POLL: Do econo-cars and small cars (think Lifan) have a place in gt6?

[Antonisbob]

Sure, I love the little 'Bubble cars" such as the Isetta, Peel, Goggomobile, Scootacar, ect. Too bad there's none of the above in GT, yet.

 

[interpolfan11]

The one thing I've learned about Gran Turismo is overall appreciation of automobiles. Maybe I seem old-fashioned to see the everyday cars to be as much a part of automobile culture as any high-end sports car. I would disagree in thinking PD has much better things to do than go with cars more people care about. While I am not saying that our input doesn't matter (because our input DOES matter), I don't think are totally neglected for what we want to see. It isn't so much about pleasing everyone; rather pleasing a general consensus of car fans. If that audience includes the vast array of those who love everyday drivers as much as sports cars and supercars, then so be it.



Love it or loathe it, these cars are as much in the fabric of Gran Turismo as any other. There's no way you're going to disallow PD to get rid of these cars just to make it exclusively about the fastest-possible cars alive. If anything, it was Gran Turismo to make racing even the most incapable and slowest cars to be like racing higher-end cars in intense competition. Most other games were about the fastest and most capable cars rather than a decent balance of everyday cars and dream cars. I'm sorry if you may disagree with my points, but I am speaking both as a Gran Turismo veteran and and overall lover of cars. I'd gladly race even a Toyota Prius as hard as I'd race the Dodge Viper ACR because I love cars and racing. I would enjoy a vintage Fiat 500 (doesn't matter which model) as much as I'd enjoy the Ferrari 512BB or the 330/P4. That's the kind of gamer and car fan I am. So keep the everyday drivers. That is- unless you only think sports cars and supercars alone are worthy of racing and tuning...

I was going to write some grandiose rebuttal to this statement, but I'm getting kinda tired of this thread...

All I'm going to write is that as a dedicated car-enthusiast, I would like PD to remove the Japanese econoboxes and replace them with iconic and enthusiast-geared vehicles of shapes, sizes, eras, and performance levels (read that last sentence CLOSELY, I'm not advocating for PD to only include supercars and race cars). I don't think that makes me any less of a car-lover just because I have preferences, I don't think that would involve the abandonment of the series' roots, and I don't think many people would disagree with me if they understood that those Japanese econoboxes are taking away from the chances of their favorite cars (and other peoples' favorite cars) being included in the series.

 

[tpark103]

I think it's fun tuning and driving the light weight affordable cars that we daily.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Wow, thats rather black and white, dont you think? Usually in the start of Gran Turismo we're forced to buy one of these economy cars. I'd much rather have enough credits to select a Honda Civic, Fusion, Cruze, or Camry to start off a career. Those cars get 40 miles per gallon and average around 150 horsepower. They're superior to economy boxes in every single way.

My opinion is that any car under 100 HP doesnt belong in a Racing Game unless it has historical significance. I understand that in Japan alot of these micro/low powered cars are popular because of over crowding and high fuel prices. But for the rest of the world where that isn't a problem we're interested in driving cars that are a little more exciting.

A Ford Fusion or Toyota Camry? This kind of car is far less exciting than a small supermini. Not only are such cars more expensive (and thus, provide less reason to have a little track fun in them in the first place), but they have softer suspensions and more weight. I've driven a Fiat Panda and a Ford Taurus, and I can tell you the FIAT is much much much more fun. And small and light car usually will be; I imagine it would be the same in a Demio, Vitz, Fit, Twingo, 208, Fiesta, whatever. Cars with firmer suspensions than saloons, cars that are light and tossable, cars with small peppy engines that need to be worked up. It's the same in GT6, I like driving around the Suzuki Swift, I like driving around the Nissan Micra. And I want the new Vitz, I want the new 208, I want the new DS3, I want the new Demio.

I also want the fun kei-cars too. The Autozam AZ-1, Honda Beat, Suzuki Cap, Alto Works Suzuki Sport Limited (like a 4WD go-kart covered with a miniature van body, love this one), Daihatsu Copen. I want these to return in GT6 (as premiums of course). I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 normal mundane kei cars in GT6 either, just as a small comparison. I find racing these cars a lot of fun, and it seems many others do too.

Contrary to what I've read in this topic these economy cars do not feature great handling. I remember the Autozam being an oversteering pig in GT5. And because of their low power proper racing line and momentum is of utmost importance, making racing them even more difficult and frustrating.

You think the Autozam is an oversteering pig but you want bloated barges like Bentleys, Cadillacs and Rolls Royces? Eh?

Kei cars are a joke in real life, we all know we would never own one because they're badly manufactured, yes, they're cheap, but that is because of the poor quality and extraordinary pieces of crappy design, they're ugly on purpose,

Why are them fun in a videogame? just the idea of somebody spending days and months modeling them makes me sick,

I think people here a bit confused, if you like them, think why do you like them, the answer isn't because they're fun to drive (they're not)
it's because they're there to have a laugh, it's funny and sad at the same to see how bad they are.

Is GT going to stop being GT if they remove kei cars?, absolutely not, in fact, it would make it a better game, I have never driven one of these turds in GT5 and I will never do, but still, I paid for them, hell no, no more Kei cars, ever. IRL too.

This is one of the worst posts I've seen on GTP in my 7 years of posting here. Your earlier one, where you posted that you don't want small korean and japanese cars but stated you want a Smart For-Two (which is no better as a car) and a Chevrolet that is actually Korean, was not far off either.

1. Kei cars are not a joke IRL, they are an affordable way of motoring for millions of people in Japan. They are small and perfect for tight cities, and have great fuel mileage, saving hundreds of dollars in fuel costs for Japanese drivers. They are a good fit in Japan for many people. I would cut your elitist attitude if I was you.

2. They are certainly not ugly on purpose. And it's your opinion that they are ugly at all in the first place. 👎

3. If the idea of someone modelling these cars for a game makes you sick, I would have to question your basic priorities as a human being.

4. They are fun to drive for some. Get over it. Your attitude needs work.

5. If you've never driven them, how do you know they are not fun to drive?

What's my reasoning? The same one that nearly every person on this board uses as their reasoning when this question is posed. PD is bias towards Japanese cars.

Of course, PD is Japanese and grew up in Japanese car culture. Likewise, many Americans are biased towards American cars and Europeans are biased towards European cars. It's only natural.

