Physics thread

[panjandrum]

Pcars notes:

OK, so today I had some time and moved to my primary rig with the T500 instead of my other rig with the G25. Both rigs and wheels exhibit the same behavior, so no difference there. All driver’s aids are set to off (Allow = None). Car setup is otherwise completely stock. This is the PC version of pcars. I tested the following cars:

• 2011 Ariel Atom 300 Supercharged
• 2011 Ariel Atom 500 V8 2011
• 1981 BMW M1 Procar
• 2009 Ford Focus RS (FF)
• 1969 Lotus 49 Cosworth V8
• 1994 McLaren F1
• 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (FR)
• 2012 Pagani Huayra
• 2013 RUF CTR3 Clubsport
• 2013 RUF CTR3 SMS-R
• 2013 RUF RGT-8
• 2014 RUF RGT-8 GT3

• (actually, I only tested 3 of the RUFs, but I can’t remember which 3 off the top of my head

None of these really produced anything I would call “lift off oversteer”. Most of them turned-in, most of them just a little, some of them a bit more, but not a single one of them started to rotate in anything other than the most mild of ways. Not a single one of them forced me to “catch the rear” unless I tapped the brakes or did the flick. The one that exhibited the most? The FF Ford Focus! So unless the FF Ford Focus exhibits more lift-off oversteer than every single RR and MR car on that list, then something in the Pcars physics is terribly, terribly wrong. It goes against every single thing I know from RL motorsports, every single thing I know from any decent racing sim. In case it was the track, I also tried a few different tracks, and found some places where I could lift-off during a turn over a crest - something which is well-known for catching RR / MR cars out. Results? Essentially nothing. I could easily perform maneuvers which should have resulted in end-flipping in pretty much any RR car, regardless of how modern.

It’s too bad, because in many ways I think pcars is pretty nice, but properly-simulated weight distribution and handling aspects thereof is absolutely crucial to any decent racing sim. (If you want to feel what a classic RR car feels like, GT4 actually does a pretty good job (it’s too forgiving “back on throttle” making the cars a too easy to “catch", but the initiation of rotation and weight through a FFB wheel are spot-on, so it gives you a pretty decent feel for how these cars drive in RL). AC also does a very good job (it’s also a bit too forgiving, having a "fudge-factor" delay off-throttle before rotation begins aggressively, even when I purposefully try to kill myself, but otherwise is reasonably good)).

I guess we won’t know for sure until we see how the YB handling is modeled in pcars. I don’t have anything close to that much power, but my chassis and suspension are basically identical, so that will give me a single point of reference were I can directly compare RL and simulated cars. But for now, everything about pcars RR/MR physics feels “about as wrong as wrong as it can get.”

I’ll try a couple tunes at some point I suppose, but really, if the sim isn’t simulating the cars handling properly right out of the box then what’s the point? I have zero interest in trying to “fix” problems that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Still, I’m looking forward to getting the YB when it becomes available, and hoping that it will prove me wrong...

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

Just curious what year is your Porsche in your avatar?

 

[Scaff]

In case it was the track, I also tried a few different tracks, and found some places where I could lift-off during a turn over a crest - something which is well-known for catching RR / MR cars out. Results? Essentially nothing.

Interesting as I've just had an F1 put me into the barriers doing just this over the crests at Zonder?

That is on the PS4 version with a pad however, but unless I was very careful over both of the crests on the track the car wasn't happy.

