Pope puts his papal foot in it - angers Muslim world

[Touring Mars]

Not so much ignorant - just incorrect

 

[ledhed]

lol and yet if anyone said anything about christianity youd take it more seriously

You think so ? You must not read the religion threads around here...you do know who the FSM is do you not ?


May his noodly appendage touch you lightly . All bow down before the true lord ..etc.

You MUST be kidding...

 

[Flerbizky]

lol and yet if anyone said anything about christianity youd take it more seriously

Not by a long shot...

 

[Dave A]

lol and yet if anyone said anything about christianity youd take it more seriously

When was the last time Christians set fire to emabsseys because a cartoon of Jesus was printed in the papers. It's not all Muslims though, and this is something you need to remember, it's just that the extremists and the people that support tham have the louder voice.

 

[Robin]

Im my personal opinion the pope should have just not mentioned anything about islam or the current related situations because it always going to dig a hole...... Its true that its the extremists are the ones for which all these problems stem..... but the pope could have just mentioned terrorism without bringing up religion!

 

[Famine]

The Pope's words were taken from a book, and it was clear he was quoting that book with a view to distancing Catholicism from it. But of course no-one listened to the rest of the speech.


And, in a follow-up, it's being reported that an Italian nun has been executed by gunmen in Somalia.

 

[Touring Mars]

Murdering nuns is not the best way to demonstrate that your religion shouldn't be equated to violence. How do you solve a problem like Sharia?

 

[Solid Lifters]

The Pope's words were taken from a book, and it was clear he was quoting that book with a view to distancing Catholicism from it. But of course no-one listened to the rest of the speech.


And, in a follow-up, it's being reported that an Italian nun has been executed by gunmen in Somalia.

So the Pope was accurate. Enough said.

 

[ledhed]

So were the gunmen in Somalia .

 

[Flame-returns]

Insensitive!

Anyway my opinion on this subject is that while Muslims are over-reacting the Pope did commit a crime of sheer idiocy, to call Islam a cause of evil and then claim that he was taken out of context is ridiculous. He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.

 

[Famine]

Anyway my opinion on this subject is that while Muslims are over-reacting the Pope did commit a crime of sheer idiocy, to call Islam a cause of evil and then claim that he was taken out of context is ridiculous.

Though true.

The bit people have taken offence to is directly attributable to a document 615 years old, and he was quoting it as a demonstration of how the Church used to be...

 

[ledhed]

Insensitive!

Anyway my opinion on this subject is that while Muslims are over-reacting the Pope did commit a crime of sheer idiocy, to call Islam a cause of evil and then claim that he was taken out of context is ridiculous. He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.

There you go ...you say the Pope did something idiotic and then quote / describe , something that did not happen .....so the Pope did something idiotic ???

What would that be ? expecting people to understand a simple sentance and a quote from a six hundred year source...and for nitwits to actually read what he said instead of trusting sources and rumors and gossip to decide what he said.

show me ..and the world where exactly the POPE called Islam evil .

go ahead back up what you posted .

Show where the idiocy is comming from .

 

[Flame-returns]

There you go ...you say the Pope did something idiotic and then quote / describe , something that did not happen .....so the Pope did something idiotic ???

What would that be ? expecting people to understand a simple sentance and a quote from a six hundred year source...and for nitwits to actually read what he said instead of trusting sources and rumors and gossip to decide what he said.

show me ..and the world where exactly the POPE called Islam evil .

go ahead back up what you posted .

Show where the idiocy is comming from .

'Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.'

I was accusing the Pope of idiocy not racism, all eyes are on him and because of this he should be very aware of the fact that his words may be taken out of his intended context.

My words were: 'He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.'

 

[Famine]

'Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.'

I was accusing the Pope of idiocy not racism, all eyes are on him and because of this he should be very aware of the fact that his words may be taken out of his intended context.

My words were: 'He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.'

Thing is...

The Pope was quoting a quote. If you only listen a part of any sentence then of course you can read a completely different meaning to the one intended.

It's like me saying:

"I can only condemn Ian Huntley when he wrote, in his confession, that "having sex with 10 year old girls is good"."

Read only the last bit and I'm a nonce. Read ALL of it and I'm not.


Here's what the Pope has been lambasted for saying:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

What does that look like? It looks like he's ripping "the Prophet" for being evil. Here's what the Pope actually said:

"I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on — perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara — by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between — as they were called — three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point — itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole — which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.

