[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Biggles]

Yes, I'm aware. I'm merely pointing out if you don't want jobs leaving the US or you complain about jobs leaving the US, you shouldn't be buying a car made anywhere other than one made on US soil.

Define "made". In reality, auto manufacturing is now a complex multi-faceted process. A car assembled in Canada may have a large percentage of parts made in the US ... & vice versa. "Japanese" & "European" cars are manufactured in the US & American car companies build in Europe.

Globalization is irreversible IMO. My hope is that over time it will increasingly benefit the masses & not just the global elites.

 

[Joey D]

Please tell me you don't shop at Walmart!
Well if you actually look at who your biggest trading partner is.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top1609yr.html

I'm trying to figure out what you're actually trying to prove here? I think you're trying to make me out to be one of these people who's super "BUY AMERICA OR ELSE THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!" kind of people.

I don't care where things are made, I support free trade among nations, I support businesses' rights to produce their goods where they see fit, and I support consumers who refuse to buy good that are not made in their respective country. It's your money, do what you want with it. I do think however it would make sense for US companies to build their products on US soil, it gives Americans jobs, which means they can spend money to buy other American made things. The government shouldn't force that though.

Does that clear it up?

And no I don't shop at Wal-Mart since I don't agree with their business practices, see look at me being all "free consumer".

Define "made". In reality, auto manufacturing is now a complex multi-faceted process. A car assembled in Canada may have a large percentage of parts made in the US ... & vice versa. "Japanese" & "European" cars are manufactured in the US & American car companies build in Europe.

Globalization is irreversible IMO. My hope is that over time it will increasingly benefit the masses & not just the global elites.

Made; verb: simple past tense and past participle of make.

Make; verb: form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.

I'm aware cars are built across the globe and probably most of the parts are cast in some factory in China anyways (a ton of stuff I pull of my Focus has Made in China on it).

 

[killerjimbag]

Define "made". In reality, auto manufacturing is now a complex multi-faceted process. A car assembled in Canada may have a large percentage of parts made in the US ... & vice versa. "Japanese" & "European" cars are manufactured in the US & American car companies build in Europe.

Globalization is irreversible IMO. My hope is that over time it will increasingly benefit the masses & not just the global elites.

Did you read the link I posted? You have a huge deficit with China. Why do you think Apple,HP, and a whole bunch of US and Canadian companies have moved production to Asia? Global elitists,yeah,Soros,Koch, and many others that don't give a flying 🤬
about employing Americans.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top1609yr.html

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@killerjimbag - You've been asked before to not double-post. Continuing to ignore reasonable moderator requests will result in infractions.

A political cartoons can say something strong and have a point. They are actually often better than speech in order to point contradictions, and not less legitimate.

I wouldn't say they tend to have a point: they tend to have a punchline. Which, I suppose, is the point.

Again, the political cartoons or memes are over-simplifying, for every one you find that you think is righteous and paints some sort of deep truth, there's at least as many for the other side. Like @McLaren said, this shouldn't devolve into a battle of images: use your own words.

You're a little slow; I think I deleted both those a few days ago. Anything else you want deleted? I'll do it.

I've never said I wanted anything deleted. I find it very strange that that's your response when any of your posts are proven incorrect or misleading though: immediately burying it. Not discussing.

If you really think I'm intentionally misleading and violating the AUP, I'd appreciate a warning, an infraction or a ban. Personal digs hurt worse.

No personal digs here. If you're referring to the critical thinking comment, it's true: immediately taking some click-bait title on board and sharing it as some sort of revelation, without looking into the full story, shows a lack of critical thinking. It happened quite a lot around here a few years back with the Rob Ford scandal.

Which, now that I think about it, is sort of funny. That whole thing was a source of seemingly endless jokes at Toronto's expense from the US media fascinated by our crack-smoking mayor. Oh, how the tables have turned.

Political campaigns are a partisan affair. How can you expect participants in the fray to be be 100% objective?? Foreigners certainly have their axe to grind in our election, and they're not shy about it. Are the minority of participants in this thread US persons?

I don't remember saying I had that expectation.

 

[killerjimbag]

I'm trying to figure out what you're actually trying to prove here? I think you're trying to make me out to be one of these people who's super "BUY AMERICA OR ELSE THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!" kind of people.

I don't care where things are made, I support free trade among nations, I support businesses' rights to produce their goods where they see fit, and I support consumers who refuse to buy good that are not made in their respective country. It's your money, do what you want with it. I do think however it would make sense for US companies to build their products on US soil, it gives Americans jobs, which means they can spend money to buy other American made things. The government should force that though.