 

[GumShoe]

Pcars notes:

OK, so today I had some time and moved to my primary rig with the T500 instead of my other rig with the G25. Both rigs and wheels exhibit the same behavior, so no difference there. All driver’s aids are set to off (Allow = None). Car setup is otherwise completely stock. This is the PC version of pcars. I tested the following cars:

• 2011 Ariel Atom 300 Supercharged
• 2011 Ariel Atom 500 V8 2011
• 1981 BMW M1 Procar
• 2009 Ford Focus RS (FF)
• 1969 Lotus 49 Cosworth V8
• 1994 McLaren F1
• 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (FR)
• 2012 Pagani Huayra
• 2013 RUF CTR3 Clubsport
• 2013 RUF CTR3 SMS-R
• 2013 RUF RGT-8
• 2014 RUF RGT-8 GT3

• (actually, I only tested 3 of the RUFs, but I can’t remember which 3 off the top of my head

None of these really produced anything I would call “lift off oversteer”. Most of them turned-in, most of them just a little, some of them a bit more, but not a single one of them started to rotate in anything other than the most mild of ways. Not a single one of them forced me to “catch the rear” unless I tapped the brakes or did the flick. The one that exhibited the most? The FF Ford Focus! So unless the FF Ford Focus exhibits more lift-off oversteer than every single RR and MR car on that list, then something in the Pcars physics is terribly, terribly wrong. It goes against every single thing I know from RL motorsports, every single thing I know from any decent racing sim. In case it was the track, I also tried a few different tracks, and found some places where I could lift-off during a turn over a crest - something which is well-known for catching RR / MR cars out. Results? Essentially nothing. I could easily perform maneuvers which should have resulted in end-flipping in pretty much any RR car, regardless of how modern.

It’s too bad, because in many ways I think pcars is pretty nice, but properly-simulated weight distribution and handling aspects thereof is absolutely crucial to any decent racing sim. (If you want to feel what a classic RR car feels like, GT4 actually does a pretty good job (it’s too forgiving “back on throttle” making the cars a too easy to “catch", but the initiation of rotation and weight through a FFB wheel are spot-on, so it gives you a pretty decent feel for how these cars drive in RL). AC also does a very good job (it’s also a bit too forgiving, having a "fudge-factor" delay off-throttle before rotation begins aggressively, even when I purposefully try to kill myself, but otherwise is reasonably good)).

I guess we won’t know for sure until we see how the YB handling is modeled in pcars. I don’t have anything close to that much power, but my chassis and suspension are basically identical, so that will give me a single point of reference were I can directly compare RL and simulated cars. But for now, everything about pcars RR/MR physics feels “about as wrong as wrong as it can get.”

I’ll try a couple tunes at some point I suppose, but really, if the sim isn’t simulating the cars handling properly right out of the box then what’s the point? I have zero interest in trying to “fix” problems that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Still, I’m looking forward to getting the YB when it becomes available, and hoping that it will prove me wrong...

Just to be sure, were you definitely not already under-steering when attempting to initiate lift-off? I.e. if you're already understeering, the car will just do so more rather than the back get loose (I believe?).

Also, grab the setup from another sim or RL reference and apply it to pCARS and see what happens - pCARS has for many of the cars an understeer focused default setup to ensure gamepad controllability.

Sorry if already done, just eliminating factors

 

[TexasTyme214]

I think the default setups for several cars are meant to be "controller friendly," but I feel lift-off oversteer in these cars. Also, I don't recall Ben Collins or Nic Hamilton saying the same throughout development. Try the Lotus 72.

 

[panjandrum]

Just curious what year is your Porsche in your avatar?

That one is a 1980 911 SC (german import, about 20hp more than the us version). I also run a '76 Porsche 912E (poor man's 911) and a '68 VW Beetle. The '76 is also my all-season daily-drive, tons of fun in the snow and ice racing (solo events only).

So I don't have an exact match for the more modern 911 variants. Have to wait for the YB to be finished (I believe it is supposed to be coming along sometime, right?). That will give me a more accurate test.

 

[panjandrum]

Just to be sure, were you definitely not already under-steering when attempting to initiate lift-off? I.e. if you're already understeering, the car will just do so more rather than the back get loose (I believe?).

