Porsche, RUF and GT5 - trying to figure out the legal situation

[B Quiet N Drive]

OP - Thanks for providing some info on this.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

I understand 9ff is clear: tuner, not manufacturer.

 

[Furinkazen]

RUF is a tuner as well correct? There's a differnence between taking existing cars and Tuning them (RUF) and making entirely new models (Callaway, taking the Corvette to create the C12)

 

[the Interceptor]

Added Edo Competition's answer.

 

[charliec]

RUF is a tuner as well correct? There's a differnence between taking existing cars and Tuning them (RUF) and making entirely new models (Callaway, taking the Corvette to create the C12)

RUF is considered a manufacturer because they start from a new, bare chassis and install many RUF specific components. VIN is assigned by RUF.

 

[dj-smurph]

It's all gotta do with IP ( intellectual property) rights. Each car maker has IP invested in each product. It is the car makers right to allow licenses for their IP to be used. This is why older cars from bugatti are not in the game as the the IP for those cars does not lie with VAG the parent company. This is my theory it is Based on fact but the names used are just supposition not meant to relate to real life.

 

[charliec]

It's all gotta do with IP ( intellectual property) rights. Each car maker has IP invested in each product. It is the car makers right to allow licenses for their IP to be used. This is why older cars from bugatti are not in the game as the the IP for those cars does not lie with VAG the parent company. This is my theory it is Based on fact but the names used are just supposition not meant to relate to real life.

I don't think it's that. You have to remember that Porsche retains IP rights but EA currently holds the licensing to use Porsche products (and they have ever since NFS: Porsche Unleashed), and they're able to grant that right (for a fee) to other companies, like Turn 10 (Forza). So, the question is why PD didn't obtain rights to Porsche from EA like Take 10 did and why aren't there more Porsche-based models in the game?

The answer may be something as simple as "Porsche licensing costs $10 million a year, RUF licensing costs $500,000 a year" and the cost difference wasn't worth it to PD to pay out. This was the case with F1 licensing (it was costing $15 million a year, and set to increase). It's also possible EA was not willing to sell it to PD since it's the largest racing franchise and the main competitor.

Either way, if they're able to use RUF (Porsche-based cars) are there other Porsche-based cars that could be included in the game in future DLC? Maybe. That's what the OP is trying to figure out.

 

[Blitz24]

I don't think it's that. You have to remember that Porsche retains IP rights but EA currently holds the licensing to use Porsche products (and they have ever since NFS: Porsche Unleashed), and they're able to grant that right (for a fee) to other companies, like Turn 10 (Forza). So, the question is why PD didn't obtain rights to Porsche from EA like Take 10 did and why aren't there more Porsche-based models in the game?

The answer may be something as simple as "Porsche licensing costs $10 million a year, RUF licensing costs $500,000 a year" and the cost difference wasn't worth it to PD to pay out. This was the case with F1 licensing (it was costing $15 million a year, and set to increase). It's also possible EA was not willing to sell it to PD since it's the largest racing franchise and the main competitor.

Either way, if they're able to use RUF (Porsche-based cars) are there other Porsche-based cars that could be included in the game in future DLC? Maybe. That's what the OP is trying to figure out.

Even if there are more Porsche based cars in the wood-works, its probably better for PD (both cost and logic-wise) to just put out more current RUF cars as opposed to adding manufacturers who produce similar cars. I know we all want the Boxter and the 911 and the Carrera, but is it worthwhile if we end up creating another GT5 Lancer, Skyline or Impreza?

 

[charliec]

Even if there are more Porsche based cars in the wood-works, its probably better for PD (both cost and logic-wise) to just put out more current RUF cars as opposed to adding manufacturers who produce similar cars. I know we all want the Boxter and the 911 and the Carrera, but is it worthwhile if we end up creating another GT5 Lancer, Skyline or Impreza?

Ya I'd be happy with having a full line of current premium RUF vehicles, which would include the RUF counterparts for the Carrera GT, Turbo/GT2, Cayenne, GT3, and (I think) the Boxter. 👍

I mean, they already have the licensing, they're typically going to be better performing all around than their Porsche counterparts.

 

[Blitz24]

Ya I'd be happy with having a full line of current premium RUF vehicles, which would include the RUF counterparts for the Carrera GT, Turbo/GT2, Cayenne, GT3, and (I think) the Boxter. 👍

I mean, they already have the licensing, they're typically going to be better performing all around than their Porsche counterparts.

I just got a dumb idea. How cool would it be if an auto magazine did a RUF vs. Porsche comparison thread to determine which is the better of the two.

 

[daisho13]

I have not been following the details of the arguments in this thread, but the research and information has been very appreciated, thanks all.