 

[Snaeper]

But wouldn't you rather just have the cars on your wishlist rather than having Kei-cars be included?

I would, of course. However I'm not familiar with K-Cars, so I left them off for that reason. I trust PD to have good judgement when putting the K-cars on there.

Because you can't have as many cars on your wishlist as possible and Kei-cars unless your wishlist is tiny. And then I'd question how much you really like cars if your wishlist is that tiny. The same logic applies to the community. Apparently they don't realize that the inclusion of Kei-cars would chip away at their wishlists.

I question how much you like cars 'cause you don't want K-cars in the game.

I think it's reasonable to expect around 6-10 new K-cars appearing in GT6. All in all, that's not a huge loss off my 600+ car wish list.

Look- I understand you think the majority of the people who voted in the poll realize the implications of PD modeling Kei-cars as opposed to more often-requested cars, but I honestly don't think they do. Again, I know it certainly doesn't reflect upon their wishlists.

Like me, I imagine that K-cars aren't on more wishlists because they're so foreign to us. Also like me, I imagine that we expect to have a handful of K-cars in each GT, so there's really no point in asking for them. To me, wishlists represent the other cars that will be included. Think of K-cars as a constant.

Also, PD doesn't pick it's cars entirely upon user requests, contrary to what you seem to believe.

Also, the poll is ridiculously misleading and if it was retitled- the results would be different.

How is that? Seems straight forward to me.

What's with the attitude?

What's with the blind dismissal of what makes GT different from other racing games?

Ummmm, no it's not.

It isn't? What other games have K-cars? Hasn't GT always had K-cars? From the very beginning?

Who cares if they included some cars that people wanted? It wasn't enough to prevent every person under the sun from criticizing GT5's car list, deservedly so.

Ignoring the fact that this is a gross and base-less exaggeration. They could put 1000 of the most desirable cars in the world in their game and they wouldn't be able to please everyone. They can't please everyone all the time. They sell the game in Japan, for all we know Japanese gamers want K-cars. So why would they ignore them? Especially when they live with those people?

What's my reasoning? The same one that nearly every person on this board uses as their reasoning when this question is posed. PD is bias towards Japanese cars.

Well that's what happens when you have Japanese people growing up in Japan around Japanese cars and making a game with cars in it. As a result, I expect K-cars. As a result they have a place in the game. Thinking anything otherwise is a fools errand.

Why is this relevant? They're paid to make a video game, not have fun.

So.. PD is or isn't biased? I'm confused. You just said they were... but then you said this.

That was my point, by the way. That's why it was relevant.

This is one of the worst posts I've seen on GTP in my 7 years of posting here. Your earlier one, where you posted that you don't want small korean and japanese cars but stated you want a Smart For-Two (which is no better as a car) and a Chevrolet that is actually Korean, was not far off either.

I completely agree with you Sagaris, I chose not to bother honoring it with a response. I'm glad you did and I'm glad you made all the right points. Hopefully he gets it.

 

[interpolfan11]

Of course, PD is Japanese and grew up in Japanese car culture. Likewise, many Americans are biased towards American cars and Europeans are biased towards European cars. It's only natural.

Right, I know. I was just answering the question quoted below:

So then what's your reasoning that we see more Japanese cars than we do American and European ones in general?

 

[SagarisGTB]

Right, I know. I was just answering the question quoted below:

My apologies then, I thought you were adding implicit negative connotations.

 

[interpolfan11]

My apologies then, I thought you were adding implicit negative connotations.

No worries bro, sorry for my somewhat aggressive tone in the post you quoted.

 

[niky]

Kei cars are a joke in real life, we all know we would never own one because they're badly manufactured, yes, they're cheap, but that is because of the poor quality and extraordinary pieces of crappy design, they're ugly on purpose,

Correction: You'll never own one because they're all right hand drive.

In my several years as a motoring writer, I have several favorite test drives of the hundred odd ones I've done (which includes 300-500 hp sportscars, SUVs and rally-reps).

The Ford Ranger diesel is one.
Another is the MX-5. Would be on everyone's list.
One is the new Volvo S60 (prefer it in T4 to the 300 hp AWD T6, though).
One I've done several times and never get tired of... the Ford Focus diesel.
The Mazda6 always rates highly (don't quite gel with the Mazda3)

And lastly... the small cars... I do lots of small cars, because I simply love them. The Suzuki Alto is buckets of fun, three-wheeling around every corner. I've drifted Kia Picantos. I've borrowed several Mazda2s, and hooning, sliding and three-wheeling down a mountain road in one at 10/10ths is much more fun than driving restrainedly down the same road in a heavy, softly-sprung Genesis Coupe because it's too wide and too tricky to do the same in.

The only shame in GT5 is that you're not given enough small tracks and road courses to properly enjoy small cars on. Tracks like Citta d' Aria, where narrow streets and linked corners make it a joy to thread the needle in a small car with.

I think you will have trouble finding a gaming site outside of GTP that recommends GT5 over Forza 4.

Sales numbers say different... though I do understand Forza is the superior driving game. But that has nothing to do with the lack of supercars and everything to do with the gameplay. GT's car list is problematic purely because they give you so little to do with 80% of the cars in the game, many of which don't have competitive fields (cars of the same class and vintage) to compete against and events specifically tailored to them. GT6 should be better in this regard. And it will have Kei cars, and I will likely buy it whether it has the latest Mclaren MP4123CDEXY and Ferrari F468 Convoluzione or not.

 

[CJSpencer77]

Some people argue they are an essential component of GT and they're very fun and etc. but I couldn't care less for those cars. If I wanted to drive a crappy econo/eco hatch, I have mom's car in the driveway. I seriously don't look towards driving Demios, Priuses, Leafs, Swifts, generic K-cars etc. I understand the like some people have for the Capuccino, for instance, but it actually is a quite peppy, lightweight, turbocharged, rear-wheel driven, maniac so I think it has earned it's place in GT even though I don't like it. But cars like the Prius and etc. are a different story. How boring would you have to be to actually desire to simulate driving something that sounds like a vaccum cleaner and goes like one???

Consider driving a car in a sim is much less exciting than doing it in real life. Driving a race car in a sim is a blast because driving a real race car is nothing short of mindblowing. But given that an ecomo crapbox is boring in real life, why would you want something EVEN more boring?

