PLZ no more Expensive Cars in GT7

[Famine]

PD has got the in-game Economy in GT Sport 100% right, so there is no need to blame the game Economy. The blame is you the player just because you spend less time playing, so you have to blame the game for your problem.

If you want credits real quick, just do the reversing glitch or just sit the car like in this picture below for about 14 seconds and you win the race. View attachment 705539
This is no cheating because it is in the game.

 

[Tricky Vega]

Whatever happens in GT 7 I'm still confident in Polyphony Digital to do what they think is a better option.

In my mind no debate is a waste of time, it is a fundament for democracy, from the harchest opinion to the most sensible point of view.

I think the only way to solve this, is by increasing the amount of credits earned per race. Or adding easier ways to earn a large amount of credits.

Let's see the different methods of earning credits in past GTs

Gran Turismo 4: You can make easy credits by winning the Deutsche Touring Car Meisterschaft in the European Events Hall. Everytime you win
that championship, you will be rewarded with a Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR Race Car '98 and you can sell it for 700,000 credits. The best thing about this method is that you can use B-Spec mode and speed up the race, meaning that you can focus on other things while grinding. The estimated amount of time, is 25-30 minutes, meaning that you could make over 1,600,000+ per hour, even more. It takes 3 hours to get the most expensive cars (4,500,000 Cr).

Gran Turismo 5: There was a seasonal event called 750PP Real Circuit Tour (La Sarthe 2009), where you race against a Jaguar XJR-9, and the amount of credits earned per race would be higher based on the PP of your car. If you car had less PP you could get more credits. For example, with a Chaparral 2J you can earn over 1,700,000 credits (with 200% bonus) in 10+ minutes, meaning that you could make over 8,500,000 credits per hour. It takes 2.5 hours to get the most expensive cars (20,000,000 Cr).

Gran Turismo 6: You can make easy money by winning the Red Bull X2014 Standard Championship. I you get 1st place on each race, it gives an amount of 642,000 credits, and other 500,000 if you win the championship (1,142,000 credits in total). With the 5-day 200% bonus, we can duplicate the amount of credits earned by 2x, which gives us 2,284,000 in 25 minutes, meaning that you could make over 4,568,000 in 50 minutes. It takes 3.4 hours to get the most expensive cars (20,000,000 Cr).

Now compare this to Gran Turismo Sport, according to this video, we can make 2,200,000 credits per hour. Meaning that it takes 9 hours to get the most expensive cars (20,000,000 Cr).

That is TOO much grinding compared to previous GT games. I think that 3 hours is a more acceptable amount of time when it comes to getting an expensive car, compared to the 9 hours from GT Sport.

Nice tip for GT6 that I'm actually grinding while waiting for GT7, to buy the Ferrari 330 P4 that I've never tested in that game.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Whatever happens in GT 7 I'm still confident in Polyphony Digital to do what they think is a better option.

I too am confident that they will do what they think is best.... I'm also confident some people won't like it, they'll call it 'broken' because it doesn't suit them, and I'm sure many people will still opt to go for the META to make money then complain about being forced to grind.

 

[Samus]

I too am confident that they will do what they think is best.... I'm also confident some people won't like it, they'll call it 'broken' because it doesn't suit them, and I'm sure many people will still opt to go for the META to make money then complain about being forced to grind.

Remind me again how many hours you have to play the game if you don't grind the 'meta' event to get all the cars? Where is the threshold for you on when it does become unreasonable? 100 hours? 200 500? 750? 1000?

If a game is leaving you with the option of playing varied events for 750 hours like @Tricky Vega to get all the cars in the game you bought, or 250 hours doing the meta race, that is clearly a problem to me, irrespective of which one you choose.

 

[Tricky Vega]

Remind me again how many hours you have to play the game if you don't grind the 'meta' event to get all the cars? Where is the threshold for you on when it does become unreasonable? 100 hours? 200 500? 750? 1000?

If a game is leaving you with the option of playing varied events for 750 hours like @Tricky Vega to get all the cars in the game you bought, or 250 hours doing the meta race, that is clearly a problem to me, irrespective of which one you choose.

I haven't played that much only to get all the cars (actually I haven't them all).

