Please Read - Promotions And Possible Changes

[Sphinx]

I'm not sure why that would be the case ... I see it as an extremely accurate way of ranking my skills against someone else.

Yes if every driver raced every week, but they don't do they? Just because someone has ran more races than you and therefore gain more points doesn't make them a better driver than you. I may go ahead of 3rdgenX once the leaderboard has been updated, am I therefore a better driver than he? you can bet that I'm not.

 

[Kolyana]

Yes if every driver raced every week, but they don't do they? Just because someone has ran more races than you and therefore gain more points doesn't make them a better driver than you. I may go ahead of 3rdgenX once the leaderboard has been updated, am I therefore a better driver than he? you can bet that I'm not.

Yes, but it's the best 6 of the last 8 weeks, so there's a natural 'levelling' off process and not a simple accumulation of points ...

I mean, I see where you are coming from if a kick ass driver races once every 12 weeks or something, but that's somewhat of an extreme example.

As is, the leaderboard presents a nice summary of driver histories based on the last 8 weeks, best 6 results, so even if you miss a couple of weeks, or a great racer misses a couple, it's all about the best results form those you DID race in.

From that perspective, it's a fairly good measure, I would ahve thought. (Obviously, I don't need any points to know that everyone in D1 and the top half of D2 are better than me, but the points work well for measuring myself against others in my division ... especially those who race a similar schedule.)

 

[Sphinx]

Yes, but it's the best 6 of the last 8 weeks, so there's a natural 'levelling' off process and not a simple accumulation of points ...

Even so, thats still no true reflection on ability from driver to driver. Many drivers move around for events and may not come back here for weeks, months and maybe even years, so the leaderboard's two weeks grace is a non-starter.

 

[Sphinx]

i see you editted your post before I had chance to notice, let me get back to you.

 

[Kelly]

Ok it was a bit too long to qoute the whole post so I'll pick out the bits I like best or worst

I can't see how there is a difference. In all divisions MOST drivers will never see a podium, so if the series is all about "podiums!", then most might as well give up and leave now then.

Yes you can look at it that way, but the point is we all try at least to reach the podium and don't be quitting coz we miss out on it.

I utterly disagree, the series is *NOT* about podiums.

Then why have your podium finishes in your sig? (Oh I've noticed you very recently added top 10's in there too) And there's not just you, nearly everyone has the same sig these days! all based on *PODIUMS*

I am more inclined to agree with the mentality that the series is about healthy competition and racing, being able to walk away when you like and come back when you like.

One thing we do agree on here it seems

This being said, it is only natural for some drivers to record their finishing positions each week and compare these to others that they have been racing against ... the net result, whether you call it this or not, is POINTS ... let's face it, points are just a simple way of tracking race history - period - and it's the most natural progression for a lot of drivers who happen to race on a semi-regular basis, whether they get on a podium or not.

I don't have a problem with people recording their finishes, we all have someone in our division with whom we like to compare or compete against, and that's without the desire to be up on the podium.
I do have a problem with people moaning because D1 has fewer entries and it gives them more "points" because of it.

Personally, Teledriel and I added the Unofficial D3 leaderboard, because we wanted the guys who are never likely to get into the top ten with any degree of regularity (or even the top 20), to have something to chase after.It encourages healthy competition, it encourages enjoyment, it encourages improvement, it monitors progress and it's a way to compare yourselves to others.

Again I have no problem with anyone doing a points system, but the WRS wasn't set up with a points system in effect, and so whatever points are given out are not really official.

The WRS may not be *about* points, but I sure as heck can't see how it can avoid the inevitable inclusion of points.

I can it's simple... leave the points leaderboards *un-official* there you go hey presto!

everyone wants to feel that with a little effort they could at least make the top ten in the division they're in, right? AT LEAST a top ten (and this is ignoring the "It's about PODIUMS!" comment from Lotus.

Maybe I should have added RACING and FUN!! then! I think you've took me far too serious on this matter!

And for those people who say that it's not about points ... just take a look at the number of people monitoring their own results in terms of positions ... it's the same thing and it's obviously what a lot of people are doing, whether it's welcomed with open arms by the WRS veterans or not.

