[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Imari]

I don't know any other real difference. But I know for a fact a difference is there.

How do you know? You seem to be resorting more and more to the explanation "that's just the way it is".

If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it. And if you don't understand it, how can you know if it's true?

 

[Dotini]

“The view from the Trump team is the intelligence world has become completely politicized,” “They all need to be slimmed down. The focus will be on restructuring the agencies and how they interact.”

http://www.wsj.com/articles/lawmake...umps-dismissal-of-u-s-intelligence-1483554450

The last president who wanted to slim down the CIA got his head blown off. The CIA has admitted it withheld evidence of the JFK assassination from from official congressional investigation. Today the US intelligence community consists of some 16+ organizations under a central Director of National Intelligence. DNI Clapper was supposed to have briefed Trump on what he knows, but has postponed the meeting.

 

[samurai8juice]

How do you know? You seem to be resorting more and more to the explanation "that's just the way it is".

If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it. And if you don't understand it, how can you know if it's true?

If I can't explain it, it doesn't mean I don't understand it. It just means that I can't explain it.

If you want an answer, why don't you actually seek out an answer for yourself through another means? I'm sure there's one out there.

Anyways the thing we've been discussing, you've already been given an answer. Multiple times. By 2 people. I don't know know what there's left to discuss.

 

[xyloscissor]

If I can't explain it, it doesn't mean I don't understand it. It just means that I can't explain it.

I'm not so sure that is true, it might be that you simply believe it which is good enough to state 👍 Humans are not vulcans and as such we rely on much more than some stated logic to run our lives. For what it is worth I do believe there should be a tangible product for a day's work no matter how fast the world is changing.

 

[Danoff]

For what it is worth I do believe there should be a tangible product for a day's work no matter how fast the world is changing.

Define tangible. My tax adviser just spent 30 minutes on the phone with me going over tax strategies for 2017. There's nothing from that that I can hold, poke, or eat, but it's work product.

 

[ryzno]

Define tangible. My tax adviser just spent 30 minutes on the phone with me going over tax strategies for 2017. There's nothing from that that I can hold, poke, or eat, but it's work product.

I'm curious how y'all are planning tax strategies for this year. If Trump does what he says he'll do, you can throw all that out the window.

Edit. I've already discussed buying a new work van for tax purposes and only other thing she said was to do a better job of keeping track of my mileage. Something that is currently hard to do, my odometer doesn't work... She said we have to see what Trump does before making drastic moves.

 

[GTsail]

***I don't think a successful and wealthy economy can be based simply on the provision of mutual services such as grooming fleas, manicures, house cleaning, income tax return preparation, the writing of poetry or acting in plays. These sorts of services are secondary, the icing on the cake.

Why can't a society prosper and advance based upon providing services?

Manufacturing products that people want is certainly a good thing, but just manufacturing products for the sake of producing more products is a useless endeavor (and IMO a poor use of a society's people and its natural resources).

If a society no longer wants VCR tapes, then the VCR tape factory should stop making them!!!

To extend on Danoff's comment in post # 9641:

***
Performing a service for someone frees up their time.
Fundamentally, all you have to do is create something of value to create wealth.***

Lets say there are three people who walk three miles to work every day (an hour walk each way). Two of these people write/blog/code for a living, so on most days they continue to write/work/type on their hand-held tablets while they walk to work each day.

However, on rainy days, the two writers open and hold their umbrellas, which makes it impossible to productively write on their tablets while they walk to work in the rain (they aren't very good typing one-handed). The third person isn't a writer and doesn't mind the rain so he doesn't even carry an umbrella.

One rainy day, the third person decides to offer a new service:💡 for a small fee$$$, he offers to hold an umbrella over the head of one of the writers so that writer can continue to write/blog/code even on rainy days!!!

Hasn't this new "umbrella service" advanced the society and made one of the writers more productive?

Maybe this writer can write an extra HBO episode of Game of Thrones, or compose a new song for Rihanna, or write some more software code for GT7?💡

Wouldn't this new "umbrella service" advance the society more than if the society asked the umbrella manufacturer to make a third umbrella (that doesn't seem to be wanted) for the third walker?

