Penalty system is still a piece of ***

  • Thread starter sturk0167
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Many aspects of it is actually easier in a game than real life because the game constantly has live data with regards to speed, braking input, location of the car(s), track limits and so much more. This data takes time to come to real world stewards, or is impossible to determine in some cases if there isn't a camera in the right place or it's a metric not measured. In the game it's tracked, it's all live.

It's obviously not easy, but they can do a whole lot better than they've managed.
You're correct that the in-game data is live, but stewarding requires human input to be accurate.

If car A and car B are coming out of the first chicane at Monza and car A intentionally slows down to force car B along side, to try to push them off track, but instead car B taps car A from behind and sends them off track unintentionally, all the data the game gets will indicate car A was slower, car B hit it and knocked it off track. That penalty falls to car B for not evading (and coming alongside car A), despite car A's malicious intent. A live human steward would call it on car A, not B, as the steward can see intent. An in-game system can't.

As much as we want to bemoan PD for not being able to program a great penalty system, we're the problem. We get emotional while racing and act like dicks and do things the game doesn't expect, all to ruin other people's races. You wouldn't see most of that behaviour IRL because it's cost a small fortune to repair the cars, only in videogames.
 
You're correct that the in-game data is live, but stewarding requires human input to be accurate.

If car A and car B are coming out of the first chicane at Monza and car A intentionally slows down to force car B along side, to try to push them off track, but instead car B taps car A from behind and sends them off track unintentionally, all the data the game gets will indicate car A was slower, car B hit it and knocked it off track. That penalty falls to car B for not evading (and coming alongside car A), despite car A's malicious intent. A live human steward would call it on car A, not B, as the steward can see intent. An in-game system can't.

As much as we want to bemoan PD for not being able to program a great penalty system, we're the problem. We get emotional while racing and act like dicks and do things the game doesn't expect, all to ruin other people's races. You wouldn't see most of that behaviour IRL because it's cost a small fortune to repair the cars, only in videogames.
Yes that's why I said "many aspects". When it comes to decision making there are always going to be circumstances that an AI can't make in the same way a human can, there will always be that opinionated decision than an AI can't emulate. But then on the flipside there are lots of incidents that it should be able to decide better.

The example in the OP for example, it should be able to determine when a car is not in a normal situation and can be passed under yellows from its position, direction it's pointing, speed etc.

Rear enders should be able to be determined as long as they've got a defined normal braking area at each corner. Then it's just a matter of checking whether the lead car was in it or not, if it wasn't then they braked too early. If they were, fault is with the person hitting them. Probably. It should also take the closing speed into account of course.

Then just lots of general incidents can surely at least be weighted towards who is in front at several key points before the corner, if the car behind is ever fully alongside at any point. Then it would look at which part of which car hit the other to come to a decent conclusion as to who is at fault.

It will never be perfect of course, but with enough live telemetry and built-in zoning areas hidden on each track and on each car I don't see how it could be so bad.

I also still don't really get why penalties are not just served at the end of the race or in pit stops, like real life. These penalty zones have always been bizarre to me. But that's another matter.
 
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You're correct that the in-game data is live, but stewarding requires human input to be accurate.

If car A and car B are coming out of the first chicane at Monza and car A intentionally slows down to force car B along side, to try to push them off track, but instead car B taps car A from behind and sends them off track unintentionally, all the data the game gets will indicate car A was slower, car B hit it and knocked it off track. That penalty falls to car B for not evading (and coming alongside car A), despite car A's malicious intent. A live human steward would call it on car A, not B, as the steward can see intent. An in-game system can't.

As much as we want to bemoan PD for not being able to program a great penalty system, we're the problem. We get emotional while racing and act like dicks and do things the game doesn't expect, all to ruin other people's races. You wouldn't see most of that behaviour IRL because it's cost a small fortune to repair the cars, only in videogames.
The game can see car A slowing down without reason. It knows the speed for that section of the track (The AI knows) and knows the positions of all other cars thus can easily tell there is no reason, no obstruction in front. Human reaction times are also no secret, if there was not enough time for the car behind to evade then he should not get a penalty.

If car B goes alongside, then the game can easily track how much room each car is giving the other car. If there is contact and one car is not left at least one car width to the edge of the track, then the car with all the room should get a penalty.

The game can see intent as it has all the inputs the driver makes. Braking on the straight without anything in front, far before the braking zone, it's a brake check.