Does that clear it up?

And no I don't shop at Wal-Mart since I don't agree with their business practices, see look at me being all "free consumer".



Made; verb: simple past tense and past participle of make.

Make; verb: form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.

I'm aware cars are built across the globe and probably most of the parts are cast in some factory in China anyways (a ton of stuff I pull of my Focus has Made in China on it).

Of course it makes sense to make things in America. Do you think big companies like Apple will make their phones in the States? Ha,ha. Its called share holders. Cha ching, Your Iphone would be $2000 if it was made here.You can't pollute in the States like you can in Asian countries. Which we know goes on daily. Labour is peanuts over there compared to here.

 

[Tornado]

Consumer electronics have nothing to with automobile manufacturing, which was the crux of Joey's point.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I'm guessing Nissan does as well.

Titan, NV vans (Titan based), Frontier, Murano, Altima, Maxima, Pathfinder, Leaf, and Rogue. I may be forgetting one or two.

 

[Milouse]

I wouldn't say they tend to have a point: they tend to have a punchline. Which, I suppose, is the point.
Again, the political cartoons or memes are over-simplifying, for every one you find that you think is righteous and paints some sort of deep truth, there's at least as many for the other side.

Well, by definition, Political Cartoons that have a point... have a point, and i see little reason to ban a particular way to expose a point. Unless their quantity discomfort reading.
Agree with memes and other political cartoons, though.

 

[ryzno]

And chance are your car factories moved to either Mexico or Canada.

Both. And now, Kia is the only factory now. But they are very new to GA.

Yes, I'm aware. I'm merely pointing out if you don't want jobs leaving the US or you complain about jobs leaving the US, you shouldn't be buying a car made anywhere other than one made on US soil.

For the record, I've never bought a new vehicle. And both are 20+ years old, American bulit, with some out of country parts.( 91' Honda from Wisconsin, 96' Ford E-250 from Illinois)
I do plan on buying a new work van, even asked around here for opinions, but there really is no choice of truly buying American made anymore. Though as I just said, not everything is made here. And I completely understand that.
Regardless, we can assemble them ourselves, like we used too.

Unfortunately I see this all the time. But say if I mention that the Nissan Titan for example is manufactured in the US, I always get the excuse that "the money still goes back to Japan" while they completely ignore the fact that it's still employing thousands of US workers and feeding their families.

He said it better than I can.

 

[killerjimbag]

Consumer electronics have nothing to with automobile manufacturing, which was the crux of Joey's point.

Who's worth more money? Apple, Ford,or GM.
Automobile manufacturing has been going on between Canad and the US since the 30's. Perhaps we should shut the Welland canal down. Or just tax the hell out of Americans that want access to it. Canada is your largest trading partner and trade is pretty much equal. It would be foolish if not down right stupid not to trade with Canada. Toyota manufactures in the US and Canada. They make the cars in both countries to get around import tariffs as well as Honda,Nissan,etc.They are shifting production of Corolla's to Mexico in 2018. They have made them in Cambridge for 35 years. It's no different than GM,Ford or Fiat/Chrysler. Mexico offers cheap Labour, its the same as Apple having production in China.Clinton signed the NAFTA agreement and the US and Canada have suffered since.So telling GM,Ford or whomever to make their cars here is the same as telling Apple to make their products here.

 

[ryzno]

So telling GM,Ford or whomever to make their cars here is the same as telling Apple to make their products here.

They should make them here. With the $15 minimum wage crap, and wanting to avoid US tax laws we're going to be screwed one day, then we're going to have to depend on the Gov, just like they want now! If we had the economy we had, we might actually be able to afford stuff and finally tell wifey, hey boo! take a break! I got it covered. My wife works, but as any she will tell you, she'd rather be at home...

 

[killerjimbag]

They should make them here. With the $15 minimum wage crap, and wanting to avoid US tax laws we're going to be screwed one day, then we're going to have to depend on the Gov, just like they want now! If we had the economy we had, we might actually be able to afford stuff and finally tell wifey, hey boo! take a break! I got it covered. My wife works, but as any she will tell you, she'd rather be at home...

There are 2 people to blame for NAFTA.
Bill Clinton and Brian Mulroney. US and Canadian workers have suffered since.
I know. My mother never worked a day in her life. Not going to happen now. The rich get richer Donald/Hillary and us stiffs pay the taxes. Pretty funny isn't it.

 

[ryzno]

There are 2 people to blame for NAFTA.
Bill Clinton and Brian Mulroney. US and Canadian workers have suffered since.
I know. My mother never worked a day in her life. Not going to happen now. The rich get richer Donald/Hillary and us stiffs pay the taxes. Pretty funny isn't it.