That's all fair enough but the *WRS veterans* all think individually so I can only speak for myself when I say "I race for podiums not points" If I want to race for points I'll go join a point based event/series 👍

Ok that's all, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, all I can do is speak my mind just like everyone else does! These are only MY opinions, not the opinions of others.

 

[SHigSpeed]

My $0.02... It's too bad that we couldn't do qualifying and placing based on a TIME INVESTMENT basis. Currently I'm happy to finish in the top 1/3rd of D2 and currently can only dream of ever getting into the top eschelons of D1.

That said, the pattern that I tend to see is that I get my fastest time on Sunday night or Monday sometime. I'd guess I average 5-8 hours each week on the race (though I did spend a bunch more time at the 'Ring since there was such a long track learning curve, and even with those hours put in, I think I submitted my first and only clean lap). I can guarantee you that if I had the time to practice and the patience from my wife and family, I'd probably be able to be nearer to the top of D2, BUT, I don't have either! :^)

It blows me away when people pop up and post blazing T times with a "after my first 5 laps I got...". That's gifted driving. They deserve to win. OTOH, I can probably get there, but only after 40 hours of practice. And then there are those that put in 80 hours and beat me on a regular basis (I'm sure that's an exaggeration, I hope...).

I guess it'll always be an unfair advantage to be young (or old for that matter), single, and have lots of time on your hands! :^)

What'd be an interesting format would be a 1 or 2 day race. Have an automated system where you'd PM a bot and that would timestamp your "green flag" and reply with the race info. Then, you'd have to submit within 24 or 48 hours. This way you can request during the time where you'd have the most available time to race while at the same time limiting all drivers to a relatively short span to prove their skills. You'd do this once a week. Of course this can be cheated pretty easily by someone with multiple accounts etc, but it's an interesting idea.

Conversely, we could have a 5 day qualifier race to determine division, and have the "weekend" race for the points, but that's a huge logistical nightmare.

Now on to another issue. Lap verification. I bought a Max Drive before race 1. My PS2 sucks and won't read it. Anyone have any ideas? It works on the nephiew's PS2, but not mine. Thinking about doing a Costo "warranty" exchange to a new PS2Slim. Are there any known issues with the PS2Slim?

-Scott

 

[Kolyana]

@ Lotus, yeah, I have a tendency to ramble.

I think several of your points in your second email you pitch as disagreements to my own or as a vindication and proof of your own standing, and yet they actually agree with my own points and I'm not sure you see it.

I think you're probably using the word "PODIUMS!" as a catch all for "as good a position as possible", while - to me - tracking results on a weekly basis is the same as tracking points; the two are synonymous with eachother.

Likewise, you asked me why I put my history in my sig ... but that's exactly my point, a lot of racers are doing this because they do want to track their results.

My comment about it not being about PODIUMS! is in the literal sense ... it's not about - necessarily - coming first, second or third. Yes, we all want to, but then a level of realism must step in and there's a lot of people who WON'T get a podium (including e if I'm bumped up a division). This won't stop me from racing - hell no - but my point is that we don't race strictly for the top 3 spots, we race to get as high as we can, or do as well as we can ... hence the "it's not about podiums" comment.

My signature - which you kindly pointed out - is therefore a vindication and an illustration that I'm tracking positions and my progress, regardless of where I fall, whether it be podiums or not.

Thus, it's not about just podiums.

 

[Kelly]

To put it simply Kolyana (and I should have just said this from the start)

On the one hand I agree and on the other hand I don't

Of course we race to get the best finish we can possibly get!
But I found that by making such a point of my use of the word podiums you was being hypocritical to yourself, seeing as you take such pride in monitoring your progress ( not saying that's a bad thing, so don't get me wrong)

I think it's great that so many drivers are sticking with it week after week and it's possibly down the the points tables that keep most of us no-podium finishers going each week.
But it's not for me, I simply race in combo's I like and aim to acheive the best result I can, plus it's fun! (sometimes) That's what the WRS is about for me personally. Not points systems.