What this guy says ^ but x 100

I couldnt have put it better myself. 👍

 

[interpolfan11]

I would, of course. However I'm not familiar with K-Cars, so I left them off for that reason. I trust PD to have good judgement when putting the K-cars on there.

Why would you trust them? They've already exhibited bad judgement when it comes to car and track selection, as well as the allocation of resources in general.

I question how much you like cars 'cause you don't want K-cars in the game.

I guess liking all cars that were ever produced is a requirement for being a car-lover now. Dammit, I guess I don't like cars then...

Thanks for informing me, though.

I think it's reasonable to expect around 6-10 new K-cars appearing in GT6. All in all, that's not a huge loss off my 600+ car wish list.

Losing 6-10 cars off my wishlist is quite the depressing prospect for me, especially since I strongly suspect GT6 will only have around 500 cars. And the worst part is that I know many of the cars on my wishlist (and probably your wishlist as well) make up other peoples' wishlists as well. So essentially, PD would be letting down the whole GT community by blatantly ignoring the fans and putting in Kei-cars instead.

Like me, I imagine that K-cars aren't on more wishlists because they're so foreign to us. Also like me, I imagine that we expect to have a handful of K-cars in each GT, so there's really no point in asking for them. To me, wishlists represent the other cars that will be included. Think of K-cars as a constant.

Also, PD doesn't pick it's cars entirely upon user requests, contrary to what you seem to believe.

Oh believe me, I completely agree with the part of the quote I bolded. It's the reason Kei-cars keep appearing in the series.

And you're partially right about Kei-cars not appearing on more wishlists because they're so foreign to westerners. But then again, why should I care? The vast majority of us will never drive a Kei-car, and thusly, they will never appear on our wishlists and that's reason enough for PD to stop including them. None of us are explicitly requesting them and yet they keep including them for some reason.

How is that? Seems straight forward to me.

The term "small car" can be interpreted a number of different ways. It can refer to a Kei-car, or it can refer to a legitimate enthusiast-geared car like a Mini, Abarth 500, Miata, etc. It can also refer to a number of iconic and/or enthusiast-geared classic cars.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest PD remove those cars from the series. The only cars we want removed from the series are the Japanese econoboxes with 60HP.

What's with the blind dismissal of what makes GT different from other racing games?

GT isn't all that different from Forza. And honestly, the little differences between the two (Kei-cars, paint chip system, etc.) do more harm than good. (BTW if you're wondering, the "harm" being caused Kei-cars is the fact that they have priority over many cars that the GT community has been requesting for years).

BTW, I feel bad for bringing up your "attitude". My apologies. It wasn't necessary.

It isn't? What other games have K-cars? Hasn't GT always had K-cars? From the very beginning?

You're right- I think GT is the only game with Kei-cars.

But I still think you're a little bit confused about the average fan's relationship with those cars. The majority voted "yes" on that poll because a) the poll is misleading b) the average fan will take anything they can get from PD, knowing that "they don't have to drive it". However, I'm not a big fan of this mentality in this context, since these Kei-cars are again, diminishing the chances of receiving the cars they really want in the series.

Ignoring the fact that this is a gross and base-less exaggeration. They could put 1000 of the most desirable cars in the world in their game and they wouldn't be able to please everyone. They can't please everyone all the time. They sell the game in Japan, for all we know Japanese gamers want K-cars. So why would they ignore them? Especially when they live with those people?

I do know of a game that starts with an "F" that has less cars than GT5, and yet the fanbase is 10000000000x times happier with the car selection. So if the game that starts with an "F" can do it, so can GT.

And no, it's not a gross and baseless exaggeration. Open up your horizons a bit and realize that the vast majority of this board is made up of people who occasionally complain about GT5's car list and its non-sensical selections.

Well that's what happens when you have Japanese people growing up in Japan around Japanese cars and making a game with cars in it. As a result, I expect K-cars. As a result they have a place in the game. Thinking anything otherwise is a fools errand.

Ok look- I expect K-cars too because a) PD is from Japan b) PD doesn't listen to its fans enough.

That doesn't mean I'm happy about it, though. Mostly because (you've heard this a thousand times already) it exhibits PD's lack of ability to listen to its fans and incorporate more cars that actually show up on wishlists.

EDIT: I have no problem with PD having a slight bias towards Japanese cars. The Kei-cars cars should at least be supplanted by premium-quality Japanese classic cars, though. They're generally more-requested than the Kei-cars and are supposedly fun to drive.

So.. PD is or isn't biased? I'm confused. You just said they were... but then you said this.

At first you mentioned PD's HQ is in Japan and that easier access to Japanese cars was the reason we see more Japanese cars than American or European ones. You weren't talking about bias. That's part of the reason why I wrote the quote off as irrelevant. It didn't pertain to the largely false comment that preceded it.

That was my point, by the way. That's why it was relevant.

I still don't see why it's relevant. We all know PD models Kei-cars because they don't listen to the fans enough and generally do what they want. You weren't shedding any new light there.

Sales numbers say different... though I do understand Forza is the superior driving game. But that has nothing to do with the lack of supercars and everything to do with the gameplay. GT's car list is problematic purely because they give you so little to do with 80% of the cars in the game, many of which don't have competitive fields (cars of the same class and vintage) to compete against and events specifically tailored to them. GT6 should be better in this regard. And it will have Kei cars, and I will likely buy it whether it has the latest Mclaren MP4123CDEXY and Ferrari F468 Convoluzione or not.[/B]

The bolded portion is so incorrect. GT5's car list is largely criticized because a) it has duplicates b) it features non-sensical selections like Kei-cars c) four-fifths of it is rendered in PS2-quality.

And where are people getting this preposterous idea that we only want supercars? Literally nobody in this thread has mentioned that they want to replace the Kei-cars with supercar after supercar. And the vast majority of us have supported the return of "slower" cars, classic and modern. We just don't want Japanese econoboxes with 60HP.

 

[niky]

GT isn't the only game with Kei cars. Several Japanese titles feature Kei vehicles, though none to the extent that GT does. Auto Modellista for one... and I've had two or three tuning games that included Kei cars... and even one with the Midget I.

