Plane crash in Southern France.

[Dennisch]

A German Wings plane, Airbus A320, has reportedly crashed. All 142 passengers and 6 crew are supposedly dead. The flight went from Barcelona to Düsseldorf.

It went down in rough terrain near the Alps.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Unsurvivable, it seems

Brief news-stub at Beeb; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32030270

And Reuters; http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/uk-france-crash-airbus-lufthansa-idUKKBN0MK0ZO20150324

 

[Joel]

Damn, shame to hear that.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Just looking at the weather radar for the area over the last few hours, looks mostly clear with 14C at ground level.

My initial thought for a cause (if accidental) in that type of area is localised icing in light cloud leading to altimeter/ASI problems. This is an Airbus, after all.

 

[Dennisch]

Last part of the flight:

Info about the plane:
Germanwings A320 D-AIPX is one of the oldest A320 with serial number 0147 and was delivered in Nov 1990.

The crash site seems to be at 2000 meter.

 

[Liquid]

2,000m? What on earth was the plane doing at just 2,000m halfway through the flight and over mountains?

I've flown with germanwings several times, they're a great airline. Horrible story.

 

[Dennisch]

2,000m? What on earth was the plane doing at just 2,000m halfway through the flight and over mountains?

I've flown with germanwings several times, they're a great airline. Horrible story.

It went down from cruising altitude at 10k and crashed at 2000m.

It reportedly also made a stop in Marseilles. It didn't.

 

[Liquid]

It went down from cruising altitude at 10k and crashed at 2000m.

Ah, okay thanks. Hm. Very strange indeed. Well, we're in that period where we don't know anything and it's nothing but conjecture but I wonder how sudden the drop from 10k to 2k was.

 

[Monatsende]

Sad story. Radio station is updating every 15 minutes...
Most people were German, over 40 Spanish people.

No further informations, 2:20 pm

 

[Dennisch]

 

[Robin]

It's a terrible tragedy and I can imagine this is surely starting to dent peoples confidence in the airline industry.

What's puzzling is the crew reported 'Emergency Emergency' rather than the standard Mayday call. Could it be that there was some instant event which totally blind-sided them to the point they didn't even carry out standard procedure?

 

[vasiliflame]

I aint ever getting on a plane now. how many is it in the last two years. i know planes crash all the time but airliners shouldn't be crashing at this rate.

 

[Dennisch]

I aint ever getting on a plane now. how many is it in the last two years. i know planes crash all the time but airliners shouldn't be crashing at this rate.

It actually is a quite calm time for plane crashes, it's just that we've had some strange cases. One shot down, another missing. And the fact that it was Malaysia Airlines twice didn't help either.

 

[vasiliflame]

It actually is a quite calm time for plane crashes, it's just that we've had some strange cases. One shot down, another missing. And the fact that it was Malaysia Airlines twice didn't help either.

I know light aircraft crash all the time. the police helicopter crashed into houses a few years back by me apparently the owner left the landing light on. But these big airliners crashing is something i haven't seen at this rate my whole life. I wonder if auto pilot was on at the time of this crash. seem's very low even at 10k over the alps due to their mad local weather systems in them areas i would assume they fly much higher.

 

[Robin]

It actually is a quite calm time for plane crashes, it's just that we've had some strange cases. One shot down, another missing. And the fact that it was Malaysia Airlines twice didn't help either.

Yeah but we also had the Air Asia one, the Trans Asia (Taiwan) one, then all the others which crash landed or overshot at airports recently.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yeah but we also had the Air Asia one, the Trans Asia (Taiwan) one, then all the others which crash landed or overshot at airports recently.

It's still a lower-than-average number as I recall. I never ever use trains, that's where the danger is (in comparison).

the police helicopter crashed into houses a few years back by me apparently the owner left the landing light on.

???

But these big airliners crashing is something i haven't seen at this rate my whole life.

This is a small airliner... and if you haven't seen higher rates of incident than you simply haven't been looking.

