Physics thread

[VBR]

Default tunes are very safe.

The default tunes should've been true to the real cars imo, not safe. Would like to have seen 3 defaults: Real, Tame, & lairy!

 

[Scaff]

The default tunes should've been true to the real cars imo, not safe. Would like to have seen 3 defaults: Real, Tame, & lairy!

For road cars I agree, for race cars less so given that no 'true' set-up exists for those given that it would have varied from track to track, driver to driver and also be affected by the weather.

I'm just glad we have tuning that has a meaningful affect on the car, rather that the effect of changes being watered down.

 

[Scaff]

Did you try with the UHP Summer tires instead of the default grippy tires?

Speaking of tyres. I can across this over at the Project Cars forum:

"The following equations aren't totally accurate, but give you the rough level:

UHP = Ultra High Performance = P Zero = really really good sports tyre for summer. Think real life Michelin Pilot Sport or Pirelli P Zero.

XR = Extreme = P Zero Corsa = super good sports tyre for summer, essentially a semi-slick. Still road legal, but you'd probably rather leave them for the track, if only for the wear and cost of getting a new set. Think real life P Zero Corsa or Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (2 particularly, which bumped up the performance a LOT compared to previous ones).

Track = P Zero Trofeo = semi-slick intended purely for track use. Might be legal on the roads somewhere in the world. Best grip. (EDIT: Though they aren't as user friendly as the others. They're much more twitchy when cold and feel quite different when warm as well, but I've always easily gotten my fastest laps with these, and they also measure the highest cornering G forces. If the car is soft enough they can also upset the suspension, throwing the body around too much. These tyres require the car to be set up for track use, a street setup doesn't like these tyres that much.)

As for the default tyres they should somewhat comply with what the real car would come with normally. As far as I understand based on the writings of Casey Ringley these should be the default tyres:

Audi R8 V10+: Faretti Extreme Summer (car often seen tested with P Zero Corsa tyres, so fits nicely)
BMW 1-Series M Coupe: Masculin XR Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, I'd swap for UHP tyres for a more OEM experience)
Ford Focus RS: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, fits nicely)
GUMPERT apollo S: Faretti Extreme Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups or at least Pilot Super Sports, so fits nicely)
McLaren 12C: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (often tested with those tyres, but it does come standard with P Zeros, so whichever is fine)
McLaren F1: McLaren F1 (really grippy modern tyres, not replicating the original early 90s rubber, those are supposed to come later. For now treat the car as if it's running the springs and dampers from the road going F1 LM special model and modern tyres)
McLaren P1: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (most commonly tested with these, though often tested with Trofeos as well. I does come standard with P Zeros though, so you can use those as well, but be prepared for a wild ride, and set the diff to open...)
Mercedes A45 AMG: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, so fits well)
Mercedes SLS AMG Coupe: Faretti Extreme Summer (car actually came with lower grip Bridgestones, pretty close to Pilot Sport level, so UHP would be more accurate OEM style for this. The SLS Black came with Pilot Sport Cups though, so fits that.)
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ-400: Masculin XR Summer (car came with Toyo Proxes R1R tyres, which are nearly semislicks, so fits well)
Pagani Huayra: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (definitely more suiting for the car considering what it's capable of, but I think the basic option is still the P Zero. Top Gear used something closer to the Trofeo though, possible even better than those...)
Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (The Zonda F at least came with P Zeros originally, hard to say about this one. Corsas suit it though, but it's more thrilling with the P Zeros.

)
Renault Megane RS 265: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or similar, so very fitting. They have run Nords laps with Pilot Sport Cups on occasion though, so those are suitable as well.)
Ruf CTR3: Faretti Extreme Summer (I found several Ruf cars tested with Pilot Sport Cup tyres, so these make sense.)
Ruf RGT-8: Faretti Extreme Summer (Like above, also the 911 GT3 is usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups, so makes even more sense.)