There will always be situations that are hard to tell, in that case shared fault would be best and still deter people from making contact. But there are plenty situations the game should be able to sort out by now. Side swipes, T-Bones, pit manoevers, dive bombs, brake checks, dangerous track re-entries, all are very possible to detect.

But you are right, all the data the penalty system has been getting is, there was contact, this car went off / hit a wall / lost a position, other car must be the bad guy. Starving the penalty system of context is the problem. All the info is in the game and in lower SR the game will ghost cars that attempt dive bombs and side swipes. It can detect those already! Yet fails to penalize the correct player in higher SR where ghosting such moves doesn't happen.

In corners it's also not that difficult to determine which car is following the corner and which one is steering the wrong way or not steering to push the other car out. The AI routines can calculate what inputs are needed to make the corner, the one that deviates the most from that is more likely at fault.

A lot of emotion on the track comes from faulty penalties. A rammer not getting a penalty while touching a laggy car, brake checker, bad track re-entry, wreck from other people fighting, triggering a penalty is the fastest way to induce road rage. No penalties worked better in GT Sport to keep tempers in control. Half the problems come from incorrect penalties and incidents at the penalty zone.

Also without penalties there are real consequences, as in, people will retaliate without fear of penalties and bad apples will manage to turn the whole room against them in repeat races. It would be better if the penalty system worked so vigilante justice wasn't necessary, yet PD refuses to work on a better system. Instead they keep tweaking the old flawed system that doesn't have enough information to make any sane judgment calls.
 
This doesnt really have to do with building a dynamic penalty system that can govern correctly. He's talking about a Yellow Flag penalty.

Yellow flags have a real purpose in real live racing. They protect stranded drivers or stewards that are on or near the track. They protect drivers from debris on track. They are there to create a safe environment.

In online racing the game puts stranded cars or even cars moving way off pace into a Ghost Mode. There is no threat of debris in gaming and there is no safety issue. So why even have yellow flag penalties? They serve no in game purpose. In rank B and lower lobbies you get 2-4 yellow flags a race. Why is my race being affected by someone else going off track?
 
I haven't really seen yellows except at the last turn at Deep Forest.

The worst is when you crash and get respawned behind the flags? Cars behind you see you appear in the middle of the road then see flags. :lol:
 
I also still don't really get why penalties are not just served at the end of the race or in pit stops, like real life. These penalty zones have always been bizarre to me. But that's another matter.
I think it's because PD don't want to be severe and drive away the casual players. As the GT games are targeted at general car enthusiasts, if you pick-up a penalty and have to pit to serve it, it'll be a larger penalty than the current 1-3 second slow down, you'd be around a minute with the current pit timings.

Great for those of us that race clean, horrible for those that are learning.
 
I think it's because PD don't want to be severe and drive away the casual players. As the GT games are targeted at general car enthusiasts, if you pick-up a penalty and have to pit to serve it, it'll be a larger penalty than the current 1-3 second slow down, you'd be around a minute with the current pit timings.

Great for those of us that race clean, horrible for those that are learning.
All of those little penalties could be just added at the end of the race though. I think they were in the early days of GTS?
 
All of those little penalties could be just added at the end of the race though. I think they were in the early days of GTS?
Yeah, I think you're right. Pre-penalty zones you could either serve the penalty by slowing down or carry it to the end of the race. They left that system active in the player lobbies.
 
All of those little penalties could be just added at the end of the race though. I think they were in the early days of GTS?
It was done in a stupid way though. Penalties were rounded up 0.001 sec would become 1 sec added to your finish time, while slowing down before the finish was the most efficient way (lose far less time than the penalty amount) to get rid of the penalty. So all race finishes turned into people braking for the finish line. You had to dodge all the penalty cars at the finish.

They never did the simple thing, just add the exact amount to your finish time.

A drive through penalty at the pit would work as well, no need for that 25 sec wait. The game can calculate how fast your car should move through the pit lane to serve the time. The drive through animation is already there if you take the pit lane in a daily A or B. It's just math, although PD seems to have a lot of difficulties with basic calculations...

Penalty zones and slowing down on the track only create secondary incidents.
 
The game can see car A slowing down without reason. It knows the speed for that section of the track (The AI knows) and knows the positions of all other cars thus can easily tell there is no reason, no obstruction in front. Human reaction times are also no secret, if there was not enough time for the car behind to evade then he should not get a penalty.

If car B goes alongside, then the game can easily track how much room each car is giving the other car. If there is contact and one car is not left at least one car width to the edge of the track, then the car with all the room should get a penalty.

The game can see intent as it has all the inputs the driver makes. Braking on the straight without anything in front, far before the braking zone, it's a brake check.