-

And of your criticisms of GT's car list... a. and c. are the only ones that really have any basis. People begrudge GT5 its "non-sensical" selections, but people outside of the United States actually do buy Turismo titles because cars that are weird and unusual or too "common" for other games to include, are in it. Are there GT players who are playing it because their daily driver is in it? Yes... yes there are. Are there people who genuinely enjoy driving the Altos and Daihatsu Midgets in the game? Yes... yes there are.

Who first featured the Zonda? Which is the only game series, so far, to feature the Cizeta V16T? The Tank Car?

If you try to appeal to the same demographic as everyone else, then you have a game competing in a crowded market. If you make a name for yourself by featuring everything from the Jaguar S-Type to the iMIEV, you're going to hit demographics nobody else does. (And I quite enjoyed the iMIEV seasonals... and driving the iMIEV in real life, too). GT5 doesn't feature cars on a whim. They put in models that people genuinely enjoy driving in real life. And, as I've said: Some of us enjoy driving 60hp penalty boxes... though the Alto I first hooned so many years ago had a mere 47.

If there's one thing I wish they had less of, it'd be duplicate Skylines and Miatas. Would give us more space for stuff like the Proton Satria GTi or the Mitsubishi Galant AMG.

-

If you've never drifted a rear-heavy Prius on 15" wheels round a roundabout, you're driving it wrong.

 

[SagarisGTB]

The term "small car" can be interpreted a number of different ways. It can refer to a Kei-car, or it can refer to a legitimate enthusiast-geared car like a Mini, Abarth 500, Miata, Capuccino, etc. It can also refer to a number of iconic and/or enthusiast-geared classic cars.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest PD remove those cars from the series. The only cars we want removed from the series are the Japanese econoboxes with 60HP.

Many people in this thread extended the unwelcome nature you have of economy kei-cars to other small cars, such as Demios and Swifts. Maybe the only cars you want to purge from GT are the economy kei-cars but others aren't even that reasonable, which is slightly troubling.

As for the econo kei-cars themselves, there are 7 premium kei-cars in GT5: 5 of them are sporty cars (AZ-1, Copen, OFC-1 concept, two Capps) and another is the historic pioneer electric i-miev. That leaves only one econo-kei car: The Suzuki Cervo SR. Sure, it's not a terribly exciting kei-car, but do you need to make a huge issue over 1 car out of the over 200 premium cars in GT5? Do you really feel the need to purge the poor lonely Cervo out of GT6? I don't really have an issue if you don't want many economy kei cars in GT6, but I don't really think there's much of an issue there to begin with.

It isn't? What other games have K-cars? Hasn't GT always had K-cars? From the very beginning?

Fun fact: GT1 had zero Kei-cars. In fact, only the Demios had less than 100 hp stock and even then, most of them had 99 hp from the dealer.

Not that it means anything about the status of kei-cars in GT.

Also, Enthusia also had kei-cars.

 

[Snaeper]

Why would you trust them? They've already exhibited bad judgement when it comes to car and track selection, as well as the allocation of resources in general.

To you they've exhibited bad judgement. You make it sound like you know how PD works.

I guess liking all cars that were ever produced is a requirement for being a car-lover now. Dammit, I guess I don't like cars then...

Thanks for informing me, though.

I simply said I question it.

Losing 6-10 cars off my wishlist is quite the depressing prospect for me, especially since I strongly suspect GT6 will only have around 500 cars.

It depresses me to hear that something so small like that depresses you.

And the worst part is that I know many of the cars on my wishlist (and probably your wishlist as well) make up other peoples' wishlists as well. So essentially, PD would be letting down the whole American and European GT communities* by blatantly ignoring the American and European fans and putting in Kei-cars instead.

What about the Japanese fans wishlists? They don't exactly post here in large numbers. What about what the Japanese Car Manufacturer's want?

And you're partially right about Kei-cars not appearing on more wishlists because they're so foreign to westerners. But then again, why should I care? The vast majority of us (American and Europeans) will never drive a Kei-car, and thusly, they will never appear on our (American and European) wishlists and that's reason enough for PD to stop including them. None of us (American and European's) are explicitly requesting them and yet they keep including them for some reason. The small group of GT players on GTPlanet are not explicitly requesting them and yet they keep including them for some reason.

Never say never! But let's take a moment to thank PD for giving us the opportunity to continue to drive these unique cars that represent Japanese car culture when we would otherwise be unable to due to us living in different places on the globe.

I also had to fix that paragraph.

The term "small car" can be interpreted a number of different ways. It can refer to a Kei-car, or it can refer to a legitimate enthusiast-geared car like a Mini, Abarth 500, Miata, Capuccino, etc. It can also refer to a number of iconic and/or enthusiast-geared classic cars.

Ahh so you don't consider the Mid-engine Rear Wheel drive K-cars or the Turbocharged all wheel drive K-cars to be enthusiast geared? You think that there are people in Japan who aren't in the market for something that's fun to drive but can't afford anything outside of the K-car range?

GT isn't all that different from Forza. And honestly, the little differences between the two (Kei-cars, paint chip system, etc.) do more harm than good. (BTW if you're wondering, the "harm" being caused Kei-cars is the fact that they have priority over many cars that the American and European GT community has been requesting for years).

K-cars don't do any harm in my opinion. I will agree that the paint-chip system is terribly flawed though.

But try not to make it sound like Forza doesn't also have tons of flaws.

You're right- I think GT is the only game with Kei-cars.

But I still think you're a little bit confused about the average fan's relationship with those cars. The majority voted "yes" on that poll because a) the poll is misleading b) the average fan will take anything they can get from PD, knowing that "they don't have to drive it". However, I'm not a big fan of this mentality in this context, since these Kei-cars are again, diminishing the chances of receiving the cars they really want in the series.

Oh they are? Or you just think they are? We'll never really know.

I do know of a game that starts with an "F" that has less cars than GT5, and yet the fanbase is 10000000000x times happier with the car selection. So if the game that starts with an "F" can do it, so can GT.

Why aren't you playing that game then? Sounds like it's a better fit for you.

And no, it's not a gross and baseless exaggeration. Open up your horizons a bit and realize that the vast majority of this board is made up of people who occasionally complain about GT5's car list and its non-sensical selections.

It wasn't enough to prevent...

Baseless.

... every person under the sun from criticizing GT5's car list, deservedly so (in my humble opinion).

Grossly exaggerated. Followed by an opinion!

