[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Sanji Himura]

Also to Note the USA one only counts Federal Tax not State or Local tax which comes under their tax bracket.

That is because in some states, like here in Texas, don't have a state income tax. I wouldn't have even mentioned Denmark's municipal income tax had some municipalities not even collect it, which is sadly not the case here. Furthermore, any sales tax, or VAT that is collected here in the USA isn't set at the federal level. They are levied by State governments (45 states) and local governments (38 states allow local governments to collect). Hence why you may have a state that has a rate of 6.25%, but inside that state, you may have varying rates from anywhere of 6.75% to 8.25% from city to city.

 

[Biggles]

very first set of data there is titled "Gallup gross median income"...
Again it looks like you have linked to the wrong thing, but one of those tables does at least now show net wages. And it shows that net wages in the lead country - the USA - are 50% higher than in the second place country - the UK... The first Scandinavian country there has net wages nearly 20% lower than the UK.

This might be a good time to ignore all the billionaires in the USA and UK (but not Norway, Sweden, Finland or Denmark), because that data will need quite some skewing to put the average American financially worse off than anyone.

As I pointed out: there's a lot of information on this website:

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/

I haven't gone over all of it in detail to extract the relevant conclusions. It's not an uncomplicated subject.

I don't know if any of those numbers can be trusted but I do know if the best solution a candidate can come up with is to mimic another country, well.

It's not a question of "mimicking" it's being open to draw on the experiences of other countries. It's always struck me that one of the odd things about the US is a constitutional unwillingness to learn from the experiences of other countries. It's like thinking that, as an individual, you couldn't possibly learn anything from other individuals' experiences.

 

[squadops]

We learned plenty from them during WWII if you ask me.

There is no possible way that Bernie can or will do anything good for the U.S. economy and suggesting a Danish model is pretty weak.

 

[Dotini]

It's always struck me that one of the odd things about the US is a constitutional unwillingness to learn from the experiences of other countries. It's like thinking that, as an individual, you couldn't possibly learn anything from other individuals' experiences.

The US Constitution is tethered in time to that zenith of human intellectual and moral development, The Enlightenment, from which we have since sadly declined. As you allude, it is set in stone, and this is seen as a great virtue by its beneficiaries. That you are not a US person and thus not a beneficiary of our constitution may be grounds for jealousy, or for antagonism.

 

[squadops]

His country benefits from the U.S. however, unless he lives in Quebec, in which case he might not be interested in either country

See below, pity the greatest country on earth?

 

[mustafur]

or grounds of Pity.

 

[Biggles]

Not antagonism or jealousy. What I admire about the US is the tradition of liberal, open mindedness that characterizes a certain aspect of US society. The identification of "conservative, family values" as being the bedrock foundation of American society has always struck me as odd. "Conservative family values" is what characterizes patriarchal, backward societies like Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Iraq & many others (not just Muslim).

Set-in-stone is not a good thing IMO ... not at all. The period of "Enlightenment" was a period in which slavery & other many other societal evils thrived.

The spectacle of the present US political process at work does inspire a certain degree of pity.

 

[squadops]

The spectacle of the present US political process at work does inspire a certain degree of pity.

I'll give you that part, but at least Johnson and a few others are still around.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not antagonism or jealousy. What I admire about the US is the tradition of liberal, open mindedness that characterizes a certain aspect of US society. The identification of "conservative, family values" as being the bedrock foundation of American society has always struck me as odd. "Conservative family values" is what characterizes patriarchal, backward societies like Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Iraq & many others (not just Muslim).

Set-in-stone is not a good thing IMO ... not at all. The period of "Enlightenment" was a period in which slavery & other many other societal evils thrived.

The spectacle of the present US political process at work does inspire a certain degree of pity.

Who in their right mind would mention American conservative family values in the same paragraph as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia et. al, as if there is any relevant comparison between them?

 

[Dotini]

What I admire about the US is the tradition of liberal, open mindedness that characterizes a certain aspect of US society. The identification of "conservative, family values" as being the bedrock foundation of American society has always struck me as odd. "Conservative family values" is what characterizes patriarchal, backward societies like Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, Iraq & many others (not just Muslim).

Set-in-stone is not a good thing IMO ... not at all. The period of "Enlightenment" was a period in which slavery & other many other societal evils thrived.

You speak here of "everyman", the commoner or yeoman, middle or working class person that typifies Americans. We are equal in opportunity and can rise according to our industry and capacity for honest work. Or could, until the corporate globalists gave away our works to Chinese communists and illegal immigrants.

Patriarchy is an institution that has been with us for 10,000 years. WE institutionalized suffrage, feminism, and full rights for women. Although I personally bemoan the loss of certain aspects of chivalry, and personally remain helplessly alpha.

Slavery was an institution that also has been around for millennia. WE extirpated slavery at the cost of a terrible civil war. Though slavery remains commonplace elsewhere. But not even we seem able to totally eliminate racism. How about you?

So, in summary, please spare us from your PC piety of "a constitutional unwillingness to learn from the experiences of other countries".

Oh, and you can hold your pity for our political process, too. Although a certain amount of amusement, or even laughter, is understandable.

