Political Correctness

[Famine]

If I state job offer for a White Male Manger of 35 years old, I will create a "grey hegemony".

Errr... you won't, unless you set the rules for a society. You might contribute to one, but only if most employees across your community were white, male and 35ish regardless of local demographics.

Hegemony = dominance of a single social grouping above others. My allusion to a "grey hegemony" is that if everyone is equal and no-one is distinctive, everything is the same and that social grouping is dominant.

If I do it politically correct: looking for a Manger, to lead a team of 15 in the domain of ... and with a management style in line with my corporate culture.

That's not political correctness, though I'd agree that the PC mindset has contributed to that idea - Equal Opportunities.

However, as a private employer you should be free to say that you specifically want a white male. Or that you don't want a white male. Or any other restrictions that you wish. But that's all for a different thread - I recall we had one about discrimination floating around somewhere*.


* Quick note - if I was employing actors for the Sydney Poitier Story, would I be entitled to only interview/employ a black male actor in his 30s, or must my interviewees be half male, half female, 20% black, 20% Hispanic and 5% disabled? Why would there be a difference between that and me wanting to employ a hairdresser in Cheam?

But the inclusion of all is essential in political correctness.

I'd disagree. The goal is to ameliorate offensiveness - so that no-one is offended by anything. Perhaps that is the "inclusion of all", though the group isn't "society" but "the unoffended".

Take the earlier example of Christmas decorations and Jews. While it may be apocryphal and more commonly reported in newspapers than the actual reality of it, it is at least consistent with the aims of PC. The thinking goes:

* We have a lot of Jews (or other religious grouping) in our community.
* Jews don't celebrate Christmas because it's Christian (ignoring that it isn't).
* Being forced to see Christmas decorations everywhere they go must upset Jews.
* In order to not upset Jews, ban Christmas decorations in our community.
* Everyone's happy.

Of course the result is that the Jewish community think "Isn't it Christmas? Why are there no decorations?", the non-Jewish community think "Isn't it Christmas? Why are there no decorations?" and everyone's confused and miserable. But hey, no-one's offended, so it's all gravy, right?

What tends to happen then is Chinese New Year, Eid, Ramadan and Diwali. Lots of fun, lights, fireworks and craziness (hey, I don't ascribe to their brands of religion any more than more home-grown ones, but I do like fireworks and parties). Which the papers report upon while reminding everyone that a tinpot council somewhere "banned Christmas" to prevent offending Jews! And people think "Hang on a minute... We're not allowed to celebrate Christmas, but the [insert racial insult here] can celebrate their bizarre voodoo nonsense?"

The natural end result of this is fourfold:
* Everyone's confused
* People whose cultures have been suppressed to prevent offence to other cultures blame the other cultures, rather than institutional stupidity
* Daily Mail [insert your own neo-fascist tabloid here] circulation increases
* People who'd otherwise vote for whomever their parents voted for instead vote for nationalist parties with barely disguised racist policies


So PC starts off with good intentions - let's not offend people, because offending people is a bit rude - and ends up with full-blown, rampant Nationalism. And in fact it's not even the fault of political correctness (which is largely harmless, even if it's aimed at eradicating free speech), but the stupidity with which it's applied.

 

[Sureboss]

And the stupidity of those who apply it.

Solution is simple, kill the monarchy. Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him?

 

[OG_Wretch]

And the stupidity of those who apply it.

Solution is simple, kill the monarchy. Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him?

I don't see the Monarchy as being the problem since sure one person can cause trouble
but it takes a committee, usually a lopsided one, to really screw things up.

I mean looking back, I can only see King George being the last real arse to his subjects...
...but in his defense he was peeing blue.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Or it is a punishment but due to the mis-lead media and also the false bravado of some criminals, they could be making it sound better than it actually is.

Although, it really should be quite bare and basic. In America, don't the prison system use their prisoners to create workers that they don't have to pay? That seems reasonable, using the prisoners to work a standard working week for no extra charge.

While I do see your point of view, what I don't understand are that statistics showing that over 50% of violent crimes were committed by a repeat offender. Someone who went to jail for a similar crime, did the same damn thing (or worse), and is going back to prison.

In this case, it seems like prison is neither a deterrent nor an adequate form of rehabilitation.

The prison system in the US does pay prisoners for work they do. While it isn't exactly a 'living wage'.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

And in fact it's not even the fault of political correctness, but the stupidity with which it's applied.