1+1= Grossly exaggerated and baseless. Plus an opinion.

Ok look- I expect K-cars too because a) PD is from Japan b) PD doesn't listen to its (American and European) fans enough.

That doesn't mean I'm happy about it, though. Mostly because (you've heard this a thousand times already) it exhibits PD's lack of ability to listen to its (American and European) fans and incorporate more (American and European) cars that actually show up on (American and European) wishlists.

Fixed. Although in reality you should be writing this from the first person.

I still don't see why it's relevant. We all I* know PD models Kei-cars because they don't listen to the (American and European) fans enough and generally do (every little thing) what they want. You weren't shedding any new light there.

Fixed again. Sounds like you need to take a trip to PD and crack that whip!

 

[interpolfan11]

And of your criticisms of GT's car list... a. and c. are the only ones that really have any basis. People begrudge GT5 its "non-sensical" selections, but people outside of the United States actually do buy Turismo titles because cars that are weird and unusual or too "common" for other games to include, are in it. Are there GT players who are playing it because their daily driver is in it? Yes... yes there are. Are there people who genuinely enjoy driving the Altos and Daihatsu Midgets in the game? Yes... yes there are.

My point still stands, though. Forza being a better game doesn't have "everything to do with gameplay". A big reason why it's considered to be better is its car list, whether you only accept points "a" and "c" or all three of them.

If you try to appeal to the same demographic as everyone else, then you have a game competing in a crowded market. If you make a name for yourself by featuring everything from the Jaguar S-Type to the iMIEV, you're going to hit demographics nobody else does. (And I quite enjoyed the iMIEV seasonals... and driving the iMIEV in real life, too).

I really doubt the addition of cars that Americans don't particularly "wish" for impacts GT5's sale that much overseas. I would think it sells well overseas simply because it's the best racing game offered for the PS3.

Also, you're acting like other racing games don't have quirky cars as well.

Many people in this thread extended the unwelcome nature you have of economy kei-cars to other small cars, such as Demios and Swifts. Maybe the only cars you want to purge from GT are the economy kei-cars but others aren't even that reasonable, which is slightly troubling.

I wouldn't mind if PD got rid of the Demios and Swifts and replaced them with something else. Personally, I agree with Earth's cutoff point for how slow modern cars should be in the game-- something like a Chevy Cruze would be fine. And the Capuccino is worth keeping simply because it was made with sportiness in mind. I'm just harping on the kei-cars because I believe they're the most unnecessary types of cars in GT5.

As for the econo kei-cars themselves, there are 7 premium kei-cars in GT5: 5 of them are sporty cars (AZ-1, Copen, OFC-1 concept, two Capps) and another is the historic pioneer electric i-miev. That leaves only one econo-kei car: The Suzuki Cervo SR. Sure, it's not a terribly exciting kei-car, but do you need to make a huge issue over 1 car out of the over 200 premium cars in GT5? Do you really feel the need to purge the poor lonely Cervo out of GT6? I don't really have an issue if you don't want many economy kei cars in GT6, but I don't really think there's much of an issue there to begin with.

I disagree. There's an issue here. PD has shown a propensity for leaving out cars that the community has been begging for, in favor of kei-cars. That's a problem IMO.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I wouldn't mind if PD got rid of the Demios and Swifts and replaced them with something else. Personally, I agree with Earth's cutoff point for how slow modern cars should be in the game-- something like a Chevy Cruze would be fine. I'm just harping on the kei-cars because I believe they're the most unnecessary types of cars in GT5.

Uhh... From what I've read, the Swift Sport and Demio are considered more fun and better cars than the Chevrolet Cruze. And the Cruze shouldn't be much faster, if it is at all.

Personally, I would very much mind if they got rid of the Suzuki Swift for something like a Chevrolet Cruze, which is clearly not a significant upgrade.

I disagree. There's an issue here. PD has shown a propensity for leaving out cars that the community has been begging for, in favor of kei-cars. That's a problem IMO.

1 car. 1 car. 2 if you count the i-miev.

GT4 is a completely different game, the japanese car count in that game is bloated because PD took advantage of the cheap, easy local resource and modeled many japanese cars that were right under their nose. You can argue they could have modeled other foreign cars instead, but you'd be speculating. For one, at the time of GT4, PD didn't have many of the licenses they have now. And stating that the cost of modeling one local inexpensive car is equivalent to modeling a rare foreign supercar is most likely erroneous. Looking at car selection trends among premium GT5 cars is more relevant.

 

[niky]

I really doubt the addition of cars that Americans don't particularly "wish" for impacts GT5's sale that much overseas. I would think it sells well overseas simply because it's the best racing game offered for the PS3.

I personally know people who bought Gran Turismo simply because their specific car was in it. I know people who bought Forza simply because their specific American car was in it and not in Turismo.

Like I said... if you're the only person who's catering to a niche no one else caters to, then you have no competition for those sales.

Also, you're acting like other racing games don't have quirky cars as well.

How many games have as many?

I wouldn't mind if PD got rid of the Demios and Swifts and replaced them with something else. Personally, I agree with Earth's cutoff point for how slow modern cars should be in the game-- something like a Chevy Cruze would be fine. And the Capuccino is worth keeping simply because it was made with sportiness in mind. I'm just harping on the kei-cars because I believe they're the most unnecessary types of cars in GT5.

Compared to the Swift or the Mazda2, the Cruze drives like a big, understeery tractor. I drove one on the racetrack last year and got my ass handed to me. I can take losing down straightaways due to lack of grunt, but the lack of bite from the front-end of the chassis and the lack of mid-corner adjustability was simply unforgiveable.

Unless you've actually driven any of these cars in anger, (properly, mind you) you won't understand the decision making that went into including them.

I disagree. There's an issue here. PD has shown a propensity for leaving out cars that the community has been begging for, in favor of kei-cars. That's a problem IMO.

There's simply no proof that not including Car A means the game will include Car B. Many cars that PD has left out were left out simply due to licensing restrictions. And, again... two premium non-sporting Keis. If there were any car that was bumped off simply to make room for those two, it should have come out in the DLC packs... right?

What's in the DLC? The first one was all racing modified versions of cars already in the game. The second one included only the Golf and the Scirocco as all-new models. The third one... we finally get two sports cars... yet only one which was available before GT5 was released, the Aston Martin V12 Vanquish.



