Potato...

[fastone371]

Hahahaha Where did you hear this story?

I used to work in the game industry. 10 years of which with physics based games, so I will go ahead and keep calling it what I want.

So does that mean that certain reactions are "canned"? If driver does A with the car then the will do B regardless of input? These are certain corners at tracks like St Croix for example that if I run wide the result is always the same in regards to what the car does. At one corner I have run wide enough times that I know the car is going to slide around backwards regardless of my inputs, I realized this when I noticed myself downshifting for reverse before the car was backwards. Also many cars in the game it seems almost impossible to do go into a spin and use the throttle to rotate the car 360° so they are facing the correct direction when the car stops, IRL this is quite often very possible, in GTS they always want to end up backwards like the front end is very light.

 

[Brzlav]

Hahahaha Where did you hear this story?

I used to work in the game industry. 10 years of which with physics based games, so I will go ahead and keep calling it what I want.

Since we are at comparing how very great we are, I am a simulation engineer working in the driving dynamics department of one of the brands represented in GTS. Concerning driving dynamics, I know what can and what can't be simulated in real time.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Since we are at comparing how very great we are, I am a simulation engineer working in the driving dynamics department of one of the brands represented in GTS. Concerning driving dynamics, I know what can and what can't be simulated in real time.

Ah, well, then you should know that the term "physics" encompasses quite a lot and the sophistication of the simulation can vary greatly, while still achieving a high degree of accuracy. Dismissing the simulation simply because it doesn't simulate every single thing with every single possible variable is more than a little far fetched, and a little elitist if you ask me.

So does that mean that certain reactions are "canned"?.

In Need For Speed, yes, that is the case. In GT, no that is not the case. Some elements are more rudimentary than others, but it's not a canned sequence n the sense that the outcome is predetermined.

The closest GT was to what you are describing was with the tire "model" or lack thereof. The tires had always been a component of the car's "grip" factor and the compounds were multiples applied to this grip. That was made apparent when GT5 was hacked and we could see the parameters. So, although it was not canned so to speak, it was rudimentary in terms of a simulation.

As far as I could tell, that had not changed in GTS, despite there being a "new" tire model in GT6. The tire model in GT6 seemed to be best described as a ring of concrete. The tire model was changed to a degree when GTS launched, but it wasn't great, and likely because it seemed to still rely on that old system.

However, if I were a betting man, I'm going to bet that is precisely one of the areas that has changed.

 

[fastone371]

Ah, well, then you should know that the term "physics" encompasses quite a lot and the sophistication of the simulation can vary greatly, while still achieving a high degree of accuracy. Dismissing the simulation simply because it doesn't simulate every single thing with every single possible variable is more than a little far fetched, and a little elitist if you ask me.



In Need For Speed, yes, that is the case. In GT, no that is not the case. Some elements are more rudimentary than others, but it's not a canned sequence n the sense that the outcome is predetermined.

The closest GT was to what you are describing was with the tire "model" or lack thereof. The tires had always been a component of the car's "grip" factor and the compounds were multiples applied to this grip. That was made apparent when GT5 was hacked and we could see the parameters. So, although it was not canned so to speak, it was rudimentary in terms of a simulation.

As far as I could tell, that had not changed in GTS, despite there being a "new" tire model in GT6. The tire model in GT6 seemed to be best described as a ring of concrete. The tire model was changed to a degree when GTS launched, but it wasn't great, and likely because it seemed to still rely on that old system.

However, if I were a betting man, I'm going to bet that is precisely one of the areas that has changed.

Do you have any idea why it's so hard to hit the gas to do a 360 when you spin? It seems like the car almost always wants to swing around and quit rotating butt forward no matter what I try yet this is not difficult IRL??

 

[Pigems]

This thread has been very informative, thanks very much fellas.

 

[Brzlav]

Ah, well, then you should know that the term "physics" encompasses quite a lot and the sophistication of the simulation can vary greatly, while still achieving a high degree of accuracy. Dismissing the simulation simply because it doesn't simulate every single thing with every single possible variable is more than a little far fetched

That is not what my remark was about.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Do you have any idea why it's so hard to hit the gas to do a 360 when you spin? It seems like the car almost always wants to swing around and quit rotating butt forward no matter what I try yet this is not difficult IRL??

Sophistication of the model. Since there is no real differential, no real weight, no real tires, etc, etc, everything is an approximation.

Think of the aero as an example. There is no air, ergo no wind, therefore, the game assumes your downforce behaviour under completely perfect conditions (perfect temperature, air pressure, etc.). It's almost as if it's downforce in a vacuum, which is impossible IRL. It's not like reality, but it's close enough.

The tires, even though they differ visually, are all the same in the code. There is no such thing as profile or carcass differences. (If there were, your handling would improve with a +1 or +2 wheel/tire setup, and the handling would change from brand to brand). They same applies to every aspect of the cars. There is (likely) 1 base design, and adjustments on that single base.

IRL, different car chassis makes a big difference. Different metal materials, different thicknesses, etc, etc, etc. In GTS, there is 1 chassis with some adjustability (weight, weight distribution, rigidity, etc). It can come close, but it's not the same as the real thing.

I'm sure you've noticed that doughnut behaviour is different from car to car IRL, correct? If you watch videos of F1 cars doing doughnuts, you'll recognize that the GTS cars behave just like that. They don't spin. Rather, they whip around. An F1 can be considered an "ideal" car in that it is the purest form of a car, so all the cars in GTS are likely to be based on that kind of "ideal" design.

Of course, I don't know the actual code. This is all just speculation. I am only giving a hypothesis based on how the cars behave in game and what I know about how something like this could be realistically implemented.

