Physics thread

[ozwheels]

That's a shame as I'm thinking of getting a T300. Is it gamebreaking?

Yes it's there and no it's not game breaking. Personally I don't use the FFB like others do. I don't feel what the car is doing through the wheel and I never have. I just know what it's doing, it's hard to explain. The whole translation from real life to simulation with a wheel never really clicked for me. It just doesn't feel like your driving a real car. This isn't a pCars problem, it's just how I feel about real life vs sims.

 

[GTAndy36]

@KSaiyu It will be gamebreaking for some and not for others. You've just got to manage the best you can around it. Turning the FFB down helps for sure, but that's not ideal for someone like me that wants to feel everything that's going on with the car. Opposite to @ozwheels in that regard I suspect.

Personally, if I had anything else to race with on the PS4, I would play that. The fact is PCars is the only sim racer on PS4, means I've got to put up with it.

I know the problem isn't as bad on the PC, because you can change settings in the config, and you might be able to take it out all together in the FFB files outside of the game. But on PS4, we're stuck with it full on at 100%.

 

[Scaff]

OK did a Imperial vs Metric check last night

90kg Fuel Load - Imperial

90kgs Fuel Load - Metric

And a close up of that:

We have the worlds worst placed decimal point, nice spot @Saidur_Ali, I will update my original post to reflect this.

 

[panjandrum]

I've only had Pcars for a couple of days now, and have had quite a bit of fun. There are a lot of things I like about the physics. It's definitely a real challenge, and in many cases it "feels" very convincing. I like that it's challenging, and that the cars I've driven so far don't have such a huge "safety factor" built-in that they become both unrealistic and boring (like GT6).

But has anyone else noticed that there is ZERO lift-off oversteer in the RR and MR cars? I haven't tried them all yet, but with all aids off, even the RUFs won't step out at all on throttle-lift. Yes, if you tap the brakes they will do so, and if you do a Scandinavian flick you can also initiate it. But lift the throttle anywhere, at any speed, in any corner, and all the car does in continue to understeer. I get zero, and I do mean zero, off-throttle oversteer whatsoever... That's a pretty big problem, as my primary driving style relies on on this function (I drive, in RL and sims, like you see the drivers in in the video below doing over an over, turn after turn: purposefully allowing the rear to step-out just a tad and then allowing the entire chassis to rotate just the right amount... Watch the video, you'll see the Porsche action start around 3:20 or thereabouts). Without lift-off oversteer modeled properly that's going to be impossible to do. While my motorsports experience is in older RR models, my understanding, from everything I've read, and from other RL drivers at events, is that while the more modern RR (& MR) chassis are generally more forgiving, that they certainly do still exhibit lift-off oversteer...

Anyone else feeling this?

Oh, the video. Watch as many of the Porsche drivers let their cars rotate turn after turn after turn after turn. That's the joy of a rear-baised car!

 

[Scaff]

I've only had Pcars for a couple of days now, and have had quite a bit of fun. There are a lot of things I like about the physics. It's definitely a real challenge, and in many cases it "feels" very convincing. I like that it's challenging, and that the cars I've driven so far don't have such a huge "safety factor" built-in that they become both unrealistic and boring (like GT6).

But has anyone else noticed that there is ZERO lift-off oversteer in the RR and MR cars? I haven't tried them all yet, but with all aids off, even the RUFs won't step out at all on throttle-lift. Yes, if you tap the brakes they will do so, and if you do a Scandinavian flick you can also initiate it. But lift the throttle anywhere, at any speed, in any corner, and all the car does in continue to understeer. I get zero, and I do mean zero, off-throttle oversteer whatsoever... That's a pretty big problem, as my primary driving style relies on on this function (I drive, in RL and sims, like you see the drivers in in the video below doing over an over, turn after turn: purposefully allowing the rear to step-out just a tad and then allowing the entire chassis to rotate just the right amount... Watch the video, you'll see the Porsche action start around 3:20 or thereabouts). Without lift-off oversteer modeled properly that's going to be impossible to do. While my motorsports experience is in older RR models, my understanding, from everything I've read, and from other RL drivers at events, is that while the more modern RR (& MR) chassis are generally more forgiving, that the certainly do still exhibit lift-off oversteer...

Anyone else feeling this?

