Porsche 991 Information Released

[GTP_Ingram]

I know that. But, before Porsche go making new cars, the only other option available is to raise the price to better reflect the market, as I have been saying. It's a miscalculation, or flat-out generosity, that Porsche decided that they were going to make only 30 cars and then price them such that they sold out before they ever went on sale (wat?). Now the museum connections got a hold of them and are treating them like investments, whereas rich driver-enthusiasts could have ponied up much more to buy one to actually drive and not treat like an appreciating investment that must be babied and handled with kid gloves at all times.

I don't really see why a quick sell-out time warrants a "(wat?)". Rare cars, the latest gadgets, even gig tickets - they all sell out quickly on a regular basis.

I used to work at a gig venue. Three acts while I worked there sold out 1,500+ tickets in around 30 minutes*. The promoters could have bumped up ticket prices, but that would have priced out many of the true fans, resulting in an abrupt drop-off in demand. The only reasonable solution would be to perform in a bigger venue (increasing the supply, in other words.)

...Which brings us back to the 911. Aren't speculators, safe in the knowledge that they will turn a quick profit on their investment, more able to throw around their money than car enthusiasts who want to own the car in the long term? Wouldn't raising the price further, as you suggest, mean that even fewer Porsche fans would be able to get their hands on one?

Raising the price would not work, and would have the added effect of inflating the rest of the market, too.


*Slash, Placebo and One Direction, for anyone interested

 

[Omnis]

Right, so what if many of the true fans weren't able to get tickets because they all got sold out? So they had to buy the tickets 2nd hand at, say, 200% markup. This happens all the time. They'll buy the tickets though, because they're true fans. Now what if the venue sold tickets at 150% price? This would be perhaps enough to price out some of the speculation, meaning the fans could now buy tickets that would've been sold out. The true fans that were going to buy the tickets anyway just got a 50% discount, and the original seller made 50% more.

This is not a difficult concept. What I'm suggesting that Porsche do is just what is happening anyway. Except, it would be better for Porsche to make the money instead of the speculators. Then, they could put that money towards manufacturing more cars.

 

[TheCracker]

I'm predicting we are 6-12 months away from a fairly large crash in this market. All it will take is for the hype to wear off *just* enough for people to think twice. When they do that, the tremendous overvaluations will come tumbling down as people will try to offload their 'investments' at whatever price sells, which will just create a feedback loop of massive depreciation. I think it's why Jerry Seinfeld just sold 17 cars in his collection. We've already begun to see auction prices taper off. A Carrera GT recently sold for $650,000, vastly less than its predicted sell price.

I think this all coincides with a larger housing(again) and tech-sector bubble that is on an eminent verge of collapsing prodigiously. The overvaluation of everything right now due to hype is simply, catastrophically, unsustainable. In no universe should Uber should be worth more than General Motors. Many tech companies pay their employees salaries much, much higher than the company's profit (if there is any) can support. Investments will stop flowing in, eventually. I doubt many of these companies have a business model adequate to survive without it. Of course the CEO's have made their billions already, they don't care.

I can't believe how collectively stupid western economic recklessness is. This city, especially, is in for one hell of a wild ride very soon. I've gotten a bit off topic...

I think the current boom we've seen in classic and modern/future classic cars is because of impending market crashes and the crash we experienced not so far back. They've become seen as a safe investment. Investors aren't seeing the profits you'd normally expect for traditional investment streams and are weary of losing like they did in 2008/2009. Cars are an investment that you can both enjoy and turn a profit from even in the short to medium term. Another crash may well see the current increases in values stagnate or even drop a touch, but they'll never 'crash' from their current values, that just doesn't happen in the classic car market.

 

[Omnis]

I hope the Porsche bubble bursts though just so we can call it The Great Renncession.

 

[homeforsummer]

Right, so what if many of the true fans weren't able to get tickets because they all got sold out? So they had to buy the tickets 2nd hand at, say, 200% markup. This happens all the time. They'll buy the tickets though, because they're true fans. Now what if the venue sold tickets at 150% price? This would be perhaps enough to price out some of the speculation, meaning the fans could now buy tickets that would've been sold out. The true fans that were going to buy the tickets anyway just got a 50% discount, and the original seller made 50% more.

And with this method, plenty of fans who could have got tickets - maybe by sitting on the site refreshing it until they came up for sale - wouldn't be able to afford them at the 150% markup, but could have been lucky enough to get them at the lower price regardless.

You seem to be under the illusion that the thing that defines a true Porsche fan is that they'd be happy to stump up an insane amount of money just so it doesn't go into speculators' pockets. When the reality is there is no set price at which someone becomes a Porsche fan and that simply setting a larger entry price would be practically no different to what's going on at the moment anyway: lots of people wouldn't be able to afford their dream car.

This is not a difficult concept.

Indeed it isn't, but I think you might not realise which side of that difficulty line you're on...

What I'm suggesting that Porsche do is just what is happening anyway. Except, it would be better for Porsche to make the money instead of the speculators. Then, they could put that money towards manufacturing more cars.

