PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[avens]

You could build a computer that could outperform the Dreamcast back when one of the best GPUs on the market still needed a separate card for 2D hardware support? Our first computer had an Athlon 600 and a Voodoo3 3000 (after the original card it came with broke) and I don't recall being able to play anything that looked as good as the Dreamcast launch titles on it. And while maybe I'm just overestimating how good those components were in 1999, I also remember the PC version of Red Faction on a Pentium 4 2.4 Northwood with a Geforce3 being pretty much identical to the PS2 version, except the PC one had a lot shorter load times and the color of the bullet readout on the assault rifle was yellow instead of red.

Read carefully what I wrote. I acknowledged the 3d games situation specifically, which is why the statement isn't as broad as saying all console generations were surpassed by PCs before their release.

For the actual components on the 3d era, you'll have to try remembering it better. By 1999 the voodoo 3 3000, which wasn't the best you could get especially considering using 2 cards, simply destroyed n64 and beat the dreamcast.

Wolfenstein 3D was 20 years ago & Doom followed shortly after. Not sure why these two influential fps games were neglected, but it is what it is. Bioshock & other FPS(or most, if not all other types/genres of games), with the help of technical/hardware progress simply evolved the genre.

Bioshock was simply impossible to do in 1997. Wolf3d and doom are pretty bad examples actually.

So your opinion is your PC "blew the 360 and ps3 away..." based on what exactly? at what time? what game(s)?

"The best looking games we have ever seen" can be played today.... obviously.... because after all... they are the best looking games we have ever seen... we aren't time travelers now are we... we can't see the best looking games we have never seen... Pong was the best looking game we have ever seen at one point.

What you meant was that the xbox720 or ps4 will have the very best looking games we have ever seen by that time. I'm telling you they won't as they are already surpassed by PCs you can buy right now from your home. Pong era is long gone.

 

[Earth]

New PS4 spec rumors

http://kotaku.com/5977849/the-plays...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

Interesting bits about user accounts and the controller

also

kotaku claims

• System Memory: 8GB
• Video Memory: 2.2 GB
• CPU: 4x Dual-Core AMD64 "Bulldozer" (so, 8x cores)
• GPU: AMD R10xx
• Ports: 4x USB 3.0, 2x Ethernet
• Drive: Blu-Ray
• HDD: 160GB
• Audio Output: HDMI & Optical, 2.0, 5.1 & 7.1 channels

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I guess you missed the link to that on the previous page.

 

[Samus]

I am talking in the way it is usually done. They have a target to try and achieve, they know what is realistic closer and closer to when they need to finalise specifications. They can give dev kits with target performance using higher power consuming parts. I think they will be wanting better performance per watt especially regarding CPU and AMD are already working on that for a few years with new architecture designs. Console tech is not always outdated upon release, just look at the 360 with the GPU that it got, first with unified shaders and Cell CPU in PS3 which was quite a beast when it came out. Given that history, you might see latest architectures from AMD, the mid-range form first in the consoles before it hits desktops. Sure, there will be PCs out there more powerful at launch but comparing at similar thermals from same company, I think consoles will be ahead for a short while.

I don't know enough about the 360 GPU to comment but the CELL was in development for six years directly by Sony and IBM with the console in mind. It's not the same as just sticking AMDs latest and greatest in whenever it's ready.

Interesting bits about user accounts and the controller

Basically what the 360 has been doing since it's inception. Good to see they're catching up.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I don't know enough about the 360 GPU to comment but the CELL was in development for six years directly by Sony and IBM with the console in mind. It's not the same as just sticking AMDs latest and greatest in whenever it's ready.

They have targets to achieve, as partners in making console if AMD and Sony combination is true, I am sure they would have discussed what will be possible near release window frame and what they are aiming for. AMD work on design for years too you know with targets for most tiers in computing. 360 and ATI at time had latest graphics technology. I am confident due to Kaz Hirai's recent statement about not going first, that Sony will try not to make the same mistake as with the PS3 when they did not react to Microsoft especially as they had a lot of time to do so. I think that was more due to overconfidence of market share but they sure won't take it for granted this time around if they do learn their lessons. Only financial constraints I feel can restrict them this upcoming console generation depending on if Microsoft spend big.