Oh, the video. Watch as many of the Porsche drivers let their cars rotate turn after turn after turn after turn. That's the joy of a rear-baised car!

Quite, quite the opposite. I use throttle lift to trim understeer and rotate the car with the CTR 3 all the time.

Thec CTR has a longer wheelbase which does reduce the level of lift off oversteer, but it's still enough to be able to trim the understeer.

 

[panjandrum]

Quite, quite the opposite. I use throttle lift to trim understeer and rotate the car with the CTR 3 all the time.

Thec CTR has a longer wheelbase which does reduce the level of lift off oversteer, but it's still enough to be able to trim the understeer.

Hey Scaff. That is so weird. I'm literally getting zero, nada. I'm currently using my G25 since I'm not at my main rig with the t500, but that shouldn't make that different. The last thing I did this evening is run around the ring a few times solo just trying to get any lift-off oversteer at all, and I can't get it to initiate without tapping the brakes or using a flick.

I'll try again tomorrow. Have you changed the setup at all? I'm running default settings except with all the driver's aids turned off... Haven't tried modifying any suspension settings yet.

 

[Scaff]

Hey Scaff. That is so weird. I'm literally getting zero, nada. I'm currently using my G25 since I'm not at my main rig with the t500, but that shouldn't make that different. The last thing I did this evening is run around the ring a few times solo just trying to get any lift-off oversteer at all, and I can't get it to initiate without tapping the brakes or using a flick.

I'll try again tomorrow. Have you changed the setup at all? I'm running default settings except with all the driver's aids turned off... Haven't tried modifying any suspension settings yet.

The only change I made to the set-up of the CTR 3 was to open the air intake for the radiators to 100%, as if you don't on the hotter circuits the engine goes bang.

Everything else on the car was left standard.

 

[drandiiski]

Yes. I know that. There's nothing wrong with the FFB. I've adjusted it to feel very good. However, no matter what I change, the Thrustmaster T300 on the PS4 has a fundamental problem, and that's the centre spring force. You can look across the forums here and on the Project CARS official forums and everyone who has the same setup as myself; PS4 + T300, will be having the exact same problem.

Humm haven’t noticed that. Like how do you test it? If the car is moving, obviously the wheel will try and center. And if the car is stopped my wheel does not center itself and that’s where I would expect to see the centering spring effect – if the wheel centers without a reason. PS4+T300 here.

 

[GTAndy36]

Humm haven’t noticed that. Like how do you test it? If the car is moving, obviously the wheel will try and center. And if the car is stopped my wheel does not center itself and that’s where I would expect to see the centering spring effect – if the wheel centers without a reason. PS4+T300 here.

When stationary, rotate the wheel fully. It should stay there. Then, slowly inch forward. The wheel will then violently centre itself... not in a slow controlled manner like you would expect a wheel to react to the front wheels.

You'll then also notice the effect whilst driving down a straight. Slowly turn the wheel 20-30 degrees, then let it go. Instead of just centering, the wheel will "spring" left and right quite violently once again.

All of this does cause issues with the feedback if it's up above 80% on the game. I've got mine set to 85% and it's bearable in most cars, but you still get moments of centering that feel unnatural.

 

[drandiiski]

I see. Thanks! Will test it. BTW not sure how much force should I use. The Jack Spades setting recommend 100% and then adjusting it per car, but some of you report this centering spring effect and other anomalies when using more than 80%.

 

[GTAndy36]

I see. Thanks! Will test it. BTW not sure how much force should I use. The Jack Spades setting recommend 100% and then adjusting it per car, but some of you report this centering spring effect and other anomalies when using more than 80%.

I use 85%, and tire force 115. That's the maximum I can use to get a natural FFB. Anything more just makes the T300 almost freeze up because of the forces it's trying to counter act. A friend of mine who has the PC version feels the same way, but he has the advantage of being able to turn down the FFB outside of the game, to allow the game to be on 100%.

 

[drandiiski]

Well I would gladly turn down the FFB to 50-60%, because I’m not a fan of too strong FFB, but the reason I’m staying at 100% is that’s what was suggested in Jacks’ settings. There was some explanation that you will lose some effects if it is lower or something like that. Need to do some more testing.