I've played that much GT Sport (and PC 1&2, Formula 2018/19/20 on PS4) because I love driving, racing and focus on hot laps. And surely because I feel frustrated on the road and in my Caterpillar loader all day long aswell.

I think I got all the cars I wanted around 200/250 hours of "intelligent grinding” in the GT League.

I can't say if it is reasonable or not, because I'm not looking for being such.

 

[Doomotron]

I'm fine with having expensive cars. Maybe not 20 million Credits, but certainly an large investment. The trouble right now is that they're not a worthy investment. In GT7 I'd like to see a 48-minute endurance race (with the full day/night and weather cycle) around Le Man's with other 60s Le Man's cars. Now that would be cool...

 

[Tricky Vega]

I'm fine with having expensive cars. Maybe not 20 million Credits, but certainly an large investment. The trouble right now is that they're not a worthy investment. In GT7 I'd like to see a 48-minute endurance race (with the full day/night and weather cycle) around Le Man's with other 60s Le Man's cars. Now that would be cool...

I'd like that too.
Or real Grand Prix length races between 50 and 70 laps on GP tracks.

And with the 917 k should come the Old Spa-Francorchamps circuit.

 

[Samus]

I haven't played that much only to get all the cars (actually I haven't them all).

I've played that much GT Sport (and PC 1&2, Formula 2018/19/20 on PS4) because I love driving, racing and focus on hot laps. And surely because I feel frustrated on the road and in my Caterpillar loader all day long aswell.

I think I got all the cars I wanted around 200/250 hours of "intelligent grinding” in the GT League.

I can't say if it is reasonable or not, because I'm not looking for being such.

Which is fine, but you have demonstrated how much you would need to play normally if you are someone that wants all the cars. Which is hardly an unrealistic goal in a car game, even if you don't personally.

Mind you, now you're saying you did grind for 200 hours to get just the cars you wanted.

So it's a simple question, if someone wants every car in GTS, is it reasonable that it will take upwards of 500 or more hours of play time? You can answer the question even if it doesn't apply to you personally.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Remind me again how many hours you have to play the game if you don't grind the 'meta' event to get all the cars?

That would depend which events you raced, obviously. Though if you use being able to get all the cars as your benchmark, it's really not so simple a question. Getting the 20mil cars requires only time, getting all the cars requires potentially much less time, a degree of skill, as well as blind luck... you literally need all three to achieve the objective.

Where is the threshold for you on when it does become unreasonable? 100 hours? 200 500? 750? 1000?

Personally I can accept there'd still be things in the game I won't have achieved after 1000 hours, I would be disappointed if there was nothing left to aim for before 100.

If a game is leaving you with the option of playing varied events for 750 hours like @Tricky Vega to get all the cars in the game you bought, or 250 hours doing the meta race, that is clearly a problem to me, irrespective of which one you choose.

So you think it shouldn't give you the choice?

 

[Tricky Vega]

Which is fine, but you have demonstrated how much you would need to play normally if you are someone that wants all the cars. Which is hardly an unrealistic goal in a car game, even if you don't personally.

Mind you, now you're saying you did grind for 200 hours to get just the cars you wanted.

So it's a simple question, if someone wants every car in GTS, is it reasonable that it will take upwards of 500 or more hours of play time? You can answer the question even if it doesn't apply to you personally.

If you don't have the time to grind for hundreds of hours, maybe you can think twice before buying a car and stick to the cars you need, which I do at the begining of a new save.

Then I get the other cars when I want to find out how they feel.

I've never made the countdown to measure how long I must drive to get them all, because I'm sure that's not really the purpose of Gran Turismo.

But yes if you want to drive and learn them all you can expect spending at least 500 hours behind the wheel. (With a dualshock It'd be boring long before that)

 

[Samus]

That would depend which events you raced, obviously. Though if you use being able to get all the cars as your benchmark, it's really not so simple a question. Getting the 20mil cars requires only time, getting all the cars requires potentially much less time, a degree of skill, as well as blind luck... you literally need all three to achieve the objective.

Sorry I don't understand, how can getting all the cars take less time than just getting some of them?

Personally I can accept there'd still be things in the game I won't have achieved after 1000 hours, I would be disappointed if there was nothing left to aim for before 100.

Really? How would anyone ever complete games if that became the norm across the board? It's a racing game, not an ever-lasting MMO. The majority of adults just do not have that kind of time to put into games and I really don't agree that is something you can blame on the player. There are hundreds of games available and most people don't have that many free hours.