 

[Earth]

I guess you missed the link to that on the previous page.

I over looked it. I assumed it wasnt important considering how casually it was posted

The guy who leaked those specs apparently sold a xbox Durango development kit for $21,000

Im hoping he is right. It seems a more powerful then what digital foundry or whoever reported on. 2.2 GBs of VRam is a good sign, Im hoping for at least 1.5GBs, alot of games go well over 1GB in vram usage.

Also a Bulldozer has to be an upgrade over this Jaguar technology, even if the cores are doubled.

What is an ATI R10xx?

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

What you meant was that the xbox720 or ps4 will have the very best looking games we have ever seen by that time. I'm telling you they won't as they are already surpassed by PCs you can buy right now from your home. Pong era is long gone.

The hardware specs are already surpassed. Do I need to start screaming "optimization" and "standard hardware" vs "non-optimization" and "billions of combinations."

And I have a quite capable PC; thanks.

But... So your opinion is your PC "blew the 360 and ps3 away..." based on what exactly? at what time? what game(s)?

 

[Tornado]

Read carefully what I wrote. I acknowledged the 3d games situation specifically, which is why the statement isn't as broad as saying all console generations were surpassed by PCs before their release.

An irrelevant clarification. You said "last generation," meaning PS2 era. That started in 1998 when the Dreamcast launched. What components could you put together in late 1998 that would make 3D games that looked as good and ran as well as Soul Caliber? What components could you put together in 1999 when it launched in America that would do the same, and more importantly what game took advantage of them?



Keep in mind that this was at the tailend of the era when 3DFX cards were the best for many games for no other reason than many games worked best with Glide rather than OpenGL or DirectX, meaning 3DFX had a hardware disadvantage but still produced prettier results.

For the actual components on the 3d era, you'll have to try remembering it better. By 1999 the voodoo 3 3000, which wasn't the best you could get especially considering using 2 cards, simply destroyed n64 and beat the dreamcast.

Beat it how? Which game came out in 1999 for PC that looked better than the DC launch lineup? When GT3 came out 2 years later on hardware of somewhat higher power, which PC driving game looked better than that?


Even if you don't want to ignore hardware, Voodoo2 SLI was sparsely supported at best (and rarely faster than the Voodoo3), the nVidia 256 didn't come out until the end of the year, and there were only a couple of cards that were full on better than the 3000 (the 3500 that I know came out later, and I think the TNT).

 

[avens]

I'm not sure if you were around that time, as the answers of both questions are pretty obvious. Actually all what I wrote here is a reference or keywords to search.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I over looked it. I assumed it wasnt important considering how casually it was posted

The guy who leaked those specs apparently sold a xbox Durango development kit for $21,000

Im hoping he is right. It seems a more powerful then what digital foundry or whoever reported on. 2.2 GBs of VRam is a good sign, Im hoping for at least 1.5GBs, alot of games go well over 1GB in vram usage.

Also a Bulldozer has to be an upgrade over this Jaguar technology, even if the cores are doubled.

What is an ATI R10xx?

I think the AMD R10XX is probably a 7000 series based GPU. I doubt they will use that specific version that they are currently using though. I think AMD will be pushing something more highly integrated that takes advantage of HSA like the next 8000 series Sea Islands based GPU (Performance of the actual GPU should be similar though). I think that is what must have attracted the likes of Sony and Microsoft to look at AMD as competition is very strong. They are probably more cooperative on designs and pricing than others as they build decent GPUs and CPUs themselves.

 

[Tornado]

I'm not sure if you were around that time, as the answers of both questions are pretty obvious. Actually all what I wrote here is a reference or keywords to search.

It sure is different Copy/Pasting opinions and links rather than creating and defending your own, isn't it? And as a bonus, when the chips are down you can just vaguely defer to Google so you don't have to bother.