 

[Kolyana]

Yes, I can entirely see your point and have noticed that you race when you take the fancy, and don't when you don't! Heck, I wish I could do more of that, but right now it's almost somewhat of an obsession - I will admit.

It gives us both a completely different angle on the same subject, so I think we'll ahev to agree to disagree, or - like you said - agree to some things, disagree on others.

I tend to come off all wrong in the written word, too ... so I sure don't want to be upsetting anyone and if it appears that way, then I didn't intend it ... sorry

 

[Kelly]

Yes, I can entirely see your point and have noticed that you race when you take the fancy, and don't when you don't! Heck, I wish I could do more of that, but right now it's almost somewhat of an obsession - I will admit.

It gives us both a completely different angle on the same subject, so I think we'll ahev to agree to disagree, or - like you said - agree to some things, disagree on others.

I tend to come off all wrong in the written word, too ... so I sure don't want to be upsetting anyone and if it appears that way, then I didn't intend it ... sorry

I'm happy to agree to disagree And I know all about your obsession! I might not take part in the WRS every week but I sure as hell race each week although I'm not as competitive as I used to be which is better for me as I don't have time to spend ages on a combo and get frustrated and stuff (the kids do enough of that!)

You haven't upset me, I too post all wrong when it comes to trying to make a point so don't worry about it

Anyway, I think we should shut up now and get back to racing, yeah?

I've only got a bronze on this weeks race so it's gonna be a good challenge for me to turn that ugly bronze into a nice shiny gold

Good luck in results, wether you be 1st or 11th it's all good 👍

 

[Canoe]

Good discussion.

There is an overlap of ideas...

I thought the WRS was set up to be a one week series. Run the Qualifier then run a race.... easy.

Laying an accumulating points system on top of this adds variables that need to be managed, and also somewhat negates the value of the Qualifier. If the weekly results will be used to move people from one division to another the Qualifier is useless.

Maybe this will help:

I am in division 2. I remember spending roughly 2 hours running the Qualifier and then submitted my time. I've run 3 weeks in the WRS and haven't had time to put in the effort required to run a solid middle of the pack in my division. I am a whipping boy for many D3 drivers... hehehe. Given my current lifestyle there is no way I can give the time required to post a podium time in D2, and not even in D3. So what do you do with me?

Just me personally, but the points accumulation doesn't belong in the WRS as it was originally conceived. Move me up, or move me down and I am still the same driver with the same lifestyle running the same times. Podiums? hmmm.. so what. Top 20? ummm... yawnnnn. Just let me talk a bit and improve what I am doing in GT4 and I am a happy camper.

My only suggestion is to post whatever guidleines you'll be using to move people up or down in divisions. Hopefully it will help keep the confusion and questions down to a minimum.

 

[CFM]

Thanks for all the comments people, keep them coming. A few quick things that I have to say are that the actual format of the WRS is not going to be changed in any way. It will still be weekly events that drivers can run whenever they feel like it. Like some have said, there are plenty of events around the net (heck even GTP in the race series froum) that drivers can do if they want to run for points. IMO, that is the number one reason why this has lasted well over two years. Take a look around the net, and you will see all points based series die off really quickly. Things will not be changed in this respect because I am thinking long term here. One of the best things about this series is it's simplicity. No need for complex schedules and pre qualifiers each week etc, etc. I want this series to be available until well after the GT series is finally ready for actual head to head online racing and this series becomes somewhat obsolete.

Another thing is that adding a 4th division, in my eyes, is not the answer either. If attendance starts to fall off (which it will at some point) then there will not be enough drivers to fill each division. So far it looks like most people are hesitant to be promoted because then they have no chance of winning. That's why I like to promote people who have won so they can at least get that experience once. But not being able to win IS a fact of life. If everyone could win then we'd all be professional atheletes wouldn't we? I know from first hand experience way back when this all began, I started mid pack in Div.2, and it took me 18 weeks to get my first div.2 win. I eventually ended up in D1 an won a number of times when attendance was low, so it's all about how seriously you take it. I obviously don't have the natural gifts that others do, everything I have was earned through persistance and blunt force repitition. Like Sphinx said, what about us guys in div 1 like Fryz, VEXD and myself among others. We obviously would be able to repetedly podium in div.2 so that's not fair to div.2 drivers to be dropped down there either. We all just have fun challenging each other and go from there. Hopefully, everyone will remember that the whole point of this series is to have fun with it and to challenge yourself and your favorite rivals. Maybe the points leaderboard has made everyone start to take things too seriously.