As I keep saying, there surely has to be a middle ground between the supposed "Want everything in five minutes" and "You have to grind for 250 hours or play normally for 750 hours".

So you think it shouldn't give you the choice?

The choice shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be meta races for one. Why is it so hard to formulate races so that a whole bunch of them offer roughly the same credits per hour? If they managed that it would remove the choice to start with, then you're just left with the "play how you want" grind. Which is still a problem if you're forced to repeat the exact same events because you've run out of fresh ones.

But yes if you want to drive and learn them all you can expect spending at least 500 hours behind the wheel.

And that is reasonable to you?

 

[Tricky Vega]

And that is reasonable to you?

I know it is not your case but for my part,

yes absolutly,
and that's exactly why I'm faithfull to Gran Turismo for more than a decade now.

I know I spend 4hours a day logged on on any Gran Turismo game because I'm home early after work begining at 5am. That's the only thing I have to know about the time I'm spending playing.

For instance, I've driven 11000 km within the last 3 weeks in GT 6.

So what is reasonable for me maybe unthinkable for you.

The only reason why I'm not asking myself all the troubling questions you ask, is because I spend more than the time needed to get all the details in the game I currently play, plus I have some extra time for playing music. But don't worry I'm kind of a sole case.

If you only have 2 hours to play Gran Turismo during the week-end I can imagine this feels frustating.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Sorry I don't understand, how can getting all the cars take less time than just getting some of them?

If you've got the Lewis Hamilton car then you also won up to 130,000,000 Cr. from those challenges alone.

Really? How would anyone ever complete games if that became the norm across the board? It's a racing game, not an ever-lasting MMO.

What's completing a game mean in this context? There's no percentage or rewards for collecting all the cars... one could argue being FIA champion is the ultimate completion. How many achieved that?

As I keep saying, there surely has to be a middle ground between the supposed "Want everything in five minutes" and "You have to grind for 250 hours or play normally for 750 hours".

There probably is, but there'll still be people that do the same event over and over again because it's the quickest, and unless the middle ground is pretty close to the 5 minute bunch, there'll be complaining about the amount of time it takes if we can't chose to do the quickest.

Why is it so hard to formulate races so that a whole bunch of them offer roughly the same credits per hour

It's not hard. But it seems clear the cost of entry (i.e. car cost) is supposed to be related in someway to the payout received, which seems intuitive, no?

Which is still a problem if you're forced to repeat the exact same events because you've run out of fresh ones.

At last count I'd noted 260 GTL races, taking about 60 hours to complete, if you run out of fresh ones (after 1 go around... re-running 1 event every 60 hours...), and that's enough to irk you... then perhaps it's not the economy, simply the number of car classes and tracks that is the problem.

 

[Tricky Vega]

At last count I'd noted 260 GTL races, taking about 60 hours to complete, if you run out of fresh ones (after 1 go around... re-running 1 event every 60 hours...), and that's enough to irk you... then perhaps it's not the economy, simply the number of car classes and tracks that is the problem.

Maybe I'm a strange case but actually I think there aren't enough (cars tracks and events)

The endurance level is a lark for something called endurance. The races there should have features in professionnal,
and after gaining level 50 I was waiting for a last Diamond level a sort of Elite League.

Most of the races are fine but wrongly sorted. We could have expected some GP length races with the Super Formula which is absolute honey to drive.

To get back to the thread, I've won 249 times the Vintage 79 at Le Mans with my 20 millions cr. cars, not because I'm a mad "grinder" but only because I love that race with my favorite car of all times (the 250 GTO) as I can race that one 10 times in a raw.

 

[Samus]

The only reason why I'm not asking myself all the troubling questions you ask, is because I spend more than the time needed to get all the details in the game I currently play, plus I have some extra time for playing music. But don't worry I'm kind of a sole case.

If you only have 2 hours to play Gran Turismo during the week-end I can imagine this feels frustating.

So surely you understand you are not a typical player? And that a more typical player may find it far too much?

There probably is, but there'll still be people that do the same event over and over again because it's the quickest, and unless the middle ground is pretty close to the 5 minute bunch, there'll be complaining about the amount of time it takes if we can't chose to do the quickest.