 

[charliec]

I just got a dumb idea. How cool would it be if an auto magazine did a RUF vs. Porsche comparison thread to determine which is the better of the two.

Ah, well it'd be cool to see but they'd have to find Porsche and RUF owners to lend their vehicles because I'm not sure that Porsche wants their cars seen as inferior. Also, I'm not sure what the relationship is between Porsche and RUF, but I'm not sure that RUF wants to show Porsche cars having their asses handed to them.

I think at a minimum, comparing two equivalent models, the RUF will always have more power, more aggressive suspension, and potentially be lighter weight. In some cases, they've even replaced the engine (the Porsche GT3 equivalent now runs a 550HP naturally aspirated V8 versus the 450HP engine in the GT3 RS).

I'd still like to see it though 👍

 

[Raitziger]

I understand 9ff is clear: tuner, not manufacturer.

But you would have to register that thing as new car where i live as they changed about everything. Performance gain is also far beyond the specifications of the original vehicle.

 

[brainfade]

You guys still completely fail to understand the bottom line of the issue:

YES - EA have exclusivity to Porsche.

NO - the will not give it up as they can easily outspend PD to retain this license

NO - they will not sublicense Porsche to PD as they want to exploit this as a means of competition blocking, you think of it, how many Porsche fans are there? How many people can EA potentially stop from buying GT and make buy NFS instead? A hell of alot.

As for cars like the Quatro S1 and E30 M3, ever think that those cars may have individual licences of exclusivity? It would certainly be a very smart move to fork out for individual licences for individual cars of importance as it throws a spanner in the works of the rival video game, and remember, anything thats thought of by non-industry related people on forums like this are usually things that are already thought of years ago by the industry itself.

If the individual cars mentioned in this thread aren't licensed to other companies exclusively then it just shows that PD are LAZY

 

[Furinkazen]

RUF is considered a manufacturer because they start from a new, bare chassis and install many RUF specific components. VIN is assigned by RUF.

So you classify them as Manufacturars, but the likes of AMG, TRD, NISMO, as Tuners. Having said that, they are in house companies...

 

[charliec]

You guys still completely fail to understand the bottom line of the issue:

YES - EA have exclusivity to Porsche.

NO - the will not give it up as they can easily outspend PD to retain this license

NO - they will not sublicense Porsche to PD as they want to exploit this as a means of competition blocking, you think of it, how many Porsche fans are there? How many people can EA potentially stop from buying GT and make buy NFS instead? A hell of alot.

As for cars like the Quatro S1 and E30 M3, ever think that those cars may have individual licences of exclusivity? It would certainly be a very smart move to fork out for individual licences for individual cars of importance as it throws a spanner in the works of the rival video game, and remember, anything thats thought of by non-industry related people on forums like this are usually things that are already thought of years ago by the industry itself.

I think most people understand the issue, but I suspect there's not "a hell of a lot" of people that would buy NFS over GT specifically because of the Porsche marque. I'm a car fanatic and, as much as I love Porsche, I would never choose NFS over GT just for them. If the two games were more similar, possibly, but having Porsche does not make up for the entirely different gaming experience. The most hardcore Porsche fans are probably Porsche owners that track their cars, and I have no doubt that most of them would prefer GT5 over NFS due to the physics and level of realism.

Anyways, it may very well have just been an opportunity for PD to save millions of dollars by using RUF over Porsche. You're assuming EA was refusing to grant license rights to PD. It may just be that it wasn't worth the additional expense being added to the already massive licensing costs of GT5.

 

[Furinkazen]

I think most people understand the issue, but I suspect there's not "a hell of a lot" of people that would buy NFS over GT specifically because of the Porsche marque. I'm a car fanatic and, as much as I love Porsche, I would never choose NFS over GT just for them. If the two games were more similar, possibly, but having Porsche does not make up for the entirely different gaming experience. The most hardcore Porsche fans are probably Porsche owners that track their cars, and I have no doubt that most of them would prefer GT5 over NFS due to the physics and level of realism.

Anyways, it may very well have just been an opportunity for PD to save millions of dollars by using RUF over Porsche. You're assuming EA was refusing to grant license rights to PD. It may just be that it wasn't worth the additional expense being added to the already massive licensing costs of GT5.

👍 Think of how much getting the Ferrari and Lamborghini's license must have cost.

 

[Blitz24]

You guys still completely fail to understand the bottom line of the issue:

YES - EA have exclusivity to Porsche.

NO - the will not give it up as they can easily outspend PD to retain this license

NO - they will not sublicense Porsche to PD as they want to exploit this as a means of competition blocking, you think of it, how many Porsche fans are there? How many people can EA potentially stop from buying GT and make buy NFS instead? A hell of alot.

