Photo GT5 prologue VS Forza 3 Demo

[Soju]

So what you're saying is that BACKGROUNDS can be pre-rendered but a 3D building can not since a camera rotates around it instead of just inside it?

But, would the fact that you would need multiple DVD's therefore make some texture combinations impossible to achieve?

3D buildings are just a texture mapped onto a box. Imagine something like papercrafts. Nothing to do with pre-rendering

That could be an issue but I would guess games that use multiple dvds, only have the levels they use on the same dvd as the textures

 

[Seismica]

From what i have seen, very few Xbox 360 games install data on the consoles. A lot of the newer ones do sure, but in the past no, because the original Xbox 360 came with only around 256MB of hard drive space. But with the PS3, most games install large chunks of the game onto the console. MGS4 was so huge for example, that the game had to reinstall a different part of the game for each ingame chapter, to save hardrive space.

Now anyone who has ever played battlefield 2 (or even Halo 3) will know that loading times solely from a disc SUCK. You have to wait ages for the pre-rendered textures to load from the DVD. Now, if we install 75% of those textures onto the actual console, the console can read them faster. I don't know exact numbers, but loading from the hard disk is at least 10x faster than loading from the disc. And considering the figures just mentioned showing how Blu-ray is read faster, it means the PS3 can load more pre-rendered textures from both the disc and the hard drive, at a faster rate, therefore freeing up more VRAM.

But the Xbox 360 can do that too. It can read the HDD slightly faster aswell, or so i have heard. So they are about the same on this level.

But the GPU of the PS3 is faster (ever overclocked your graphics card? Its the same effect, think of the PS3 as an overclocked Xbox 360), which means you don't get that 'lag' effect when the textures on screen change, regardless of how many of the textures are pre-rendered or not. This is probably the single biggest limitation of the Xbox 360.

In my opinion, the key to better graphics is simply having a larger HDD to install the pre-rendered textures, but i'm sure theres more to it than that. So far, i think developers for the PS3 have taken advantage of this more than some of the Xbox 360 exclusive developers.

Despite reading so many theories, i still have no idea how cross-platform games are different on each console. This leads me to the conclusion that that have not ported them correctly, because there are some cross-platform games which are exactly the same on both consoles.

On another note, PCs are faster and more often than not, have more and faster VRAM, Faster and Larger processors, Faster and larger harddrives than the playstation 3. So they are better in every way. Except for cost.

 

[scandisk]

Only through Forza 3 sunglasses would anybody who raced HSR, Daytona, London or Eiger feel unimpressed.

Besides, PD puts the effort where it matters, because I can't drive a mountain.

Hell I'm even more impressed with HSR than any of the Forza 3 Tracks I've seen so far. It's a given that F3 tracks are more detailed but many of us still prefer photo realism over geometry.

 

[Devedander]

EDIT: I feel as if I may in-fact be using the term pre-rendered incorrectly as has been suggested to me by Soju. So anyone who can correct my thinking, please do.

Possibly... please explain what you think of as pre rendered.

Besides, PD puts the effort where it matters, because I can't drive a mountain.

I am always torn on this one... I wish you didn't have to choose, but between backgrounds and cars....

Well cars are the main feature of the game, so certainly they should be the shining point...

But honestly when I am racing (and I race pretty much exclusively cockpit or bumper) fine detail on opponent cars is often lost because they are moving around a lot and I am focusing on the track and their general position, not so much their detail. However I AM constantly seeing the track detail and background detail... so I want that too look good...

Yup, the solution is both look gorgeous, problem solved!

 

[Seismica]

I am always torn on this one... I wish you didn't have to choose, but between backgrounds and cars....

Well cars are the main feature of the game, so certainly they should be the shining point...

But honestly when I am racing (and I race pretty much exclusively cockpit or bumper) fine detail on opponent cars is often lost because they are moving around a lot and I am focusing on the track and their general position, not so much their detail. However I AM constantly seeing the track detail and background detail... so I want that too look good...

Yup, the solution is both look gorgeous, problem solved!

But the main problem with GT5P was the far off background textures, which have been improved, or at least by the looks of the demo on R246 they have.

As for the roads and foreground, well the roads are fine in my opinion. If tyre marks are implemented they won't be so plain on the longer races. Now spectators and trees look bad, and they don't have shadows, but that means not only can the game focus on the cars, it enables the console to process the graphics for more cars. I'd rather we didn't go back to the days of 6 car races. If its at the cost of 3D trees and background object shadows, so be it.

 

[Devedander]

From what i have seen, very few Xbox 360 games install data on the consoles. A lot of the newer ones do sure, but in the past no, because the original Xbox 360 came with only around 256MB of hard drive space. But with the PS3, most games install large chunks of the game onto the console. MGS4 was so huge for example, that the game had to reinstall a different part of the game for each ingame chapter, to save hardrive space.