In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that sura 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry."."


And now it's completely different...

And the best bit of all? It was said in German - so once again, much of the reaction is from people who not only didn't witness the original but wouldn't have understood it even if they had (hardly anyone in the Jyllands-Posten debacle had actually seen the offensive cartoon they were demonstrating about).

It really is so very sad. No-one in the public eye can say anything at all for fear of being misinterpreted and then harangued by "religious" groups. You know Italy has upped its security level after threats from Islamic fundamentalist groups? From a speech supporting closer ties between Islam and Christianity and urging a less radicalised view of Islam...

 

[ledhed]

'Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.'

I was accusing the Pope of idiocy not racism, all eyes are on him and because of this he should be very aware of the fact that his words may be taken out of his intended context.

My words were: 'He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.'

They were not his words. They were the words of a 14th centurury Christiam Emperor and can you tell me what context they were used in ?

For example did he SAY " Today is not the time to have the attitude of this 14th century emporer reguarding Islam" using the quote as an example ? Is THAT STUPID in your mind ?

Or is it that you just quoted a news source that TOLD you what to think and still have not read the POPES comments in the context they were made in .
So are STILL unable to show how his comments were idiotic in any way ..because you simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE AND IN WHAT CONTEXT THEY WERE SAID .


I could put out a headline saying " Flame returns , calls POPE an Idiot " and a busload of Catholics may show up and start throwing holy water on you .
Let you try to explain yourself..." Thats not what I said I said .....( while holy water and the hum of praying nuns drows you out ) ......etc .
That doeesnt make my comment accurate or right ...just close enough to start a crapstorm ..

Why dont you take some time and actually look at the WHOLE speach and the reasons for it ..also known as " putting it in the proper context " .

 

[KSaiyu]

That's right, don't condemn Hezbollah in the recent war yet get p***ed at someone quoting from a book that's over a half millenia old....

 

[kennythebomb]

Islam is a religion. Being a muslim is a person who follows the religion of islam. You coule be black white yellow or green and be a muslim. To call muslims arabs is ignorant.

Okay, granted that it is not only Arabs making the big stink... but it is mostly them in my opinion. Muslims around the world protested the cartoons, but the strongest reactions tended to be in the UK and the middle east.

 

[Touring Mars]

... Pope puts other foot in it by offending the Jews (Article....)

[Homer] and now I'll pull my legs out with my face...[/Homer]

 

[kennythebomb]

Man, I would expect the Jews at least to be able to figure out context.... they should know what he (and Paul) meant by that in my opinion.

Does the entire world have some god-given right now to get pissy about anything involving their race or group?

If I was Pope I wouldn't want to apologize... I'd want to just issue another statement clearly outlining my intentions and what I'm really saying. But then some asshole will misconstrue that and accuse me of not being tolerant of chicken farmers on Pluto.

 

[kennythebomb]

This just in... Al Queda declares war on the Pope

I couldn't ask for a better headline...

 

[FoolKiller]

Insensitive!

Anyway my opinion on this subject is that while Muslims are over-reacting the Pope did commit a crime of sheer idiocy, to call Islam a cause of evil and then claim that he was taken out of context is ridiculous. He should be aware of context, his context is that he is the Pope - leader of the Catholic world - and as such picking fights even accidental ones with any religion is discouraged.

Um, how do you accidentally pick a fight? Is that like when I bump a guy in a bar and cause him to spill his beer and he decides that my apology and offer to buy him another is not enough so he attempts to beat me into a bloody pulp? Because, you kow, I didn't want to get into a fight but I apparently picked one by accidentally bumping the guy.

Actually, the guy picked the fight, he just misunderstood my accident as being intentionally agressive.


Also, let me show you how this out of context quoting thing works. I studied communications in college so this is natural for me.

Anyway my opinion on this subject is that...the Pope did commit a crime.

A crime!!! How can you accuse him of committing a crime just because he read from a centuries old text?

See how that works? That is what taking it out of context means. I removed teh rest of your post and only gave a partial sentence that makes you sound as if you are accusing the pope of something horrible. With the rest of your post it turns out that you are really just saying you think the pope acted stupidly and should have known better.

If public figures were forced to not say things that could be taken out of context or misquoted in such a way as to make them look bad then they couldn't talk at all.