Exactly my point, we don't need another Clinton screwing things up worse than they are! I have no idea if Trump can do what he promises, but I'd rather take that chance than suffer more. I'm classified as self employed, I get taxed as a small business. I work for and get paid by a company. But to avoid taxes they hire contractors, which I am. Sadly I'm not as fortune as others, I struggle to keep my equipment running.
I'm not going to continue to rant but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel everyone else see's under this system.

 

[Biggles]

Did you read the link I posted? You have a huge deficit with China. Why do you think Apple,HP, and a whole bunch of US and Canadian companies have moved production to Asia? Global elitists,yeah,Soros,Koch, and many others that don't give a flying 🤬
about employing Americans.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top1609yr.html

Not sure what point you're making here (& I'm Canadian). Your link doesn't work for me.

I'm aware cars are built across the globe and probably most of the parts are cast in some factory in China anyways (a ton of stuff I pull of my Focus has Made in China on it).

It's not just that cars are built across the globe, it's that different parts of cars are manufactured in different parts of the world & then assembled in different countries. The largest automobile parts manufacturer in NA is a Canadian company Magna International - so it's not all about China. At the same time, American manufactured parts will find their way into many cars assembled in Canada. The point is, it's no longer possible to clearly differentiate American-made" & "Foreign-made".

I think those days are gone & Trump pretending that he can bring back jobs that went overseas years ago ... it's not going to happen. Like so much of what Trump says - it's just empty promises.

 

[killerjimbag]

Not sure what point you're making here (& I'm Canadian). Your link doesn't work for me.



It's not just that cars are built across the globe, it's that different parts of cars are manufactured in different parts of the world & then assembled in different countries. The largest automobile parts manufacturer in NA is a Canadian company Magna International - so it's not all about China. At the same time, American manufactured parts will find their way into many cars assembled in Canada. The point is, it's no longer possible to clearly differentiate American-made" & "Foreign-made".

I think those days are gone & Trump pretending that he can bring back jobs that went overseas years ago ... it's not going to happen. Like so much of what Trump says - it's just empty promises.

Link works for me? Yes Magna and Linimar are the 2 largest and are both Canadian companies.Linimar is Headquartered in my home town. Yes cars are now globalized. It's cheaper to manufacture in China and Asia. That's why we import more from there and usually run an import deficit. Big companies make more for rich investors and we get screwed.

 

[Joey D]

Exactly my point, we don't need another Clinton screwing things up worse than they are! I have no idea if Trump can do what he promises, but I'd rather take that chance than suffer more. I'm classified as self employed, I get taxed as a small business. I work for and get paid by a company. But to avoid taxes they hire contractors, which I am. Sadly I'm not as fortune as others, I struggle to keep my equipment running.
I'm not going to continue to rant but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel everyone else see's under this system.

Trump can't do what he promises because chances are the Republicans aren't going to go for taxing any kind of business. That would be a death sentence for their political career. The only way to bring jobs back here would be to make it so it doesn't make financial sense to produce the goods in another country, and since it's going to be nearly impossible to do that without taxing the hell out of imported products, I can't see it happening. Plus doing that would probably end up crippling the economy.

It's not just that cars are built across the globe, it's that different parts of cars are manufactured in different parts of the world & then assembled in different countries. The largest automobile parts manufacturer in NA is a Canadian company Magna International - so it's not all about China. At the same time, American manufactured parts will find their way into many cars assembled in Canada. The point is, it's no longer possible to clearly differentiate American-made" & "Foreign-made".

Once again, I'm aware of how it all works. And you can quantify how American (or other country) a vehicle is, they release a list every year of the "Most American Vehicle" that shows how much of the content of that vehicle is made in the US.

Big companies make more for rich investors and we get screwed.

Anyone can invest, it doesn't even take that much money to do so. Take $100 an open up an investment account in a company you believe in, then you too can start screwing others as a fat cat investor! But really, you don't need to be rich to generate wealth from a company. In fact it's super easy to do and I manage my account while drinking my morning coffee at work.

Even if your employer doesn't offer any kind of retirement package, you can divert a couple of percent from your paycheck to something like a Fidelity account.

 

[killerjimbag]

Trump can't do what he promises because chances are the Republicans aren't going to go for taxing any kind of business. That would be a death sentence for their political career. The only way to bring jobs back here would be to make it so it doesn't make financial sense to produce the goods in another country, and since it's going to be nearly impossible to do that without taxing the hell out of imported products, I can't see it happening. Plus doing that would probably end up crippling the economy.