Daydreaming ensues: Now we just need early 90s vintage tyres for the McLaren F1, one lower grip option for the track day cars (the current tyres aren't exactly unrealistic but they replicate supremely good track tyres, something a bit more down to earth would be a nice option, or heck, even a more normal street tyre like the Yiro All-Season on the Caterham 7 Classic), and then as the final touch those track day tyre options for the Radical SR3-RS and SR8-RX (which are road legal in the UK once you add indicators). Had those at one point during development as an option and they were so insanely fun, also the SR-3 lined up decently well with the Atoms and R500 and the SR-8 was nice against the Atom V8 500. =)"
Source:http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...-INSIDE!-tyre-wear/page17&p=971606#post971606


Should help.

 

[mister dog]

Here's a post by Ian Bell i thought worth sharing, and reflects what many think about the physics:

For you, and that's totally fine, some people prefer iRacing, which is even 'slippier', that's fine also.

But if you're questioning our real life experience then you're off there. Henrik Roos 14 years ago banged on at me how all sim games slipped around too much. To underline his point he brought me to a car park and tried to do donuts in his Viper. He couldn't, even with dropping the clutch dangerously. It just would not kick the back end out. Race, or track day tyres are insanely grippy and the cars are easy to drive to about 95% of their limit.

EVERY single race driver with real experience has told us the same thing over and over.

Hence, we went from scratch attempting to mimic reality, not to feel like another sim on the market.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Here's a post by Ian Bell i thought worth sharing, and reflects what many think about the physics:

I can't stand iRacing myself, did a few laps with a car and even a few corners in, it seems you have melted the tyres to point of no grip.

 

[Zer0]

Edit. Deleted, not related to the topic.

 

[Scaff]

He probably had some factory aids still kicking, "modern" sports cars need to pull off ABS fuses or reprogram their ECUs to remove completely any form of electronic safety control tuned for road driving.

Any reason you chose to omit the most context worthy parts of the quote in question?

Lets see it in its full context shall we...

Ian Bell Actually Said (in full not the Zer0 edit)
"For you, and that's totally fine, some people prefer iRacing, which is even 'slippier', that's fine also.

But if you're questioning our real life experience then you're off there. Henrik Roos 14 years ago banged on at me how all sim games slipped around too much. To underline his point he brought me to a car park and tried to do donuts in his Viper. He couldn't, even with dropping the clutch dangerously. It just would not kick the back end out. Race, or track day tyres are insanely grippy and the cars are easy to drive to about 95% of their limit.

EVERY single race driver with real experience has told us the same thing over and over.

Hence, we went from scratch attempting to mimic reality, not to feel like another sim on the market."

Everything in bold you didn't bother to quote, yet applies a huge amount of context to the rest of the quote. You know what with it referring to Race or Track day tyres, items that are illegal for the road in most countries. You also omit the fact that every race driver they spoke to said the same thing, something that many other drivers have said in regard to other titles as well.

So you ignore two pieces of context and then post videos that would only be relevant with that context removed (as they are clearly on the road).

Oh and Henrik Roos experience with Vipers I suspect is slightly more than yours, here's one of his....

....the car he drove in the 2004 FIA GT Championship. He also drove a Viper in the Swedish GT Championship between '99 and '02 (of which he is a two times champion) and that one in the FIA GT Championship between '02 and '04. But I'm sure he has no idea at all what a Viper is like to drive on Race or Track tyres or what goes on under the hood of one. After all none of that would have come across in his years as a driver or when he then founded SimBin!

I await the normal nonsense in reply.

 

[kikie]

I haven't read this entire thread and maybe it has been covered already but I have been wondering; after reading that post from Ian Bell on projectcars's forum about the tire model (also posted above), where he also said that AC probably uses the standard Brush Tire Model, which is according certain GTP members with real life experience the best tire model?

AC's or pCars's?

 

[KSaiyu]

It wasn't that it was too hard to break the rear to start the donut, it's that it was easy to start and control it - you can't really lose the rear, over-rotate and spin out from the donut. I started off testing the RGT vs BMW to see how they responded at steady speed and what the telemetry looked like, then tried donutting and found it was really easy to do. So I tried the F1 car and got the same thing. Today I tried them in the wet (thunderstorm setting) and the least grippy tires (Slicks on F1) and made a video:



I only have RL experience donutting in the snow, but even in a car with considerably less power it was very hard to control, and required more finesse. Perhaps it's a quirk with the model, as I can't find any other issues with it and it's the best driving experience I've played on consoles since Richard Burns Rally.