But that's what I'm saying, make it so there isn't a quickest event. If there is a racing series of 5 events, don't make it so that one pays out much more than the other four. Make them mostly equal. Apply that to all racing series of the same grade and there you go, 25-30 races that all pay as close as possible to the same amount for each one.

Also, do the five minute people really exist other than Fordlaser strawman? I've never seen anyone actually suggest they want all cars almost instantly. They just don't want it to take 250 hours.

 

[05XR8]

This is about the "Expensive Cars". Mainly cars about 1 mil Cr. Reason being, cars up to 1mil can be gifted by means of Campaign Mode->Circuit Experience- Driving School-Mission Challenges, Daily Workout Gift. All this in GT Sport.

We don't know how the Modes are structured in Gran Turismo 7, to award Cr and/or gift cars. Collecting/acquiring cars may be easier than in GT Sport.

 

[Samus]

Collecting/acquiring cars may be easier than in GT Sport

Which is all we're asking. Nobody wants them handed on a plate, just not quite so absurdly long. It never used to be, so it's not like anyone can say GT was always this way. The early games were long but mostly reasonable.

 

[CBH]

It is incredible to think that players don't like to Grind in GT Sport, because they don't want to do the events which pay good credits over & over, well how in the hell are you going to buy them cars you want. You have to Grind and it does not matter how long you spend playing the game, I can play this game all day and Grind the same race over & over to get the cars I need.
The credits are very easy to get in GT Sport even if you spend 2 hours or less every day playing, remember less play the longer you will take to get them cars you want.

So why put the Blame on the game just because you can not play as much as other players can when they play GT Sport, and you blame the game economy for it which is BS. You can not Blame the game because you find that you have to do some grinding, grinding you got to do it if you like it or not.

 

[RACECAR]

Boy is really going for the gold on this one.

 

[linksracer]

It is incredible to think that players don't like to Grind in GT Sport, because they don't want to do the events which pay good credits over & over, well how in the hell are you going to buy them cars you want.

It's incredible to think that people don't like to repeat the same event over and over and over again until they are bored out of their mind just to buy one car. (Can you detect the sarcasm there?)

You have to Grind and it does not matter how long you spend playing the game, I can play this game all day and Grind the same race over & over to get the cars I need.

Yes you do have to grind, and that is bad game design. This is the point being made. If the game economy was designed better, there would be no grinding necessary to get these cars. There are many ways to design a game that allow for everyone to get an equal opportunity to obtain these cars without having to invest bulk hours repeating the same boring events.

To repeat: Yes you do have to grind, but if the game was designed better, you wouldn't have to.

The credits are very easy to get in GT Sport even if you spend 2 hours or less every day playing, remember less play the longer you will take to get them cars you want.

I play this game every day to get my daily mileage reward, that is, I drive more than 42Km in GT Sport every day after work which normally takes about 20 minutes to half an hour. I am aware of what the meta events are, and which events pay out the best. I have won 985 GT League races. I own every car in the game apart from the Jaguar XJ13 and Ferrari 250 GTO. To get to this point, I have driven for a total of 26 days, 7 hours and 40 minutes. That's how much time I've spent simply driving in this game, and I still don't own every car. That cannot be a justifiable amount of time to have to spend to acquire everything in a game, especially when most of that is time spent repeating the same events over and over again.

So why put the Blame on the game just because you can not play as much as other players can when they play GT Sport, and you blame the game economy for it which is BS. You can not Blame the game because you find that you have to do some grinding, grinding you got to do it if you like it or not.

I can blame the game because it is the fault of the game and its design. Grinding, I don't like it and I shouldn't have to do it.

Here's an outside the box idea (detecting the sarcasm again?): There are better ways for players to earn rewards than grinding.

 

[Samus]

It is incredible to think that players don't like to Grind in GT Sport, because they don't want to do the events which pay good credits over & over, well how in the hell are you going to buy them cars you want. You have to Grind and it does not matter how long you spend playing the game, I can play this game all day and Grind the same race over & over to get the cars I need.
The credits are very easy to get in GT Sport even if you spend 2 hours or less every day playing, remember less play the longer you will take to get them cars you want.

So why put the Blame on the game just because you can not play as much as other players can when they play GT Sport, and you blame the game economy for it which is BS. You can not Blame the game because you find that you have to do some grinding, grinding you got to do it if you like it or not.