Once again, I'm aware of how it all works. And you can quantify how American (or other country) a vehicle is, they release a list every year of the "Most American Vehicle" that shows how much of the content of that vehicle is made in the US.



Anyone can invest, it doesn't even take that much money to do so. Take $100 an open up an investment account in a company you believe in, then you too can start screwing others as a fat cat investor! But really, you don't need to be rich to generate wealth from a company. In fact it's super easy to do and I manage my account while drinking my morning coffee at work.

Even if your employer doesn't offer any kind of retirement package, you can divert a couple of percent from your paycheck to something like a Fidelity account.

I have investments. I have a pension plan. $100,yeah that will be huge in 35 years.
Remember the banking crisis. All those rich people that used hedge funds to basically crumble the economy? The average working stiffs lost everything. Homes jobs etc. Who bailed them out? Your hard earned tax dollars did.Goldman Sachs and other banks walked away Scott free.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Buzzfeed is reporting that there is a hub in Macedonia that generates pro-Tump news for ad revenue. It should be noted that most of these clickbait articles are exaggerations or outright plagiarism from fringe(Alex Jones) or Right-leaning (FOX) news sites. The Macedonians see a story elsewhere and write the most absurd title of their article that they can think of. These articles are shared on Facebook and trends world wide. Here are a few in the absurdity:

WorldPoliticus.com
TrumpVision365.com
USConservativeToday.com
DonaldTrumpNews.co
USADailyPolitics.com

 

[Scaff]

You're a little slow; I think I deleted both those a few days ago. Anything else you want deleted? I'll do it. One the charms of this forum has been that it tolerates Daily Mail and other substandard sources. If you want me live to a higher standard because of my higher character and ability, I'll try to live up to your expectation. If you really think I'm intentionally misleading and violating the AUP, I'd appreciate a warning, an infraction or a ban. Personal digs hurt worse.

Political campaigns are a partisan affair. How can you expect participants in the fray to be be 100% objective?? Foreigners certainly have their axe to grind in our election, and they're not shy about it. Are the minority of participants in this thread US persons?

I Ithink you will find that the Daily Mail I'd regularly derided as a source.

You also seem to be mistaking having a partisan view as some form of excuse to remove all form of critical reasoning and for basic fact checking to be bypassed.

It's also spectacularly hypocritical to take issue with non Americans posting here, given your ongoing involvement in threads and discussions that focus on Europe and the EU. Plain fact is you do not get to decide who posts in what thread.

The only question I really have about this is just how quickly they finished their investigation. CNN had said that officials were unlikely to finish the investigation before the election only a week ago, with 650,000 new e-mails revealed.

It appears that the FBI are saying that the vast bulk of the emails were duplicates of ones they already had, which would be both quick and easy to weed out, certainly within the timescale involved (I've de-duped larger data-sets on my own in less time, with less resource).

https://www.wired.com/2016/11/yes-donald-trump-fbi-can-vet-650000-emails-eight-days/

That does however raise the question of why that wasn't done before announcing this in the first place?

 

[TeamEdge702]

After seeing the DNC2leak i'm glad I wrote Bernie in.

 

[Dotini]

It appears that the FBI are saying that the vast bulk of the emails were duplicates of ones they already had, which would be both quick and easy to weed out, certainly within the timescale involved (I've de-duped larger data-sets on my own in less time, with less resource).

That does however raise the question of why that wasn't done before announcing this in the first place?

I'm working on a new theory of the Weiner/Abedin case. It may answer your question and explain Comey's recent (in)actions rather well, I think.

Junior Detective Dotini's theory:

Do you recall J Edgar Hoover? Of course not, but have you read about him?

Perhaps Comey is emulating him. To indict now would only ensure a pardon for Clinton. To indict after she moves into the Oval office would only result in impeachment and constitutional crisis.

Perhaps Comey is building a dossier with which he can control Clinton and her every move for the rest of her term(s) or natural life - whichever is longer.

Please help me elaborate - or demolish - this theory.

 

[Biggles]

Please help me ... demolish - this theory.

OK. Comey has been FBI director for barely 3 years. J Edgar Hoover was FBI director for 48 years. Let's start there ...

 

[CodeRedR51]

Please help me elaborate - or demolish - this theory.

I'd say he doesn't want to end up in a coffin.

 

[killerjimbag]

OK. Comey has been FBI director for barely 3 years. J Edgar Hoover was FBI director for 48 years. Let's start there ...

He has a 10 year term,which basically means he's there for the rest of her life,or term.

 

[Scaff]

I'm working on a new theory of the Weiner/Abedin case. It may answer your question and explain Comey's recent (in)actions rather well, I think.