 

[kikie]

Some GTP members know a little bit of my real life car control experience. The only thing I find odd but doesn't prove anything (hence me wondering) is that I can control a slide using my real life techniques, very close to the maximum slip angle in pCars but not as easily in AC.
Because these are games and can be programmed however the developers want to, I'm still curious which game is the most realistic.

 

[MortICi]

In my opinion pCars feels more natural to drive. I can't do it in AC, I have the game and I try it from time to time but it feels so canned and unnatural. It seems to me that those who like that feel praise it, and those that come from old sim tech and practices think its awesome. In my opinion its not, same with RRRE, I want to like the games but I can't do it. In RRRE the cars feel like heavy tanks that are overly twitchy and slow. Maybe its the tune maybe its something else but I just can't get myself to drive more than a lap or two in either game.

in pCars I drive like I would a real car, I do similar inputs, take similar approaches and it all feels natural. The FFB even on my G25 (after jack spade and some tweaks) feels great and I get the input I want. Exactly what the steering wheel would do in the car while driving on the track, nothing more nothing less. A physics driven FFB system based on the suspension and tires makes the whole experience better.

I dunno something about the game draws me much more, than others. Its just an exciting experience that keeps begging me for more.

Note: I still play SHIFT 2, which also uses the brush tire model with some mods to make it feel better and have what would appear more realistic grip/slip levels. Both games are my go to games based on what I want (S2U has more cars and tracks, but limited grids and no pitting/weather/time progression)

iRacing uses NTM
AC and rF/rF2 use BTM?
pCars uses a new STM

Each has pros/cons but afaik the STM tyre is the only one that doesn't break down when the tyre is standing still. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but if the tyre model breaks down when standing still, how accurate of a model is it? Meh.

The more SIM's the better in my opinion and it should push DEVs to put out an authentic experience.

At the end of the day we have to fight our minds to not judge these games by what we "expect" to be reality vs what is reality, since we don't race real cars everyday and only get to see the cars drive around on the track we can't really know if the experience is genuine. However pCars convinces me the most that the cars are behaving like real cars based on my own driving/racing experience (autox/track days).


Pick it up try it out, if you don't like it put it back. Steam has a no questions asked refund policy now, I think within 24hours you can get a full refund.

If you like AC, support the devs, buy DLC's contribute in discussion and help the game grow, same goes for race sims, not just the ones being discussed here. The freedom of choice is the best part!

 

[kikie]

I have both. AC and pCars.

Ian Bell said:

Tyres are 90-95% of the feel in the model. But seeing as you ask, suspension is next. We're unique in running a fully 3d based physics suspension model at 600Hz. It takes into account all arm lengths, joints, pivots etc for all connections based on the 3d car CAD model and therefore is accurate for MacPherson struts, trailing arms, coil overs, you name it.

Which tire model is NTM?

 

[MortICi]

Its what iRacing uses if I remember correctly (New Tire Model). I believe its based of the BTM. I dunno if its better. Never played iRacing not my cup of tea.

Either way as I mentioned pick it up, try it out and make an informed preference choice based on your real world experience and enjoy the game

Some people like apples others like oranges, it doesn't matter because its just fruit

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

It wasn't that it was too hard to break the rear to start the donut, it's that it was easy to start and control it - you can't really lose the rear, over-rotate and spin out from the donut. I started off testing the RGT vs BMW to see how they responded at steady speed and what the telemetry looked like, then tried donutting and found it was really easy to do. So I tried the F1 car and got the same thing. Today I tried them in the wet (thunderstorm setting) and the least grippy tires (Slicks on F1) and made a video:



I only have RL experience donutting in the snow, but even in a car with considerably less power it was very hard to control, and required more finesse. Perhaps it's a quirk with the model, as I can't find any other issues with it and it's the best driving experience I've played on consoles since Richard Burns Rally.