Porsche makes far more profit from Macans and Cayennes than it ever will by doubling the price of GT or R models just to scare off a few speculators, so doing so at the risk of alienating the brand's core, long-term customers when it'd make bugger-all difference to the bottom line is a ridiculous notion.

 

[Omnis]

You still don't understand that they're settled on just 30 units. That's just the way it is. I'm talking about reality here. They've already alienated their customers by having such a limited supply. Might as well let people pay for the privilege then.

And, anyway, of course the fans would be able to afford them at the markup. The tickets probably wouldn't sell out before they went on sale, but that was the whole idea. They can sell off the unsold blocks at an auctioned discount later on. Sports teams do this all the time. This is also Ticketmaster's whole business model.

 

[Stotty]

I think the current boom we've seen in classic and modern/future classic cars is because of impending market crashes and the crash we experienced not so far back. They've become seen as a safe investment. Investors aren't seeing the profits you'd normally expect for traditional investment streams and are weary of losing like they did in 2008/2009. Cars are an investment that you can both enjoy and turn a profit from even in the short to medium term. Another crash may well see the current increases in values stagnate or even drop a touch, but they'll never 'crash' from their current values, that just doesn't happen in the classic car market.

This 👍

When you have super low interest rates (both on borrowed money, and how little return you get on any deposits), people have to find a way for their money to earn something. Classic cars have become one of the routes.

And I don't see this changing anytime soon...

The Global economy is in a pretty tough place. There's virtually no growth or inflation, so the central banks will keep interest rates low to ensure consumer demand doesn't collapse causing another Global recession. And the outlook continues to be on the bear side - the US and European economies are just ticking along at best, so we're reliant on the developing economies (China/India/South America) to deliver Global growth, and they are starting to struggle.

 

[Omnis]

Subprime auto loans are probably going to take a huge dump in the future. Not sure how much that affects the classics market though.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Facelifted GT3 spy shots

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1102278_2017-porsche-911-gt3-spy-shots

 

[RCKakashi14]

Purists will definitely rest easy from the fact that it isn't turbocharged. I see no air intakes there.

And hopefully Porsche will make amends on this one by adding a manual option. The 911R was a good start.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm talking about reality here.

You aren't. Your solution is equally as hypothetical as mine, as Porsche won't simply push the price up to an unrealistic level to start with. The only difference between our hypothetical solutions is that mine isn't ridiculous and would actually solve the current problem.

 

[Clark]

Do you guys thinks there should be a tax if you sell a car a certain percent of amount over what you paid for it? These speculators who buy and then sell immediately are making tax free profits are they not?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Then, they could put that money towards manufacturing more cars.

While I agree and see what you're saying on the portion of how speculators are making a potential killing in this market, let's not forget so are Porsche. With each speculation they have people clamoring to buy these cars before they go on sale as you put it. So Porsche aren't in the red by any means, and they don't need to put more money into manufacturing cars. Porsche have long said that they build the amount of cars they damn well please (for lack of betting phrasing on their attitude) and don't build the amount the public thinks they should.

So in reality the true bad guy is Porsche here and the speculators are just the annoying powerful henchmen that we'd all like to see come to an end before the second act.

 

[Omnis]

You aren't. Your solution is equally as hypothetical as mine, as Porsche won't simply push the price up to an unrealistic level to start with. The only difference between our hypothetical solutions is that mine isn't ridiculous and would actually solve the current problem.

I'm not suggesting an unrealistic price increase. I'm suggesting an economic one. The part where I said half a million dollars was just hyperbole to illustrate my point. I don't know what the market is like for 30 limited cars. But it's certainly willing to support a higher price if they all sold out before they were even made.

Anyway, yeah, that "we'll do whatever we want" mentality that Porsche has is exactly why they have such a driven-by-dicks image. Volles Spektrum - Volle Schwanzfahrt

Do you guys thinks there should be a tax

No.

 

[Stotty]

Do you guys thinks there should be a tax if you sell a car a certain percent of amount over what you paid for it? These speculators who buy and then sell immediately are making tax free profits are they not?

In the UK, you pay a tax on the profit if you sell a house you own (that's not your primary residence) for more than you paid for it (less an allowance of c.£11k).

Would be difficult to implement on cars though.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

In the UK, you pay a tax on the profit if you sell a house you own (that's not your primary residence) for more than you paid for it (less an allowance of c.£11k).

Would be difficult to implement on cars though.

Every car sale is supposed to be taxed, in the US, proportional to the transaction cost.

 

[Stotty]

Every car sale is supposed to be taxed, in the US, proportional to the transaction cost.

You pay tax on new car sales in the UK (20%), but not on private 2nd hand sales.

So as an individual, I could buy a 991R for £145k, then immediately flip it for say, £400k, and there would be no tax liability.

If I did that with a house, or shares, I'd have to pay tax on anything over £11k @ 28%.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You pay tax on new car sales in the UK (20%), but not on private 2nd hand sales.