 

[GTAndy36]

I wouldn't take Jack Spade settings as gospel. Obviously, if you turn down the FFB to 50-60%, you will find it hard to feel some of what the car is doing... but by no means is it 'worse', and by no means is it impossible to change up the individual settings to give you the feel you're after. FFB is a very personal thing, some like strong feedback, some don't.

For example, I have got all my cars on the exact same settings. Reason being I find it totally ludicrous that you can change the feeling of each car so wildly just by changing force feedback settings. Games like AC and GSC are renowned for their drivability and feedback through the wheel, yet they have between 3-6 different FFB changes (that are global) between them. PCARS has what... 30+ different settings, and over half of those can be changed per car?! That's just crazy.

I've found a happy medium for the cars, and all I will change really now is the master scale for any cars that either feel too strong or too weak.

 

[drandiiski]

Agreed! Thing is that I really don’t like wasting my gaming time with settings. Hell that’s why I moved from PC to PS4, so I don’t deal with bullscrap all day. So I just use those setting and they work fine. Will do a few more tests out of curiosity. And yes – they went bonkers with the settings. Customizing options are OK, but when you have 30+ sliders with no explanation they are just a pain in the ass. 4-5 sliders should be quite enough.

 

[tka_tha]

I've only had Pcars for a couple of days now, and have had quite a bit of fun. There are a lot of things I like about the physics. It's definitely a real challenge, and in many cases it "feels" very convincing. I like that it's challenging, and that the cars I've driven so far don't have such a huge "safety factor" built-in that they become both unrealistic and boring (like GT6).

But has anyone else noticed that there is ZERO lift-off oversteer in the RR and MR cars? I haven't tried them all yet, but with all aids off, even the RUFs won't step out at all on throttle-lift. Yes, if you tap the brakes they will do so, and if you do a Scandinavian flick you can also initiate it. But lift the throttle anywhere, at any speed, in any corner, and all the car does in continue to understeer. I get zero, and I do mean zero, off-throttle oversteer whatsoever... That's a pretty big problem, as my primary driving style relies on on this function (I drive, in RL and sims, like you see the drivers in in the video below doing over an over, turn after turn: purposefully allowing the rear to step-out just a tad and then allowing the entire chassis to rotate just the right amount... Watch the video, you'll see the Porsche action start around 3:20 or thereabouts). Without lift-off oversteer modeled properly that's going to be impossible to do. While my motorsports experience is in older RR models, my understanding, from everything I've read, and from other RL drivers at events, is that while the more modern RR (& MR) chassis are generally more forgiving, that they certainly do still exhibit lift-off oversteer...

Anyone else feeling this?

Oh, the video. Watch as many of the Porsche drivers let their cars rotate turn after turn after turn after turn. That's the joy of a rear-baised car!

Maybe you were driving on cold tires.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Well I would gladly turn down the FFB to 50-60%, because I’m not a fan of too strong FFB, but the reason I’m staying at 100% is that’s what was suggested in Jacks’ settings. There was some explanation that you will lose some effects if it is lower or something like that. Need to do some more testing.

There are two options that affect overall FFB level:

1. FFB level/strength
2. Tire Force

FFB should always be kept at 100%, because lower settings reduce dynamic range of your wheel (compression effect). For many wheels, lowering FFB also increases FFB deadzone, which means that lowering your FFB to 50% may mean you end up with only 25% of effective dynamic range or so!

Instead, to achieve the same effect, reduce tire force. This will basically do the same as lowering FFB, but without reducing dynamic range.

SMS should really drop the whole FFB setting, there should be only one setting to set the master level (in this case tire force).

 

[tka_tha]

Maybe you were driving on cold tires.

Actually, I've just tested the CTR and the RGT8 with warmed up tires and found that there was no throttle lift off oversteer. The keyword here is oversteer, lift off will cause the car to turn in slightly, but it doesn't feel like the pronounced oversteer that should come with rear heavy cars at all.

PS4 T500 default settings, no TC

 

[drandiiski]

There are two options that affect overall FFB level:

1. FFB level/strength
2. Tire Force

FFB should always be kept at 100%, because lower settings reduce dynamic range of your wheel (compression effect). For many wheels, lowering FFB also increases FFB deadzone, which means that lowering your FFB to 50% may mean you end up with only 25% of effective dynamic range or so!

Instead, to achieve the same effect, reduce tire force. This will basically do the same as lowering FFB, but without reducing dynamic range.