I'm not sure where you're going with this but for kicks I tried the same on rFactor 2 (rain) and Assetto Corsa (dry, doesn't have rain), which in the minds of some have the best physics/tire models. It was very easy to hold the donut - turn the wheel, dump the clutch, and easily do donuts till the cows come home. I don't know what this means other than pCARS is similar to others, or others are similar to pCARS.

 

[KSaiyu]

Thanks that's what I wanted to know (I don't play PC sims, but may if I get a new wheel)

 

[doblocruiser]

I think this belongs in here...

I have a question to all that have played different kind of sims.

What exactly defines a good sim?

I have played Gran Turismo and Forza for years and recently I start to play RACE07 and GTR2. After playing the latter I went back to GT6 (as I don't have FM anymore) and I found that the handling felt unnatural, sluggish and clumsy.

Now I wonder if it is just the difference in the handling model or do the underlying physics make me feel this difference?

When I take GTR2 for example, it plays very natural. Even with my DS3 controler, which I use to play racing games, it felt great. The car responded the way I expected it to do. I GT6 , I hate to drive the more powerfull cars because they are really difficult to control with a DS3. Of course you can say it comes down to practice but that's not completely true. How come that I can have great carcontrol and feel what the car is doing in GTR2 after a few days of playing, while in GT6 I can never get used to it? Both games I play with no assists and in GTR2 I even have ABS switched off.

FM is another great example of where cars are lovely to drive with a controller. GTR2 is a bit harder because it demands to break in a straight line, enter the corner slowly and then slowly build up power. In FM it is not like that, it's more forgiving.

Now again, more forgiving, does that mean less of a simulation or lesser physics?

All I can say for me personally is that GTR2 is easier to play, while giving me great feedback when in the car. I find GT6 much harder to play.

So what actually defines a good simulation and physics model. Does it need to be hard and difficult to control or must it come natural when driving a car?

--
Scaff's post answeres already I bit the question I have

 

[kikie]

I once read that some people think that the difficulty of controlling a race car in a sim defines the realisme, which is, according to what I once read, not true. I believe it was Simbin who said this in the days the released GTR and GT legends. A developer can make it very hard to control a race car in a sim but that doesn't mean this sim has a realistic physics and tire/suspension model.

My problem is that, although (and I'm going to mention it again, not to brag but to make my point come accross even more) I have 10 years of real life car control here and occasionally in other car control schools, I still can't say when or if cars in a sim have realistic physics/suspenion/tire model.

I need much more than just my T300RS to know if a sim is realistic or not. I need a wheel with no latency and a diameter of at least 35cm (13.8 inch), no FFB, just some resistance that I feel in a real car. A motion setup which has a 360° yaw capability. 4 actuators which acts as the suspension and get the data of the suspension of the game, on each corner of the setup, a multi montior setup and a true to life ABS simulation of the brake pedal.
The guys of the OSW are currently working on a motion setup which does exactly what I want >> simulate the force of the suspenion according data from the game.

This realisme problems is why I don't know if I should build or buy an OSW (= Open Sim Wheel). I don't know if the current race games are worth the money I have to spend on such a Direct Drive Wheel.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think this belongs in here...

I have a question to all that have played different kind of sims.

What exactly defines a good sim?

I have played Gran Turismo and Forza for years and recently I start to play RACE07 and GTR2. After playing the latter I went back to GT6 (as I don't have FM anymore) and I found that the handling felt unnatural, sluggish and clumsy.

Now I wonder if it is just the difference in the handling model or do the underlying physics make me feel this difference?

When I take GTR2 for example, it plays very natural. Even with my DS3 controler, which I use to play racing games, it felt great. The car responded the way I expected it to do. I GT6 , I hate to drive the more powerfull cars because they are really difficult to control with a DS3. Of course you can say it comes down to practice but that's not completely true. How come that I can have great carcontrol and feel what the car is doing in GTR2 after a few days of playing, while in GT6 I can never get used to it? Both games I play with no assists and in GTR2 I even have ABS switched off.