 

[avens]

Can you provide a single link that shares the said opinion or references? One, not two, one.

If I had to write all what's beneath what I posted it would take days, but to the experienced eye the reasoning is pretty much obvious which is why I asked you if you really remember those days well or not.

 

[Tornado]

I'm not doing your legwork for you when you refuse to actually answer either my or II-zOoLoGy-II's questions. It's a waste of time for all involved at that point when your entire argument boils down to "it's so obvious that you must not be remembering correctly."

 

[avens]

So you said I'm stealing other people's ideas and now you just run away after throwing the stone? c'mon.

It sure is different Copy/Pasting opinions and links rather than creating and defending your own, isn't it?

You still haven't replied to the Porsche thread either, which is another technical topic in which you threw a huge statement that is against knowledge and experience (just like this one) and then ran away. Who does that.

 

[Tornado]

So you said I'm stealing other people's ideas

Yep. Pretty much. Ironic, considering you were the one I sourced that expression from.

and now you just run away after throwing the stone? c'mon.

I'm not the one who threw the stone ("I'm not sure if you were around that time"), and I'm not the one who's running away from the vague claims made in response to direct questions. If it's so obvious which games looked so much better on PC in 1998 than Dreamcast launch games, name them. If it's so obvious that PC titles blew the 360 away even at launch, give an example besides "lol more powerful hardware." Otherwise don't bother saying anything.

You still haven't replied to the Porsche thread either, which is another technical topic in which you threw a huge statement that is against knowledge and experience (just like this one) and then ran away. Who does that.

Maybe I've just been busy posting in some other thread where you've thrown excessively broad statements at a wall to see what stuck. Or maybe I had a post and accidentally closed the tab to it while doing something else. Or maybe I've been doing something else entirely. None of your damned business how or where I post.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

The internet; the place where nobody really knows you.... but knows you're full of it.

 

[FLASH48]

the internet; the place where nobody really knows you.... But knows you're full of it.

+100 👍

 

[Earth]

According to wikipedia:

"(PS3's RSX)Based on G71 Chip in turn based on the 7800 but with cut down features like lower memory bandwidth and only as many ROPs as the lower end 7600."

In 2005 a 7600 GT was available for under $200, according to a cnet review. And according to the review the 7600 GT could only run Doom 3 at 30 FPS in Ultra settings. Just like how the 7850 can only run BF3 in ultra settings at 30FPS. And Doom 3 was around a year old at the time, which would make that 24 months before PS3's launch, just like how BF3 was released 24 months before a presumed Q4 2013 PS4 launch. Theres nothing new or terrible about a console GPU not being able to render a 2 year old PC game in 'ultra' settings at 60 fps.

So at best the RSX in the PS3 was between a midrange card and a high end card, with a card of similar performance costing you around $200 in 2005.

Even if the PS3's GPU had been a perfect copy of the $400 7800 GT card of the time it still could only display Doom 3 at 45 FPS with 'ultra' settings.

So why are people upset the PS4 is getting a ~$200 card?

Microsoft had similar technology a year earlier, but they were cable to counter costs by using a cheap DVD drive, cheap PSU etc.

I just think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Consoles have never truly launched with hardware equal to or exceeding the very best PC had to offer at the time.

Finally, if Sony were to throw, say a $450 Radeon 7970 in the PS4, would it be worth it, considering the card is only worth 10 fps more then the 7850 when rendering BF3 on 'ultra', (31 fps vs 42 fps)? I'd say no.

 

[Froudeybrand]

http://x-surface.tumblr.com/

I am a gamer. I don’t work for Microsoft.

I, like most other gamers, am sick of seeing endless rumours and speculation citing “anonymous sources” or “insiders” with no evidence, no proof, no guarantee that they’ve been fact-checked or can be relied on.

The games industry is the only one I can think of that will quite happily publish guesswork as news. So-called ‘analysts’ are no different - they make money by guessing. They’re about as much use as a ‘source’ as I am.

I sent out an email to a bunch of gaming sites claiming to be a Microsoft employee working on the new Xbox.