 

[Tricky Vega]

The main mistake is to think that Gran Turismo games are designed to own absolutly every cars, I think otherwise.

The game is designed in the way that you select the car you like most within the needs you get at a time being.

And yes, the more you play the more you collect cars, but owning 100% of the cars is the last of the completions here.

Of course there may be some unbalanced economic issues, but poeple must not mistake their goals in the game.

 

[05XR8]

The next question is: Do the expensive cars have to cost as much as they don GT Sport?

GT5P and GTPSP, are examples of cars not being out of reach, but the economy rewarded so little. Can't remember how many times I had to drive my Integra Type R in GT5P, to accrue the funds to get the F1.

GTPSP was/is pretty good. Allows a better way to up funds, by increasing lap length. GT Sport is nearly there, with Cr. increasing the more a player tuned difficulty. As most know, the payouts don't match GT League.

Expensive cars could be dialled down. Would that mean rewards are dialled down as well?

A clue could be the tuning parts shop. In GT SPORT, players haven't had to buy any extras with Cr. Only cars. Do PD want to go the route of players grinding for parts, as well as cars? Especially when players can only use certain cars for a limited time in Career/GT League type events.

 

[Dave A]

There probably is, but there'll still be people that do the same event over and over again because it's the quickest, and unless the middle ground is pretty close to the 5 minute bunch, there'll be complaining about the amount of time it takes if we can't chose to do the quickest.

Which is one of the flaws in the game, only it's heightened in GT Sport because of how much longer it takes to save up Cr compared to previous games.

There's no reason Cr couldn't be awarded based on an alogrythm based on the race length and the race difficulty. So every professional difficulty race for example could pay approximately 20,000 Cr per minute (as an example). There shouldn't be these meta races that pay out significantly higher sums per minute over everything else.

It's not hard. But it seems clear the cost of entry (i.e. car cost) is supposed to be related in someway to the payout received, which seems intuitive, no?

There is that angle of course, but that encourages grinding the same events over and over. It would be much better from a game deisgn standpoint (IMO of course) for the payouts to be determined by race length and difficulty rather than what cars are required to enter. The races with more expensive cars should be the more difficult races anyway which are reached later in the game and thus be higher paying ones. But GT Sport is so unbalanced that even in some individual series the payouts can fluctuate notably from race to race.

At last count I'd noted 260 GTL races, taking about 60 hours to complete, if you run out of fresh ones (after 1 go around... re-running 1 event every 60 hours...), and that's enough to irk you... then perhaps it's not the economy, simply the number of car classes and tracks that is the problem.

But completing those races (certainly the first time round) cannot be done without grinding other races. You hit walls all over the place in GT Sport, your level isn't high enough to do the next tier of races or you need to buy a really expensive car etc.

The number of races isn't bad, it's not the best, but it isn't bad at all (however like @Tricky Vega I would love there to be even more), but when you can't do them becuase of your driver level or becauseeven when you've been shrewed and only buying what you needed so far you're still millions of Cr away from affording a car you need for the next event, then it's badly designed.

You can solve the problem by keeping the 20m Cr cars and increasing the rate people earn Cr or by reducing thier cost. I have said it before and I'll keep saying it, GT4 to me was the best game in the series in terms of Cr to cost rewards and balancing the in game economy and progress. So that's the model I would personally like to see PD go back to, but you could also increase the Cr rewards to make the 20m Cr cars quicker to afford (once you've reached that point in the game).

Question to the those who like GT Sports economy, did you feel that the economies in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5 and GT6 were all broken? Because GT Sport's is nowhere near the same as those games, so if you think GT Sport has it nailed I'm interested to see what you think of all of the earlier titles.

 

[Tricky Vega]

Which is one of the flaws in the game, only it's heightened in GT Sport beucase of how much longer it takes to save up Cr compared to previous games.

There's no reason Cr couldn't be awarded based on an alogrythm based on the race length and the race difficulty. So every professional difficulty race for example could pay approximately 20,000 Cr per minute (as an example). There shouldn't be these meta races that pay out significantly higher sums per minute over everything else.