That's true depending on the situation. There are plenty of cases where you are correct; if you are understeering so badly that you have essentially zero front-end-grip, then you will not get much weight transfer, and you will simply continue to slide forward unless your front wheels manage to find some grip. This often happens on very wet surfaces, for example. In such cases I have to switch from off-throttle-oversteer (dry) to on-throttle-oversteer (wet, ice). Generally you also won't get much lift-off-oversteer when racing on frozen lakes... (Unless the ice is covered in sufficient snow to allow the front to grip enough to yadda yadda yadda.) What's great about the classic Porsche platform is that the steering is so sensitive and has so much feedback that you can nearly always tell what's going to happen based on the feel of the steering. So you don't really have to guess; you know how the chassis will behave.

However, under many circumstances the RR layout allows you to transition very promptly from understeer (on-throttle) to oversteer (off-throttle), and back. This something that I do all the time and a variety of speeds (doesn't work very well at extremely low speeds except in my Beetle, which has a swing-axle and in-which the rear swings around beautifully at almost any speed; it's phenomenal at very tight autocross maneuvers, better than the Porsches in that regard). This can allow a number of maneuvers which don't work as well (or at all) in most cars. (For example, I often allow the rear to step-out around entire high-speed sweepers. All I have to to is lift the throttle the correct amount, and the car will rotate around the entire sweeper, ending up pointing exactly where I want it to point at the exit, with my foot now completely back on-throttle and all that rear-end grip preventing wheel-spin under acceleration. So instead of having to slow-down before the sweeper, I've spent the duration of the sweeper scrubbing speed "sideways" (NOT modern-style-drifting, I am NOT spinning my rears under-throttle, that would be very bad) and then exiting the sweeper at exactly the speed and position I wish. Or, if understeering into a section where I really need to maintain momentum, instead of braking, all I may have to to is "lift then press" the accelerator. Think a single feather. Suddenly the car is pointed the direction I want, and I'm back on full-throttle.) So even if you are already understeering, as long as you have some front-end-grip remaining you can use the off-throttle maneuver to either a) kill the understeer, or b) kill yourself (if you don't know what you're doing).

Watch car 6 going into a corner starting at 7:30 in the video I posted on page 35. It looks like he gets into the corner too hot, or simply way off the proper line, and kills the understeer by lifting, lets the car rotate (almost too much!) catches it with throttle and counter-steering, and then he's back heading in the direction he wishes. The driver definitely entered that corner poorly, but it's still an excellent example of how to use of lift-off-oversteer.

 

[scubieroo]

It is no surprise that the focus has a bunch of lift oversteer given it's configuration and the fact that it only had a one way lsd ( only locks under accel, decel is open or 0% )

I would assume the setups in pcars have added preload, decel, and brake mapping to make the cars easier to drive...turn all of those to minimums and see if you find the lift oversteer you desire

 

[NLxAROSA]

What @Scaff said basically, with the only difference that i think even for setting a default you can't really do that. My CSR handles and feels a bit different than a G27, so what works for me wouldn't work for that wheel, and then you have the new thrustmaster wheels etcetera etcetera.

Which is exactly what the global/wheel settings should be for. Those should have proper defaults per wheel. 👍 Only a handful (or two) of wheels, so not a huge amount of work.

So you could expect SMS to optimize settings for each car on default, but those would feel different on each wheel anyway + it would be a big task + you have to take personal preferences into account on top of that, because one likes the wheel light and nimble and the other likes it heavy and with a lot of resistance.

Wouldn't be a big task, they have to provide defaults anyway. And per-car defaults should not be wheel-specific IMO, only user-preference. So only provide a decent default out of the box, let the user adjust if he wants to.

But right now, it's almost mandatory to change a lot of settings, or you'll be missing out. It could be compared to having to tweak the sounds because engine sounds keeps popping in and out. Shouldn't be needed IMO.

 

[drandiiski]

^Agreed! There should have been one person with the sole responsibility to make good default setups for the different wheels and cars. I don’t care if the time, money or staff was not enough – this a pretty big oversight when you’re clamming that this is the most realistic multiplatform simulation out there!