FM is another great example of where cars are lovely to drive with a controller. GTR2 is a bit harder because it demands to break in a straight line, enter the corner slowly and then slowly build up power. In FM it is not like that, it's more forgiving.

Now again, more forgiving, does that mean less of a simulation or lesser physics?

All I can say for me personally is that GTR2 is easier to play, while giving me great feedback when in the car. I find GT6 much harder to play.

So what actually defines a good simulation and physics model. Does it need to be hard and difficult to control or must it come natural when driving a car?

--
Scaff's post answeres already I bit the question I have

I think you answered your own question...

When I take GTR2 for example, it plays very natural. Even with my DS3 controler, which I use to play racing games, it felt great. The car responded the way I expected it to do

For me especially, the bold part. A Lotus 49 feels like a Lotus 49 should, powerful, scary and lacking in grip. A modern supercar by contrast, feels much more stable and grippy, which it is. A Group 5 car is like grabbing a tiger by the tail. A modern GT3 car by contrast, relatively easy to drive. In a sim the cars behave the way you expect them to, and as important, the tuning adjustments do what they are supposed to do, in real life and in the game. In GT I always felt that most cars were simply multipliers of other cars. Take a Stratos, add power and weight and you have Cizeta. Take an old GT-R, add some power and you have a new GT-R. With a single tire model with a single set of characteristics that's about what you expect and it's what you get, in console racers. Not that this is bad if you are happy with it, but sims are much more refined in this regard.

I also find a difference in the FFB between sims and other games. Much more tunable, much more road feel. You know what's happening with the car by what you get through the wheel.

 

[Zer0]

Any reason you chose to omit the most context worthy parts of the quote in question?

Lets see it in its full context shall we...

Ian Bell Actually Said (in full not the Zer0 edit)
"For you, and that's totally fine, some people prefer iRacing, which is even 'slippier', that's fine also.

But if you're questioning our real life experience then you're off there. Henrik Roos 14 years ago banged on at me how all sim games slipped around too much. To underline his point he brought me to a car park and tried to do donuts in his Viper. He couldn't, even with dropping the clutch dangerously. It just would not kick the back end out. Race, or track day tyres are insanely grippy and the cars are easy to drive to about 95% of their limit.

EVERY single race driver with real experience has told us the same thing over and over.

Hence, we went from scratch attempting to mimic reality, not to feel like another sim on the market."

Everything in bold you didn't bother to quote, yet applies a huge amount of context to the rest of the quote. You know what with it referring to Race or Track day tyres, items that are illegal for the road in most countries. You also omit the fact that every race driver they spoke to said the same thing, something that many other drivers have said in regard to other titles as well.

So you ignore two pieces of context and then post videos that would only be relevant with that context removed (as they are clearly on the road).

Oh and Henrik Roos experience with Vipers I suspect is slightly more than yours, here's one of his....

....the car he drove in the 2004 FIA GT Championship. He also drove a Viper in the Swedish GT Championship between '99 and '02 (of which he is a two times champion) and that one in the FIA GT Championship between '02 and '04. But I'm sure he has no idea at all what a Viper is like to drive on Race or Track tyres or what goes on under the hood of one. After all none of that would have come across in his years as a driver or when he then founded SimBin!

I await the normal nonsense in reply.

Oh Scaff, really?

I guess you are the only mod in this forum? Check the time of my edit. I have deleted my post for a reason, also explained in the "Report" box comment that I clicked and visible to any moderator who receive the alerts. Just at a second read, after I posted, I have noticed that the context was a Racing Viper, not a road Viper, so I removed my post as it was not related and had no problem with the original comment.

Not sure why you need to grind an axe and keep posted all that personal flamebait for a post that don't even exist, and worst of all for something that I was aware and you know that was a mistake and the reason to remove my original post. All this of course, before your reply.

 

[Scaff]

Oh Scaff, really?