One.



Not one of those Porsches we've been clamoring for all these years. Not an E30 M3 or an E63 AMG wagon. Not a Holden Commodore or a V8 Falcon. No... it's yet another identical-looking Aston Martin.

And not a single Kei car in any of those packs. Of the pre-2011 cars, there's a Prius, but it's a touring car... there's a slow VW, but it's a classic Beetle... and everybody loves classics... no matter how badly they actually drive (which is part of the fascination... swing-axle snap oversteer) and there's an XJR classic racer.

...so...

What cars were shelved completely to make way for Kei cars, again?

 

[interpolfan11]

To you they've exhibited bad judgement. You make it sound like you know how PD works.

To the vast majority of the community they've exhibited bad judgement. Again, go read one of the millions of posts on this forum criticizing PD and their inability to prioritize correctly.

I simply said I question it.

Why? I work on a classic car every day and my car wishlist is 600+ cars, just like yours. The idea of "questioning" my love of cars reeks of elitism and pretentiousness.

It depresses me to hear that something so small like that depresses you.

Why? I'm going to pay for GT6 with my hard-earned money with the full expectation of not having to be disappointed with a car list that mostly consists of what PD wanted to model rather than what the fans wished for.

What about the Japanese fans wishlists? They don't exactly post here in large numbers. What about what the Japanese Car Manufacturer's want?

Japan accounts for a very small portion of PD's sales and yet their cars are still well-represented (perhaps over-represented) in GT games. The Japanese fans will be fine.

Never say never! But let's take a moment to thank PD for giving us the opportunity to continue to drive these unique cars that represent Japanese car culture when we would otherwise be unable to due to us living in different places on the globe.

Nah, I see no need to thank them when I never asked for such an experience. Your posts are growing more and more pompous, though.

I also had to fix that paragraph.

Not everything has to be so black and white, you know. You're acting like one of those kids who corrects their mom when they use expressions like "I'll be there in a second".

"The vast majority of us aren't explicitly requesting them and yet they keep including them for some reason."

Is that better for you? ^

Ahh so you don't consider the Mid-engine Rear Wheel drive K-cars or the Turbocharged all wheel drive K-cars to be enthusiast geared? You think that there are people in Japan who aren't in the market for something that's fun to drive but can't afford anything outside of the K-car range?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a Mini Cooper S, Abarth 500, Capuccino, and Miata are all more enthusiast-geared than a turbocharged kei-car. I know that seems to be the general consensus in America.

And you don't live in Japan so don't say "the general consensus in Japan is that turbocharged kei-cars are actually more enthusiast-geared than the cars you listed". You don't live in Japan so you don't know. We can only judge from American perspective.

K-cars don't do any harm in my opinion.

Their continued return to the series will result in us receiving less of the cars that are actually on our wishlists.

try not to make it sound like Forza doesn't also have tons of flaws.

Its flaws are miniscule compared to GT5. Much of this board and game reviewers would agree with me. Let's stop talking about Forza, though.

Oh they are? Or you just think they are? We'll never really know.

Using common sense, yes, they are. And unless you think models just appear out of thin air, you agree with me.

Why aren't you playing that game then? Sounds like it's a better fit for you.

I play GT5 as well and would like to voice my opinion on how GT6 should be made. That's not such a bad thing, it is?

By the way, the "then play that game if you like it so much" argument is sooooo played out and indicative of when the opposition has no legitimate counter-argument.

Baseless.

"Baseless"? Are you kidding me? The evidence is right in front of your face. Go read one of the millions of posts on this forum that criticizes GT5's car list.

Grossly exaggerated. Followed by an opinion!

Again, you're like a kid who criticizes their mom for using the expression "just a second". And if you're argument has been reduced to doing that, I think I'm winning.

1+1= Grossly exaggerated and baseless. Plus an opinion.

By the way, my "opinions" are actually the opinions of a very large portion of this forum. Haven't you noticed all the complaining about the car list since GT5 came out?

Fixed. Although in reality you should be writing this from the first person.

Ok then, you don't think PD's inability to listen to its American and European fans is a problem? Really? And no, that's not an "opinion" that I just voiced. Us Americans and Europeans continually complain about duplicates and plenty of other topics and yet PD rarely listens and acts on our requests.

Fixed again. Sounds like you need to take a trip to PD and crack that whip!

Again, you've been reduced to doing what children do-- nitpick about common, daily expressions. How about writing a real rebuttal?

Uhh... From what I've read, the Swift Sport and Demio are considered more fun and better cars than the Chevrolet Cruze. And the Cruze shouldn't be much faster, if it is at all.

The Cruze is quite a bit faster, or at least it would be based on its amount of horsepower relative to the Suzuki and the Mazda and how that would affect its performance on a conventional race track. And it's not a matter of being more fun and better cars. It's more of a matter of there being no need for such slow cars in a driving simulator game that can't deliver a realistic sense of speed.

But still, these cars (Swifts, Demios) don't annoy me quite as much as the kei-cars and I rarely see the community complain about them, so I don't think they're really worth discussing.

1 car. 1 car. 2 if you count the i-miev.

No, I think all of those kei-cars, with the exception of the Cappuccino (believe or not, it's much more well-liked than any other kei-car in the game), could leave the series and nobody would bat an eye as long as they were replaced by cars that were actually on peoples' wishlists.

GT4 is a completely different game, the japanese car count in that game is bloated because PD took advantage of the cheap, easy local resource and modeled many japanese cars that were right under their nose. You can argue they could have modeled other foreign cars instead, but you'd be speculating. For one, at the time of GT4, PD didn't have many of the licenses they have now. And stating that the cost of modeling one local inexpensive car is equivalent to modeling a rare foreign supercar is most likely erroneous. Looking at car selection trends among premium GT5 cars is more relevant.

I'm not even talking about GT4. I'm talking about GT5.

PD left out some extremely popular cars in favor of modeling kei-cars, which is silly. And relative to GT5's fairly massive budget, travelling across the world to model cars was not very expensive. So I don't really see that as a valid excuse for not modeling more foreign cars.

 

[niky]

PD left out some extremely popular cars in favor of modeling kei-cars, which is silly. And relative to GT5's fairly massive budget, travelling across the world to model cars was not very expensive. So I don't really see that as a valid excuse for not modeling more foreign cars.