 

[Biggles]

Who in their right mind would mention American conservative family values in the same paragraph as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia et. al, as if there is any relevant comparison between them?

Yes there is.

Patriarchy is an institution that has been with us for 10,000 years. WE institutionalized suffrage, feminism, and full rights for women.

Exactly. What made the US "exceptional" was not "conservative family values", which backward places in the world continue to (religiously) advocate, it was the progressive values of universal suffrage, equality under law, full rights for women, feminism etc. that made the US exceptional.

(Incidentally, the US did eventually extirpate slavery, but was one of the very last Western countries to do so.)

spare us from your PC piety of "a constitutional unwillingness to learn from the experiences of other countries".

I have no idea what PC piety has to do with this? An unwillingness to learn from the experience of others has nothing to do with "political correctness".

 

[squadops]

I have no idea what PC piety has to do with this? An unwillingness to learn from the experience of others has nothing to do with "political correctness".

We did learn though, why do you think we fought so hard for independance?

It's starting to be comical those living outside the U.S. and all their support for Bernie, perhaps he could move to Canada instead. At least it's closer

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes there is.

Well now I'm convinced

 

[squadops]

Well now I'm convinced

You didn't realize that we enforce our ridiculous family values on the population via sharia law and suicide bombings?

 

[Pillo-san]

Hmm. What is happening with this thread, it looks like it is a USA vs rest of the rest of the world thread.
One thing that I think is funny is that Americans are saying that they live in the land of the free and yet they are not allowed to wander where ever they want in the woods/parks and such. And why does a citizen/person not have free health care, if I break a leg or something, I will not need to pay a fortune for my health care, it is almost free. I would vote for Sanders as he seems to be the only normal/sane person in this crazy race for presidency. What he says is very sober and it is the direction the worlds richest and mightiest country must take for the better of its citizens and the rest of the world. USA can not any more turn a blind eye about how backwater and unjust it is compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hmm. What is happening with this thread, it looks like it is a USA vs rest of the rest of the world thread.
One thing that I think is funny is that Americans are saying that they live in the land of the free and yet they are not allowed to wander where ever they want in the woods/parks and such. And why does a citizen/person not have free health care, if I break a leg or something, I will not need to pay a fortune for my health care, it is almost free. I would vote for Sanders as he seems to be the only normal/sane person in this crazy race for presidency. What he says is very sober and it is the direction the worlds richest and mightiest country must take for the better of its citizens and the rest of the world. USA can not any more turn a blind eye about how backwater and unjust it is compared to the rest of the world.

What country in the world has free health care? Who would work for free providing free health care? How would these free health care workers provide for their own families? Who would donate the infrastructure and equipment necessary for free health care?

 

[Biggles]

You didn't realize that we enforce our ridiculous family values on the population via sharia law and suicide bombings?

The point I am making is that it is not conservative "family values" that made the US exceptional, it was the progressive values of universal suffrage, equality under law, full rights for women, feminism etc. What I admire about the US is its progressive qualities.

 

[Pillo-san]

It is simple, it is based on taxation. Every one needs to help out so that every citizen has the right to be healthy so that he/she can be able to lead an productive life in the society. The thing is, that many countries are being more and more USA like, taxes are lowering, people are getting worse health care and productivity is at the same time going down. In time Usa will be like rest of the modern world and we will be like Usa is today, everything goes in cycles.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Every one needs to help out so that every citizen has the right to be healthy so that he/she can be able to lead an productive life in the society.

We also have the right to live as unhealthily as possible and be an unproductive member of society too. Just take our growing prison problem for example.

 

[Biggles]

It is simple, it is based on taxation. Every one needs to help out so that every citizen has the right to be healthy so that he/she can be able to lead an productive life in the society. The thing is, that many countries are being more and more USA like, taxes are lowering, people are getting worse health care and productivity is at the same time going down. In time Usa will be like rest of the modern world and we will be like Usa is today, everything goes in cycles.

I'm not sure it's a "cycle". It's the normal course of things. The post Second World War period was exceptional in advancing the prosperity of the working & middle classes with the introduction of higher marginal tax rates, social security measures, universal health care wide, spread access to higher education etc. Since the 1980s' & "trickle down" economics the move towards greater equality has been reversed & the normal pattern of increasing concentration of wealth has returned.

 

[Pillo-san]

We also have the right to live as unhealthily as possible and be an unproductive member of society too. Just take our growing prison problem for example.

So do we, but the thing about your prions is that it seems not to be about people being hardcore criminals but that they do not have sufficient funds to pay simple tickets.

 

[squadops]

The point I am making is that it is not conservative "family values" that made the US exceptional, it was the progressive values of universal suffrage, equality under law, full rights for women, feminism etc. What I admire about the US is its progressive qualities.

Meh, it is our strong family values that have afforded this liberty you speak of, not the other way around.

We also have the right to live as unhealthily as possible

*Cough, Obamacare, *Cough

 

[Johnnypenso]

The point I am making is that it is not conservative "family values" that made the US exceptional, it was the progressive values of universal suffrage, equality under law, full rights for women, feminism etc. What I admire about the US is its progressive qualities.

