[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Blood Eagle]

That's only true if the second was always intended to protect an individual right to bear arms. SCOTUS didn't hold that to be the case until Heller, 217 years after it was adopted.

The pro-gun crowd doesn't get to pretend their view is infallibly the only one with constitutional merit.

SCOTUS also determined that Police Officers don't have a Constitutional obligation to protect anyone. The anti-gun crowd always advocates that Police Officers and Military should be the only people to have access to firearms to protect you. They have no Constitutional obligation. Let that sink in. Disarm civilians and Police? They carry the gun to protect themselves. Not you. Don't demonize people who go against your own beliefs on something they can legally do and you choose not to. I'm not saying you do, but many anti-gunners do.

 

[squadops]

Well I haven't seen much logic from you anyway, so it's no surprise I'm not finding any here.

Why would you put your life on the line for something you do not believe in? It is you who makes zero sense, I figure it's how you are able to sleep at night however.

Keep on enjoying the life our country provides and ignoring what we have to do in order for you to have it.

 

[mustafur]

@mustafur

As you wish, I might only bat .500 but I can promise you that the u.s. is still not interested in anything remotely related to socialism because there is a strong belief that it leads down that nasty road. We've been there.

Broken record since it seems so easily ignored, our country was formed against all that socialism is designed to do, later on we saw the world wars and also the cold war. It leaves a very nasty taste in the mouths of our elders, mainly the ones who vote. Both parties know this, that is why we are not a democracy, even with a Bernie movement they are our safety net.

As much as you do not like it, we are not a democracy for a very important reason. Democracy and socialism fail in the eyes of our founders and I'll be damned if we have not been the greatest country on earth for longer than anything else I can think of.

That is why, argue all you want.



A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Most people have no idea what that means 👍

Maybe you should lay off this assumption strategy you have been holding, it's blinding reality from you: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...er-clinton-sanders-in-bloomberg-poll-im63yb0w

 

[Tornado]

That's only true if the second was always intended to protect an individual right to bear arms. SCOTUS didn't hold that to be the case until Heller, 217 years after it was adopted.

DC vs Heller's majority opinion seemed to do a pretty thorough job explaining why it was always intended to mean as such. There was, of course, dissent nearly as lengthy as the majority, but it does a disservice to the actual case to act like they just decided "sure, guns are fine in 2008" or whatever.

 

[squadops]

Maybe you should lay off this assumption strategy you have been holding, it's blinding reality from you:

Nope, I know what our laws say and why they were written, there is no assumption at all.

 

[mustafur]

Nope, I know what our laws say and why they were written, there is no assumption at all.

Because your Pivoting again i'll highlight it for you so you can understand the point better.

I might only bat .500 but I can promise you that the u.s. is still not interested in anything remotely related to socialism because there is a strong belief that it leads down that nasty road. We've been there.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...er-clinton-sanders-in-bloomberg-poll-im63yb0w

 

[CodeRedR51]

Keep on enjoying the life our country provides and ignoring what we have to do in order for you to have it.

I'm not ignoring anything. Just because I don't support the reason we are at war doesn't mean I don't support my country. Quit with the assumptions, it's making you look like an ass.

 

[squadops]

I'm not ignoring anything. Just because I don't support the reason we are at war doesn't mean I don't support my country. Quit with the assumptions, it's making you look like an ass.

It's very hard to draw that distinction when you do not practice what you preach.

@mustafur 1/2 a party that not even 1/2 the country supports is your argument?

 

[Pillo-san]

900m/sec what the heck is that in relation to? Do they measure weapons by velocity where you come from? Also how do you go from talking about the USA to British, when you say you're directing it at one and not the other.



Sure it is when you've been informed about the facts and you continue to push on a fallacy, while in debate with a mod even...

Civilians can't get them because there is a large background check done by government law enforcement, then you have to pay a tax that most people can't afford on a yearly basis, for a gun they can't purchase most times anyways due to being quite expensive.



With automatic guns? None. Since your avoiding the issues you posed and trying to move the goal post. Owning a gun does equal freedom it says so in our bill of rights (U.S. citizens).

First, when I was talking about automatic/semi automatic and all that military grade and about the speed of the bullet is that when I was in military there was an international limit on how fast a gun could be if I remember correctly. It was quite some time now, but I know that our weapons were allowed the max muzzle speed. Our guns where maxed out at 933m/sec or something I think it was. A higher velocity weapon could shred/rip a person to bits.