100% happy with this conclusion
by the way it applies to many things.

I'd disagree. The goal is to ameliorate offensiveness - so that no-one is offended by anything. Perhaps that is the "inclusion of all", though the group isn't "society" but "the unoffended".

Take the earlier example of Christmas decorations and Jews. While it may be apocryphal and more commonly reported in newspapers than the actual reality of it, it is at least consistent with the aims of PC. The thinking goes:

* We have a lot of Jews (or other religious grouping) in our community.
* Jews don't celebrate Christmas because it's Christian (ignoring that it isn't).
* Being forced to see Christmas decorations everywhere they go must upset Jews.
* In order to not upset Jews, ban Christmas decorations in our community.
* Everyone's happy.

We tend to call it party decoration now. Including all that want to party. With a great Party tree (stable and figurines are limited to churches).
I also try to invite management to wish a Happy New Year or festive season only, the western year not being sensitive cultural heritage.

However they should be able to state "I will celebrate Christmas with my family", since it is normal for a Christian to do this. But do not force others to take your culture or be excluded.

The reasoning above could go to something like:
* I do not allow to build Mosques, since it would offend other religions. Lets tear the churches down.
* Did you know that celebrating Birthdays is offensive for Jehovah's Witnesses, lets ban that.

=> indeed stupidity to go that way.

Chinese New Year, Eid, Ramadan and Diwali.

I really have to follow up on my cultural calendar, more parties

=================

P.S.: Some people in this thread need to start a thread on virtues and issues with imprisonment, I miss the political correctness in their discussion.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

We tend to call it party decoration now. Including all that want to party. With a great Party tree (stable and figurines are limited to churches).
I also try to invite management to wish a Happy New Year or festive season only, the western year not being sensitive cultural heritage.

What?

That's pretty damn ridiculous. If someone's feathers get ruffled b/c the calender year is based off the birth of Christ; too damn bad. The need for standards and metrics being able to cross multiple languages and cultures trump the feelings of a small group of people.

A good example of this is in aviation & engineering using English as the universal language. Some would say this infringes on the 'rights' of the pilot's heritage and culture...but...when you have to land a plane and all you hear over your headsets is a bunch of gibberish, you're ****ed.

Same thing in medicine.

You need to have standards and universals, such as the current calendar. If you want to be 'culturally sensitive', you can refrain from saying "the year of our Lord" and just spout a bunch of numbers.

Without universals (like Arabic numbers), you have chaos.

 

[MonsterMunch]

I don't know if you remember the controversey surrounding Tim Hardway and his comment about gays or Carrier Prejean's view on marriage, but in both situations political correctness reared its ugly head out.

Tim Hardway was sacked by his employer for being openly homophobic and saying some pretty hateful stuff. How is that the fault of political correctness?

 

[Sureboss]

I don't see the Monarchy as being the problem since sure one person can cause trouble
but it takes a committee, usually a lopsided one, to really screw things up.

I mean looking back, I can only see King George being the last real arse to his subjects...
...but in his defense he was peeing blue.

I should point out I was being completely sarcastic as that as a solution for "fixing" PC, though I'd still fully support someone taking out the Monarchy. It'd be nice to not live in a Monarchy, what with it being the 21st Century 'n' all.

 

[OG_Wretch]

I should point out I was being completely sarcastic as that as a solution for "fixing" PC, though I'd still fully support someone taking out the Monarchy. It'd be nice to not live in a Monarchy, what with it being the 21st Century 'n' all.

I understand and was a bit on the sarcastic side myself.

After having not lived under a Monarchy I'm not sure I ever could.
I have lived under a dictatorship but I signed up for that for the greater good.

Free is much better though.

 

[Submerged]

With BrutherSuperior comment about planes and pilots and the like, it reminds me of a time when I happened to be in Le Man with my uncle who had a friend who owned his own little Piper plane. The Le Man airfield was all in French. Not English.

Which meant that the pilot had to be relatively useful in French.

Now, for France themselves, they are being a bit un-PC to the world, as it is their country and their language. But to other pilots from other countries, it is not really particularly fair for this airfield to do it that way. I do not quite know what language they would have used, if the pilot was Spanish speaking, whether they would have persisted in English or French...or reverted to Spanish. However, in the grand scheme of things, it highlights (at the time) that it was better for them to have used French. As it enable the pilot and passengers of the Piper plane to know that they have entered French airspace.