So as an individual, I could buy a 991R for £145k, then immediately flip it for say, £400k, and there would be no tax liability.

If I did that with a house, or shares, I'd have to pay tax on anything over £11k @ 28%.

I'm surprised that England doesn't tax used car sales. Seems like the UK government has found a way to tax absolutely everything.

 

[Darla Starch]

I'm surprised that England doesn't tax used car sales. Seems like the UK government has found a way to tax absolutely everything.

...so, Eastern Maryland?

 

[Omnis]

http://fee.org/articles/thank-goodness-for-price-gougers/

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yeah but nobody buys milk for investment. Aside from me.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You pay tax on new car sales in the UK (20%), but not on private 2nd hand sales.

So as an individual, I could buy a 991R for £145k, then immediately flip it for say, £400k, and there would be no tax liability.

If I did that with a house, or shares, I'd have to pay tax on anything over £11k @ 28%.

Correct, CGT doesn't apply to "wasting assets" or chattels. I think the threshold is now about £6k though.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm surprised that England doesn't tax used car sales. Seems like the UK government has found a way to tax absolutely everything.

We do, if you buy them from a dealer (VAT). If you're buying privately, you don't. I suspect because it'd be virtually impossible to track every car that changed hands.

 

[Tornado]

Couldn't they just assess the tax when you go to register it? That's what they do here.

 

[homeforsummer]

Couldn't they just assess the tax when you go to register it? That's what they do here.

It'd depend how honest someone was about what they'd bought it for. Or how complete the paperwork was between the two parties - I always print out a bill of sale for myself and whoever is selling/buying the car which both people then sign, but I suspect that's more completist than many.

Registration is a little different too, anyway. When you sell a car, the buyer gets a small section of the V5 (registration) document, and the seller sends off the rest of it to the DVLA (DMV) with the new owner's details on and confirmation from the seller they no longer own the car. Once the DVLA has confirmation of that, they send out a new V5 to the buyer, and a confirmation to the seller that the car has a new owner.

Nowhere on that document does it say how much you sold it for, and you don't have to go to a physical place to pick up new tags or whatever.

Edit: Frankly, we pay enough tax on cars anyway to have yet another for private sales...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

It'd depend how honest someone was about what they'd bought it for. Or how complete the paperwork was between the two parties - I always print out a bill of sale for myself and whoever is selling/buying the car which both people then sign, but I suspect that's more completist than many.

Registration is a little different too, anyway. When you sell a car, the buyer gets a small section of the V5 (registration) document, and the seller sends off the rest of it to the DVLA (DMV) with the new owner's details on and confirmation from the seller they no longer own the car. Once the DVLA has confirmation of that, they send out a new V5 to the buyer, and a confirmation to the seller that the car has a new owner.

Nowhere on that document does it say how much you sold it for, and you don't have to go to a physical place to pick up new tags or whatever.

Edit: Frankly, we pay enough tax on cars anyway to have yet another for private sales...

I distinctly remember being at the DMV (in TX) about 10 years ago, and a guy was trying to register a car he had just bought. She told him the tax amount was based on the fair market value and he said "whatever happened to a good deal?!"

So, unfortunately, they've thought of that.

 

[Crash]

When a car is sold second-hand in the US, there may be taxes due from both the buyer and the seller as well.

On the buyer's side, in states that collect sales tax, there will usually be an "Use Tax" at the rate that corresponds to the sales tax due when transferring the vehicle title to the new buyer. This tax is based on the self-reported amount (which is a value that you legally sign to be true), but if the reported amount is significantly under the market value determined by one of the car valuation firms (KBB, NADA, etc.) for that vehicle with that mileage and condition, then the state will collect tax based on "fair market value" instead of your self-reported sale value. In states without a sales tax or use tax, then there is no tax due from the buyer.

The seller will not owe any taxes if the vehicle sold for less than purchase price (i.e. the car depreciated). On the other hand, the seller will owe taxes in the form of income tax if the sale value is over the purchase price of the vehicle + work done to it. Profit made from an appreciated asset, whether it's a vehicle or artwork, or anything else, is considered income and legally must be reported to the IRS at year's end and taxes be paid on it. In a state that collects income tax, that amount will need to be reported to that state for income tax collection purposes as well.

We have paper Certificate of Title issued by each state that has the car's VIN and info and legal owner's info on it as well as a section for releasing legal interest (for a sale) and the sale price. That stuff must be filled out, and old title must be presented and surrendered for a new Certificate of Title to be issued in the buyer's name and information. Tax on the buyer is assessed at that point. This Title is a separate piece of paper from the vehicle registration certificate.

 

[Clark]

This advert description is tragic but sums the whole rare Porsche situation up.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...hysical-rhd-uk-car-16-miles/5427118?v=b#/home

 

[VXR]

Watch it via a camera link! Wow, see my investment grow, yet sit there going to waste. Criminal.

 

[kikie]

I have found my favourite 911.



Isn't this a gorgeous car?