See below.

There's simply no proof that not including Car A means the game will include Car B. Many cars that PD has left out were left out simply due to licensing restrictions. And, again... two premium non-sporting Keis. If there were any car that was bumped off simply to make room for those two, it should have come out in the DLC packs... right?

What's in the DLC? The first one was all racing modified versions of cars already in the game. The second one included only the Golf and the Scirocco as all-new models. The third one... we finally get two sports cars... yet only one which was available before GT5 was released, the Aston Martin V12 Vanquish.



One.



Not one of those Porsches we've been clamoring for all these years. Not an E30 M3 or an E63 AMG wagon. Not a Holden Commodore or a V8 Falcon. No... it's yet another identical-looking Aston Martin.

And not a single Kei car in any of those packs. Of the pre-2011 cars, there's a Prius, but it's a touring car... there's a slow VW, but it's a classic Beetle... and everybody loves classics... no matter how badly they actually drive (which is part of the fascination... swing-axle snap oversteer) and there's an XJR classic racer.

...so...

What cars were shelved completely to make way for Kei cars, again?

And do note... what new cars they decided to model for DLC... not a single Kei car, and no street car under 170-200-odd horsepower.

There's no evidence whatsoever that removing Kei Cars would have meant new cars that "people are clamoring for". To put it more simply... just because you force a person to remove "Stairway to Heaven" from their "Top Twenty Rock Songs of all Time" doesn't mean they'll put "Kashmir" in there, like you wanted them to.

 

[interpolfan11]

See below.

I really, really doubt licensing is the sole reason why PD is missing so many often-requested cars. GT5 was made with a $60-80 million dollar budget while Forza 3 was made with a $15-20 million dollar budget, and yet somehow T10 was able to make a game with many of the cars that are requested here, day in and day out.

(The only exception here is Porsche, as I'm sure the cost to go through EA was insane)

See below.There's no evidence whatsoever that removing Kei Cars would have meant new cars that "people are clamoring for". To put it more simply... just because you force a person to remove "Stairway to Heaven" from their "Top Twenty Rock Songs of all Time" doesn't mean they'll put "Kashmir" in there, like you wanted them to. [/COLOR][/B]

My evidence is common sense. Cars aren't modeled out of thin air, they require resources. And resources that could have been spent on more often-requested cars were instead spent on kei-cars. It's not a licensing issue (considering the budget for GT5 was massive), it's a prioritizing issue.

That's the problem with GT5 in general. PD's priorities were all wrong.

 

[Snaeper]

To the vast majority of the community they've exhibited bad judgement. Again, go read one of the millions of posts on this forum criticizing PD and their inability to prioritize correctly.

The only people that I hear complaining are the ones that complain regardless. You really need to stop posting as if you're speaking for the vast majority. The results of this pole, of which you have been the only one to question it's straight-forwardness, show that you are in the minority.

I seriously doubt that of the 7 million posts on GTPlanet, 1-2 Million of them are people complaining about GT's car list. That is another gross exaggeration in an attempt to give strength to your argument. Even then. GTPlanet represents a very small portion of GT's audience. PD could take some ideas from what we say, but by no means are we close to representing how all of the millions (7.43 million to be exact) of GT Players out there feel.

Why? I'm going to pay for GT6 with my hard-earned money with the full expectation of not having to be disappointed with a car list that mostly consists of what PD wanted to model rather than what the fans wished for.

PD does not base it's car lists solely on what the fans wish for. So prepare to be disappointed.

Nah, I see no need to thank them when I never asked for such an experience. Your posts are growing more and more pompous, though.

No, you most certainly don't. 86 people that voted in this thread feel the differently, though.

And I apologize for my tone, but you need to switch your perspective from your own selfish one and consider the needs of the millions of other people playing GT. Despite what you might think and say, there is obviously a vast majority of people that feel differently. Enough of a majority that PD has continued to justify putting K-cars in every title since GT2 apparently (thank you Sagaris, I wasn't sure).

Not everything has to be so black and white, you know. You're acting like one of those kids who corrects their mom when they use expressions like "I'll be there in a second".

Black and White? This coming from the guy who offered to make a poll that was going to require you to choose between a K-car and a Super car and not offer the option of "Both" since that one would win and his point would be moot.

I've already made my point above as to why I'm correcting you. Don't try to write your generalizations off as figures of speech.

"The vast majority of us aren't explicitly requesting them and yet they keep including them for some reason."

Is that better for you? ^

Again, what vast majority? If we take this thread as a sample of all active users in GTPlanet, you're in the Minority. And then if we remember that GTPlanet itself is a, albeit passionate and vocal, minority that makes you in a very, very small minority.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a Mini Cooper S, Abarth 500, Capuccino, and Miata are all more enthusiast-geared than a turbocharged kei-car. I know that seems to be the general consensus in America.

And you don't live in Japan so don't say "the general consensus in Japan is that turbocharged kei-cars are actually more enthusiast-geared than the cars you listed". You don't live in Japan so you don't know. We can only judge from American perspective.

We can't judge from either perspective. We can only judge from our own perspective. Don't speak for everyone in America. Nobody gave you permission.

Their continued return to the series will result in us receiving less of the cars that are actually on our wishlists.

How do you know that? That's practically an AUP violation.

]You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Its flaws (in my opinion) are miniscule compared to GT5. Much of this board and game reviewers would agree with me. Let's stop talking about Forza, though.

Hey, you brought it up. I fixed that again for you. Don't state things as fact.

Using (my) common sense amazing guesswork, yes, they are. And unless you think models just appear out of thin air, you agree with me.

You don't know this. Let's play with an idea here: What if the option is Kei Car A and Kei Car B?

Either way you lose, apparently.

I play GT5 as well and would like to voice my opinion on how GT6 should be made. That's not such a bad thing, it is?

More power to you! Just stop speaking for everyone else and realize that your opinions are actually in the minority.

"Baseless"? Are you kidding me? The evidence is right in front of your face. Go read one of the millions of posts on this forum that criticizes GT5's car list.

Where? All I see is you telling me that you don't want K-cars because they'll supposedly prevent more desirable cars from being included in the game.

I've read a good deal of posts on this forum since I've came here back in '07 and they were all pretty positive. Now if you'd like to prove me wrong and find me a few threads (since they're apparently in abundance) please feel free to link me as I don't really know what terms to begin searching by.

