- 4,464
- Azle, TX
- supermanfromazle
- SanjiHimura
[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016
- Thread starter Sanji Himura
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- 2,621
- Lincoln, NE
- huskeR_32
Um... I did. In the very post that you replied to.
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Ron Paul also didn't run for the Republican nomination this year, and therefore has no followers towards which he feels a responsibility to advise on what to do next.
Which makes this a poor comparison:
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This comparison is a more instructive one, as Cruz does have folks who voted for him in this election who may be looking to him for an answer on who he views as a good place for his supporters to turn.
While I do find Cruz's current non-endorsement to be somewhat laudable, it's hard to argue that those actions are to the benefit of the GOP. Bernie looked at the same choice and decided that Hillary, no matter his disagreements with her and her views, is a better outcome than Trump, and he lent his support accordingly. I'm still failing to see the problem with that.
- 2,621
- Lincoln, NE
- huskeR_32
Misinterpreted your question. My fault.
EDIT: Now that I understand your question, I can't say that I get your point. Why am I not allowed to question Johnny, AK, and Sanji on their opinions? In an opinion forum, no less?
They've done a little more than "(comment) on the very real disillusionment that followed," as you put it. They stated, in no uncertain terms, that Bernie's actions represented a "betrayal" of what he stands for. I find that to be hyperbolic and ill-informed, so I asked for clarification.
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- 4,464
- Azle, TX
- supermanfromazle
- SanjiHimura
Latest polling:
According to a CNN/ORC poll:
- Donald Trump leads Hillary Clinton, 48 percent-45 percent.
- Trump leads Clinton, 44 percent-39 percent. Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party candidate Jill Stein trail both at 9 percent and 3 percent, respectively.
According to an LA Times/USC poll:
- Trump leads Clinton, 45 percent-41 percent.
According to a CBS News poll:
- Trump leads Clinton, 44 percent-43 percent.
- Trump leads Clinton, 40 percent-39 percent. Johnson trails both at 12 percent.
According to an Economist/YouGov poll:
- Clinton leads Trump, 47 percent-42 percent.
- Clinton leads Trump, 40 percent-38 percent. Johnson and Stein trail both at 5 percent and 3 percent, respectively.
So a major shift in favor of Trump after Clinton chose her running mate.
According to a CNN/ORC poll:
- Donald Trump leads Hillary Clinton, 48 percent-45 percent.
- Trump leads Clinton, 44 percent-39 percent. Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party candidate Jill Stein trail both at 9 percent and 3 percent, respectively.
According to an LA Times/USC poll:
- Trump leads Clinton, 45 percent-41 percent.
According to a CBS News poll:
- Trump leads Clinton, 44 percent-43 percent.
- Trump leads Clinton, 40 percent-39 percent. Johnson trails both at 12 percent.
According to an Economist/YouGov poll:
- Clinton leads Trump, 47 percent-42 percent.
- Clinton leads Trump, 40 percent-38 percent. Johnson and Stein trail both at 5 percent and 3 percent, respectively.
So a major shift in favor of Trump after Clinton chose her running mate.
- 2,621
- Lincoln, NE
- huskeR_32
What makes you think there's more to this shift beyond the predicted "convention bump?" Other than your post here, I haven't seen anybody attribute this to the tapping of Tim Kaine.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,109
- Mile High City
I'm not tired of this yet. Watching both parties drag themselves and each other through the mud is absolutely hilarious. I find it comforting that some folks are finally saying "enough" and going third party. I find it disheartening though how many people are still willing to actually cast a vote for one of these two.
Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State and former Senator, who stands a real chance of being immediately impeached, probably should have been indicted, actually who probably should be in jail for her loooong series of misdeeds is a mainstream candidate.
Donald Trump, the reality show guy with the real estate and the classless classy gold towers is a mainstream candidate.
Gary Johnson, ex-republican governor of New Mexico is a fringe un-electable candidate. Comeon people! He was a governor. He's by far the most reasonable person to vote for at this point. Forget his politics for a moment - the other two are absolutely mind boggling choices. There is someone running who isn't a main character in idiocracy.
- 2,621
- Lincoln, NE
- huskeR_32
What does that have to do with my question?
Of the four polls that Sanji mentioned, three of them don't mention Kaine at all in the write-ups of their results. The only one that does, CBS, says that the pick had a positive impact on Hillary's numbers. (In their poll, while she lost the lead she had on Trump, she actually gained a couple of points over the previous poll. Presumably some undecideds swung her way, though not as many as went the other.)
Leaves me really curious as to how Sanji arrived at the conclusion that the VP pick is to blame for this shift.
- 2,478
- Paris
- Milouse
- Milouse
Joey D
Premium
- 47,571
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
He shouldn't be required to endorse anyone, and with all the money his backers gave him, you'd think he would be able to do an independent run. Also it's not just a two party race, his views are similar to that of Jill Stein, he could have easily endorsed her and with his support behind him he could have given a 3rd party and nice bump.
- 2,621
- Lincoln, NE
- huskeR_32
Who said anything about him being required to endorse anyone? It's question of pragmatism.
The realist in him surely knows that running independently or endorsing Stein would both only serve to harm Clinton and benefit Trump.
He sees that there are only two feasible outcomes: Clinton or Trump. He's doing what he can to make sure the one he prefers is the one that happens.
mister dog
(Banned)
- 8,396
- Spain
- misterdog
- misterdog7
Read this quote just now:
- 2,478
- Paris
- Milouse
- Milouse
It makes as much sense in the other way!