I wonder if auto pilot was on at the time of this crash

It wouldn't have been on at the time of impact unless for some reason the aircraft and pilots were unaware of the aircraft's position and attitude. Normally they would have either manually disengaged VNAV or the aircraft would have passed out of Autopilot automatically.

seem's very low even at 10k over the alps due to their mad local weather systems in them areas i would assume they fly much higher.

Not normally, 30,000 feet (10km) is more than adequate. I'm not aware that there was any wider weather system that might have caused problems although, as you say, there can be some strange local stuff.

What's puzzling is the crew reported 'Emergency Emergency' rather than the standard Mayday call.

That is strange. Have we heard the call or is that from a French news source? Sometimes in cases like this French reporters are unaware that "M'aidez!" is actually used by us too (Mayday).

EDIT: Just reading on live updates that a mountain guide heard the plane pass over low. No comment about the engines so it's a reasonable presumption that they were running.

Apparently the descent from C.30,000 to 6,000 (where ATC lost contact as the plane crashed) took 8 minutes. That's a descent of 3,000 feet-per-minute which is pretty steep, presuming it was consistent.

It's possible that there was a depressurisation (@Dennisch points out that this is one of the oldest Airbuses in use) and a "zoom dive" into pressurable air first then a slower descent to control/land, not a consistent 3000fpm dive.

8 minutes is a long time, I'm sure that one of the pilots or crew would have been able to contact ATC on one of the multifarious radio systems. I shouldn't be surprised if we soon hear that passengers made calls on their mobile phones.

EDIT EDIT: This from the French Civil Aviation Authority;

The crew did not send a Mayday. It was air traffic control that decided to declare the plane was in distress because there was no contact with the crew of the plane.

That's very very unusual.

 

[Keef]

Just looking at the weather radar for the area over the last few hours, looks mostly clear with 14C at ground level.

My initial thought for a cause (if accidental) in that type of area is localised icing in light cloud leading to altimeter/ASI problems. This is an Airbus, after all.

Ah, okay thanks. Hm. Very strange indeed. Well, we're in that period where we don't know anything and it's nothing but conjecture but I wonder how sudden the drop from 10k to 2k was.

It looks to me like a decompression procedure ending with an unfortunate CFIT. Trying to get below 10,000 feet in an area where the mountains are 10,000 feet is tricky business, ya know.

It's a terrible tragedy and I can imagine this is surely starting to dent peoples confidence in the airline industry.

What's puzzling is the crew reported 'Emergency Emergency' rather than the standard Mayday call. Could it be that there was some instant event which totally blind-sided them to the point they didn't even carry out standard procedure?

Mayday isn't the only thing you can say. Saying you have an emergency in any manner still counts. There are other oral options and transponder codes.

 

[Robin]

That is strange. Have we heard the call or is that from a French news source? Sometimes in cases like this French reporters are unaware that "M'aidez!" is actually used by us too (Mayday).

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world...manwings-plane-crash-france-distress-call.cnn

I'm not sure if something got lost in translation.

Mayday isn't the only thing you can say. Saying you have an emergency in any manner still counts. There are other oral options and transponder codes.

True, but surely when your piloting a commercial airliner you would use standard international approved distress calls, I don't think 'emergency emergency' is one of them. It's the equivalent of saying something in slang. Usually commercial pilots only say stuff 'off book' over radio when something horrendous is happening.

 

[2clicks]

The number of airline accidents aren't increasing, it's that now with today's technology and the world being connected, every one of them is documented. So there's not a huge number of accidents, there's just more information on each of them. But I do feel very bad for the families of the passengers who lost their lives.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It looks to me like a decompression procedure ending with an unfortunate CFIT. Trying to get below 10,000 feet in an area where the mountains are 10,000 feet is tricky business, ya know.

Absolutely, as I said my first guess was icing but then with the descent information it appears that a rapid dive may have been made (average 3,000 fpm from cruise-to-crash).

Mayday isn't the only thing you can say. Saying you have an emergency in any manner still counts. There are other oral options and transponder codes.

I've never flown in the US but, from the ATC I've listened to (sad YouTube hobby, I know) it seems that there are more variations in communication than one would expect in Europe.