It seems to me that even services which might be considered "frosting" can still advance a society.

 

[Danoff]

I'm curious how y'all are planning tax strategies for this year. If Trump does what he says he'll do, you can throw all that out the window.

Edit. I've already discussed buying a new work van for tax purposes and only other thing she said was to do a better job of keeping track of my mileage. Something that is currently hard to do, my odometer doesn't work... She said we have to see what Trump does before making drastic moves.

The tax code is always a moving target. Maybe now more than usual, but every year is a new year with the potential for law changes. All I can do is respond to the existing laws until I see what changes are coming.

 

[ryzno]

Why can't a society prosper and advance based upon providing services?

Manufacturing products that people want is certainly a good thing, but just manufacturing products for the sake of producing more products is a useless endeavor (and IMO a poor use of a society's people and its natural resources).

If a society no longer wants VCR tapes, then the VCR tape factory should stop making them!!!

To extend on Danoff's comment in post # 9641:


Lets say there are three people who walk three miles to work every day (an hour walk each way). Two of these people write/blog/code for a living, so on most days they continue to write/work/type on their hand-held tablets while they walk to work each day.

However, on rainy days, the two writers open and hold their umbrellas, which makes it impossible to productively write on their tablets while they walk to work in the rain (they aren't very good typing one-handed). The third person isn't a writer and doesn't mind the rain so he doesn't even carry an umbrella.

One rainy day, the third person decides to offer a new service:💡 for a small fee$$$, he offers to hold an umbrella over the head of one of the writers so that writer can continue to write/blog/code even on rainy days!!!

Hasn't this new "umbrella service" advanced the society and made one of the writers more productive?

Maybe this writer can write an extra HBO episode of Game of Thrones, or compose a new song for Rihanna, or write some more software code for GT7?💡

Wouldn't this new "umbrella service" advance the society more than if the society asked the umbrella manufacturer to make a third umbrella (that doesn't seem to be wanted) for the third walker?

It seems to me that even services which might be considered "frosting" can still advance a society.

Why not create an umbrealla you don't need to hold? Then many people can earn/create wealth.

 

[xyloscissor]

I don't think there is a question that those sorts of things advance society, did someone say we should stop all of that?

 

[ryzno]

I don't think there is a question that those sorts of things advance society, did someone say we should stop all of that?

Having a servant walk around holding your umbrella is not advancing society. If anything it's a step backwards. Heres an idea. Pay me when you hit it big

Take a small drone, install a umbrella assembly, program the drone to follow the smart device we all carry around... Hell the coder could even help you, now 2 people can get rich.

Edit: From what I can tell from their posts, we should all do sevices and let "skilled laborers" in 3rd world country make everything for us.

 

[xyloscissor]

I will pay you well

It does advance things, something as simple as that, if the person has no other way to make a living and I pay them well enough, maybe they can educate there children for example.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Having a servant walk around holding your umbrella is not advancing society. If anything it's a step backwards. Heres an idea. Pay me when you hit it big

Take a small drone, install a umbrella assembly, program the drone to follow the smart device we all carry around... Hell the coder could even help you, now 2 people can get rich.

Sounds really convoluted, especially considering how much weight the drown would have to hold, so you'd have to design a light weight umbrella to be carried that could sustain when heavy rain or hail hits. Then you'd have to make a controller and system that could fly and maintain said flight at your slow walking speed...talk about a waste of engineering.

 

[ryzno]

I will pay you well

It does advance things, something as simple as that, if the person has no other way to make a living and I pay them well enough, maybe they can educate there children for example.

I see where you're going.

Sounds really convoluted, especially considering how much weight the drown would have to hold, so you'd have to design a light weight umbrella to be carried that could sustain when heavy rain or hail hits. Then you'd have to make a controller and system that could fly and maintain said flight at your slow walking speed...talk about a waste of engineering.

Really? Amazon figured out how to carry packages that weigh more than an umbrella. Don't forget the fact we aer talking about "services" people don't want to do.
So what if it goes slow? I bet my idea would sell a lot. At least it won't blow up like a hoverboard...

 

[Imari]

If I can't explain it, it doesn't mean I don't understand it. It just means that I can't explain it.