 

[GTAndy36]

What they should have done however was set some defaults per car to emulate the actual degree of feel and feedback the car has in reality (and then allow the user to tweak that), rather that simply leaving it up to the user in its entirety.

^This is what I was trying to get at.

And just for the record, you can tell that some cars handle differently and "feel heavier/numb-er/lighter" through the feedback, even with the same settings across the board.

 

[mister dog]

Wouldn't be a big task, they have to provide defaults anyway. And per-car defaults should not be wheel-specific IMO, only user-preference.

Not saying car defaults should be wheel specific, but my hunch is they already are because there are slight differences from wheel to wheel, not because of the game's FFB.

So only provide a decent default out of the box, let the user adjust if he wants to.

That's more or less what we can do now although there are also body and Sop changes which could be dumped IMO as it's the Fy,x,z and Mz sliders that make the biggest difference (on my wheel at least).

But right now, it's almost mandatory to change a lot of settings, or you'll be missing out. It could be compared to having to tweak the sounds because engine sounds keeps popping in and out. Shouldn't be needed IMO.

Well you need to search, expirement and tweak a lot but it's quite rewarding to hit the sweet spot , if the options weren't so expansive i guess you would have less chance of reaching it.

@panjandrum have you played around with the diff settings already, to see if lift off oversteer can be generated?

 

[GTAndy36]

Well you need to search, expirement and tweak a lot but it's quite rewarding to hit the sweet spot , if the options weren't so expansive i guess you would have less chance of reaching it.

Every other racing sim proves this is not really true.

 

[mister dog]

Every other racing sim proves this is not really true.

Which games you talking about then?

 

[GTAndy36]

Which games you talking about then?

All of them.

Assetto, RaceRoom, iRacing, Game Stock Car... you name it... all far simpler and all with good to great feedback.

 

[mister dog]

All of them.

Assetto, RaceRoom, iRacing, Game Stock Car... you name it... all far simpler and all with good to great feedback.

I own the first 2, and with AC i wasn't able to dial in the feeling of the FFB as good as i could in PCARS so far. in R3R I did hit a sweet spot but that has a huge list of options just like PCARS, so that proves my point again

 

[GTAndy36]

in R3R I did hit a sweet spot but that has a huge list of options just like PCARS, so that proves my point again

Um... no. It doesn't. Nothing has a FFB options list like PCars.

BTW, I'm happy that Project CARS is working for you. I am, it proves you can get good feel out of it if you've got the right setup, and the right gear.

I just don't understand why such a vast FFB setup is needed, ESPECIALLY changing force feedback per car. The cars should naturally feel different, they shouldn't need to be made to feel different by us. Going through car by car and changing everything is a massive waste of time that should be spent enjoying the racing.

 

[mister dog]

Um... no. It doesn't. Nothing has a FFB options list like PCars.

BTW, I'm happy that Project CARS is working for you. I am, it proves you can get good feel out of it if you've got the right setup, and the right gear.

I just don't understand why such a vast FFB setup is needed, ESPECIALLY changing force feedback per car. The cars should naturally feel different, they shouldn't need to be made to feel different by us. Going through car by car and changing everything is a massive waste of time that should be spent enjoying the racing.

Check this:

http://s35.photobucket.com/user/MiKeAhOwSkI/media/rreffb_zpsqquyulnz.jpg.html

Quite expansive indeed, but with no FFB tuning per car you can only dial in a general one, which won't feel 100% correct for every car.

 

[Scaff]

Watch car 6 going into a corner starting at 7:30 in the video I posted on page 35. It looks like he gets into the corner too hot, or simply way off the proper line, and kills the understeer by lifting, lets the car rotate (almost too much!) catches it with throttle and counter-steering, and then he's back heading in the direction he wishes. The driver definitely entered that corner poorly, but it's still an excellent example of how to use of lift-off-oversteer.