That said, the French CAA (not sure of their exact name) say that they themselves called the emergency as there was no emergency contact from the plane.

EDIT: I see from @Robin's link that there was a "dramatic" airspeed drop before the descent. This definitely looks like a serious decompression event or, at the extreme, a bi-lateral fuel problem.

This model doesn't use FOHAs of the Boeing type so ice is unlikely, to cause a double flame-out one would need to either have very contaminated fuel or to have actually run out.

Something went bang either in the airframe or a passenger's baggage, I think.

 

[Dennisch]

Photos of the crash site show only tiny pieces. That thing seems to have hit the ground at full pace.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The plane began descending one minute after reaching its cruising height and continued to lose altitude for eight minutes, Germanwings managing director Thomas Winkelmann told reporters.

Strange for it to make the climb with no problems... the speed of the emergency after reaching cruise pressure still suggests a depressurisation to me.

 

[Keef]

Something went bang either in the airframe or a passenger's baggage, I think.

The plane is also 24 years old but was approved by Lufthansa for an extended lifespan.

This is an A320, a plane designed specifically for high cycle use, like the 737. And the 737 has suffered a couple high-cycle decompressions in the past, some of them explosive.

True, but surely when your piloting a commercial airliner you would use standard international approved distress calls, I don't think 'emergency emergency' is one of them. It's the equivalent of saying something in slang. Usually commercial pilots only say stuff 'off book' over radio when something horrendous is happening.

I don't think the act of declaring an emergency is as important as you think it is. Realize that it doesn't save you from your situation in any way. The only thing it does is give ATC a heads-up to move other planes out of your way so you can do what you have to do to solve the issue. For example, if you declare an emergency and choose to land at a particular airport, ATC will divert everybody else away from your flight path and from that airport to give you priority.

And keep in mind the phrase which details a pilot's order of responsbility: Aviate, navigate, communicate. A pilot's #1 priority in any situation is to control the plane. Next, he needs to know where he is and where he's going. Finally, after he's got those to covered, he can blabber something unimportant on the radio. You'll recall the Hudson river accident where the plane suffered a dual engine failure. Immediately, the pilot turned westward and chose to land in Jersey. Then he got on the radio, declared an emergency and told them where he was going, only after he'd made the decision and acted. In the mean time he decided he couldn't make the airport so he simply said he was landing in the river, and not a word after that. Too busy aviating and navigating, the only two things which might help you get out of a jam.

The point is that when you have an emergency, declaring it is actually the last thing on the list. You figure out what you're going to do first, then tell ATC your emergency and what you're going to do about it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The plane is also 24 years old but was approved by Lufthansa for an extended lifespan.

This is an A320, a plane designed specifically for high cycle use, like the 737. And the 737 has suffered a couple high-cycle decompressions in the past, some of them explosive.

Absolutely. I'm only speculating of course, and there are cases of airframe failure in much younger aircraft. A pressurised failure of some kind would fit the profile of this crash, as far as the facts so far are known.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The White House say that they have no evidence of terrorist involvement. ATC confirm that no distress signal was received from the plane. No attempt appears to have been made to steer the plane.

Given that the rule (and a pilot's instinct) is always Aviate, Navigate, Communicate it doesn't appear that they made it past the Aviate stage

 

[CodeRedR51]

Saw the video of the wreckage, that thing is literally in a million very small pieces. It simply disintegrated in mid air....

 

[Dennisch]

That would cause a large debris field. All the pieces are on 1 side of a mountain. It's more likely that it when full speed into the ground.

 

[CodeRedR51]

That would cause a large debris field. All the pieces are on 1 side of a mountain. It's more likely that it when full speed into the ground.

Didn't see an impact crater though.

 

[Vic Reign93]

Whatever caused it to crash, it had to be severe enough to fatally cripple the plane, but not so severe that it completely disintegrated immediately.

The lack of a distress signal could mean the pilots were unconscious or the there was an electrical failure and the pilots couldn't send one.

At this point, some form of explosive decompression must've happened in my opinion.

 

[InSight]

If the plane suddenly lost all power before it fell down, can black boxes still record something useful?