This is quite important to realise that you are in fact, in a different country with different laws when you hear their native languages and not just another land that might have the same laws and languages as yourself.

 

[Duke]

Quick note - if I was employing actors for the Sydney Poitier Story, would I be entitled to only interview/employ a black male actor in his 30s, or must my interviewees be half male, half female, 20% black, 20% Hispanic and 5% disabled?

That would be deliciously ironic, since Sydney Poitier himself refused to take any role that specifically required a black actor.

 

[Famine]

Exactly the reason I picked him

 

[ledhed]

If he wore blackface in the role it would be acceptable then .
Unlike Al Jolson ..
Even though they are both ACTING .

 

[AMCNUT]

Up here in Canada we have to deal with the disease of Political Correctness far too much! Our politicians can't string a sentence together without offending someone, and are constantly forced to apologize at political gunpoint... yeah, the system's that messed! I would give dearly for a canditate who would say what they mean, mean what they say, and not bother apoligizing to anyone for anything! For instance, up here we get to deal with stuff like THIS, of all things...

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=3dd47db8-bceb-4401-ab9f-ad00b6f172d4&k=65784

Oh, and FYI, my major is Political Science so I'm rather hoping this will be a thing of the past if I'm successful at life!

 

[DKLion3s]

I've perused pages 1-4 and agree with many that PC has gotten to the point where mis-comprehension is in top form amongst almost every institution in existence today. It can be quite daunting especially when seeking information or cummunicating to enhance ones lifestyle & quality of life.

PC has definitely created more hardships in communication & understanding than mend relations, as intended, when first conceived. As a saying goes, " the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Well, let me get down to why I decided to post. Basically relating to describing a person with regards to "skin".

Whilst growing I was never taught or heard colours utillised to describe a person's skin. It was addressed as complexion, then in terms of tone, wether lighter or darker in relation to the individual or individuals in my company at the time.

So say for example you had to describe a suspect to an officer. You would first establish complexion in relation to either yourself or the officer taking the description, then proceed to say possibly two shades lighter or darker, or if it's close enough say close to yourself or the officer's complexion. At which point you've now set the stage for features, sizes (nose,lips,eyes,etc), height, weight, etc...

In this way there was never an offense to a person's skin. Am I the only one here @ GTP that grew with this? Or did I miss it on the last page (5)? Just curious. Yes I know, curiosity always kills the feline. lol

Edit: Going back to check.

Nope! Not there either. Interesting read though.

 

[DK]

I think there's a somewhat tragic element to PC. While it does have some good intentions, sometimes it gets blown out of proportion, and then right-wing media outlets (e.g. Daily Mail, The Mirror, Fox News) say "It's PC gone mad!" Then the far-right parties come and make a man who lost his job for racially abusing a foreigner a martyr of sorts. I find it sad that it reaches such proportions of epic stupidity.

 

[ledhed]

I also find working in a PC enviroment baffling --I was yelled at for saying -" STOP can't you see her legs are cripled " ? ..when one of our "clients ' ( mentaly ill person ) ran over a women ..I was told there is a better way to say it ..while I research this would someone like to clean up the blood left after she was trampled ? Seems that wasn't as important as , using " CORRECT command " to PREVENT it .

 

[Joel]

I've read stories or people saying they'd rather be called crippled than handicapped, because cripple describes their condition adequately, whereas handicapped makes them seem less capable than they are.

 

[A2K78]

I understand and was a bit on the sarcastic side myself.

After having not lived under a Monarchy I'm not sure I ever could.
I have lived under a dictatorship but I signed up for that for the greater good.

Free is much better though.

I've never lived under a monarchy(even though I am subject of one), but given the choice I would prefer to live under a monarchy because looking at the current of affairs americans are currently living under an elected dictatorship. It almost like we're living in the old Roman Republic

 

[hawkeye122]

I hate political correctness.
"Who did it?"
"That black guy over there."
"You mean the African-American?"
"He's Jamaican."
"Ohh...."


Also, all you lot back home, I'm wondering, do you call people with "Darker skin" "African British" or what?


"Happy Holidays, In case you have one, I want to be fair"

 

[Animal_Mother]

I've read stories or people saying they'd rather be called crippled than handicapped, because cripple describes their condition adequately, whereas handicapped makes them seem less capable than they are.