About the accidents with guns it was meant to be guns over all, could not care less if it was pistols or rifles.

and

@Sanji Himura

you are just marking words, be my guest, as a citizen in a Scandinavian country that is based on democratic socialist system, please do point out how and where we fail at being free? Please explain to me how we fail in anything market wise and stuff. I am all yours.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It's very hard to draw that distinction when you do not practice what you preach.

Enlighten me.

 

[mustafur]

It's very hard to draw that distinction when you do not practice what you preach.

@mustafur 1/2 a party that not even 1/2 the country supports is your argument?

again maybe you should read the whole thing, look at how he compares to everyone else, if you scroll down.

He is the only nominee from either side to be preferred in every matchup.

 

[squadops]

Enlighten me.

It is not an assumption mind you, do you not reap all the rewards? Or do you actually stand up against what you believe to be false or unfair to the world or however your thinking works? I will not paint you with a brush so don't get the wrong idea, you remind me of something I have said in this thread probably before;

I saw a soccer mom in a huge suv with a bumper sticker that said no more blood for oil, I would bet you doughnuts to dollars she would be against local drilling as well. The pie will not fall from the sky, that is what I am saying, perhaps I'm simply asking you to consider some reality over idealism.

@mustafur I'm not buying it, I'm no spring chicken and I'm very active in the community, even the most left with power that I see(in my area) the dem catholic, would not touch Bernie with a ten foot pool, and they are progressive. It's simply what I see and when this campaign is over you will see that I am correct.

I've been around a few more blocks than you have

 

[mustafur]

It is not an assumption mind you, you do you not reap all the rewards? Or do you actually stand up against what you believe to be false or unfair to the world or however your thinking works? I will not paint you with a brush so don't get the wrong idea, you remind me of something I have said in this thread probably before;

I saw a soccer mom in a huge suv with a bumper sticker that said no more blood for oil, I would bet you doughnuts to dollars she would be against local drilling as well. The pie will not fall from the sky, that is what I am saying, perhaps I'm simply asking you to consider some reality over idealism.

@mustafur I'm not buying it, I'm no spring chicken and I'm very active in the community, even the most left with power that I see(in my area) the dem catholic, would not touch Bernie with a ten foot pool, and they are progressive. It's simply what I see and when this campaign is over you will see that I am correct.

I've been around a few more blocks than you have

What City and state is this?

To add a demographic for your apparent ''census data.''

 

[Blood Eagle]

First, when I was talking about automatic/semi automatic and all that military grade and about the speed of the bullet is that when I was in military there was an international ban on how fast a gun could be if I remember correctly. I was quite some time now, but I know that our weapons were allowed the max muzzle speed. our guns where maxed out at 933m/sec or something I think it was. A higher velocity weapon could shred/rip a person to bits.

933 mps = 3,061.2 fps. But you advocate hunting rifles for self defense. How much muzzle velocity do you think something that is designed to take down large game has? Your typical 30-06 hunting rifle cartage is around that number but you think a .22 caliber .223 or 5.56 mm bullet would do more damage because they have a higher muzzle velocity around 3,000 - 3500 fps or 914.4 - 1066.8 mps? Believe me, the 30-06 will do more damage. Your typical AK47 7.62 x 39 will be about 2,400 fps or 731.52 mps which is well under your 933 mps limitation and also will do more damage than an AR15's "Military Assault Rifle" high velocity round. Bullets are fast.

 

[squadops]

@mustafur

I travel a lot, I spend time in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington, etc.(now this would be flags on the porch, bibles on the coffee table, and guns on the wall) But to be specific to your question, I'm speaking of NM. Believe it or not however those liberal Catholic types are thick on the east coast, I have lots of family back there and I know who those Christians are and how they think. Liberal yes, very, socialist? no.

Sure ask me for this stat and that if you please, just wait and see what I am telling you is true, if you want to know a bit more of those people just follow some of the mayoral and governor races in cities such as NYC and anywhere else there are plenty of Catholics.

It should not be made into such a big deal imo, I'm just sayin.

@Blood Eagle he has no idea what he is talking about other than the fact he doesn't think common people have a right to arms, only the government does of course

 

[Pillo-san]

Keep on enjoying the life our country provides and ignoring what we have to do in order for you to have it.

I don't want to impose, but you said that Usa does not want to be a socialist like country.. so how could Usa provide for him so that he can enjoy his life?

@Blood Eagle

I do not remember the correct speed of the max allowed muzzle speed at the time, but shooting with a gun like that would result in either the bullet climbing in the body, bouncing against the skeleton. I could shoot somebody in the foot and it could come out in the pelvis. And it could rip a person in two.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It is not an assumption mind you, you do you not reap all the rewards?