Now anyone who has ever played battlefield 2 (or even Halo 3) will know that loading times solely from a disc SUCK. You have to wait ages for the pre-rendered textures to load from the DVD. Now, if we install 75% of those textures onto the actual console, the console can read them faster. I don't know exact numbers, but loading from the hard disk is at least 10x faster than loading from the disc. And considering the figures just mentioned showing how Blu-ray is read faster, it means the PS3 can load more pre-rendered textures from both the disc and the hard drive, at a faster rate, therefore freeing up more VRAM.

But the Xbox 360 can do that too. It can read the HDD slightly faster aswell, or so i have heard. So they are about the same on this level.

But the GPU of the PS3 is faster (ever overclocked your graphics card? Its the same effect, think of the PS3 as an overclocked Xbox 360), which means you don't get that 'lag' effect when the textures on screen change, regardless of how many of the textures are pre-rendered or not. This is probably the single biggest limitation of the Xbox 360.

In my opinion, the key to better graphics is simply having a larger HDD to install the pre-rendered textures, but i'm sure theres more to it than that. So far, i think developers for the PS3 have taken advantage of this more than some of the Xbox 360 exclusive developers.

Despite reading so many theories, i still have no idea how cross-platform games are different on each console. This leads me to the conclusion that that have not ported them correctly, because there are some cross-platform games which are exactly the same on both consoles.

On another note, PCs are faster and more often than not, have more and faster VRAM, Faster and Larger processors, Faster and larger harddrives than the playstation 3. So they are better in every way. Except for cost.

Hate to say it, but your post is just riddled with little inaccuracies that result in your idea being pretty much useless (I don't mean that in a mean way, just in kind of like listening to someone talk about car engines who knows just enough to sound like they know what they are talking about, but you can tell every 30 seconds or so an assumption that doesn't quite hold together gets thrown in).

 

[JakeCourtney]

The point is moot when the 360 has the best games anyway.

 

[Organ-Donor]

The point is moot when the 360 has the best games anyway.

Lol, that is when you aren't waiting for your 5th xbox replacement to arrive. Why are you even here? You are now clearly a 360 ****rider. And as far as the best games for 360...most popular doesn't = better. Its all based on opinion. 360 community is mostly hyperactive drooling 14 yr old kids with ADD anyway, they will eat any fast paced mindless game up.

 

[Simple SIM]

I was able to find higher quality pics. Some from the original post on this thread and some more you may not have seen.

These are DIGITALLY PERFECT frame grabs saved in a loss-less PNG format.

It's actually pretty amazing how close these two games are graphically.



ENVIRONMENTS

THE SHOWROOM

100% PURE INGAME PICS

 

[Seismica]

Hate to say it, but your post is just riddled with little inaccuracies that result in your idea being pretty much useless (I don't mean that in a mean way, just in kind of like listening to someone talk about car engines who knows just enough to sound like they know what they are talking about, but you can tell every 30 seconds or so an assumption that doesn't quite hold together gets thrown in).

I sort of trailed off into nothingness and forgot what my point was.

My point was the Blu-ray is all but pointless, and all it does is save the effort of changing discs every so often. But as long as they put the right stuff on each discs, you shouldn't have to change it more than once in the progression of the game.

EDIT:

That is Need for speed Prostreet, released in 2007. It looks almost as good to me. Any game can make the showroom models look good, its during the races that it matters.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Wow this is getting beaten to death. We all know, GT5's car models are miles better looking than Forza 3 (even with twice as many cars on the track). Forza 3 has better looking scenery than GT5 Prologue. GT5 (full game) will most likely have improved scenery.

 

[Simple SIM]

Wow this is getting beaten to death. We all know, GT5's car models are miles better looking than Forza 3 (even with twice as many cars on the track). Forza 3 has better looking scenery than GT5 Prologue. GT5 (full game) will most likely have improved scenery.

I don't know, GT surely has MUCH better lighting but looking at the ingame pics the car models themselves look remarkable comparable.

 

[Seismica]

I don't know, GT surely has MUCH better lighting but looking at the ingame pics the car models themselves look remarkable comparable.

Yep, that comparison took good pics of Forza and bad pics of GT. The start thread posts bad pics of Forza and good pics of GT.

You can't make a comparison when both sides are biased, you need to play a race yourself to compare the differences really. And as said many times, the car models are better in GT, background better in Forza. GT are thought to have improved background since prologue, but i doubt its by much, but Forza don't look to be improving their cars anytime soon.