I think its unrealistic to expect any of the cars you have tried so far to display anything close to that degree of lift off oversteer, even the Clio V6 Mk1 (which has a reputation for it) in reality isn't that 'overtseery' (I speak from experience) on lift off, the V6 however is far harder to catch once it goes (stupidly short wheelbase and narrow track).

You comment earlier about the Focus RS is interesting however as we are currently in an age when manufacturers are doing all they can to minimise lift off oversteer in pretty much everything that isn't a hot hatch, to the point that in a recent Evo group tests they even asked if the engineered in lift off oversteer in FF hot hatches had got to the point of too much?

I think your right that we will have to wait for the Yellowbird to know for sure (or the Clio V6 - now that would be a nice addition).

^This is what I was trying to get at.

And just for the record, you can tell that some cars handle differently and "feel heavier/numb-er/lighter" through the feedback, even with the same settings across the board.

You can feel some of it globally, even with a controller, which is great. That however doesn't change the fact that you are still going to get some traits that would need to be managed on an individual basis and being able to tweak these is an advantage not a disadvantage in my view.

 

[GTAndy36]

Quite expansive indeed, but with no FFB tuning per car you can only dial in a general one, which won't feel 100% correct for every car.

Dude, how can it not feel correct?

Look. Force Feedback should tell you what the cars are doing. It's supposed to be general for all cars. Each car will then feel different naturally, due to the physics engine. What is so difficult to understand about that?!

You shouldn't need to tell the force feedback for one car to be lighter on turn in, and on another car be heavier. It should do that regardless of your settings. A lighter turn in should be physics based, not force feedback setting based.

Put simply, Force Feedback should be the games way of translating to you what the physics are doing. Nothing more. If you start fiddling with each car individually in a force feedback sense, you are directly changing how the physics translate to yourself. How in any way can this be a 'realistic' interpretation of the physics if you're essentially changing its translation on every car?

You can feel some of it globally, even with a controller, which is great. That however doesn't change the fact that you are still going to get some traits that would need to be managed on an individual basis and being able to tweak these is an advantage not a disadvantage in my view.

Why should you need to manage car traits on a force feedback basis? Surely that's what the cars physical setup settings should be used for...

 

[Scaff]

Why should you need to manage car traits on a force feedback basis? Surely that's what the cars physical setup settings should be used for...

You shouldn't need to (as I have already said) but you should be able to.

It's little different to being able to change any other part of a car's set-up.

My Alfa (and many, many other modern cars I have driven) have an option to change the throttle and steering feel, weight and response. That's in a mass produced road car and simply allows, in the case of the Alfa, to switch between three preset maps, the options you have to change this kind of behavior in a race car go far beyond that.

That they should already be set to a 'default' per car I quite agree with, that we should not be able to/need to change these I don't agree with. I can do so to a limited degree in my road car (and they make a very noticeable difference to steering feel and weight), why shouldn't I be able to in a sim if I wish?

 

[GTAndy36]

You shouldn't need to (as I have already said) but you should be able to.

It's little different to being able to change any other part of a car's set-up.

My Alfa (and many, many other modern cars I have driven) have an option to change the throttle and steering feel, weight and response. That's in a mass produced road car and simply allows, in the case of the Alfa, to switch between three preset maps, the options you have to change this kind of behavior in a race car go far beyond that.

That they should already be set to a 'default' per car I quite agree with, that we should not be able to/need to change these I don't agree with. I can do so to a limited degree in my road car (and they make a very noticeable difference to steering feel and weight), why shouldn't I be able to in a sim if I wish?

Ok, that's cool. I did not realise you could do such stuff... especially in road cars.

