dorofint]

Dragon Trail Seaside has destroyed my complete rating. The three hairpins are divebombers paradise. In most races it happens several times and I lose many places every time. On the one hand because after the hairpins always follow fast passages and I lost the momentum after the ramming. And on the other hand, because I often get time penalty for it. What is PD, why can not you finally do something against the divebomber? And why do I get the penalties and not the divebombers? Is it so hard to figure out that they brake too late and are way too fast on that part of the track?

 

[ASH32]

Dragon Trail Seaside has destroyed my complete rating. The three hairpins are divebombers paradise. In most races it happens several times and I lose many places every time. On the one hand because after the hairpins always follow fast passages and I lost the momentum after the ramming. And on the other hand, because I often get time penalty for it. What is PD, why can not you finally do something against the divebomber? And why do I get the penalties and not the divebombers? Is it so hard to figure out that they brake too late and are way too fast on that part of the track?

Yes I agree. This is how a normally clean driver can lose SR very quickly and why some people avoid certain tracks, like this one, Tokyo and Monza etc, slow corners with long straights (or flat out sections) afterwards is not a good combo if there are dirty drivers in that race. It's far too easy to get an unfortunate penalty when you are hit by many cars in a short space of time, which will happen if someone divebombs you off line and all the impatient drivers push their way through too, often clipping you and going off track earning you the penalty and lots of SR-.

 

[djidane57]

don't you sometimes feel you get penalties for incidents other people don't? somebody was following me through the chicane of death , i didnt even feel being tapped , the guy smashes himself into the wall and somewhat I GET THE PENALTY , and always 5 sec

 

[BaareCZ]

I've stopped playing Sport mode on my EMEA accounts completely because of the state of this (joke of a) penalty system. It is very competitive in EMEA region (cca 5x more active players then the other regions) and I'm not an alien. I can only play late afternoons and evenings and that's basically prime time. Starting mid-pack with the penalty system in this state is just a recipe for disaster. And since there haven't been any adjustments to it in a looooong time (or at least PD haven't mentioned any) I'm probably never going to play online in my region again.

 

[Keith2324]

don't you sometimes feel you get penalties for incidents other people don't? somebody was following me through the chicane of death , i didnt even feel being tapped , the guy smashes himself into the wall and somewhat I GET THE PENALTY , and always 5 sec

I think you hit the nail on the head. You said you don't "feel" you were hit. I think that is one of the main problems with the FFB in the game. A lot of the subtleties are lost and we have no idea what is going on around us at times. Yes the penalty system is broken. We have complained about this ad nauseum. But until they fix the FFB in the game, we will always have these problems. In addition, a lot of players know you can simply run up behind someone and give them a love tap then purposefully drive off the track or run into a wall. They, at this point, are simply gaming the system.

Keith.

 

[fastone371]

don't you sometimes feel you get penalties for incidents other people don't? somebody was following me through the chicane of death , i didnt even feel being tapped , the guy smashes himself into the wall and somewhat I GET THE PENALTY , and always 5 sec

The thing that really blows me away is that there are people that will actually attempt a pass thru the "chicane of death". People just dont understand that just because you may have a run on the car in front of you that does not make it a good place to pass.

 

[Ashthebash]

Been meaning to stick this up for a while. This is from the Tokyo East GR4 Race C a few weeks back, and shows someone going very much out of his way to get penalties for other people. He ended this race with a positive SR, the people around him (including me - although I got away) weren't so lucky

It is the whole race, so about 16 minutes of viewing (and very poor choosing of when to look behind!), but even giving both cars involved in an incident a penalty surely has to be better than putting up with this nonsense

Edit: I should add, this was a 'S' rank lobby for SR and personally I was at 99 going into the race

 

[Redneckchef]

Been meaning to stick this up for a while. This is from the Tokyo East GR4 Race C a few weeks back, and shows someone going very much out of his way to get penalties for other people. He ended this race with a positive SR, the people around him (including me - although I got away) weren't so lucky

It is the whole race, so about 16 minutes of viewing (and very poor choosing of when to look behind!), but even giving both cars involved in an incident a penalty surely has to be better than putting up with this nonsense

Yes, that looks about right. Had a similar short stint on Dragon trail this week. Guy ran several of us wide, bombed into turns and creates havoc with horrific driving. Most victims have red SR ratings, he gets a blue S.

 

[Mc_Yavel]

Been meaning to stick this up for a while. This is from the Tokyo East GR4 Race C a few weeks back, and shows someone going very much out of his way to get penalties for other people. He ended this race with a positive SR, the people around him (including me - although I got away) weren't so lucky

It is the whole race, so about 16 minutes of viewing (and very poor choosing of when to look behind!), but even giving both cars involved in an incident a penalty surely has to be better than putting up with this nonsense

Wow! That got me angry just by looking at the video.

 

[owoc12]

That is just insane.

 

[fastone371]

That is just insane.

Much too kind of a definition for this person.

 

[djidane57]

That is just insane.

at the very least that guy killed himself in the process

 

[BaareCZ]

Been meaning to stick this up for a while. This is from the Tokyo East GR4 Race C a few weeks back, and shows someone going very much out of his way to get penalties for other people. He ended this race with a positive SR, the people around him (including me - although I got away) weren't so lucky

It is the whole race, so about 16 minutes of viewing (and very poor choosing of when to look behind!), but even giving both cars involved in an incident a penalty surely has to be better than putting up with this nonsense

Couldn't even watch the whole thing, makes my blood boil. What an absolute 🤬.

 

[Ashthebash]

Couldn't even watch the whole thing, makes my blood boil. What an absolute 🤬.

Yeah I even didn't realise he'd tried to get me on the first lap through the little 'S' bend until watching the whole thing back. It'd be interesting to know what Polyphony think of the penalty system 'working' in that way!