I made up every single word of it along with a couple of specs copied from other rumours that have been appearing on the Internet.

This was a bit of an experiment to see just how easy it is to get a fake story taken seriously. And it is shockingly easy in the games industry.

interesting read.

 

[chromatic9]

PS3/360 did have a $200-300 gpu at the time of launch. By the time PS4 and next xbox drop maybe it will be a $150 - $100 gpu if we go by the rumour of 7850.

When the PS3/360 came out they had no need for a full API so they can get more out of a gpu than the current PC games of 2005/2006 with a 7800gt etc. PC quickly caught up. N64 was way higher than PC tech at launch but taken over quickly.

PC games like COD2, FEAR, Quake iv, Doom 3 are poor looking games at stock.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Question,why do Sony and Microsoft send dev kits to developers while there could still be changes to the final product?

 

[chromatic9]

To get feedback, to get games appearing quicker, takes 18months + to make a game

PS3 actually had a last minute older nvidia gpu put in as the double cell wasn't working out. Hideo Kojima built a target for mgs4 but the actual PS3 was inferior to plans so they scale the game down part way through development

 

[sems4arsenal]

To get feedback, to get games appearing quicker, takes 18months + to make a game

PS3 actually had a last minute older nvidia gpu put in as the double cell wasn't working out. Hideo Kojima built a target for mgs4 but the actual PS3 was inferior to plans so they scale the game down part way through development

Well you learn something new everyday ,Thanks Chromatic

 

[HKS racer]

New PS4 spec rumors
[*]HDD: 160GB

160 GB for a PS4? Not enough.

 

[Samus]

160 GB for a PS4? Not enough.

Read the article. It's a dev kit, it doesn't need large storage space.

 

[Ardius]

To get feedback, to get games appearing quicker, takes 18months + to make a game

PS3 actually had a last minute older nvidia gpu put in as the double cell wasn't working out. Hideo Kojima built a target for mgs4 but the actual PS3 was inferior to plans so they scale the game down part way through development

18 months? 18 months is the lead time for a fairly large mobile or social media game and thats assuming it runs smoothly and on-time (yeah right).

A "AAA" title for a next-gen console? Looking at a lead time of 2-3 years if its really big these days.
Take a year off if you're making a sequel on an existing console but a PS4 title is going to require a lot of lead time especially as launch titles have no breathing room on deadlines.

Dev kits are regularly very different to the retail versions. Its actually quite the problem from a testing/QA perspective especially for games that are released on proprietary hardware like the UMD for the PSP (I've heard stories in Sony where they had to go and buy the retail versions to test the UMD version worked!).

Only the tip of the iceberg really on the madness that is the games industry!

 

[HKS racer]

Only the tip of the iceberg really on the madness that is the games industry!

As an ex member of SCE Liverpool you have all my respect.

Maybe you could find some Studio Liverpool unenployed people and develop an arcade racer for PC, sell it on Steam and on Steam bundles.

Can you imagine a sort of "Rollcage 2013" on PC? That would be something. There are not enough good futuristic racers on PC.. you could find an interesting niche market.

 

[Robin]

Question,why do Sony and Microsoft send dev kits to developers while there could still be changes to the final product?

Because if they don't start developing now then there won't be any games at launch! And a console won't sell without atleast 1 good offering. Dev's tend to underestimate the pedicted perfomance to be on the safe side of what the final specs turn out to be. That's one of the reasons launch games only look average.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Because if they don't start developing now then there won't be any games at launch! And a console won't sell without atleast 1 good offering. Dev's tend to underestimate the pedicted perfomance to be on the safe side of what the final specs turn out to be. That's one of the reasons launch games only look average.

Great point 👍 ,find the whole process interesting ,do all developers get dev kits? (Yeah another noobish question i know )

 

[Luminis]

Great point 👍 ,find the whole process interesting ,do all developers get dev kits? (Yeah another noobish question i know )

Well, those who are working on titles that are supposed to come out on release day (or shortly after) need to get dev kits, at least. Those who aren't doing any developing yet won't get one, most likely.