Another thing about the qualifier, is that the lap times must be kept secret to keep it honest. If you already know what final time to shoot for, it's not very hard to just make up a time and PM it to me to be placed in the division you want now, is it? I feel that the qualifier is working exceptionally well, aside from the times when drivers just throw a lap together so they can run that week.👎

Thanks for all of the input so far, and I'm glad to see that this has been nice and civilized. There will never be a 100% consensus on how things should be because everyone has different goals in mind when coming here. There are those who want to win at all costs, those who are here for the comraderie, those who like a challenge in thier very limited spare time and squeeze in some runs around family and work commitments, those who want to see thier skills improve over time, etc. No matter what happens, some will be a bit unhappy. Just realize from my standpoint I have to do the best I can to attract and keep as many of you gearhads as possible.👍 Keep those opinions coming, everyone's feedback does matter.

 

[Luxy]

The only danger I foresee is by going too far with changes. One has to remember that it won't always be this many weekly drivers in the future, things will slacken off as time rolls by, no doubt about that, we've seen it all before. I've said before that the WRS's biggest strength is it's ability to attract all drivers through the simple method of allowing the driver the freedom to run as and when he/she desires, take away that freedom as some have mentioned in here will IMO only damage the WRS in the future.

I fully agree with Sphinx 👍 While there are a few things that could be nipped and tucked, the system we currently have has worked well for over two years, and I don't think major changes would improve anything. Different, yes. Better, no.

Four divisions isn't a good idea. When we all signed up for the WRS, there was never anything that said you'd always have a shot at winning your division. Nothing that said you are entitled to score points. Especially for the D2 and D3 drivers, there is room there to improve. Like any sport, if you want to win, you're gonna have to work for it, and that's a good thing. I started in D3 myself, and I'm not any sort of naturally talented driver - anyone with the motivation and some time can do it.

As for the whole points thing, consider it this way. Cyril's unofficial leaderboard didn't used to award separate points for each division, just for your overall position in the results. He's changed that to try and encourage drivers who aren't right at the top overall. It wouldn't be worthwhile, or a good idea to bend over backwards (i.e. creating a 4th division) so that *everyone* could have some points, it'd just make them mean less.

Right now, it seems pretty obvious that the qualifier isn't getting people into the appropriate divisions very well. I think having new drivers run without a division (rather than a separate "rookie" division) for their first two weeks is a good idea. Their result would get placed wherever they finished overall, and after the second week, CFM could assign them to the appropriate division.

I don't think a major reshuffle of the divisions is a good idea. As CFM mentioned, there are a few people that need to move up or down, and he's got an eye out for that. If someone is obviously out of place, they should be moved immediately (i.e. before the end of the week, so that their time is in the appropriate division in the results).

 

[Small_Fryz]

I do have a problem with people moaning because D1 has fewer entries and it gives them more "points" because of it.

Same here, the fact remains to have a faster time you need to have worked harder, whether it be that week or the past 6mths or even longer. You just cant pick up gt and be div1 unless youve worked hard in other racing games. Some people tend to think we were born d1, just like other sports most of us worked hard to practise and refine our driving to get close to the top in our sport, therefor we deserve to have more points and more regonition. Who hear that is not in D1 can say they have done ~5mths or GT driving with 500+km per week. thats what it took for me personally to be able to battle for top 5 in D1.

If you want to come and join D1 and have what you say "garunteed" points, then whats stopping you. If you were fast enough to be in D1 you wouldnt be worring about scoreing points in your current division.

anyway bottom line, i mean no offence to anybody but dont ever point out how easy us D1 have it, you try competing with the best in the world, or the best GTP has to offer and see how easy we have it then.