There will always be situations that are hard to tell, in that case shared fault would be best and still deter people from making contact. But there are plenty situations the game should be able to sort out by now. Side swipes, T-Bones, pit manoevers, dive bombs, brake checks, dangerous track re-entries, all are very possible to detect.

But you are right, all the data the penalty system has been getting is, there was contact, this car went off / hit a wall / lost a position, other car must be the bad guy. Starving the penalty system of context is the problem. All the info is in the game and in lower SR the game will ghost cars that attempt dive bombs and side swipes. It can detect those already! Yet fails to penalize the correct player in higher SR where ghosting such moves doesn't happen.

In corners it's also not that difficult to determine which car is following the corner and which one is steering the wrong way or not steering to push the other car out. The AI routines can calculate what inputs are needed to make the corner, the one that deviates the most from that is more likely at fault.

A lot of emotion on the track comes from faulty penalties. A rammer not getting a penalty while touching a laggy car, brake checker, bad track re-entry, wreck from other people fighting, triggering a penalty is the fastest way to induce road rage. No penalties worked better in GT Sport to keep tempers in control. Half the problems come from incorrect penalties and incidents at the penalty zone.

Also without penalties there are real consequences, as in, people will retaliate without fear of penalties and bad apples will manage to turn the whole room against them in repeat races. It would be better if the penalty system worked so vigilante justice wasn't necessary, yet PD refuses to work on a better system. Instead they keep tweaking the old flawed system that doesn't have enough information to make any sane judgment calls.
Perhaps the better system would be true mechanical damage simulation at all times. People would be more careful and behave better if their cars could be damaged and end the race for them.
 
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Perhaps the better system would be true mechanical damage simulation at all times. People would be more careful and behave better if their cars could be damaged and end the race for them.
It won't stop people pushing others off the track, who then proceed to crash and wreck their car. A little side bump in a braking zone is fatal. Push the other car half on the grass and he's done. If you're lucky, they'll spin and take out the cars behind you with them :ouch:
 
It won't stop people pushing others off the track, who then proceed to crash and wreck their car. A little side bump in a braking zone is fatal. Push the other car half on the grass and he's done. If you're lucky, they'll spin and take out the cars behind you with them :ouch:
You’re probably right :(
 
The same old game tactics...
Faster drivers qualifying in the rear and bump or block just enough to get to the front with no penalties. I watched a few replays, they go into a corner hot if there's a car in front and knock them off the track just enough to slow them down... No Penalty. And they brake early at a corner if there's a car behind them every time.
 
Twice today I got a 3 second penalty for "Ignored a yellow flag".
Both times, it was a car that was spun out and off the track. What do you want me to do?
Get your stuff together, PD.
It ruined my race both times, and for no good reason.
I just want the penalty system to be removed at this point. I seriously am getting sick of the issues in this game.
The amount of times I get a penalty for something stupid is beyond words.
A car slams on the breaks in front of you so to avoid hitting them you steer into the wall. PENALTY 5 SECONDS!
A car rams you into a wall PENALTY 5 SECONDS!
A car spins out in front of you so you drive past PENALTY!

Isn't it punishment enough by crashing? So on top of that you also have to slow down? You are getting punished twice for something that wasn't your fault.
I vote to remove it into its fully working and it can judge if a penalty should be handed out. If a car slams on in front of you then the car that stopped should get the penalty. If I rammed them when the car in front slowed down properly then I should get the penalty...
 
What's this all about?
The game accused me of poor sportsmanship, apparently.
I know it isn't true, but do any of you know what they're looking at here?
Was there some lag that made the game think I rear-ended the other car.
I'm really not sure what they saw, that made them think I was the bad guy. :confused:
 
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What's this all about?
The game accused me of poor sportsmanship, apparently.
I know it isn't true, but do any of you know what they're looking at here?
Was there some lag that made the game think I rear-ended the other car.
I'm really not sure what they saw, that made them think I was the bad guy. :confused:

That's an easy one. The other car hit you at the moment he went to 6th place. After that he went back to 7th place, the game sees contact, you come out better, you must have penalty.
 
That's an easy one. The other car hit you at the moment he went to 6th place. After that he went back to 7th place, the game sees contact, you come out better, you must have penalty.

Come On Reaction GIF by MOODMAN
 
I think I made the right decision giving up on racing in Sport Mode. If that is truly how penalties are calculated then I don't want any part of it.
It's the exception, not the rule.
Normally, it doesn't happen like that. That is why I was bewildered, but I was pretty sure Sven would have an idea.
 