SMS should really drop the whole FFB setting, there should be only one setting to set the master level (in this case tire force).

Ahh that’s what I was trying to remember! Thanks for explaining! But leaving it on 100% will introduce the centering spring effect (still not confirmed for me personally).

Also interesting how reducing tire force will affect overall FFB. I mean it will reduce the forces from the tires, but will it reduce the ones from SoP? Because in my understanding they are two different forces.

 

[diesel97]

Ahh that’s what I was trying to remember! Thanks for explaining! But leaving it on 100% will introduce the centering spring effect (still not confirmed for me personally).

Also interesting how reducing tire force will affect overall FFB. I mean it will reduce the forces from the tires, but will it reduce the ones from SoP? Because in my understanding they are two different forces.

If i feel the wheel is to heavy or the spring is to much i lower the Master scale and SOP scale . They both need to be the same. Works for me

 

[Scaff]

Actually, I've just tested the CTR and the RGT8 with warmed up tires and found that there was no throttle lift off oversteer. The keyword here is oversteer, lift off will cause the car to turn in slightly, but it doesn't feel like the pronounced oversteer that should come with rear heavy cars at all.

PS4 T500 default settings, no TC

I've not driven the RGT8 yet, but keep in mind that the CTR3 is not rear engined, its mid engined and everything about its design designed to reduce the chance of swapping ends. To be honest the Evo review of it reads very much like how it feels to drive in pCars.

 

[drandiiski]

I do the same. My point here is – will reducing the tire force mess up this balance between master and SoP scales. Like you will have less feedback from the tires but more from weight transfer. And in that case should you move the master and SoP together.

Of course it is very personal and subjective what is or isn’t “right”, but after all we are all trying to get the most realistic feel and at the same time to be “informed” what the physics of the car are doing, through the FFB.

 

[tka_tha]

I've not driven the RGT8 yet, but keep in mind that the CTR3 is not rear engined, its mid engined and everything about its design designed to reduce the chance of swapping ends. To be honest the Evo review of it reads very much like how it feels to drive in pCars.

I checked the CTR review, yes, it seems to describe the car's behavior in pcars. I have a Cayman S 2007 that is also very neutral to throttle lift off, I get maximum cornering when off throttle, the nose tucks nicely inwards with good feeling of g forces. The back will come out, if you really overcook it or use really rough input.

I know the RGT in pcars is not the same like the one in GT6, but with the one in GT6 you can definetly feel lift off oversteer and weight transfer.

 

[Scaff]

I checked the CTR review, yes, it seems to describe the car's behavior in pcars. I have a Cayman S 2007 that is also very neutral to throttle lift off, I get maximum cornering when off throttle, the nose tucks nicely inwards with good feeling of g forces. The back will come out, if you really overcook it or use really rough input.

I know the RGT in pcars is not the same like the one in GT6, but with the one in GT6 you can definetly feel lift off oversteer and weight transfer.

I'm going to give the RGT a go in pCars tonight, however I wouldn't use GT as a benchmark for it, reality is a much better benchmark.

Particularly give that the RGT in GT is a first gen and the one in pCars is the RGT8, which has a lighter engine, a lower centre of gravity, a totally different suspension system and is overall a much lighter car.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Ahh that’s what I was trying to remember! Thanks for explaining! But leaving it on 100% will introduce the centering spring effect (still not confirmed for me personally).

Centering spring effect? You mean oscillation?

Also interesting how reducing tire force will affect overall FFB. I mean it will reduce the forces from the tires, but will it reduce the ones from SoP? Because in my understanding they are two different forces.

Not really sure, but there are others with more expertise than I who could comment in more detail. Would have to try myself.

That said, here are my settings (PC/G27):

LT Profiler: Strength: 100% - Spring 0% - Damper 0% - Center Spring 0% - 900 degrees - game can change
Game settings: FFB 100% - Tyre Force 75% - Deadzone Removal Range 0.16

I also use Jack Spade 1.5 set 1.

 

[mister dog]

I have to agree with Scaff, rear weight bias cars have quite a lot of lift-off oversteer.

You can check that your diff preload isn't set too high and your front slow rebound isn't too stiff as both of these trim out lift off oversteer.

it's known that the default setups are on the safe side, so this makes sense. Tweaking is needed.
@panjandrum can you give this a go and let us know if it makes it work?