If you want an answer, why don't you actually seek out an answer for yourself through another means? I'm sure there's one out there.

Well, because I'm here having a conversation with you. It's not my job to prove what you're claiming.

Anyways the thing we've been discussing, you've already been given an answer. Multiple times. By 2 people. I don't know know what there's left to discuss.

What, that wealth isn't really created at all and that it's a fiction related to the relative worth of a dollar? That the difference between manufacturing and services is at best marginal and probably non-existent and that your "definitions" of what a service is, what trade is and what export is are totally flawed?

I mean, you already admitted that part of what you'd said was wrong. I haven't seen anyone agreeing with you, everyone seems to have their own definitions of the divide between a good and a service. Yours is one of the least clear in the last page and a half.

But hey, I can see that you just want to check out in a way that lets you keep some pride without having to actually admit that maybe you don't know what you're talking about. Be my guest.

Go out with your head held high, just try to limit sticking your two cents in if you can't actually back it up. Remember, your opinion is worthless if you can't explain why you hold it.

Having a servant walk around holding your umbrella is not advancing society. If anything it's a step backwards. Heres an idea. Pay me when you hit it big

Take a small drone, install a umbrella assembly, program the drone to follow the smart device we all carry around... Hell the coder could even help you, now 2 people can get rich.

I don't think you get it.

Having two people cooperate to achieve a function that would be impossible for a single person is to society's benefit, even if one of those people is only providing service to allow the other person to do their work effectively.

For what it is worth I do believe there should be a tangible product for a day's work no matter how fast the world is changing.

I very disagree.

If I work designing products, there will very rarely be any tangible products from my work. At best a prototype. Someone else will take my work and do more work to turn it into something that can be produced and sold.

And yet my job would be one of the least likely to be automated or reduced, because research and design is very difficult to mechanise or farm out.

Danoff has also given an example, and there are many more like the aforementioned doctors that don't sell products but provide services that are critical to a well functioning society. I'd think carefully about how many things you can think of that are useful that do not involve physical goods changing hands. I'm guessing a lot, if you try.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Really? Amazon figured out how to carry packages that weigh more than an umbrella. Don't forget the fact we aer talking about "services" people don't want to do.
So what if it goes slow? I bet my idea would sell a lot. At least it won't blow up like a hoverboard...

I don't think you understand what i said at all, so let me explain again. Your example is silly, because one the sending packages of fair size to places isn't the same as carrying an umbrella at a constant walking pace, and at times a stand still. The umbrella would be easy to carry, but the speed at which it would be carried would be quite slow, so using something large like most drones seen now wouldn't work. Because they wouldn't be able to one uphold their own dry weight in flight while maintaining your pace. They could hover in place for you, but not walk along side. So ideally you'd want some thing light.

Then you have to have something that could recognize when you're walking and just standing in place, so it just doesn't keep going. Then you'd need it to recognize when obstacles are in the way, trees construction and so on. Some flying in the air and delivering packages and then your idea...are vastly different.

Anyways this doesn't really address the point that is clearly cornered from Danoff and Imari.

 

[polysmut]

Having a servant walk around holding your umbrella is not advancing society. If anything it's a step backwards.

If you're willing, I'd like to hear more about why you say that?

 

[Danoff]

What, that wealth isn't really created at all and that it's a fiction related to the relative worth of a dollar?

No no, wealth really is created. Explaining it in terms of what a fixed currency can buy is the easiest way to see the math work. At the beginning, 3 units of currency buys 3 units of production. In the end, 3 units of currency buys 4 units of production. Wealth being created is easy to see. If someone is able to counterfeit a 4th unit of currency and buys the 4th unit of production with it, that person is the beneficiary of the created wealth.

Forgetting the currency for a moment. Supposing I produce 3 units of corn, you produce 3 units of milk, and bob produces 3 units of wood, and these are things we all need to survive. Normally I trade a unit of corn for a unit of milk, and a unit of corn for a unit of wood. You do the same and so does bob. No currency.

Now supposing bob invents a wood chopping machine that enables him to produce 4 units of wood instead of 3. He goes about business as usual but pockets the extra unit of wood until he has 3. Then he takes a month off (wealth created) because he has 3 units of wood to spare.