Like you and the rest of the population that are not in the military? But go ahead, single me out.

 

[squadops]

I wish I could tell you of my family and so forth, but I feel I cannot on the web. However I can speak for myself, I have done extensive contract work with Los Alamos Labs, Sandia Labs, White Sands missile range as well as many air force bases around here. All my life.

I happened to have the privilege to grow up with the Oppenheimer family, now please do not think I am puffed up, it's just that I've been around it my whole life, I know what they do, and I know why they do it. If I was not behind their very difficult decisions I would do something about it.

The world is cruel, and I've always said "I'm only as bad as you need me to be" which side of the isle would you like to be on because there is no Swiss here.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I wish I could tell you of my family and so forth, but I feel I cannot on the web. However I can speak for myself, I have done extensive contract work with Los Alamos Labs, Sandia Labs, White Sands missile range as well as many air force bases around here. All my life.

I happened to have the privilege to grow up with the Oppenheimer family, now please do not think I am puffed up, it's just that I've been around it my whole life, I know what they do, and I know why they do it. If I was not behind their very difficult decisions I would do something about it.

The world is cruel, and I've always said "I'm only as bad as you need me to be" which side of the isle would you like to be on because there is no Swiss here.

You've worked around the military, but you were not IN the military, correct? So you are no different than me.

 

[squadops]

Correct.

 

[Joel]

What are you going to be, one of those guys that says he supports the troops but not the war? It doesn't work that way. They were protecting our interests, now if you do not care for our interests than that would be a different thing.

Why does supporting the people in the military and its existence as an institution mean supporting the way it's used? If you don't believe a particular mission is necessary then it's perfectly reasonable to oppose soldiers being sent to fight in it.

 

[squadops]

I already explained that, you'd have to oppose the troops too.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

First, when I was talking about automatic/semi automatic and all that military grade and about the speed of the bullet is that when I was in military there was an international limit on how fast a gun could be if I remember correctly. It was quite some time now, but I know that our weapons were allowed the max muzzle speed. Our guns where maxed out at 933m/sec or something I think it was. A higher velocity weapon could shred/rip a person to bits.

No one measure a gun in velocity. I've done competition shooting, and been taught about various weapons, and handled various weapons from a young age. I've also had friends in the military. Now muzzle velocity is a thing but it's about how the projectile fired travels at a certain velocity based on a few things (e.g. grain, composition). The way you put it is as confusing as others have said you come across.

About the accidents with guns it was meant to be guns over all, could not care less if it was pistols or rifles.

That's great but you jump from automatic weapons to all weapons, moving the goal post to fit your argument. When in reality you were basing freedom of owning military grade hardware not all weapons.

I already explained that, you'd have to oppose the troops too.

That's backwards thinking, you've been asked to explain. Can you do so or not? I don't need a heart string story about your line of work, either. Thanks in advance.

 

[Pillo-san]

No one measure a gun in velocity. I've done competition shooting, and been taught about various weapons, and handled various weapons from a young age. I've also had friends in the military. Now muzzle velocity is a thing but it's about how the projectile fired travels at a certain velocity based on a few things (e.g. grain, composition). The way you put it is as confusing as others have said you come across.



That's great but you jump from automatic weapons to all weapons, moving the goal post to fit your argument. When in reality you were basing freedom of owning military grade hardware not all weapons.



That's backwards thinking, you've been asked to explain. Can you do so or not? I don't need a heart string story about your line of work, either. Thanks in advance.

I am not interested in guns and the like, I simply told you what I remember what we were told in military and what we experienced, like I said could not care less about guns. I still stand that guns like ar150 and similar should not be allowed by civilians as it basically is a military grade weapon. I have never ever used the automatic setting but for training with blanks. Ok In military we are allowed to have 30bullets in the mag. But wasn't the shooter that used an ar150 using a mag with 30bullets, so you mean that it was a happen stance that he had that?

Like I said, I do not care for guns but I am ok with normal handguns for self-defence if people really do know how to keep it safe. But I do not agree that it is ok to walk around armed. The gun stays home, for protection at home.

Guns does not do anything for me, and I know that no civilian can handle them correctly if even the police in Usa does not seem to know how to handle them. 30-60 fired bullets when a suspect is apprehended means that they have no suitable nerves for the job and simply are trigger happy. Not even when Poland was a part of the Warszawa pact(part of soviet) did the police behave that way. A life in usa does not seem to matter that much and I blame the guns for it. It is just a pull of a trigger, it is so easy... My 2cent.