However, individual car changes really should be limited to specific things, not critical force feedback settings which change the way the game is translating it's physics. And by that, I mean all the mechanical things that are happening with the car at any given moment. Making the steering a little lighter or stiffer can then be added over the top if someone wishes, but again I state that being able to change the physical properties of how a car reacts to certain situations can't be right if the game is wanting to be a simulator.

 

[mister dog]

Dude, how can it not feel correct?

Because it doesn't bro; for example in PCARS with some of the older cars the steering felt too light, whilst it was way too heavy in modern cars with power steering. I also had to up scales to feel the back end stepping out, and have better rumble on kerbs and bumps.

Look. Force Feedback should tell you what the cars are doing. It's supposed to be general for all cars. Each car will then feel different naturally, due to the physics engine. What is so difficult to understand about that?!

You shouldn't need to tell the force feedback for one car to be lighter on turn in, and on another car be heavier. It should do that regardless of your settings. A lighter turn in should be physics based, not force feedback setting based.

Put simply, Force Feedback should be the games way of translating to you what the physics are doing. Nothing more. If you start fiddling with each car individually in a force feedback sense, you are directly changing how the physics translate to yourself. How in any way can this be a 'realistic' interpretation of the physics if you're essentially changing its translation on every car?

You're putting that in the context of an ideal world with an ideal racing game with ideal FFB. That simply doesn't exists due to the variables of different control inputs (AKA different wheels) + people's personal preferences.

Why should you need to manage car traits on a force feedback basis? Surely that's what the cars physical setup settings should be used for..

Tuning changes the handling, not the feedback you feel through your wheel...'What is so difficult to understand about that?!'.

 

[drandiiski]

Ok here’s a personal experience: I was doing TT on Bathurst with the Formula C, did 6-7 laps, last 5 pretty close to one another in terms of time. I did not feel that I can do much better than that. This was on default car settings with overall FFB in the game at 60%. Then I decided to just try these Jack Spades settings, now that I had a good feel of the car. Set all the settings as in his table, and overall game FFB to 100%. It was too heavy, so I lowered the scales a bit. First lap – I beat my time with 1.5 seconds! A few laps in and I was faster with almost 3 seconds! Please don’t tell me that it was just because of improved feel. It is obvious that changing the car FFB setting actually affects the car handling. And that makes the game (physics) fundamentally broken in my book!

 

[mister dog]

Ok here’s a personal experience: I was doing TT on Bathurst with the Formula C, did 6-7 laps, last 5 pretty close to one another in terms of time. I did not feel that I can do much better than that. This was on default car settings with overall FFB in the game at 60%. Then I decided to just try these Jack Spades settings, now that I had a good feel of the car. Set all the settings as in his table, and overall game FFB to 100%. It was too heavy, so I lowered the scales a bit. First lap – I beat my time with 1.5 seconds! A few laps in and I was faster with almost 3 seconds! Please don’t tell me that it was just because of improved feel. It is obvious that changing the car FFB setting actually affects the car handling. And that makes the game (physics) fundamentally broken in my book!

Again, if you drive a real life car with a broken steering wheel you won't be able to set fast times neither, but that doesn't mean this can be corrected by adjusting the suspension, tyres, engine or can it?
That is why you need the detailed bloody FFB settings... No dev. is going to get the FFB 100% right for every wheel!

 

[GTAndy36]

1) Because it doesn't bro; for example in PCARS with some of the older cars the steering felt too light, whilst it was way too heavy in modern cars with power steering. I also had to up scales to feel the back end stepping out, and have better rumble on kerbs and bumps.


2) You're putting that in the context of an ideal world with an ideal racing game with ideal FFB. That simply doesn't exists due to the variables of different control inputs (AKA different wheels) + people's personal preferences.


3) Tuning changes the handling, not the feedback you feel through your wheel...'What is so difficult to understand about that?!'.

1) Agreed... but the game should already be sorted for basic problems like that. If you're willing to slave away hours sorting out the settings that should have been default in the first place, be my guest.