Hey, hey, hey, it's handi-capable! See how stupid that sounds? It's as if all the pain and struggle of the individual has been neatly washed away by a simple change in vocabulary.

You see, you change speech, and you change the way people think. I believe that is the root of political correctness. There's no cry from the average people's of the world to clean up their languages, it's all being done by special interest groups who want to achieve their ideological goals and reshape society in a way that is beneficial to them. Like most movements, it all come down to acquiring power and influence, not the betterment of humanity, as those groups would have you believe.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'm not quite sure how I missed this thread until now, but I do have some things to weigh in on.

Three years ago company policy for management became that we must say Happy Holidays and not Merry Christmas. Once the HR lady corrected my use of Merry Christmas and I explained that I don't celebrate Holidays, in fact I never even heard of it, but I do celebrate Christmas. She kind of laughed it off, not taking the policy seriously herself, and cautioned me to be careful. I just asked her if it sounded like a case if something actually happened if I brought up a complaint of inequality as my own personal beliefs were being oppressed by company policy. Then I told her that if I could get a Festivus Pole authorized I would never mention Christmas at work again. That didn't happen.

That year the lobby Christmas tree became a holiday tree. The next year they attempted to take that to a whole new level and keep it up year round. In February tony football helmets were hung on it, hearts and cupids at Valentine's Day, and eggs at Easter. By Easter the staff was making fun of it so much they took it down.

And currently in my email I have an unopened email with the subject line: "Harassment Training Roll-Out." I know from experience it is my annual forced online manager harassment training that is due by sometime in June. If I go another two weeks I will receive an email asking why I haven't started yet. Again, I know from experience. The first year I got through half of it and then got busy for about a month. I had more done than anyone else at that point, but because I hadn't been constantly working on it I got lectured by my boss. Harassment training, serious stuff. Too bad the videos we watch during the course could be made for $50 in beer and a Handycam.

OK, just opened the email. Due by June 30th and I have to do it due to court decisions (against us? Someone else? Dunno.), EEOC (Who?) Guidelines, and state regulations (New Jersey, New York, Kentucky, or one of the other states we have offices in?). So, this is legislated in some way. I must be trained, repeatedly, how not to offend. Why repeatedly? Because what is deemed offensive is always changing.


And that brings me to my personal experience. I have a heart condition and need a transplant. During a surgery when I was 14 something went bad and an air bubble got in my bloodstream and caused a stroke. I learned during rehab that brain attack is an improper term. I developed epilepsy from that and was paralyzed on my left side. I considered myself crippled, handicapped, whatever. A few years later I was told using those terms was rude. I fit the definition I used them for. Don't lecture me on what is a rude way to refer to myself. If you do I will purposely find rude terms to describe you. I recovered from the paralysis, but my left hand still has a lack of movement and dexterity. While I am not handicapped due to it, because it doesn't prevent me from doing things, my hand is crippled. It isn't disabled, because it still mostly works. Then as my heart got worse recently I got a "Disabled Person's Parking Pass." I got a look when I showed up at the courthouse with the paperwork and said I needed to get a handicapped parking pass. They even said, "Disabled person's parking pass?" I just let it go, but seriously, it's my body. I'll define it as I want. I can't walk across the parking lot of a Buy More without getting winded, but I can still walk. Disabled is more offensive to me as it says to me that I can't do anything. If my car's security system disables the engine it just isn't moving. But like a golf handicap I just have a physical handicap. I am prevented from putting forth perfect effort, not disabled.

As for the terms used for minorities: Using N*****r was purposely offensive against slaves. Then it became that negro was common so as not to use that word. But people used negro in the same derogatory way and it eventually became offensive. So then people began using black. But racists just began using black in a derogatory way. Now we say African American, although I don't know a single person with a parent from Africa. But here is the question, if Rush Limbaugh had said that McNabb was popular because the press was desperate to see a successful African American quarterback would it have been less offensive? If the KKK said African American in everything they did, would it be less offensive? When President Obama is shown in caricature as an African tribesman is it less offensive? Put an American flag in the background and you have an African American. And of all the people of color (another one!) out there President Obama is the only one I know of who can truly fit the definition African-American. I'm not saying he is the only one who is a generation or less from African-born relatives.

Similar stuff goes for every racial group.

Quick reality check for you: It is not the words that are offensive. It is the connotation. The fact that the word has to change, due to how it is used, every decade is evidence of it. If the word itself made any real difference we would still be using the terms negro, American Indian, and oriental because the change would have happened then.