I guess you are the only mod in this forum? Check the time of my edit. I have deleted my post for a reason, also explained in the "Report" box comment that I clicked and visible to any moderator who receive the alerts. Just at a second read, after I posted, I have noticed that the context was a Racing Viper, not a road Viper, so I removed my post as it was not related and had no problem with the original comment.

Not sure why you need to grind an axe and keep posted all that personal flamebait for a post that don't even exist, and worst of all for something that I was aware and you know that was a mistake and the reason to remove my original post. All this of course, before your reply.

Actually it was while I was composing my reply, as such I was only able to see that you had removed the post after I had hit submit on mine.

If you are suggesting that I waited until after you had deleted your post to make mine then you are wrong, as for my comments well you might have a point if it were not for you track record.

Thanks that's what I wanted to know (I don't play PC sims, but may if I get a new wheel)

I can confirm that in the right car donuts are not tricky at all and the better the torque to weight ratio the easier it is (and the quicker you kill rear tyres).

 

[kikie]

@Scaff which game has the best physics and tire model? AC or pCars.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff which game has the best physics and tire model? AC or pCars.

I've no tried AC so I'm not in a position to be able to answer, I am however eagerly awaiting being able to compare the two when AC comes to the PS4.

 

[kikie]

Oh, too bad. I really wanted to know your opinon.

 

[doblocruiser]

I think you answered your own question...


For me especially, the bold part. A Lotus 49 feels like a Lotus 49 should, powerful, scary and lacking in grip. A modern supercar by contrast, feels much more stable and grippy, which it is. A Group 5 car is like grabbing a tiger by the tail. A modern GT3 car by contrast, relatively easy to drive. In a sim the cars behave the way you expect them to, and as important, the tuning adjustments do what they are supposed to do, in real life and in the game. In GT I always felt that most cars were simply multipliers of other cars. Take a Stratos, add power and weight and you have Cizeta. Take an old GT-R, add some power and you have a new GT-R. With a single tire model with a single set of characteristics that's about what you expect and it's what you get, in console racers. Not that this is bad if you are happy with it, but sims are much more refined in this regard.

I also find a difference in the FFB between sims and other games. Much more tunable, much more road feel. You know what's happening with the car by what you get through the wheel.

That's seems about right. There is not a lot of difference in the handling model in GT and it seems toned down. However it doesn't explain why it's so much harder with a controller than with a wheel. Again the comparission with GTR2 shows that more advanced physics, different handling caracteristics don't mean that you need a wheel to be able to race.

In what era lies the shortcomming in GT compared to GTR2 or pCARS or even GRID AS? Is it the physics model or the handling model?

I am a bit confused.

 

[legatoblues]

I was glad to read Ian Bell's comments about the importance of the tyre model, as I have often felt that the significance is often overlooked by the gaming public. For example, iRacing has models the cars and their components quite extensively, but this doesn't mean anything if the tyre model isn't up to scratch, as the tyre model dictates the performance and the tuning directions required.

The V8 Supercar is notable in this regard, as the car was developed with significant hands-on input from a couple of real world V8SC drivers and the result was a car that, out of the box, was considered to be an excellent replication of the real thing. However, the traits of the tyre model meant that unrealistic setups yielded faster lap times, despite having a negative effect on the behaviour and handling of the car. (I use iRacing as an example because it is the sim I have the most experience with).

From my own experiences, I feel as if SMS has done an outstanding job of the tyre model and that this is the most significant factor in regards to the "how does it feel / is it realistic" question.

Now, veering in a slightly different direction, thanks to the Lotus 49 comment and the discussion on the tyre model. I haven't driven the 49 yet, but I'm very curious to know how the tyres have been handled. The tyres of that era didn't behave in the same was as modern rubber does, specifically in regards to wear and performance - the grip and speed increased the more it was driven on! Graham Hill (IIRC) once drove four consecutive Grand Prix on the same set of rubber, as this was the best way to get speed out of them.

Can anyone comment on how this translates in game? I always thought it was a curious bit of info and I've even experienced it myself in the iRacing Lotus 49, which was quite an eye-opener as I felt the car get better and better the further I went into a 250 mile race. Something like this would really lend itself to the modelling of a tyre bank, but that's a topic for another day.....