Supposing he invests that month off (wealth) in producing something that would help me make corn and you make milk. He sells you and me these machines that enable the production of an extra unit of corn and milk in exchange for 3 free months of milk and corn after we get the machines.

Now he's producing 4/month, and we're producing 3/month for 3 months while we pay the extra 1/month to bob. Once our payment is completed, we all make 4 units/month. Our GDP grew by 33%, as did our wealth. We now own 33% more of the same goods.

 

[ryzno]

I get what y'all are saying. Do y'all not get my point?

 

[ryzno]

If you're willing, I'd like to hear more about why you say that?

I said that cause in their scenarios that would be the only thing that person does is carry an umbrella.

The rich have people to do that already and then some. The same person carrying the umbrella is usually their armed security. What are they to do for work when it's not raining if that is their only job? Get where I'm going? People already have these kind of jobs. So when someone loses their production job, what are they to do? You only need so many umbrella carriers... And besides, who has the money to pay for an umbrella carrier if they don't have a job? Is the wealth just going to come out of thin air like in some of the scenarios above?

All their scenarios are like lab experiments expecting the perfect outcome.
They already have the answer in their mind. Cause by the book that is what should happen in their scenario. I'm looking at it from a realistic POV, not a by the book POV.

My point the whole time is, you need a production economy and a service economy. No country can get by with just one type. But I'm sure someone will disagree...

 

[Exorcet]

I said that cause in their scenarios that would be the only thing that person does is carry an umbrella.

The rich have people to do that already and then some. The same person carrying the umbrella is usually their armed security. What are they to do for work when it's not raining if that is their only job? Get where I'm going? People already have these kind of jobs. So when someone loses their production job, what are they to do? You only need so many umbrella carriers... And besides, who has the money to pay for an umbrella carrier if they don't have a job? Is the wealth just going to come out of thin air like in some of the scenarios above?

The whole umbrella thing served as a simple example, not necessarily something that would happen. It was create to illustrate a point. You can substitute umbrella holding with just about anything else.

As for what the person does when their service is not needed, that depends. Maybe umbrella holding provides all the income they need. If they do something like say research annual rainfall and set prices accordingly, they should make enough money to remain afloat.

You mention being unable to pay for a carrier if you don't have a job, but that's not true. Not having a job is not the same thing as not having money. If you save money as you work, then you will still have money even if your job vanishes.

 

[Dotini]

As for what the person does when their service is not needed, that depends. Maybe umbrella holding provides all the income they need.

Holding an umbrella is not meaningful work. Such a person would be miserable, use drugs, get obese and commit suicide. In order to be healthy and happy, people need a meaningful occupation.

 

[GTsail]

I said that cause in their scenarios that would be the only thing that person does is carry an umbrella.***

This isn't correct, in my umbrella example, I specifically said that all three people were walking to work:

*** three people who walk three miles to work every day***

Maybe the third walker is Danoff's tax advisor and he doesn't need to work on any tax returns while walking to work, but maybe he's not against earning a few extra dollars for holding an umbrella on rainy days.

***You only need so many umbrella carriers...

You are missing the point of my umbrella scenario. I'm not saying that everyone should become umbrella holders, I'm giving an example of a new service that adds to a society's productivity.

Do you acknowledge that this new umbrella service has advanced the productivity for one of the writer/walkers, who can now write an extra Game of Thrones episode? This productivity enhancement is the point of my example.

***My point the whole time is, you need a production economy and a service economy. No country can get by with just one type...

I'm not saying that a country should have no manufacturing companies, I'm saying that "new services" (even if they are just incremental frosting) can increase a society's productivity and can even create additional wealth for the society's citizens.

 

[Exorcet]

Holding an umbrella is not meaningful work. Such a person would be miserable, use drugs, get obese and commit suicide. In order to be healthy and happy, people need a meaningful occupation.

That's still missing the point a bit. The umbrella thing is a generic placeholder.

However, I would disagree even if we took the example literally. You don't need a meaningful occupation to be happy. A job can just be an enabler for you to do what you truly want to do. It does help tremendously if job and passion overlap though.