Junior Detective Dotini's theory:

Do you recall J Edgar Hoover? Of course not, but have you read about him?

Perhaps Comey is emulating him. To indict now would only ensure a pardon for Clinton. To indict after she moves into the Oval office would only result in impeachment and constitutional crisis.

Perhaps Comey is building a dossier with which he can control Clinton and her every move for the rest of her term(s) or natural life - whichever is longer.

Please help me elaborate - or demolish - this theory.

That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[Biggles]

He has a 10 year term,which basically means he's there for the rest of her life,or term.

He can be fired. If the Democrats win control of the senate, there's a strong possibility of that happening based on his actions over the last few weeks ... or not, depending on how he plays his cards. The point is Hoover had decades to consolidate his power at the FBI & collect dirt on politicians - Comey clearly isn't in a comparable position.

 

[Dotini]

That does however raise the question of why that wasn't done before announcing this in the first place?

We may speculate that Comey wanted Hillary to twist in the wind for as long as he could keep a smirk off his face.

ZACH GIBSON/BLOOMBERG/GETTY IMAGES

https://www.wired.com/2016/11/yes-donald-trump-fbi-can-vet-650000-emails-eight-days/
The real question, wrote cybersecurity consultant Rob Graham in his blog, isn’t how the FBI managed to conclude its investigation in eight days. It’s how it managed to take so long. “

 

[Sanji Himura]

That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

He does bring up a rather interesting point, though. That is Abedin wasn't cleared in the new investigation, and there are plenty of rumors floating around that Comey has her like shooting a fish in a barrel for Perjury and obstruction. Weiner will get immunity over the emails, let's not make this anymore murky over his fate, he will flip on Abedin, who should, if she wants to save her own skin, flip on Clinton.

There is no sane way that he can get this done by tomorrow, there wasn't enough time. He had no choice but to clear Clinton due to lack of evidence and DOJ pressure. However, if we get a President Hillary Clinton Wednesday morning, then it is impeachment proceedings if the Republicans can hold Congress. I know that they can hold the House, the question becomes can they expand their majority in the Senate? The answer is a clear no because of the Supreme Court issue.

 

[Dotini]

He does bring up a rather interesting point, though. That is Abedin wasn't cleared in the new investigation, and there are plenty of rumors floating around that Comey has her like shooting a fish in a barrel for Perjury and obstruction. Weiner will get immunity over the emails, let's not make this anymore murky over his fate, he will flip on Abedin, who should, if she wants to save her own skin, flip on Clinton.

There is no sane way that he can get this done by tomorrow, there wasn't enough time. He had no choice but to clear Clinton due to lack of evidence and DOJ pressure. However, if we get a President Hillary Clinton Wednesday morning, then it is impeachment proceedings if the Republicans can hold Congress. I know that they can hold the House, the question becomes can they expand their majority in the Senate? The answer is a clear no because of the Supreme Court issue.

Good points. And there is no way Comey would indict with Obama still sitting in office ready to pardon. He will patiently build his dossier.

But aside from the FBI/email server investigation, there is a looming congressional perjury charge over Benghazi, the IRS building a case to decertify the Clinton Foundation as a charity, and the 5 FBI field offices investigating the Clinton Foundation.

 

[Scaff]

He does bring up a rather interesting point, though. That is Abedin wasn't cleared in the new investigation, and there are plenty of rumors floating around that Comey has her like shooting a fish in a barrel for Perjury and obstruction. Weiner will get immunity over the emails, let's not make this anymore murky over his fate, he will flip on Abedin, who should, if she wants to save her own skin, flip on Clinton.

There is no sane way that he can get this done by tomorrow, there wasn't enough time. He had no choice but to clear Clinton due to lack of evidence and DOJ pressure. However, if we get a President Hillary Clinton Wednesday morning, then it is impeachment proceedings if the Republicans can hold Congress. I know that they can hold the House, the question becomes can they expand their majority in the Senate? The answer is a clear no because of the Supreme Court issue.

On the basis of evidence that currently doesn't seem to exist.

If it did then she would have been charged.

We may speculate that Comey wanted Hillary to twist in the wind for as long as he could keep a smirk off his face.

ZACH GIBSON/BLOOMBERG/GETTY IMAGES

https://www.wired.com/2016/11/yes-donald-trump-fbi-can-vet-650000-emails-eight-days/
The real question, wrote cybersecurity consultant Rob Graham in his blog, isn’t how the FBI managed to conclude its investigation in eight days. It’s how it managed to take so long. “

Or he could simply be incompetent.

Oh and I've already posted that link.