 

[ozwheels]

That's seems about right. There is not a lot of difference in the handling model in GT and it seems toned down. However it doesn't explain why it's so much harder with a controller than with a wheel. Again the comparission with GTR2 shows that more advanced physics, different handling caracteristics don't mean that you need a wheel to be able to race.

In what era lies the shortcomming in GT compared to GTR2 or pCARS or even GRID AS? Is it the physics model or the handling model?

I am a bit confused.

Gran Turismo has very very broken physics. By broken I mean when you lift or turn in the oversteer is very exaggerated. In a slow corner the cars will even spin on exit if you don't correct it. Using a controller it's harder to correct or maintain this oversteer phenomenon so it's makes the cars seem like they are harder to drive, but in reality it's the horrible physics.

 

[Zer0]

Actually it was while I was composing my reply, as such I was only able to see that you had removed the post after I had hit submit on mine.

If you are suggesting that I waited until after you had deleted your post to make mine then you are wrong, as for my comments well you might have a point if it were not for you track record.

No I'm not suggesting that. What I don't understand is why you keep your reply posted knowing of my early "Report" message explaining the reasons of the mistake and the edit. I had edited my post and had sent the "Report" message before your reply and you should be aware, even if you noticed my edit and the "Report" message hours before you posted, that your reply was not necessary as you basically are repeating with many more words the reasons of my edit. I guess that a normal moderation action in this case should be deleting all the post related or at least edit the reply in consequence since the topic does not exist and is not the discussion you originally thought.

 

[panjandrum]

Gran Turismo has very very broken physics. By broken I mean when you lift or turn in the oversteer is very exaggerated. In a slow corner the cars will even spin on exit if you don't correct it. Using a controller it's harder to correct or maintain this oversteer phenomenon so it's makes the cars seem like they are harder to drive, but in reality it's the horrible physics.

Not to defend GT6 physics, because I would never do that. I should, however, point out that cars will indeed spin at very slow speeds if you are are at the limits of the either that car's ability, or the driver's ability, or both. Go to a few autocross events (drive in them if you can), and watch cars at relatively low speeds do all kinds of crazy things, or go do them yourself.

But this is a thread about Project Cars physics, which mostly feel pretty good to me. No sim is ever going to be perfect, but right now both Pcars and AC seem to have done a very good job, while focusing on slightly different aspects. I do definitely prefer the FFB of AC over that of pcars; it's much more communicative about what's going on. However, with the Jack Spades (???) FFB tweaks pcars gets much, much better than it was out of the box.

 

[super_gt]

I bought the game three days ago and since then I am driving BMW 1M Coupe at the Nordschleife.

Flugplatz
I went wide in that corner,the left front end rear tires were entirely in the grass(the right tires were on the asphalt) and the car did not move at all(remained completely stable)

Here is the real world(skip ahead to 2:00)



The car slides(in dry)in slow speed corners (Adenauer Forst and Wehrseifen)as if I use handbrake,at the same time understeer in fast corners as Schwedenkreuz and Kesselchen(A long climb up a deep valley. Three fast left hand kinks lead into a fast charge uphill)
Also the car has zero lift off oversteer.



I drove the stock and my setup with all tires.
Logitech Driving Force GT user.

 

[Dyemonic]

... which is according certain GTP members with real life experience the best tire model?

AC's or pCars's?

One thing about any complicated mode/simulation is how much of it you use and how accurately you model it. Even if there were a "best" model (each model may have an advantage in different areas), the engineers could use the model very poorly and come up with very poor results. Sometimes simple is better for the time you have because the complicated portion may require 10x the effort for marginal gains.

Additionally, when you get to very detailed levels of modeling you can't just rely on experience but you also need physical data. Experience is always needed because something can easily be forgotten by the engineers that they do not look at, but that experience can be incorrectly gained by fudged numbers (or correctly gained!).

Tires are complicated and I don't think we will ever reach an end in modeling them. So instead of using rubber, maybe we can use a different material that has more easily modeled characteristics. Aluminum tires!