There is that angle of course, but that encourages grinding the same events over and over. It would be much better from a game deisgn standpoint (IMO of course) for the payoutrs to be determined by race length and difficulty rather than what cars are required to enter. The races with more expensive cars should be the more difficult races anyway which are reached later in the game and thus be higher paying ones. But GT Sport is so unbalanced that even in some individual series the payouts can fluctuate notably from race to race.

But completing those races (certainly the first time round) cannot be done without grinding other races. You hit walls all over the place in GT Sport, your level isn't high enough to do the next tier of races or you need to buy a really expensive car etc.

The number of races isn't bad, it's not the best, but it isn't bad at all (however like @Tricky Vega I would love there to be even more)

Question to the those who like GT Sports economy, did you feel that the economies in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5 and GT6 were all broken? Because GT Sport's is nowhere near the same as those games, so if you think GT Sport has it nailed I'm interested to see what you think of all of the earlier titles.

You get cred. a bit slower in GT Sport because actually there are a lot less cars than in the previous games,
is it a wrong thing ? I don't know but I can imagine that at Polyphony Digital they tryed to balance the gaming time rather than the overall game economy.

Does it bother me ? Absolutly not.

 

[CBH]

You get cred. a bit slower in GT Sport because actually there are a lot less cars than in the previous games,
is it a wrong thing ? I don't know but I can imagine that at Polyphony Digital they tryed to balance the gaming time rather than the overall game economy.

Does it bother me ? Absolutly not.

That is true a lot less cars in GT Sport and still people complain about the game economy, and it is pretty sad life they got to complain about the game economy.

In GT6 the credits were very nice because of the seasonal & quick match events, because GT6 had over 1200 cars and parts to buy when the server was online. So with GT Sport not having that much cars and having no parts to buy with credits, and they still complain about the game economy which is sad to see.

 

[Dave A]

You get cred. a bit slower in GT Sport because actually there are a lot less cars than in the previous games,
is it a wrong thing ? I don't know but I can imagine that at Polyphony Digital they tryed to balance the gaming time rather than the overall game economy.

Does it bother me ? Absolutly not.

I think that could be a factor, but also being unable to sell prize cars is a factor as well.

Then there's the fact GT Sport was never originally intented to be the classic GT singleplayer experience. Aknowledging this doesn't make me like the economy in GT Sport and the slower rate of Cr earning compared to other earlier GT titles. If they wanted to balance it due to the lower number of cars they should have re-jigged the costs of the cars IMO.

Of course it doesn't bother everyone, like yourself. There will never be a one size fits all solution, the differences of opinion in this thread is proof enough of that. I just fail to see the benefit of forcing people to grind this much for virtual items where my acquisition of such items has zero bearing on another persons enjoyment of the game and vice versa.

But opinions differ, and that's fine and people want different things, which is also fine. It just means some people will be disspointed and others wont depending on what (if anything) changes for GT7.

@fordlaser what is your opinion of the in game economies in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5 and GT6? If GT Sport's economy is perfect is every other GT games broken? Are you going to actually repsond to these points or will you repeadly igore all counter points raised as per the usual.

 

[Famine]

Holy crap...

It is incredible to think that players don't like to Grind in GT Sport, because they don't want to do the events which pay good credits over & over, well how in the hell are you going to buy them cars you want.

In your case, cheating. However, in a broader sense, the answer is "by earning credits".

Now here comes the point you really don't want to see: a well-designed game economy (note: economy means both how you earn and how you spend currency in a game) does not require players to perform the same task repeatedly (which is what "grinding" is) for over 10 hours to earn those credits (per high-value car). Indeed in principle a good game economy would allow you to earn enough currency from doing every action in the game once to allow you to buy all the items in the game once - with some rewards kept back for progression milestones.

GT Sport's primary issue with the game economy is that it didn't have an offline/career mode of any kind when it launched, with the only actions you could perform to earn currency being the mission challenge, license test, and circuit experience. Doing each of those things once (including the original circuit experience, for courses in the launch game) takes about four hours, and it wouldn't be much of a game progression if everyone could buy everything in the game from four hours of play...

... but then there's Sport Mode, and that is its own issue. Sport Mode is the core of the game and players should be compelled towards it by rewards... but Sport Mode has really, really poor payouts. Then the offline mode came along with much higher rewards (than Sport Mode), so people gravitated towards that instead. However, it was a relatively small offline mode, and expanded with each update, which meant it was not designed for players to do everything once to be able to buy everything - otherwise players would have no reason to do the races in future expansions.