 

[Organ-Donor]

I don't know, GT surely has MUCH better lighting but looking at the ingame pics the car models themselves look remarkable comparable.

I own Prologue and have played the Forza 3 demo. GT5P has much more detailed and realistic car models with stunning lighting. Forza 3 car models have a cartoonish look with bad lighting. GT5's car models are spot on when it comes to realism, detail and accuracy.

 

[Simple SIM]

Yep, that comparison took good pics of Forza and bad pics of GT. Another thread shows bad pics of Forza and good pics of GT.

You can't make a comparison when both sides are biased, you need to play a race yourself to compare the differences really. And as said many times, the car models are better in GT, background better in Forza. GT are thought to have improved background since prologue, but i doubt its by much, but Forza don't look to be improving their cars anytime soon.

I've seen FAR worse comparisons. And I don't normally like to make them, but when I saw those pics I felt they were fair. They weren't bullshots, or crappy you tube screengrabs. Those pics is Digitally perfect framegrabs with no jpg compression at all because they are loss-less PNG's

When I play GT 5P that's what it looks like and when I play the Forza demo, that's what it looks like.

Bullshots are great to look at but they aren't very representative of how the game will look when you play it. High quality ingame pics are the only way to go IMO.

 

[Organ-Donor]

I've seen FAR worse comparisons. And I don't normally like to make them, but when I saw those pics I felt they were fair. They weren't bullshots, or crappy you tube screengrabs. Those pics is Digitally perfect framegrabs with no jpg compression at all because they are loss-less PNG's

When I play GT 5P that's what it looks like and when I play the Forza demo, that's what it looks like.

Bullshots are great to look at but they aren't very representative of how the game will look when you play it. High quality ingame pics are the only way to go IMO.

If you have played both GT5 and the Forza 3 demo and still think the car models look similar in graphics you need glasses.

 

[Simple SIM]

I own Prologue and have played the Forza 3 demo. GT5P has much more detailed and realistic car models with stunning lighting. Forza 3 car models have a cartoonish look with bad lighting. GT5's car models are spot on when it comes to realism, detail and accuracy.

I own both aswell. The lighting I agree with you on, and the headlights/taillights in GT ..... you can tell they spent a LOT of time on them. But on the flip side, the tires and rims on Forza look much better to my eyes.

Scroll up a bit and take a look at the pics and let me know any major differences you notice.

And for the record, It is definitely my opinion that GT is the better looking game overall. I'm just really surprised how well forza compares. I totally didn't didn't expect to see this kind of jump in graphics from a Forza game.

 

[yeti]

Looking at your pics from a screengrab point of view - you can see the differences in "in-game" models (the rear of the Audi - the lighting inside)... the out of game models are (as you say) remarkably similar and consistent (on a different note : I didn't know that the works Cooper S had a different grille over the standard Cooper S)... although you do notice some degradation in large dark areas in Forza (look at the grills of the Audi and the Ferrari)...

However - if you were playing the game - then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't notice the differences - as you'd probably be concentrating on something else.

C.

 

[phil-t]

I don't think that Eiger is really a track that should be compared, it's got the worst tack/scenery of all tracks in GT5p...

I do agree that in normal racing views, the difference between the games is quite low even with the car models.

But where GT5/p step it up is all the non-racing times when you get some really 'wow' moments with the graphics..

T10 don't have the time/resource or experience to get the rest of it anywhere near GT levels, and for some that's important, for others it isn't..

 

[RedSuinit]

I own both aswell. The lighting I agree with you on, and the headlights/taillights in GT ..... you can tell they spent a LOT of time on them. But on the flip side, the tires and rims on Forza look much better to my eyes.

Scroll up a bit and take a look at the pics and let me know any major differences you notice.

And for the record, It is definitely my opinion that GT is the better looking game overall. I'm just really surprised how well forza compares. I totally didn't didn't expect to see this kind of jump in graphics from a Forza game.

It does look good! Not as good mind you, but pretty dang good.

 

[Simple SIM]

If you have played both GT5 and the Forza 3 demo and still think the car models look similar in graphics you need glasses.

I just can't agree with that. I don't think you are looking at them objectively. The car models are incredibly similar based on my experience and by those ingame pics aswell.

Infact if you showed someone who doesn't follow these games those pics, they won't even realize they were looking at two different games.

I had to point out the differences to my wife and she thought I was being silly. I told her to look closely at the taillights, at the rims and at the general lighting. I told her people are very serious about these kinds of comparisons online LOL. Oh I wish I had a picture of the look she gave me

 

[Organ-Donor]

I just can't agree with that. I don't think you are looking at them objectively. The car models are incredibly similar based on my experience and by those ingame pics aswell.

Infact if you showed someone who doesn't follow these games those pics, they won't even realize they were looking at two different games.