 

[squadops]

That's backwards thinking, you've been asked to explain. Can you do so or not? I don't need a heart string story about your line of work, either. Thanks in advance.

How do you consider our military, a bunch of imbeciles who blindly follow orders? You are insulting.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I am not interested in guns and the like, I simply told you what I remember what we were told in military and what we experienced, like I said could not care less about guns. I still stand that guns like ar150 and similar should not be allowed by civilians as it basically is a military grade weapon. I have never ever used the automatic setting but for training with blanks. Ok In military we are allowed to have 30bullets in the mag. But wasn't the shooter that used an ar150 using a mag with 30bullets, so you mean that it was a happen stance that he had that?

Like I said, I do not care for guns but I am ok with normal handguns for self-defence if people really do know how to keep it safe. But I do not agree that it is ok to walk around armed. The gun stays home, for protection at home.

Guns does not do anything for me, and I know that no civilian can handle them correctly if even the police in Usa does not seem to know how to handle them. 30-60 fired bullets when a suspect is apprehended means that they have no suitable nerves for the job and simply are trigger happy. Not even when Poland was a part of the Warszawa pact(part of soviet) did the police behave that way. A life in usa does not seem to matter that much and I blame the guns for it. It is just a pull of a trigger, it is so easy... My 2cent.

Then why make comments on them when you have no idea what you're talking about and with each passing comment make more incorrect statements. What's an AR150...

So a person shouldn't be able to defend themselves outside the home? Seems silly, as if your suggestion is only violence has a chance of occurring at the home. No civilian can handle them? Says who, you? I handle my weapons just fine, I keep them locked up and in a safe location, I review safety measures when cleaning and handling my firearms and use them with respect for myself and others around me. Never had a problem in the 15 years I've owned weapons.

Where are you getting this crap, just please stop...I don't even know what to say at this point, it's so inane I'm getting a headache just from the chore of trying to dissect what you're thought process is.

How do you consider our military, a bunch of imbeciles who blindly follow orders? You are insulting.

Eh, I think the insulting one is you. I didn't say anything of the sort, respond to the posts not the user. Not only do you not answer the question you let your emotions run rampant, about a tone that not I nor others (@R1600) used.

 

[squadops]

I meant insulting to our military. I have answered the question more than once.

Our military carries out very tough decisions every day, they know what they are doing and why they are doing it. The fact that some of you think they are nothing more than stupid kids blindly following orders is insulting. Support them or do not, there is no 1/2 way, keep trying to say I have not made my point.

I have more than once

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I meant insulting to our military. I have answered the question more than once.

Our military carries out very tough decisions every day, they know what they are doing and why they are doing it. The fact that some of you think they are nothing more than stupid kids blindly following orders is insulting. Support them or do not, there is no 1/2 way, keep trying to say I have not made my point.

I have more than once

No you really haven't you've given backward logic and don't make any attempts to understand how people can disagree with a war, while still respecting the fact that service members have a job to uphold. Despite even them not agreeing to why they're there.

Uh, a limited group of people that never see the front lines know why they're doing it and then tell it to those fighting from that point. But the service members don't have a choice cause they took an oath and signed a contract of service. No one once said they were stupid kids, and I implore you to find that quote from any of us. What's insulting is your continued asinine rhetoric and getting puffed up over words you made up in your own mind.

No one claimed half way either.

 

[squadops]

Backwards eh? not even close to that, how can you not see that supporting our troops means supporting what they do? Mind boggling it is. It's like saying you love the bank robber until he robs the bank

Get it straight, there is nothing confusing about it. Now if you'd rather sit around and sing kumbaya, that is fine too. Who likes war? No one, that is who.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Backwards eh? not even close to that, how can you not see that supporting our troops means supporting what they do? Mind boggling it is. It's like saying you love the bank robber until he robs the bank

Get it straight, there is nothing confusing about it.

Troops do many things, but one thing they don't do is make a decision on where they're deployed, that doesn't make them bad people. They signed up for a job and there are times this nations politicians make foreign policy decisions at their expense. And then claim "for freedom", such blind nationalism is dangerous, I love my Country but I know when to call a spade a spade. Just cause you drape an American flag from a ship and then say mission accomplished doesn't mean crap to me when plenty more troops die after.

Also what's with the silly analogies today that really aren't in anyway a correlation to the debate. Considering the happenings of a war are far more complicated then what you compared it to...