Thus you had a poor, short offline mode with poor rewards, an online mode with poor rewards, and a longer offline mode with better rewards but not enough to offset the time taken to buy the extremely high value cars also added in the updates (the most expensive cars in GTS were just over 3m credits at launch).

That all means that players had to grind to earn the credits, which is a symptom of a poorly designed game economy. Or, of course, find out ways to cheat the game to earn money really fast - which you know all too well. That too is a symptom of a poorly designed game economy - there'd be no need to cheat if there was no need to cheat...

You have to Grind

Yes, you do. That is not the point. The point is that you shouldn't have to.

and it does not matter how long you spend playing the game

Not when you cheat it doesn't...

I can play this game all day and Grind the same race over & over to get the cars I need.

Cool beans. You're not everyone - and this is not even close to a rational argument that the game economy is just peachy.

The credits are very easy to get in GT Sport even if you spend 2 hours or less every day playing, remember less play the longer you will take to get them cars you want.

You can, at most, pick up 4m credits in two hours. That is a fifth of the cost of the highest-value cars in the game. If a Sport Mode race comes up with a 20m car you don't own, you'll need to spend five days at that rate to buy the car, leaving two days for practice and racing (and earning no further credits).

As I've laid out for you previously, GT Sport is actually in the top three of GT games in terms of credits you can win per hour. It's also in the bottom three of GT games in terms of how long it takes to earn enough credits to buy the highest value cars.

A game economy is both how much money you can earn, and how much money you need to spend. GT Sport has more money coming in than the average GT game, but also far more going out, making it hugely unbalanced. As a result, it's ahead of only GT5's atrocious economy (made better during its life by the login bonus); it's the second-worst game economy in Gran Turismo history.

So why put the Blame on the game

The game economy is poorly designed. You are railroaded into grinding (or cheating) by the bad design of the economy.

just because you can not play as much as other players can when they play GT Sport

Other players can put in far more time than you do. Those running at the top of the leaderboards in Sport Mode will put in six hours of practice a day, as well as doing the racing... and they get zero credit rewards for practice, and some of the lowest payouts in the game for Sport Mode races.

You're confusing "I drive two hours a day doing the highest paying career mode race ten times" with dedication, to the point you keep on telling players who are the best in the world and drive far more than you, as well as streaming and recording videos to help other people, that they're simply not dedicated enough to the game. You use the quickest possible methods to earn credits - including more valid methods alongside things like simply paying real money, running on ovals with a rubber band on the controller so you can do other things, and flat out cheating - and think that's dedication.

and you blame the game economy for it which is BS. You can not Blame the game because you find that you have to do some grinding, grinding you got to do it if you like it or not.

Grinding is necessary to earn credits to buy high value cars because the game economy is designed that way, and the whole point of the discussion is that it is bad game design to force grinding onto players...

Your point seems to boil down to "grinding is fine because it's in the game so you have to do it which means it's fine", which is so far away from critical thinking or even basic reasoning that it could have been thought up by a spaniel.


And lest we forget, you also think that earning credits is too slow, because if you didn't you wouldn't have cheated!

If you want credits real quick, just do the reversing glitch or just sit the car like in this picture below for about 14 seconds and you win the race. View attachment 705539
This is no cheating because it is in the game.

 

[MatskiMonk]

There's no reason Cr couldn't be awarded based on an alogrythm based on the race length and the race difficulty. So every professional difficulty race for example could pay approximately 20,000 Cr per minute (as an example). There shouldn't be these meta races that pay out significantly higher sums per minute over everything else.

I'm sure there is no reason why it couldn't. It seems a bit lame to me that PD would have to find a way of making different races in potentially different cars, at different tracks deliver the same payout per minute because people can't be trusted to not do something they don't want to do. What if you spin on the last corner and the last lap and come in P20, should you still get the same payout? You spent the same amount of time after all,

but that encourages grinding the same events over and over

Maybe, but it doesn't enforce it.

It would be much better from a game deisgn standpoint (IMO of course) for the payouts to be determined by race length and difficulty rather than what cars are required to enter.

This is fair, the discrepancy between custom race payouts and GTL races doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense.

