Penalty system is still a piece of ***
- Thread starter sturk0167
- 149 comments
- 19,963 views
- 127
- United States
They really need to scrap the current system and go towards an AI generated model. It's clear with GTS and now GT7 that they cannot hard code this. It's simply not going to happen. All they do is swing the pendulum every time they touch it. I don't think they will do anything positive though because 1. They almost never do that for anything else the community actually asks for, and 2. only 14% of the entire player base has ever done a single sport race and only 2% have done 50, so there is VERY LITTLE incentive for them to make any sweeping change.
Basically I wouldn't go expecting miracles. Without a complete overhaul it's never going to get better and there is next to no incentive to do that. It's a hard pill to swallow but sport mode players are an EXTREME minority. The only real thing any player can do if they want to not have to deal with the crap penalty system is to get better and get into high tier lobbies. Other than that you just have to deal with it.
Basically I wouldn't go expecting miracles. Without a complete overhaul it's never going to get better and there is next to no incentive to do that. It's a hard pill to swallow but sport mode players are an EXTREME minority. The only real thing any player can do if they want to not have to deal with the crap penalty system is to get better and get into high tier lobbies. Other than that you just have to deal with it.
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- 917
- United States
EDIT: I ran a custom race on Maggiore Central Reverse and discovered yes you can teleport forwards by stopping in certain areas. I didn't gain any time that way, though. On my replay the old Supra rolls forward to about the first turn, then rolls back and vanished. I was driving the Gr. 3 Peugeot in GT7 rental livery.
I got hit six times back to back at Suzuka earlier. One driver rammed into me, I spun, and there was a pileup. Guess who got the only penalty?
Later when the races switched I got passed by four people during a yellow flag. Not a single penalty was issued. I was cruising up the hill minding my own business, bam, yellow flag, four people zoomed by two seconds later, no penalties. BUT... let them slam the brakes in front of me. outside the marked braking area, I obviously rear end them because I have nowhere to go and can't stop. I wind up with a penalty, then get pushed into that stupid barrier right before the main straight and get another penalty.
I lost an SR rank today to stupid drivers. People swing back and forth across the track, brake check others, etc. I think if your SR drops too much or too quickly you should be banned from online play for a while.
I see guys with 2-5 seconds faster qualifying times than me and assume I'm really that much slower than most of them. I'm sure most of those times are legit but a few are not. I fall somewhere in the middle of qualifying, as I expect.
I also saw the teleport cheat at Maggiore in Race B today. I've uploaded the replay and tagged it. There's no other way I can explain a ghost car just sitting there on the main straight.
The cheating is as rampant with GT7 as it is with any online game. These people know what they can get away with and how to work the penalty system.
I know there are some who play fair and hang in there against cheater after cheater and wind up doing well in the rankings. I may be able to stick it out that long, I did two decades ago with some online gaming, but rampant cheating REALLY chaps my see more...
I got hit six times back to back at Suzuka earlier. One driver rammed into me, I spun, and there was a pileup. Guess who got the only penalty?
Later when the races switched I got passed by four people during a yellow flag. Not a single penalty was issued. I was cruising up the hill minding my own business, bam, yellow flag, four people zoomed by two seconds later, no penalties. BUT... let them slam the brakes in front of me. outside the marked braking area, I obviously rear end them because I have nowhere to go and can't stop. I wind up with a penalty, then get pushed into that stupid barrier right before the main straight and get another penalty.
I lost an SR rank today to stupid drivers. People swing back and forth across the track, brake check others, etc. I think if your SR drops too much or too quickly you should be banned from online play for a while.
I see guys with 2-5 seconds faster qualifying times than me and assume I'm really that much slower than most of them. I'm sure most of those times are legit but a few are not. I fall somewhere in the middle of qualifying, as I expect.
I also saw the teleport cheat at Maggiore in Race B today. I've uploaded the replay and tagged it. There's no other way I can explain a ghost car just sitting there on the main straight.
The cheating is as rampant with GT7 as it is with any online game. These people know what they can get away with and how to work the penalty system.
I know there are some who play fair and hang in there against cheater after cheater and wind up doing well in the rankings. I may be able to stick it out that long, I did two decades ago with some online gaming, but rampant cheating REALLY chaps my see more...
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Monkdapunk
(Banned)
- 193
- Canada
It's just full of opportunistic dirty drivers... They know there's no consequence for dirty driving so they do it. That's how you have all these A/C drivers. I'll keep my B/S and know I rely on skill rather than being a douche. I often wonder about the guy that smashes his way into first all day long. Rinse and repeat. They must be mentally ill or compromised, drooling and flicking there controller so there car never stops twitching around with "muh driving aids".
- 1,380
- Deadlights with Pennywise and the Balloons
- naughty_teddy1
Nail on head mate.
That's why I think increasing payouts won't help. Some will always fall back on driving like that, many drivers aren't respectful at all and just do whatever they feel like and know to get a higher finish. And I don't buy the competitive nature of people. You can be extremely driven, ambitious, focused to win and be respectful to your fellow racers... same applies to most things in life. But you'll always have people that see things differently. I'm sure some may view being respectful to others and not doing everything possible to come out on top as weak or to nice....I don't agree with it, but certainly 'dark triad' type personalities put there who think like that.