Its a double standard, don't block Forza but block Gran Turismo. We all know EA is very selfish about their exclusive licenses and sues at will when feeling challenged by any other competitor. Their greediness caught up to them when Ferrari showed them the door. EA has to have Porsche in their games for it to sell, but the road they are traveling down could end up killing their games if they aren't careful.

 

[charliec]

So you classify them as Manufacturars, but the likes of AMG, TRD, NISMO, as Tuners. Having said that, they are in house companies...

I don't classify them as a manufacturer, the German government classifies them as a manufacturer.

Anyways, the distinction, as far as I'm aware, is based on where the vehicles are registered at. When RUF receives the chassis, they are unregistered. They assign a RUF specific VIN number indicating RUF is the manufacturer.

AMG is owned by Mercedes. NISMO is owned by Nissan. TRD is owned by Toyota. RUF is not owned or affiliated with Porsche.

 

[charliec]

👍 Think of how much getting the Ferrari and Lamborghini's license must have cost.

Yep and it took them long enough! I was pretty unhappy they lost the F1 license too, but when I read it was going up from $15 million a year, I couldn't blame them. I can blame Bernie Ecclestone, but not PD.

 

[Le Mans 88]

PD took so long to get the Ferrari and Lamborghini licences because they didn't value them as much as the European fanbase.

Even now they don't make the most of it, no 250 GTO, 250 LM, 512S, 288 GTO, F40 LM/GTE, F430 GT2/GT3, 333SP and on the Lamborghini front the Murcielago GT1, Gallardo GT2/GT3 etc.

They have odd cars like the Peugeot 905B but where are it's rivals such as the Jaguar XJR-14, Mercedes C291, Toyota TS010 and Mazda MXR-01. These are cars that compete in historic events and/or are demonstrated by the manufacturers so access won't be an issue.

It's the same with modern LMP's with only Peugeot and Audi represented or touring cars with a limited selection of DTM cars from different eras so it's difficult to put together representative and equally matched grids.

 

[brainfade]

They have odd cars like the Peugeot 905B but where are it's rivals such as the Jaguar XJR-14, Mercedes C291, Toyota TS010 and Mazda MXR-01. These are cars that compete in historic events and/or are demonstrated by the manufacturers so access won't be an issue.

It's the same with modern LMP's with only Peugeot and Audi represented or touring cars with a limited selection of DTM cars from different eras so it's difficult to put together representative and equally matched grids.

THIS is my biggest gripe about GT5, so many wonderful cars, that completed at Le Mans that they could easily get into the game, yet they lazily just get one example thinking "yep, we've got it covered".

 

[ItsHim]

You guys still completely fail to understand the bottom line of the issue:

YES - EA have exclusivity to Porsche.

NO - the will not give it up as they can easily outspend PD to retain this license

NO - they will not sublicense Porsche to PD as they want to exploit this as a means of competition blocking, you think of it, how many Porsche fans are there? How many people can EA potentially stop from buying GT and make buy NFS instead? A hell of alot.

I was on a budget once, but come on, games aren't that expensive: who stops you from buying another game besides GT?

And, once and for all, EA being in a position to sub-license a Porsche license is just ridiculous. It's just an urban myth, but a very convenient one.

End of.

 

[brainfade]

I was on a budget once, but come on, games aren't that expensive: who stops you from buying another game besides GT?

And, once and for all, EA being in a position to sub-license a Porsche license is just ridiculous. It's just an urban myth, but a very convenient one.

End of.

So you're calling something that has been confirmed by Kaz, EA and Porsche themselves as a myth as mentioned in this thread? ...wow, you are a genius 👍 ....troll

 

[ItsHim]

So you're calling something that has been confirmed by Kaz, EA and Porsche themselves as a myth as mentioned in this thread? ...wow, you are a genius 👍 ....troll

I was there when it first happened.

EA acquired the Porsche license for NFSorsche, which was quite a struggle and they only pulled it off because (a) the game content was Porsche exclusive and (b) Porsche had major influence in the game design. That's gaming history.

Everything else is just hear-say, speculation and one supposed eMail from a Porsche employee.

I'm not going to give a lecture on (German) copyright law, because copyright law in general is a nightmare if you take it globally because each and every country has its own. But it's completely out of the question EA could sub-license anything Porsche. Not in a million years.

Lastly, Porsche made more money in the naughties from financial transactions than they did selling their cars. Fact. Look it up sometime. So what does management care if they made some additional spare cash with licensing their brand for video games? They simply can't be bothered. It's not because EA has some magic influence acquired through a blood signed contract it's just lack of interest from Porsche's side.

Last but not least Porsche is now owned by VW, and they have a very different approach to marketing via video games. So quite probably we are going to see some Porsches in GT at some point in the future.