Joey D
Premium
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- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
If that's what he truly believes then he really is a sellout and let down everyone who believed in him, donated time and money to him, and started their "revolution" for him.
Trump and Clinton are more or less the same person, anyone who's done any research on both candidates can see that. Sanders should know this and if he truly believed he was different he would have ran independently instead of sticking with the status quo...something he fought against. I respect Sanders for doing what he was doing, now I just think he's a run of the mill politician who's just as much of a sellout as any of them.
It's not the only way to do things, he can freely do what he likes and isn't held by the party he ran under for anything. Look at Gary Johnson, he ran as a Republican but doesn't support his party.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Only to the Hillary loyalist, to Trump blowhards it's just the "crazy guy" going back to his cave. To Sanders voters it's him going down still fighting the cause he created, if he had done that. It really is that cut and dry as to why many on both sides see this as a fold at the table. Now if this was 2008 perhaps and you had a nominee supporting a then Junior Senator after losing, who was actually closely aligned in thoughts I could see your point.
Because he was a rare rift in the political balance, that could have easily rallied his people to say no to it all, and instead he's saying "well yeah I don't like her, I don't like him even more so. Thus as the only saying goes, lesser of two evils". It's basically a fall back on the greatest cop out of the political system in this nation from a guy who people really saw hope in. I can understand why some of his people will not vote this time like @R1600Turbo and I commend them for it, cause they knew what they wanted and they're not changing because it isn't happening.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
He's not, which was the point I was trying to make a couple of weeks ago, when, it seemed to me at least, the option of supporting no one didn't seem to be on the table.
Pragmatism is simply code for "He has to pick one so make the most pragmatic choice". In other words, he has to support someone.
Which he doesn't. Pragmatism is also code for, "I would never vote for this person on principle, but the other choice is so evil I'm going to recommend her anyway". To me, his integrity is out the window at that point. This is the problem, in a nutshell, with the system. Integrity ends when the politicking begins. He would have done the system and his own causes a lot of good if he simply said, "I can't endorse either one because they both represent all that I abhor about the system, they are simply two sides of the same coin and one is worse than the other, but I cannot, in good conscience, tell you to vote for someone I would not vote for personally. Vote your conscience, do what you think is best, you may have to decide which is the lesser of two evils but the choice is yours to make" I can't see any reason why any significant number of Bernie supporters would vote for Trump under any circumstance anyway, so taking that kind of position would be unlikely to affect the outcome IMO. He could have then stood outside the process, alone on the high road, just him and his integrity, and pointed out all the good things he thought about Hillary and her positions, throw in a bad thing here or there just to keep it real, all the while shredding Trump and his positions just the same. Integrity intact, a voice of reason for the downtrodden, left wing 99%'ers. Cut, print.
I suspect I'd be very popular among Bernie Supporters as one of his advisors. I'm guessing that when he started calling Trump a bigot and racist, the crowd would turn in his favour and they didn't cheer, they continue booing and eventually chanted "We want Bernie". What I think they really mean is, "We want the old Bernie back that had integrity", but that makes for an awkward chant
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fumunaplz
(Banned)
- 132
- United States
It is a fold in my book. I do not like Bernie for what he stands for, or claimed to stand for, I was elated that he rallied the young. What must it feel like to be one of his betrayed followers now? I will tell you.
The kids will no longer give a rats arse about the system as he let them down so poorly to save his career. I look for a man of character much more than I look for a man that agrees with me to hold office, Bernie seems to be neither.
The kids will no longer give a rats arse about the system as he let them down so poorly to save his career. I look for a man of character much more than I look for a man that agrees with me to hold office, Bernie seems to be neither.
- 40,922
And I'm not sure I understand the point of you asking people who didn't support Bernie Sanders to begin with to explain why some people who did support him feel like Sanders reneged now that he is shacking up buddy buddy with Hilary. Regardless of how they phrased it, do you think those three are just making up the sentiment.
And, once again, that clarification should come from the people who supported Bernie who now have no interest in following through with his endorsement, or even voting at all. Why do those people exist with Bernie throwing in his hearty recommendation of the Clinton campaign? Because even short of the "we'll vote for Trump before we vote for Hilary" level of reactionary silliness that catches the media attention that also popped up when Hilary was knocked out in 2008, it's not hard at all to find people that supported Sanders who were disillusioned and uninterested in politics before he ran who are even moreso now that he ran, didn't make it and threw his weight behind "the establishment."
In fact, there's so little difficulty in doing so that you don't even have to leave this website to do it. There's one person on this board who was posting an awful lot in this forum when Bernie was still in the thick of it, but then washed his hands of the entire election immediately after Bernie made the announcement. You can start with him.
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- 2,478
- Paris
- Milouse
- Milouse
So many Trump supporters have a feigned compassionate opinion about Sanders supporters today...
Sanders did what he had to do, you play by the rule, or you don't, but not both ways on a given election (like Gary Johnson as reminded by Joey D).
And the fact that Trump supporters spend so much energy trying to convince that Clinton is as bad as their candidate says a lot about their confidence and the legacy of the Republican Primary. Speaking compassion, these are the kind of shoes i wouldn't like standing in right now.
Sanders did what he had to do, you play by the rule, or you don't, but not both ways on a given election (like Gary Johnson as reminded by Joey D).
And the fact that Trump supporters spend so much energy trying to convince that Clinton is as bad as their candidate says a lot about their confidence and the legacy of the Republican Primary. Speaking compassion, these are the kind of shoes i wouldn't like standing in right now.
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- Johnnypenso
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