I am (well was, until I got fed up with the penalty system) happy to finish 10th or wherever and know I've not spoilt someone else's race/experience. There's games like wrexkfest if people like getting physical all the time.
Only way I can see this significantly changing is by getting the pen system working much more accurately and effectively.
Yes you'll always have a few trolls, but many will just either be forced to adapt, or move onto something else, unless they want to finish low down the order every race.
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Monkdapunk
(Banned)
- 193
- Canada
I'm the kind of person who is very competitive but I won't have any presence in your race other than passing you. I'll wait for a good time to pass where I'm not making contact or interfering with their trajectory while also making sure I can maintain speed and hold the pass.
The worst for me is when I've climbed into the top 3 and you are having an amazing duel with someone and the adrenalines going 110% then they do some cheap last second punt on the last corner. Then I'm thinking up the mean things to type at them in the minute it takes for the race to end.
A strategy that has been working for me lately is not passing people right away especially on a straight away. Take a "sit back and watch" aproach and brake/let off the gas early. I find 7/10 times they will make mistakes right infront of you and you will have superior exit speed. I always do this when going into a corner with multiple other drivers now especially the first corner at Daytona this week.
Sadly I think the only thing that would stop dirty driving is a live service marshall that reviews and bans permanently with a license or the consequence of death involved with real cars. I had this idea of making an ultra premium online game subscription where if you mess up that's it across all games. I've been online gaming since it's inception and the amount of terrible "humans" is getting worse at an exponential rate. I can't play Wild Rift on the weekends because the litty zoomers ruin it. Haha.
- 1,380
- Deadlights with Pennywise and the Balloons
- naughty_teddy1
May give that a go, thanks. Shane yiu have to hold back like that, but it's better than the alternative. Never raced online on daytona (Road?), but can certainly imagine potential for carnage, given the nature of the 1st turn...
I'd certainly pay for your premium game, if on console. Iracing have a load of people that review races/incidents if reported don't they?
I think these things are more galling in racing games, due to nature of someone taking you out once can totally spoil the race, and with gt7 that then means waiting a fair amount of time until you can go again in another race.
With something like cod most fps's I'm aware of, the implications of a less respectful player is much more marginal, and overall impact to experience/outcome lower.
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Veinz
Premium
- 5,233
- Ontario
I thought of this thread when I read this. The penalty system is far from perfect but there are sooo many people that do this then complain about getting a penalty.
yousuckatracing.com
The Vortex of Danger is your fault
Randy Pobst is a professional racer and a really nice guy in person. Not only does he drive really fast cars in important races and do car tests for magazines, he also shows up at amateur endurance…
yousuckatracing.com
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- 917
- United States
I've noticed more and more when someone enters the vortex of danger, the game will ghost them. If their front bumper comes alongside your outside mirrors, the game will ghost you instead. This doesn't work on the xit vortex, though, so if you knock them off the track on exit, you risk a 4 second penalty.
In single player the AI will brake out of your entry vortex if it cannot bring its front bumper alongside to roughly the back edge of your front doors if you maintain a smooth racing line. If you attempt to cut them off, they will PIT you. Any contact at all that does not involve your rear bumper will usually cost you your clean race bonus, and it should be avoided in the events that always award CRB anyway.
I agree, against any opponent, it is best to sit back and wait. AI are generally slower than you and humans will crash eventually.
Even Sophy hasn't worked all of this out, and yes, sometimes she will hang back and wait for the best time to pass.
In single player the AI will brake out of your entry vortex if it cannot bring its front bumper alongside to roughly the back edge of your front doors if you maintain a smooth racing line. If you attempt to cut them off, they will PIT you. Any contact at all that does not involve your rear bumper will usually cost you your clean race bonus, and it should be avoided in the events that always award CRB anyway.
I agree, against any opponent, it is best to sit back and wait. AI are generally slower than you and humans will crash eventually.
Even Sophy hasn't worked all of this out, and yes, sometimes she will hang back and wait for the best time to pass.
- 387
- United States
- 22
- Hampshire
- Cinerus
Basically decided to get back into the game today after a few months of playing other games, many F1 22 and WRC Generations.
And in the first Daily B race I did I braked early for the hairpin corner at the end of the lap, due to there being about 4 cars squabbling in front of me, only for one of those cars to suddenly brake faster than my car that it had basically stopped on track, with no where for me to go, and hit it from behind, getting a 2 sec penalty for my troubles.
Second race managed to get up into 8th by the second lap, only to have the car I was trying to overtake shove me into the wall, which damaged my car, having me drop 4 places while they got away scot free. Then a lap later had another driver repeatedly try and ram me off the track as I went to overtake them as well, again lost a couple places and they got no penalties for it. Still the game for some reason gave me a clean race bonus for that race.