That's all there is to it. Doesn't fare too well as a myth, that's why almighty EA holding the key to the Porsche license works far better. And any flaws like T10 also using Porsches are explained away by some hilarious claim that EA has the right to market the Porsche brand in video games. Right.

 

[freedomweasel]

I was there when it first happened.

I'll bet.

Also a letter from Porsche, quoted from the OP:

(emphasis added by me)

Dear Mr. XXX

thank you for your reply of September 14th 2009. We are happy that you own "Need for Speed - Posche unleashed", as you said.

You are correct. Indeed, it does happen that Porsche models appear in computer games. On the one hand, there are cases where Porsche cars are included without our approval. We usually file a lawsuit against that.

On the other hand, there are a few sublicenses handed out by Electronic Arts. This happens to be the case for the Forza Motorsport game series. Due to our close cooperation with Electronic Arts, we accept their entrepreneurial decisions to give out sublicenses. Electronic Arts operates in the area of entertainment software, we operate in the area of producing cars. In terms of a good partnership, we only deem it best to let every one of our partners operate freely in their respective branch. Even if that means that there will be decisions which we would have met differently.

We hope to have helped you with these informations and that the fun in gaming will furthermore be yours.

with best regards
XXX XXX

Porsche contact

 

[STRICTLY STANGS]

I just sent e-mails to Gemballa, Edo Competition, Techart and Mansory. I have received no other responses as of yet.

If there are more manufacturers you deem worth of contacting, please let me know via PM or in this thread. Thank you!

I know saleen is already in there with their S7. But it would have been nice if they included their tuned ford mustang lineup. Saleen 94-98 s281 & s351. 99-04 s281 xtreme. As well as their 05+. I know the company was sold to MJ acquisitions by Steve saleen himself in 2008 so I'm unsure who owns the rights to the older models I just mentioned. I sure miss the saleen sr wide body mustang from GT2 . Thanks Interceptor for your fantastic contribution.

Cheers.

 

[brainfade]

I was there when it first happened.

EA acquired the Porsche license for NFSorsche, which was quite a struggle and they only pulled it off because (a) the game content was Porsche exclusive and (b) Porsche had major influence in the game design. That's gaming history.

Everything else is just hear-say, speculation and one supposed eMail from a Porsche employee.

I'm not going to give a lecture on (German) copyright law, because copyright law in general is a nightmare if you take it globally because each and every country has its own. But it's completely out of the question EA could sub-license anything Porsche. Not in a million years.

Lastly, Porsche made more money in the naughties from financial transactions than they did selling their cars. Fact. Look it up sometime. So what does management care if they made some additional spare cash with licensing their brand for video games? They simply can't be bothered. It's not because EA has some magic influence acquired through a blood signed contract it's just lack of interest from Porsche's side.

Last but not least Porsche is now owned by VW, and they have a very different approach to marketing via video games. So quite probably we are going to see some Porsches in GT at some point in the future.

That's all there is to it. Doesn't fare too well as a myth, that's why almighty EA holding the key to the Porsche license works far better. And any flaws like T10 also using Porsches are explained away by some hilarious claim that EA has the right to market the Porsche brand in video games. Right.

So you're completely disregarding the word of someone inside Porsche? Are you saying that your speculative word is a better more reliable source then someone who actually works for Porsche?

I was there when it first happened.

I seriously doubt you were.

 

[ItsHim]

So you're completely disregarding the word of someone inside Porsche? Are you saying that your speculative word is a better more reliable source then someone who actually works for Porsche?

That's exactly my point - "someone" at Porsche. What's that going to prove? Nothing. Who is that "someone" and is she (I believe it was) even competent and/or entitled to give information on such matters as licensing? Nobody knows, how convenient.

I'm only sticking to what I know, some experience in business matters - and reason.

Believe what you want. Have fun speculating and talking about some conspiracy. But don't blame me calling this whole subject anything other than an urban myth. Because that's what it is.

 

[Furinkazen]

That's exactly my point - "someone" at Porsche. What's that going to prove? Nothing. Who is that "someone" and is she (I believe it was) even competent and/or entitled to give information on such matters as licensing? Nobody knows, how convenient.

I'm only sticking to what I know, some experience in business matters - and reason.

Believe what you want. Have fun speculating and talking about some conspiracy. But don't blame me calling this whole subject anything other than an urban myth. Because that's what it is.

Where's your evidence?

I'm no lawyer, but the reason Porsche are not in GT5 is same as why more F1 car's cannot be included - it would be a violation of an already existing agreement.

As for legal issues, weren't there some to do with the NOMAD Diablo in GT3? I heard that floating around a while ago...