If, for some reason, you're unable to do so, I can only assume that they don't exist.

By the way, my "opinions" are actually the opinions of a very large portion of this forum. Haven't you noticed all the complaining about the car list since GT5 came out?

Nope, otherwise I wouldn't be here arguing with you. Now please try to bring up another point or at least a credible source rather than continuing to say "All these people are complaining" over and over again. And you think my argument is weak.

Ok then, you don't think PD's inability to listen to its American and European fans is a problem?

They seem to listen to us just fine. Tire smoke, reverse lights, damage, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mclaren, Spa, Bathurst, DLC, online, weather, time change, etc. All things I do recall people asking for and complaining about.

Which reminds me, the biggest things I recall people complaining about were the inclusion of Standards and the continued duplicates of Japanese cars like the NSX, Miata and Skyline GT-R.

Really? And no, that's not an "opinion" that I just voiced. Us Americans and Europeans continually complain about duplicates and plenty of other topics and yet PD rarely listens and acts on our requests.

You're half right and half wrong. You're right in that we Americans and Europeans continually complain (You'll have to wonder why they would listen to us at all). You're wrong in that you think PD doesn't listen, I'll remind you of my above post. Plenty of content has been added that the fans have called for. Including ridiculous things like skid/tire marks and reverse lights.

Again, you've been reduced to doing what children do-- nitpick about common, daily expressions. How about writing a real rebuttal?

How about writing an argument that isn't based on your opinions that you try to make sound like are the shared opinions of every GT player ever? You can talk down to me all you like.

 

[dr_slump]

And you're partially right about Kei-cars not appearing on more wishlists because they're so foreign to westerners. But then again, why should I care? The vast majority of us will never drive a Kei-car, and thusly, they will never appear on our wishlists and that's reason enough for PD to stop including them.

I see Kei-cars every day here in europe.

It's not the majority of course, but what for a majority drives supercars as example?
Why I'm asking this? Well, you talk about wishlists and the most requested cars are simply supercars and also racecars. The cars in wishlists aren't automatically the most used cars on this planet.

 

[Samus]

So all these people saying they want the little Japanese boxes, is it because you actually drive them or just because you think it's a GT staple and they need to stay, even though you don't use them?

Because if nobody/very few people are using them what is the point? Remember the vast majority of them are standard so if you do want them in GT6 and all of the cars are premium you/PD ARE choosing between them and other more desirable cars. They have to be remodeled from scratch, just as any other new car has to be.

So given the choice you guys would really prefer PD to model 10 Kei cars from scratch rather than 10 more desirable cars that more people have said they want?

 

[finnracer]

interpolfan11 - if you are so fond of Forza's carlist (it is good) and so critical of GT's (Good with even more variety) then nobody is stopping you from swapping sides or even getting both. K-cars and small cars are great fun and would be even more so with some more suitable tracks and race series and I would take a 63hp Suzuki Alto Works over a Bugatti Veyron SSR Grand Shiny Spiro edition as it is a far more enjoyable car to drive and tune.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Deleted. Not getting involved. >_>'

 

[niky]

My evidence is common sense. Cars aren't modeled out of thin air, they require resources. And resources that could have been spent on more often-requested cars were instead spent on kei-cars. It's not a licensing issue (considering the budget for GT5 was massive), it's a prioritizing issue.

Your evidence is merely opinion, with little factual basis. Again... how many premiums are Kei cars, and how many are supercars? How many of the cars modelled and released as DLC since release are Kei cars?

If you ask me, the priorities of Polyphony Digital are pretty obvious. GT-R, special edition GT-R, GT-R racecar... Then everything else. But then, that's also an opinion, with no basis except personal bias.

Yes, actually modellig cars takes up resources... But it's pretty obvious that even in the absence of modelling new Kei cars, PD still isn't modelling the cars you want it to model, even in DLC. The cars at the top of the wishlists? Nowhere to be seen.

 

[TheEnd35000vr]

Well, that seems to have escalated quickly. ._.

Anyway, personally I would like them in the game. The game is claimed to be The Real Driving Simulator, so I would expect them to be in the game like any other type of car. I mean, some people clearly would be infuriated if they were left out. Imagine if there was no supercars in the game for example. I don't think many people who enjoys driving them would be impressed.

If you can manage to equally balance the amount of each type of car, with enough variety so it doesn't become boring, I would think that would keep most people happy. (Except the minority of people who reguarly ask for more.)

 

[Samus]

Well, that seems to have escalated quickly. ._.

Anyway, personally I would like them in the game. The game is claimed to be The Real Driving Simulator, so I would expect them to be in the game like any other type of car. I mean, some people clearly would be infuriated if they were left out. Imagine if there was no supercars in the game for example. I don't think many people who enjoys driving them would be impressed.

If you can manage to equally balance the amount of each type of car, with enough variety so it doesn't become boring, I would think that would keep most people happy. (Except the minority of people who reguarly ask for more.)

Yes but supercars are clearly one of the most popular types of cars in any racing game, are the little kei cars popular enough to warrant spending 6 months of man hours making premium versions of them? That's what PD have to ask themselves and I do hope they have data to make that decision with.

 

[counter345]

So all these people saying they want the little Japanese boxes, is it because you actually drive them or just because you think it's a GT staple and they need to stay, even though you don't use them?

Because if nobody/very few people are using them what is the point? Remember the vast majority of them are standard so if you do want them in GT6 and all of the cars are premium you/PD ARE choosing between them and other more desirable cars. They have to be remodeled from scratch, just as any other new car has to be.

So given the choice you guys would really prefer PD to model 10 Kei cars from scratch rather than 10 more desirable cars that more people have said they want?

"So all these people saying they want the little Japanese boxes, is it because you actually drive them or just because you think it's a GT staple and they need to stay, even though you don't use them?"

Clearly, quite a lot of GT fans do use them, and using them can be fun when given the right environment e.g a twisty track.

"Because if nobody/very few people are using them what is the point? "

'the point' is to offer as much variety as possible when it comes to the real driving simulator. A whole racing sim with just supercars/hypercars isn't varied.

 

[Samus]

...and I already said that isn't what I want, it's just there are limits when it comes to enjoying small cars, as already covered in the thread.