2) Wrong. I'm talking logically. If the game has physical properties, the wheels should translate those physical properties ACROSS THE BOARD. Each car will then feel different naturally, because each car has different physical parameters. It shouldn't matter what wheel someone has, or what their preferences are. Generally, the main "preference" that people have is either heavy or light steering... and this could easily be done afterward.

3) Car traits and force feedback are completely different things. Have you not read what I've said before?!


I can't understand where you're coming from mate. You seem to not understand what force feedback should be. It's not about preference, or about what wheel someone has. It's the physical properties of the game, being translated through to yourself. That's it, and therefore feedback settings should be across the board, you shouldn't be able to change how one car feels compared to another in a feedback sense. Each car should feel different naturally.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Ok here’s a personal experience: I was doing TT on Bathurst with the Formula C, did 6-7 laps, last 5 pretty close to one another in terms of time. I did not feel that I can do much better than that. This was on default car settings with overall FFB in the game at 60%. Then I decided to just try these Jack Spades settings, now that I had a good feel of the car. Set all the settings as in his table, and overall game FFB to 100%. It was too heavy, so I lowered the scales a bit. First lap – I beat my time with 1.5 seconds! A few laps in and I was faster with almost 3 seconds! Please don’t tell me that it was just because of improved feel. It is obvious that changing the car FFB setting actually affects the car handling. And that makes the game (physics) fundamentally broken in my book!

I haven't yet changed FFB settings in retail version of game, just left at defaults and don't think that hinders me much. Likely it helped your confidence going into corners but doesn't change the physics.

 

[mr_serious]

...
I just don't understand why such a vast FFB setup is needed, ESPECIALLY changing force feedback per car. The cars should naturally feel different, they shouldn't need to be made to feel different by us. Going through car by car and changing everything is a massive waste of time that should be spent enjoying the racing.

I have found it useful myself. I only have an old DF Pro.

I found the settings very daunting at first and also felt there were too many options. So I did a lot of reading & worrying that I would be unable to find the "right" settings. In the end I felt the only way I was going to achieve anything was by testing myself.

I took one car, drove it hundreds of miles on it's default settings to acclimatise to the default feel, it was very rough and at about the maximum force. It was really hard work. Then I remembered I had been trying to fake some wheel resistance in an old driving game. So I turned off the logitech profilers centre spring and other settings, and did another 200 miles

Then I turned on the telemetry and watch the clipping graph. I used that to initially dial down the global tyre force. Then I played with each of the in car settings 1 by 1, driving between each etc...

With just the Fx,Fy,Fz, Mz and master scale I was able to get a fabulous amount of detail from my ageing wheel. I saved that across all setups.

Now when I go into a new car I always do some laps watching the clipping graph and have found multiple times were I have to adjust the individual vehicle to eliminate clipping.

Now I think nothing of getting into a new car and fiddling with the FFB a little.

 

[drandiiski]

So basically you are telling me that it was on feel alone. And you see I’m not convinced that is the case. I urge to try it for yourself and even then I don’t think you will agree with me, seeing how quick you are to defend the game.

 

[GTAndy36]

Again, if you drive a real life car with a broken steering wheel you won't be able to set fast times neither, but that doesn't mean this can be corrected by adjusting the suspension, tyres, engine or can it?
That is why you need the detailed bloody FFB settings... No dev. is going to get the FFB 100% right for every wheel!

Man, you really aren't understanding what force feedback is are you?

Force feedback translates the games physical properties. If you change the force feedback in the way Project CARS allows you to, you change that translation. Therefore, every single person will be playing a different translation of the physical properties to everyone else... so essentially, we're all playing a different physical rulebook. Take those properties to each car, and you can give every single car their own physical rules. Which is barmy.

We have enough problems with time differences between the different steering wheels people have. We've now got the situation where you can find x amount of time, by solely changing how the car handles through force feedback. We haven't even got onto car setups yet.