 

[GTsail]

Holding an umbrella is not meaningful work. Such a person would be miserable, use drugs, get obese and commit suicide.

Holding an umbrella is too much frosting and not enough cake???

Hmmm.....more fun with umbrellas:
My links modification:

There are three people who live in Bahrain and play golf every weekend. All three have the same even par golf handicap. It normally never rains in Bahrain, so the three golfers never ask their caddies to carry umbrellas. Next weekend is the end-of-season Club Championship for the local Bahrain golf course that the golfers frequently play at.

One of the golfers has a premonition that it will rain during the upcoming Tournament. So she asks her caddy if he could bring along an umbrella. The caddy says "sure" "for an extra payment of $100, I would gladly bring along an umbrella, and provide some "umbrella services" during the golf Tournament".

It rains for an entire day during the Tournament.

The golfer with the "umbrella services" shoots an even par 70 during the rain, while the other two golfers (who get soaked) shoot way over par, so the "dry" golfer wins the Club Tournament!!!!

After the Tournament, while sipping champagne at the 19th hole, the dry golfer gladly pays her caddy an extra $100 for the "umbrella services".

What do you think?
Next year, just in case, should all three golfers offer to pay an extra $100 to their caddies, or should they refrain from requesting such meaningless work from their caddies?

 

[xyloscissor]

But, a female golfer in Bahrain? *runs away and hides in shame.

 

[Dotini]

Holding an umbrella is too much frosting and not enough cake???

Yup, 'fraid so. Americans are living shorter lives for the first time in history. Over 90 million people are out of the workforce. They lead purposeless, miserable lives, doing dope and booze while killing time and themselves. The only way to have a healthy life is for it to have purpose and meaning. Otherwise, you get fat and die early.

 

[Imari]

Holding an umbrella is not meaningful work. Such a person would be miserable, use drugs, get obese and commit suicide. In order to be healthy and happy, people need a meaningful occupation.

Hold up. Your job doesn't have to be your whole life.

I know plenty of people who work essentially menial jobs but are perfectly happy because they use their job as a vehicle to allow them to do all the other things that they love in life. For some it may be a family, or a hobby, or whatever.

This idea that a career is who you are is very old fashioned.

Yup, 'fraid so. Americans are living shorter lives for the first time in history. Over 90 million people are out of the workforce. They lead purposeless, miserable lives, doing dope and booze while killing time and themselves. The only way to have a healthy life is for it to have purpose and meaning. Otherwise, you get fat and die early.

Those 90 million that includes those who are retired or in school? Which makes up more than half of them?

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015...llion-americans-who-arent-in-the-labor-force/

I think you're projecting. Some people may be as you describe. But no doubt some are happily retired spending their days doing the things they love after a long and fulfilling working career. And some are in education looking forward to making great contributions in the field of their choice.

Everyone is not as sad, miserable and full of drugs as the people you apparently see around you.

 

[BobK]

Yup, 'fraid so. Americans are living shorter lives for the first time in history. Over 90 million people are out of the workforce. They lead purposeless, miserable lives, doing dope and booze while killing time and themselves. The only way to have a healthy life is for it to have purpose and meaning. Otherwise, you get fat and die early.

I'm one of those who are out of the workforce, and have been for some time now. Arguably my life is purposeless, but I don't care. No dope, and over the past decade I've had perhaps two beers and two bottles of wine. The wine in all cases was with dinner. I actually weigh less than I did a while back. As for dying early, well that still remains to be seen. Hasn't happened yet.

As @Imari says, not all of us are sad, miserable and full of drugs. My observation would be that it's really a small percentage.

 

[Dotini]

I'm one of those who are out of the workforce, and have been for some time now. Arguably my life is purposeless, but I don't care. No dope, and over the past decade I've had perhaps two beers and two bottles of wine. The wine in all cases was with dinner. I actually weigh less than I did a while back. As for dying early, well that still remains to be seen. Hasn't happened yet.

As @Imari says, not all of us are sad, miserable and full of drugs. My observation would be that it's really a small percentage.

Okay, good for you. But why is the death rate going up??