For example, I have got all my cars on the exact same settings. Reason being I find it totally ludicrous that you can change the feeling of each car so wildly just by changing force feedback settings. Games like AC and GSC are renowned for their drivability and feedback through the wheel, yet they have between 3-6 different FFB changes (that are global) between them. PCARS has what... 30+ different settings, and over half of those can be changed per car?! That's just crazy.

I prefer having the options to dial in the feel to your liking. That's the good thing about options those who want it can use them and those wo don't can ignore them, but if they are restricted the ones that want to dial it in simply can't.

 

[NorthwolF]

you should add this to the OP http://en.pcars.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Physics

 

[GTAndy36]

I prefer having the options to dial in the feel to your liking. That's the good thing about options those who want it can use them and those who don't can ignore them, but if they are restricted the ones that want to dial it in simply can't.

That's not true though. Those who don't want to use them can't ignore them.

If you can wildly change the feedback and make the car handle totally differently solely using the force feedback settings... how can the game claim to be realistic? If you want to change how the car feels, that should be done in the car tuning settings, where you're changing the spring rates, dampers, camber etc.

All I'm saying, is other racing sims have got along fine with a few sliders that effects all of the cars at once. You can feel what the car is doing, and you can then adjust the strength of that feedback. To me, being able to wildly change how a car handles solely through you fiddling with the car parameters (that is essentially what the individual car FFB is), isn't really the best way to go, if you're claiming to be a 'realistic simulator'. The feedback and the wheel should work together to create the 'realistic feel' all by itself. We shouldn't have to put in 20-30 hours of game time just to make the cars handle realistically.

 

[Scaff]

That's not true though. Those who don't want to use them can't ignore them.

If you can wildly change the feedback and make the car handle totally differently solely using the force feedback settings... how can the game claim to be realistic? If you want to change how the car feels, that should be done in the car tuning settings, where you're changing the spring rates, dampers, camber etc.

All I'm saying, is other racing sims have got along fine with a few sliders that effects all of the cars at once. You can feel what the car is doing, and you can then adjust the strength of that feedback. To me, being able to wildly change how a car handles solely through you fiddling with the car parameters (that is essentially what the individual car FFB is), isn't really the best way to go, if you're claiming to be a 'realistic simulator'. The feedback and the wheel should work together to create the 'realistic feel' all by itself. We shouldn't have to put in 20-30 hours of game time just to make the cars handle realistically.

Except that works on the assumption that feel and feedback via the steering is identical in every car in reality and its not. While a lot of the more direct feedback you get from a car is from the spring, rates, dampers, etc. you can easily mask a huge amount of that from the steering depending on other factors such as bushes, steering assistance type and set-up, etc.

A Caterham or Elise have a huge amount of feel and feedback via the steering, as do some track specific cars, however Audi's both on the road and track have a reputation for being very, very numb feeling. I can clearly remember driving one of the first Mondeo's with electrically assisted power steering and being able to feel nothing at all via the steering, it genuinely felt as if the steering wheel and the front wheels were not connected.

As such while pCars system is ridiculously complicated it does have at least some bearing in reality, the amount of feel and feedback you get via the steering is not, in reality, a global standard that doesn't vary from car to car.

What they should have done however was set some defaults per car to emulate the actual degree of feel and feedback the car has in reality (and then allow the user to tweak that), rather that simply leaving it up to the user in its entirety.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I agree about the defaults, not just per car but also the global settings. They could have been better out of the box and per wheel, so inexperienced users or people who just can't be bothered wouldn't need to change anything. Only then would it have been purely optional. Nothing wrong with having the ability to tune it though.

 

[mister dog]

What @Scaff said basically, with the only difference that i think even for setting a default you can't really do that. My CSR handles and feels a bit different than a G27, so what works for me wouldn't work for that wheel, and then you have the new thrustmaster wheels etcetera etcetera.

So you could expect SMS to optimize settings for each car on default, but those would feel different on each wheel anyway + it would be a big task + you have to take personal preferences into account on top of that, because one likes the wheel light and nimble and the other likes it heavy and with a lot of resistance.

Either way it's nice to have the possibility to tweak the whole thing to your liking, and it doesn't radically change the handling of the car nor the physics, but it does give you better feedback if you take the effort to search for it depending on your wheel.