 

[Touring Mars]

This just in... Al Queda declares war on the Pope

Shock, horror - Jihadists declare Holy War. They kind of have to, don't they? I mean, what is a jihadist supposed to do if not declare Holy War on someone? Atleast they are being specific... "worshippers of the cross" - yup, that narrows it down, guys. Hey, just be sure to ask first, otherwise you might accidentally get a couple of us 'atheists' too... Oops, I forgot, that makes me an infidel - thus a viable target for jihad too. Jeez, what is a boy to do? Turn Jihadist too? Then where would be the fun in that? There would be nobody to declare Holy War on then.... and then we'd all be screwed, because we'd all be Holy Warriors with nobody to go to Holy War against. Ah nuts, let's call the whole thing off...

 

[Delirious]

I know there are radical Islamists out there that may hold the view of killing the pope. I also know there are some mild-manner Muslims that only want peace.

But I don't think there are any real bare-bone Christians that would want to kill the pope (bare-bone that they hold the very basic same doctrines of main-stream Christianity).

I'm not catholic, and I think there is a big difference in catholicism and main-stream christianity (the teachings).

I just don't understand why there should be a "holy-war" over a quote that angers some extremists. I will never understand either side that are confronting the issue over this.

Just give me Jesus and I'll be happy 👍 (Keep it simple, keep it real)

 

[Swift]

I just don't understand why there should be a "holy-war" over a quote that angers some extremists. I will never understand either side that are confronting the issue over this.

Well, the only people that made it a side were muslims. So, I think that some of them should learn how to read/listen instead of taking things out of context.

 

[kennythebomb]

Shock, horror - Jihadists declare Holy War. They kind of have to, don't they? I mean, what is a jihadist supposed to do if not declare Holy War on someone? Atleast they are being specific... "worshippers of the cross" - yup, that narrows it down, guys. Hey, just be sure to ask first, otherwise you might accidentally get a couple of us 'atheists' too... Oops, I forgot, that makes me an infidel - thus a viable target for jihad too. Jeez, what is a boy to do? Turn Jihadist too? Then where would be the fun in that? There would be nobody to declare Holy War on then.... and then we'd all be screwed, because we'd all be Holy Warriors with nobody to go to Holy War against. Ah nuts, let's call the whole thing off...

Well in that case you could always install cameras and see if somebody forgot to pray the 5th time that day. Then you would have a fine excuse to go jihad on their entire household.

 

[kennythebomb]

Well, the only people that made it a side were muslims. So, I think that some of them should learn how to read/listen instead of taking things out of context.

They don't have access to the Pope's speech like we do... they are relying on the chief cleric or somebody similar to tell them what happened and what to think about it.

And like TM has hinted at... why would you want the full context, anyway? It is entirely morally just to take just a few words from a public figure in order to declare a war on him and his followers.

I'm not catholic, and I think there is a big difference in catholicism and main-stream christianity (the teachings).

Oh yes, certainly. I was talking with a catholic girl yesterday, who said she has no assurance of going to heaven or if she will be in purgatory. Sad, indeed.

 

[Swift]

They don't have access to the Pope's speech like we do... they are relying on the chief cleric or somebody similar to tell them what happened and what to think about it.

And like TM has hinted at... why would you want the full context, anyway? It is entirely morally just to take just a few words from a public figure in order to declare a war on him and his followers.

I don't think it's morally just. And the leaders that are spurring the muslims on to this "holy war" DO have access to the full speech. They are just using it to make the pope seem like more of an enemy then he really is. It's pure manipulation. No different then what Hitler did in the 1930's

 

[kennythebomb]

I don't think it's morally just. And the leaders that are spurring the muslims on to this "holy war" DO have access to the full speech. They are just using it to make the pope seem like more of an enemy then he really is. It's pure manipulation. No different then what Hitler did in the 1930's

Exactly my point, Swift. I bolded that phrase to show that I was sarcastic.

 

[Swift]

Exactly my point, Swift. I bolded that phrase to show that I was sarcastic.

My bad, I take bold as emphasizing a point. So, doh!

 

[FoolKiller]

My bad, I take bold as emphasizing a point. So, doh!

Wake up, Swift. It's well after lunch. Late night watching football? That was so heavily laden with sarcasm I even read it with a sarcastic voice in my head.