It's the exception, not the rule.
Normally, it doesn't happen like that. That is why I was bewildered, but I was pretty sure Sven would have an idea.
Lag might have been involved. I think that contact in the sharp right is what triggered it, it's right on the position change (him getting into 6th). The game probably saw the contact happening when he was in 6th, and then you pass which is what triggers the penalty. If you're already ahead (had he never got into 6th) then no penalty.

I only did 2 races today, penalty free. I'm playing with the ps4 crowd and it's pretty clean. No bad penalties today as it remained contact free. Well I did draft bump someone, teaming up to get past a Beetle on the straight :)
 
What's this all about?
The game accused me of poor sportsmanship, apparently.
I know it isn't true, but do any of you know what they're looking at here?
Was there some lag that made the game think I rear-ended the other car.
I'm really not sure what they saw, that made them think I was the bad guy. :confused:

That my friend is what the game thinks it's a "lunge" I had such an encounter and posted video here in another thread, and the wise members here all ruled in favor of the other guy and the consensus was that I lunged and was not in the right trying to pass on inside of the turn.
See video below...
Post in thread 'GT7 Daily Race Discussion' https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt7-daily-race-discussion.404847/post-13722404
 
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These incredible and sometimes totally unjustified penalties also ensure that the drivers are much more aggressive to share. I just had a case like this yesterday in Bathurst. Luckily nothing happened to me, but it could have ended my race.
I started as 2 in my Jaguar, followed by 2 Beetles.
Due to the cold tires being a bit critical, I still tried to withstand the beetles in the curve sectors. I already came a little far out on the uphill section, which allowed driver number 3 to overtake me. lucky for him unlucky for me. I followed this player on the descent, but due to the cold tires I was a bit too fast with less grip, the car started to swerve and I had a lot of trouble catching the car. Apparently the driver behind me touched me slightly, which I didn't even notice. He passed me and got a 4 second penalty. Very annoying for him and NOT justified in my eyes.
Then came the long straight with the penalty zone.. the car was NOT handed over there because his penalty was probably imposed too late. I followed the car in the slipstream. Then about 200 meters after the braking zone, the driver who had unfortunately received this penalty went completely into the "behave asshole" with an emergency brake, I almost hit him in the back, but a few milliseconds before I would have hit him, his car was dead to the spirit whereby I could drive through it. Very lucky for me...the other driver then lost his 4th place on the following lap and left the race. Unfortunately, such actions are provoked by such severe penalties, at least for some drivers.... On the other hand, one cannot assume that he would have driven fairly in the next few laps.
 
I just role play that I have a little Ai toto complaining to the Ai stewards every time I get a penalty, it helps
I gotta start doing that🤣🤣🤣 I'll get him some good headphones as well to smash when ai messes up right in front of you.
 
They should just ghost cars when they get remotely close to one another and just be done with it.

Problems solved.

If no ghosting, then anyone that punts or forces you off, should be ghosted and slowed down until you've passed them again, and then serve their penalty.

A PSN friend suggested that the other day and I agreed it's a good idea....especially for those times when you get punted into oblivion at biblical speeds, and find yourself in the deepest kitty litter about 3 mile off course, and they saunter off miles ahead of you with a few seconds penalty you'll never catch up with.
 
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I've seen AI drivers hit the wall and not getting any penalty in tokyo express 600pp. Not entirely sure, but it leads me to believe that the penalty system is designed only for players. Would be a bit more fair if the ai drivers were to be penalized as well.
 
They should just ghost cars when they get remotely close to one another and just be done with it.

Problems solved.

If no ghosting, then anyone that punts or forces you off, should be ghosted and slowed down until you've passed them again, and then serve their penalty.

A PSN friend suggested that the other day and I agreed it's a good idea....especially for those times when you get punted into oblivion at biblical speeds, and find yourself in the deepest kitty litter about 3 mile off course, and they saunter off miles ahead of you with a few seconds penalty you'll never catch up with.
This will not work because the bad drivers will take advantage that you can be ghosted and with this drive thru you to get the lunge pass at the corners... nothing to stop them and their behavior...
 
What's this all about?
The game accused me of poor sportsmanship, apparently.
I know it isn't true, but do any of you know what they're looking at here?
Was there some lag that made the game think I rear-ended the other car.
I'm really not sure what they saw, that made them think I was the bad guy. :confused:

I think the game thought you were supposed to give way but in that situation he was the one in the wrong for overtaking in at the wrong time.
 

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