 

[Dapper]

You see, you change speech, and you change the way people think.

When I read this^ I had a flashback of this:
"...Don't let the alphabet use you!" A hysterical English profesor.

 

[Joel]

The best one is when my biology teacher was teaching about sex linked genetic disorders, and "colour deficiency" was the example. Teacher asked "is anyone here colour deficient"? I raised my hand, but said "don't you mean colourblind?" "No, colour deficiency is the term now". I said, "well, that's news to me".

Then a girl in the class asked me what colours I can't see, so I told her I have trouble distinguishing purple and blue, to which she replied "so you could be on a gay pride parade float and not even know!" I was howling with laughter but the teacher sent her down to administration because what she said was "offensive towards me". I guess perhaps the gay part was somewhat offensive, but honestly? I don't get offended because I can't tell purple and blue apart.



PS: The worst part about that lesson, was that the family tree the science textbook used to illustrate how colour blindness (I mean deficiency ) is passed down, used black and red X and Y chromosomes. The chromosomes were either black (unaffected) or red (carrying the gene). I couldn't tell the difference between the red and black letters , the guy beside me had to circle all of the red ones.

 

[Keef]

I love being "politically incorrect". When people get offended by what I consider proper terms, that's my cue to target them with my political incorrectness.

 

[Sureboss]

Quick reality check for you: It is not the words that are offensive. It is the connotation. The fact that the word has to change, due to how it is used, every decade is evidence of it. If the word itself made any real difference we would still be using the terms negro, American Indian, and oriental because the change would have happened then.

Absolutely, going back to your earlier point about the Happy Holidays thing. The utter stupidity of it is that the majority of people from the non-Christian faiths, don't actually care if it gets called Christmas!

I remember a lecture a couple of years back, being told they can't use the term brainstorm any more (whether this is just at the college level, or have been told by government, I don't know) as it could be deemed as offensive.

It's all stemmed from the compensation culture (which I'll blame the US for exporting!), with companies being so damn careful, and frankly, can you blame them?

If it's that or face big fines for being offensive (even though you aren't), it's pretty obvious what the choice is. I've been wanting the government to introduce some form of compensation standard, so that there is a solid understanding and we can remove some of the utter nonsense.

That said, I can't say I particularly find this part of the country very PC, outside of the big corporations, anyway.

 

[Famine]

"Of course, people forget that even Political Correctness hasn't always been politically correct. It used to be called 'spastic gaytalk'." - Frankie Boyle.

 

[Sureboss]

Was that from before he went all mental and starting on the LSD? Some of his C4 stuff last year was weird.

 

[FoolKiller]

As far as I know there has never been a single political correctness law passed in the US or the UK banning certain words. Nobody has ever been charged and convicted with being politically incorrect.

I believe this goes right here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...arrest-over-Kung-Fu-Fighting-performance.html

Pub singer's 'racism' arrest over Kung Fu Fighting performance
By John Bingham 9:18AM BST 27 Apr 2011

Simon Ledger says he fears he will end up with a criminal record for performing the 1974 disco classic at a seafront bar on the Isle of Wight on Sunday after two people walking past apparently took offence.

The 34-year-old, from the island, regularly features Carl Douglas’s 1974 number one hit in his set when he performs at the Driftwood Beach Bar in Sandown.

But after striking up the melody in front of customers at the weekend he noticed a man of Chinese origin walking past with his mother, making gestures at him and taking a picture on his mobile phone.

He said that he later received a telephone call from police - while he was dining in a Chinese restaurant - asking him to meet officers about the incident.

He was then arrested and questioned before being bailed.

Hampshire Police said that it had been following up a complaint of racially aggravated harassment.

“We were performing Kung Fu Fighting, as we do during all our sets,” Mr Ledger, 34, told The Sun.

“People of all races were loving it, Chinese people have never been offended before.”

A police spokesman said: “Police are investigating an allegation of racially-aggravated harassment. A man from Shanklin was arrested.”

Somebody is not being a very funky chinaman from funky Chinatown.


Racially-aggravated harassment sounds like a political correctness law to me.

And yeah, I know he hasn't been on since mid-March, so I don't expect a response, but hey...Challenge accepted.

 

[TT3AZ]

Im political correct when it suits me, i mean, you have to play the game in the right way.

Since im a ethnic minority, i use the racial card as a defence