And in the first Daily B race I did I braked early for the hairpin corner at the end of the lap, due to there being about 4 cars squabbling in front of me, only for one of those cars to suddenly brake faster than my car that it had basically stopped on track, with no where for me to go, and hit it from behind, getting a 2 sec penalty for my troubles.
Second race managed to get up into 8th by the second lap, only to have the car I was trying to overtake shove me into the wall, which damaged my car, having me drop 4 places while they got away scot free. Then a lap later had another driver repeatedly try and ram me off the track as I went to overtake them as well, again lost a couple places and they got no penalties for it. Still the game for some reason gave me a clean race bonus for that race.
- 2,794
- New Plymouth
Seriously? 15 seconds?
What a joke!
It's the bull hockey way the penalty system works on wall penalties. Stupid, but there were 3 hits. Front, rear, then front again. Stupid system. Same way I got 4.5 seconds for a spin in the wet on a track where they were 1.5 each.
Meanwhile, in a worse one I saw someone end up with 45 seconds from 1 hit.
- 311
- Liverpool
Race A is terrible. It does not matter that you have been punted into the wall by someone else, it seems to be an automatic 5 seconds for each point of contact, no matter how you got there. The cars doing the punting are probably getting clean race bonus's if it is door to door banging.
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- 2,794
- New Plymouth
This is a huge problem with the way PD implements this. One way to look at it is training on crash and idiot avoidance. I got a penalty in some of my races and ended in the blender of a pack. It paid huge to alter my lines to dodge some of the unguided missiles in my lobbies. Delaying a turn in or taking a sharper earlier turn in or very much slower line to avoid someone might cost me a little time but avoid a big penalty and worse time in the race.
- 311
- Liverpool
You are right - sometimes you can drive different lines to reduce the chance. But from my experience in Race A, the first breaking point on lap 1 is often absolute carnage no matter where you are on the track. Back to back races I was torpedoed from pole position into the wall on the corner exit and with the 5 second pen' it is essentially race over. And I did nothing wrong whatsoever - no defensive line can stop that.
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- 5,100
- Nor Cal
- sturk0167
Not sure about anybody else, but this is how I handle a situation where the game completely screws me, on top of the misfortune I suffered in a racing incident, where I did nothing wrong.
Why waste the time and effort to drive around for the next 20 minutes to hopefully gain a spot or two?
Why waste the time and effort to drive around for the next 20 minutes to hopefully gain a spot or two?
- 434
- Canada
- Zero_to_oblivion
While the penalty system isn't great, I can see why it handed you the penalty in this instance.
The game tries to consider other racers actions as well as yours, although it really isn't good at it. In your example the cars in front had contact, the game would register this as a possible crash and/or incident. You have full visibility of this and so should anticipate that the involved cars may not be in full control or may be recovering, and slow down, same way you would in real life. You didn't do that and went in full throttle, not coming off of the accelerator until after the swerving car* has impacted you. The game presents the penalty as being for impact with another car or forcing another car off track, but it's effectively for not slowing down, resulting in further contact beyond the initial crash.
*To the game the swerving car may have been trying to regain control.
In real life racing, if there is a crash, the expectation is that everyone slow down and take evasive action. While this may be a game, the penalty system sticks to that principle and seems to penalize racers that go full throttle and impact cars that may be recovering from crashes themselves.
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jrbabbitt
Premium
- 3,048
- Charleston, SC
- TCR_JimyBee
This is a very well thought out explanation, bravo.
- 5,676
- United States
- rising_glass1
Wow, very good crystal-clear explanation there. That sums it up well 1000%.
- 340
- Denmark
I think you're vastly overestimating how sophisticated the penalty system is.
I believe @sturk0167 got penalized simply because the game sensed he made contact with a slower car and that the slower car left the track shortly afterwards.
- 434
- Canada
- Zero_to_oblivion
You've basically just simplified my explanation.
Here's a query; if the game doesn't register that the recovering car has just been in a crash, resulting in it slowing down, why doesn't it get a penalty for pushing @sturk0167 off track?
Why wouldn't PD try to make the penalty system follow real world rules of racing? Every other racing game that tries to simulate real world racing does.
Have you ever tested the leniency of the penalty system? Try running wide, full throttle on a corner that you know you'll get a penalty on for ignoring track limits, Tetre Rouge at La Sarthe is an example. Next run wide on the same corner, except as soon as you leave the track remove throttle and coast back on to the track. You'll find that the game doesn't give you a penalty if you don't have throttle, because you gained no advantage. Another example is if you're on the inside of a corner and get punted from behind, causing you to cut the corner - you won't get a penalty because the game has some form of situational awareness i.e. it knew you cut the corner because of the contact, you couldn't help that/it wasn't your fault.
If the penalty system were so simple that slow car 1 can hit fast car 2, push fast car 2 off of track and give them a penalty, PD would have overhauled it years ago, because that is a serious flaw - just make sure you're going slower and you can push people off track without getting a penalty!
Whereas if you stop and consider how penalties are handed out vs real world, some of them start to make more sense.
But hey, unless you want do deep dive into the actual coding, or force Kaz to talk specifics on a subject he's very tight-lipped about, this is all conjecture so it doesn't matter anyway.
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