But completing those races (certainly the first time round) cannot be done without grinding other races. You hit walls all over the place in GT Sport, your level isn't high enough to do the next tier of races or you need to buy a really expensive car etc.

I'm not going to argue against this, because I didn't track my progression at the start, I will say though, that in simply playing the game in the order it was presented to me - I don't recall hitting any walls with the possible exception of the Nostalgic 1979 races. The game throws cars at you from very early on, gives you a car each day you play, for very little effort (including the 20mil cars at the point they were added), there's a free car to be had from signing up with a manufacturer, and let's not forget, if you're good enough, there's 120,000,000 on offer for about 20 mins work via the Lewis Hamilton DLC - I assume this is unlocked from Level 1 and requires no cars. You also don't need any of the really expensive cars for level progression since there's no specific reward for winning the Nostalgic race, just MP and Cr., which are available in most/all other races... and there's also the small point of not needing to hit 20 million, or even 10 million to do those races (which don't count towards any unique in game race stat other than wins in that specific race anyway).

You can solve the problem by keeping the 20m Cr cars and increasing the rate people earn Cr or by reducing thier cost. I have said it before and I'll keep saying it, GT4 to me was the best game in the series in terms of Cr to cost rewards and balancing the in game economy and progress. So that's the model I would personally like to see PD go back to, but you could also increase the Cr rewards to make the 20m Cr cars quicker to afford (once you've reached that point in the game).

To me this entirely comes down to individuals claiming the arbitrary line in the sand that suits them would be good game design... there's still going to be people for who someone elses idea doesn't work... so to answer this...

Question to the those who like GT Sports economy, did you feel that the economies in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5 and GT6 were all broken? Because GT Sport's is nowhere near the same as those games, so if you think GT Sport has it nailed I'm interested to see what you think of all of the earlier titles.

I don't feel this game nails it, or that previous games were broken in this regard. I simply accept that PD's vision was to create long term (i.e. game life length) goals and this was the method they decided would be fairest without undermining that vision. There's no trophy linked to it, there's no achievement linked to it, there is no progression barrier the 20mil cars unlock, and they're VERY rarely required online... but you can't buy them for real money, you can't now win them so if you do simply want them for the tiny use they offer, you have to commit long term, or be better at the game than a 6 times F1 champion... and I'm okay with this being PD's vision. For me personally, it's a long way from being the biggest issue with how PD handle the game these days.

Also, do the five minute people really exist other than Fordlaser strawman? I've never seen anyone actually suggest they want all cars almost instantly. They just don't want it to take 250 hours.

Given that I've seen people claiming that having an economy in the game at all is archaic and has no place in modern gaming, and that people think skill-walls are better idea than time-walls, or that there should only be a finite number of cars of a type available, then I think it's fair to assume everything else exists between this span of No-achievement-required and achievement-not-possible... but yes 5 minutes might be hyperbolic... not wildly different to suggesting payouts should be in the millions for races whose gift cars should also be sold for ~millions though.

 

[Dave A]

I'm sure there is no reason why it couldn't. It seems a bit lame to me that PD would have to find a way of making different races in potentially different cars, at different tracks deliver the same payout per minute because people can't be trusted to not do something they don't want to do. What if you spin on the last corner and the last lap and come in P20, should you still get the same payout? You spent the same amount of time after all,

Sorry I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at there (or I've explained it badly). I'm not saying if you enter the same race twice but one time it takes you 5 minutes to finish and another time it takes you 6 minutes to finish you get more Cr for taking 6 minutes. It should still be based on your final poition, but the time factor should be based on how long it would take on average to complete a race, if you manage to do it fast or slow shouldn't relevant.

There will always be minor differences in Cr payouts per minute based on skill and the car chosen but it would be a much more blaanced system than what we have now. There's a similar system in Forza Motorpsort 7's free race mode, you pick a track and the number of laps and based on the length of the track and how many laps the prize Cr is calcualted and adjusted.

I hope that makes more sense.

The rest of your post I respect, we won't agree on all points, but you are totally right about the line in the sand, it will be in a different place for each person. I think I've made my line quite clear by now . But it's interesting to see just how divided people are over this issue. Whatever PD do they certainly won't please everyone, I know that. I hope they please me, but there's no guarentee, we will have to see.