I had to point out the differences to my wife and she thought I was being silly. I told her to look closely at the taillights, at the rims and at the general lighting. I told her people are very serious about these kinds of comparisons online LOL. Oh I wish I had a picture of the look she gave me

Check your eyes. One looks cartoonish and the other looks almost photorealistic. I will leave it at that. Even Forza 3 fans can tell you there is a big difference when actually playing, they will be the first to admit the car models, lighting, and details are all in favor of GT5. You can even notice from the front outside view of the car interiors are very dark, almost black, and have no lighting in Forza 3. The scenery is a different story though.

 

[yeti]

Check your eyes.

There really is no need for the personal insults...

Whilst you may disagree with his comments (as do many others here) - let's try and have a civil discussion about it...

If you put your argument across in a sufficient manner - you may even change his mind.

C.

 

[Organ-Donor]

There really is no need for the personal insults...

Whilst you may disagree with his comments (as do many others here) - let's try and have a civil discussion about it...

If you put your argument across in a sufficient manner - you may even change his mind.

C.

Sorry but where I'm from that is far from an insult

 

[yeti]

Sorry but where I'm from that is far from an insult

You said his eyesight needed checking.

C.

 

[Organ-Donor]

You said his eyesight needed checking.

C.

Sorry if that hurt your feelings but thats far from an insult.👎

 

[Simple SIM]

Check your eyes. One looks like a cartoon and the other looks almost photorealistic. I will leave it at that. Even Forza 3 fans can tell you there is a big difference when actually playing, they will be the first to admidt the car models, lighting, and details are all in favor of GT5. You can even notice from the front outside view of the car interiors are very dark, almost black, and have no lighting in Forza 3. The scenery is a different story though.

I don't think so. The colors in the Forza demo are very vivid. But a cartoon? Have you seen the pics?

Which one of these pics looks like a "cartoon" to you? Maybe it's you who needs to rub your eyes. *sigh*

If it is your intention to run out and find the worst possible pics you can then this conversation is over. I've seen too many people do that already and believe me there are TERRIBLE pics out there for both games available for anyone who wants to use them.

Scroll back up again and take a good long look. One of those looks like a "cartoon" and the other a "photograph" to you? Please.

They look like Video games to me and I won't be mistaking either of them for reality or photographs any time soon.

Am I just getting old? Is that the problem here? LOL

 

[Organ-Donor]

I don't think so. The colors in the Forza demo are very vivid. But a cartoon? Have you seen the pics?

Which one of these pics looks like a "cartoon" to you? Maybe it's you who needs to rub your eyes. *sigh*

If it is your intention to run out and find the worst possible pics you can then this conversation is over. I've seen too many people do that already and believe me there are TERRIBLE pics out there for both games available for anyone who wants to use them.

Scroll back up again and take a good long look. One of those looks like a "cartoon" and the other a "photograph" to you? Please.

They look like Video games to me and I won't be mistaking either of them for reality or photographs any time soon.

I don't waste my time looking for comparison pics of GT and Forza. Thats just not something I do. But I have played both GT5 and Forza 3 demo firsthand and could see myself. Go to Forzamotorsport.net and look at their forum, they will even admit GT5 car models are vastly superior. You can also notice how in the Forza 3 pic it darkens out the interior of the car when looking from the front view. No lighting there what so ever. Whatever though, you have your opinions, I have mine. No need to argue.

 

[snicker3s]

I had to point out the differences to my wife and she thought I was being silly. I told her to look closely at the taillights, at the rims and at the general lighting. I told her people are very serious about these kinds of comparisons online LOL. Oh I wish I had a picture of the look she gave me

Your point does not impress me.

Women are not designed to compare these kind of things, they have other abilities like spotting Prada handbags half a mile away.

 

[Tenacious D]

BTW if you want to get into BD in general, the slower read speed of BD vs DVD hampers the use of exactly that benefit.

Actually, your information is old, and skewed a bit. The 360s DVD drive only reads a single layer DVD at 12 speed, and I don't think there has been a single layer DVD game made other than a handful in the first year.

As for PS3's GPU, the RSX has an unfair advantage because it can be set up with an SPE processor to handle graphic duties, and this is the main reason why Uncharted, Killzone and GT5 look so good.

The point is moot when the 360 has the best games anyway.

According to shooter fans, maybe. I still only have Forza 2 for my 360 because I'm not all over Halo and GEARS! And it's only in the west that the 360 does as well as it does.

As for the FW3 demo and Prologue, there may be more detail in the F3 backgrounds, but they look very "Half Life." It took a lot of replay watching to get adjusted to the CG look of the demo. Prologue on the other hand, looks stunning and realistic from the first frame...