Odd, I thought what made America exceptional was putting political power into the hands of the people at a time when everyone else in the world was governed by Kings and Sultans and various other forms of dictators. All men are created equal, the right to keep and bear arms, religious liberty enshrined in the Constitution, the right to the fruits of their own labour, the right to acquire, keep and sell property, freedom of speech, freedom of the press etc. Without that foundation laid nearly 2 and a half centuries ago, none of the rest of it, including suffrage, progressive liberalism, full rights for women etc. would ever have happened.

It is simple, it is based on taxation. Every one needs to help out so that every citizen has the right to be healthy so that he/she can be able to lead an productive life in the society. The thing is, that many countries are being more and more USA like, taxes are lowering, people are getting worse health care and productivity is at the same time going down. In time Usa will be like rest of the modern world and we will be like Usa is today, everything goes in cycles.

Currently the "1%" pay about half the income taxes collected in the U.S. and nearly half of U.S households pay no federal income tax. So if "everyone needs to help out" then what do you do with the half that pay no federal income tax since they aren't helping out?

 

[squadops]

What makes America great is our Constitution, something people like Bernie wish to trample.

 

[Pillo-san]

I do not believe that the 1% pay any significant percentage on their taxes, if they do it is only a small percentage of what their income really is. You even have states that are used as tax heavens similar to the Panama scandal where wealthy individuals and corporations hides from federal taxes. An ordinary citizen here pay about 1/3 of his income to taxes and 1/4 of what he buy is sales tax. I do believe an ordinary person in Usa have to pay tax when he goes to work and every time he buys stuff too, does he not?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I do not believe that the 1% pay any significant percentage on their taxes, if they do it is only a small percentage of what their income really is. You even have states that are used as tax heavens similar to the Panama scandal where wealthy individuals and corporations hides from federal taxes. An ordinary citizen here pay about 1/3 of his income to taxes and 1/4 of what he buy is sales tax. I do believe an ordinary person in Usa have to pay tax when he goes to work and every time he buys stuff too, does he not?

What you believe is irrelevant. The truth is the 1% pay half the federal income taxes and half of households pay none. So again I ask, if you want everyone to help out, what are you going to do with the half of households that don't help out?

If someone is revealed in these Panama papers to be illegally avoiding taxation they will be prosecuted no? If it's legal then no prosecution. Don't blame people for finding legal ways to avoid handing money over to the government for no benefit. Maybe when you start paying 5 or 6 figures in federal taxes you'll be paying regular visits to a tax accountant and other financial advisors and finding creative yet legal ways to minimize your tax burden as I'm sure some of us here do.

 

[squadops]

What is the cut off number, something around $55,000 a year in order to actually pay any federal tax at all

Here is the deal, class warfare is a joke that the liberals have been using for years. This idea of wealth redistribution is killing our economy and once again it's a large reason that Bernie is not electable.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I do not believe that the 1% pay any significant percentage on their taxes, if they do it is only a small percentage of what their income really is. You even have states that are used as tax heavens similar to the Panama scandal where wealthy individuals and corporations hides from federal taxes. An ordinary citizen here pay about 1/3 of his income to taxes and 1/4 of what he buy is sales tax. I do believe an ordinary person in Usa have to pay tax when he goes to work and every time he buys stuff too, does he not?

When our tax policies are favourable to businesses, and not special interests, then things like the Panama Papers doesn't need to happen. Regardless, the 1% do chip in about half of the federal budget year over year. The issue is when you have people like Bernie Sanders who wants to raise the highest income tax bracket, currently at 40%, to 90% (and proportionally down the bracket), and raise the Capital Gains and Death taxes.

What you obviously don't understand is that as more people are getting into the stock market, and are saving for retirement, they want to pass down that wealth to their children. Would you rather have any money that you may die with go to your children, or to the government? If your answer is The Government, then you need to sell all that you own and give the proceeds to the government.

 

[squadops]

http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2015/2/obama-estate-tax-plan-die-once-get-taxed-twice

Just dropping this to inforce what @Sanji Himura is saying 👍

These types of folks would have you think that every person should start from ground zero with nothing, just to keep it fair. Meanwhile they will swoop up all the money and do whatever they please with it.

I've worked very hard in my life and my kids deserve to prosper from that, not the government or whoever they feel like giving it to.

 

[Pillo-san]

again, you are talking about money that are not needed if the health care and education and all that infrastructure is provided by the state through everybody's tax money.

55K dollars is a lot of cash, here we pay tax 1/3 of the income from as from as low as 8k/ year. Usually everything over 40K dollars/year is 50% extra. If I earn about 1000 dollar over 40k then the taxation will be 50% on that 1000 dollars. there are some small variations, I am just telling you how I have it.

a company should just like an individual be paying his share in taxes, other way it is not fair. why should a company or rich persons be allowed to pay lower percentage of their income? Can you not see that? How come we have money to buy things and to save up money for our children. can you not see that our system works and we have a lot more freedom than you in the states? How do you explain that?