 

[eggmann]

I don't think people should be moved to different divisions just for the sake of balance. CFM should move drivers based on their performance (and with their blessing), and eventually the divisions will balance themselves. I'm pretty sure that's the way boom and Kent handled division moves.

 

[Kolyana]

If I can score a top 6 this week, I'll go to D2 with a fair amount of compliance, but if I put in a poor performance, I wouldn't feel comfortable being promoted. I guess what I'm saying is that I've had a decent couple of weeks, and if I can show that it's not a fluke then 👍 otherwise I'll be appealing! 👎

 

[Sphinx]

This is getting too much, Too many agreeing with me isn't on. Time to change opinions me thinks

 

[hOt6o4bOi]

small fryz post is awsome,

the 1 thing that makes me good at this game i think, is my LOVE for RACING~!
i've always wanted to become a racer, and this is the closest i can get for now...

i go kart whenever i can, watch all types of racing, EXCEPT FOR NASCRAP!!!!!

 

[somebody]

The only suggestion I can add is to use a system my friends and I use in our offline racing series.

Anybody who misses a round only scores half points for their next round entered.
Anybody who misses 2 or more rounds scores no points when they next enter.

This allows people who only come every now and then to see how fast they are against everyone else (and still be entitled to grab podium bragging rights) without greatly disturbing those people trying to score points.

 

[hOt6o4bOi]

^ that works

i wish more ppl would attend the races...

alot of people only come if the combo suites them................

 

[Teledriel]

1) There needs to be a bit of a shift as far as divisions go .....

Still formulating a thought to post on this item.


2) I am seriously considering making Div.1 a replay verification madatory division.

Agree with this.


3) I'd like to do a couple of different types of events later on.

Agree with this also, with one addemdum.

I feel someone other than CFM should head this project up. Not saying that CFM couldn't, but with the normal WRS, he does get busy, so if he is consentrating on WRS, and his idea is to run this concurrent with WRS, then I feel someone should assist him with this part.



Those two were the easy ones, now to go think a little more on my thoughts for #1.

 

[Kolyana]

Talking of assisting, I really think that there shopuld be a replay-verification process in place otherthan the gunho post it and hope method ... ESPECIALLY if all of D1 require verification.

The top 2 drivers in D3 last week required verification, only one got it ... no one else bothered with the other one (it's Pal format).

If I could suggest that a team of drivers volunteer to verify times EVERYWEEK, then this would ensure that all replays get verified and aren't left to chance.

I happily volunteer as someone on the NTSC side.

 

[Sphinx]

Talking of assisting, I really think that there shopuld be a replay-verification process in place otherthan the gunho post it and hope method ... ESPECIALLY if all of D1 require verification.

The top 2 drivers in D3 last week required verification, only one got it ... no one else bothered with the other one (it's Pal format).

If I could suggest that a team of drivers volunteer to verify times EVERYWEEK, then this would ensure that all replays get verified and aren't left to chance.

I happily volunteer as someone on the NTSC side.

I would be more than happy to carry out verification for PAL. I didn't realise that some submitted relays weren't getting checked

 

[Speedy Samurai]

This is a toughie, ne. I really like the WRS. But I don't have time to take it too seriously due to my, for lack of a more desciptive word, life. I also think most of the new drivers here are like myself. We enjoy the racing, when we have the time, but it is not the end of the world if we don't podium or have to miss a week. Taking that into consideration, the WRS is perfect in its current state. I think the introduction of the points system, which isn't official, by the way, caused a great deal of drivers to view their attempts as futile. Perhaps the introduction of a spreadsheet showing placings by week would be more appropriate. With an 'average placing' being the measuring stick. (Now that there is the addition of ballast in GT4 we could even be handicapping consistently high finishers, but I didn't say that.)

there should be some certain criteria for divisional promotions. Such as, if you finish in the top 3 in 3 out of 5 weeks you are promoted. This rewards consistency. As the GT4 WRS is only in its infancy (week 8) we have plenty of time in the future for divisional moves.

I like the idea of partnering up for races. We all have a common interest and it would be good to 'get to know' people in other divisions etc. Could even be done 'secret santa' style. Imagine how the Div 3ers would improve getting detailed info from the likes of Holl and Hotboi604 (I am originally a 604 boy but can't stand that moniker, sorry Hot) etc.

In the end, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The sudden influx of new drivers shouldn't make the WRS change drastically.

 

[Lotrzyna]

As CFM said people are here cos of different causes and we probably never achieve consensus but we must try. Personaly im here cos its great for me that people around the world do the same race with the same car at the same time (yeah i know - I want on-line racing ) but on the other hand im here cos of stats, and improving my skills - flat-out, Kolyana, Luxy, Terediel, Fryz - keep your work up, its invaluable (i hoppe thats good word for that ) so to make some conclusion: stay with tables, poits etc. etc. as they are, CFM you should decide who must be promoted or demoted (without proposing from us) - maybe some simple system (for example that proposed by speedy_samurai) will help you, tag racing is just brilliant idea - i will buy ARmax for that (i hope that 2 drivers will be able to send replays etc. between themselves )- but pairing drivers mith be a little bit difficult due to NTSC/PAL systems, also voting on trucks and cars will be fun but not to frequently - you know, we should depend on CFMs choice also all DIV 1 replays verification is good idea (+ all podium finishers as somebody (no not you somebody ) said before )- no offence - so if i want to be consistent I will have tu buy ARmax - I have full awareness of that - i know that im at the end of D2 but maybe someday..

 

[Small_Fryz]

I just thought of something

* = need to post replay
* = posted replay
* = replay verified by another member

This way when people post replays others go and watch it then post back and say so and so's replay is all good. Then CFM puts a * next to their name and we all know its valid. What do you guys think?

 

[bleurabbit7]

People come in the WRS for different reasons.

In my case, it's a couple reasons. First, I have a competitive streak. I want to win. I admit it. I want to get the podiums (I just haven't gotten there yet). To achieve this, I have to train myself, and I think by entering this will help me. I want to earn my way up to Div1.

Like hOt, I have a love for racing. I always wanted to become a professional driver. But it costs money and I have NONE. The only racing I do is SCCA and I can't even do that now because we lost our track (thank IVAN for that).

Others just come in to race with a little competitiveness. Just to see how well they do against others. This is another (smaller) part of me. They don't care about points or podiums.


We don't need a 4th division. It's pointless. All we need is to clean up the one's we have by removing 'dead' drivers. And if what you say is true, that the WRS will die off a little over time, there's nothing to worry about.

I think having the * as a verify is good.


I'm done rambling for now.

 

[Kolyana]

CFM already posted mlti-colored *'s next to names this week and it got confusing. Aside from whoever wanting to check replays to see how the racer drove, we need something more organized and guaranteed (and I'll say it again, ESPECIALLY if the entire D1 requires verification).

Too many damned stars is confusing. Have a team reasonable for verifying runs - it would not take many people, heck, maybe only 1 for each format, but 2 for NTSC would be nice - then just put the damned word 'verified' next to each run in the results post.

The same team will be responsible for drawing CFM's attention to replays not posted, unverified or illegal and he can take it from there.

It's not rocket science folks, we don't need Office Space style color coding here.

 

[vtec_guy]

If some div 3 drivers were promoted to div 2 then Div 3 can become a lot more competitive. Especially for the people at the bottom of the score board because there wont be as many amazing drivers to compete with. I think it will have the same effect on all the divisions.
This is a pretty good idea.

 

[TheWizard]

These all sound like good ideas, Todd.

1. I think partecipants should be promoted once they manage to obtain/submit times that are comparable to those of the division they are to be promoted to. A percentagewise method should suffice.

2. I am all for submitting replays, but this could prevent some people from being promoted to Division 1, even if they "deserve" to be there.

3. I like your ideas here, expecially the idea of doing some "team work".

Oh, just to make it clear (not that it needs to be, but... ) I don't want to be promoted to Division 1 ...

...yet.

The Wizard.