 

[Mirror_man]

Sophistication of the model. Since there is no real differential, no real weight, no real tires, etc, etc, everything is an approximation.

Think of the aero as an example. There is no air, ergo no wind, therefore, the game assumes your downforce behaviour under completely perfect conditions (perfect temperature, air pressure, etc.). It's almost as if it's downforce in a vacuum, which is impossible IRL. It's not like reality, but it's close enough.

The tires, even though they differ visually, are all the same in the code. There is no such thing as profile or carcass differences. (If there were, your handling would improve with a +1 or +2 wheel/tire setup, and the handling would change from brand to brand). They same applies to every aspect of the cars. There is (likely) 1 base design, and adjustments on that single base.

IRL, different car chassis makes a big difference. Different metal materials, different thicknesses, etc, etc, etc. In GTS, there is 1 chassis with some adjustability (weight, weight distribution, rigidity, etc). It can come close, but it's not the same as the real thing.

I'm sure you've noticed that doughnut behaviour is different from car to car IRL, correct? If you watch videos of F1 cars doing doughnuts, you'll recognize that the GTS cars behave just like that. They don't spin. Rather, they whip around. An F1 can be considered an "ideal" car in that it is the purest form of a car, so all the cars in GTS are likely to be based on that kind of "ideal" design.

Of course, I don't know the actual code. This is all just speculation. I am only giving a hypothesis based on how the cars behave in game and what I know about how something like this could be realistically implemented.

Very honestly.. i find some of your rambling supositions pure rubish... although it says in your profile that you ve been once a games developer.. i doubt you have a minimum knowlege of dinamics, phisics and speciallly the physical model that is used on serious racing games...

 

[ThionER]

Unfortunately, physics does not take your expectations into account.

I see cars being loose in front of you, and you slowing down to maintain your place behind them. No car ahead of you is so sideways that they should be losing massive amounts of speed, nor are you taking advantage of any potential loss by maintaining or increasing your speed.

Here is a great video of Kenny Brack and a GT40 on a wet track at Goodwood. Listen to the engine note and pay attention to his proximity to the other cars. Despite slipping and sliding everywhere, he is only losing time when he lifts. He is often still on the gas and sliding as he gains and passes other cars that are not on the edge. As I keep iterating, a slide, or loss of traction of any kind, in and of itself, is not equal to speed loss. Speed loss MAY be a result, but speed loss is not a predetermined outcome.

Kenny Bräck. A fellow swede . He wins the race becouse he has the currage and skill to push that old car. Racing was more exciting in the old days power was high but the grip low.

I bet the other drivers were just some carowners and Bräck was the only actuall racedriver, becouse they were just out for a nice Sunday drive in the video .

 

[ThionER]

Sophistication of the model. Since there is no real differential, no real weight, no real tires, etc, etc, everything is an approximation.

Think of the aero as an example. There is no air, ergo no wind, therefore, the game assumes your downforce behaviour under completely perfect conditions (perfect temperature, air pressure, etc.). It's almost as if it's downforce in a vacuum, which is impossible IRL. It's not like reality, but it's close enough.

The tires, even though they differ visually, are all the same in the code. There is no such thing as profile or carcass differences. (If there were, your handling would improve with a +1 or +2 wheel/tire setup, and the handling would change from brand to brand). They same applies to every aspect of the cars. There is (likely) 1 base design, and adjustments on that single base.

IRL, different car chassis makes a big difference. Different metal materials, different thicknesses, etc, etc, etc. In GTS, there is 1 chassis with some adjustability (weight, weight distribution, rigidity, etc). It can come close, but it's not the same as the real thing.

I'm sure you've noticed that doughnut behaviour is different from car to car IRL, correct? If you watch videos of F1 cars doing doughnuts, you'll recognize that the GTS cars behave just like that. They don't spin. Rather, they whip around. An F1 can be considered an "ideal" car in that it is the purest form of a car, so all the cars in GTS are likely to be based on that kind of "ideal" design.

Of course, I don't know the actual code. This is all just speculation. I am only giving a hypothesis based on how the cars behave in game and what I know about how something like this could be realistically implemented.

I think you are making a great point. Chassi flex etc etc comes in to play . The gts cars do wip around like a superstiff light perfect f1 car .
I wounded how Sim devs take things like chassi rigidity into account. Ac, pc2 etc etc . One game which at least does it has to be that beamNG.DRIVE

 

[LR-MR-Cole]

The physics in GT Sport have been updated according to the 1.32 changelog. However, exactly what has changed hasn't been revealed.


"8. Physics Simulation Model
　- The handling behaviour of the cars have been adjusted;" Source.


Keeping in mind The Emperor's New Clothes effect, what actual changes have you personally noticed so far?



See also;

The Updated Tyre Model Thread (1.23)

Flaws of The Tyre Model Simulation

The snap oversteer on racing cars is much more accurate on throttle now after this recent update. I love it. However some production models have too much understeer.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Very honestly.. i find some of your rambling supositions pure rubish... although it says in your profile that you ve been once a games developer.. i doubt you have a minimum knowlege of dinamics, phisics and speciallly the physical model that is used on serious racing games...

Ok.

Well, anyone is free to search the web for how cars are implemented in game and verify for yourself. I gave a very generalized explanation. There's far more detail out there to satisfy anyone who would like to know more. Also, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

This fellow posted up a really good breakdown.
http://www.asawicki.info/Mirror/Car Physics for Games/Car Physics for Games.html

Stackexchange has a few threads on the topic.

Read up on it and satisfy your curiousity.

 

[super_gt]

I was able to try yesterday GT Sport with Thrustmaster T300rs and T3PA-PRO pedals(without the CONICAL RUBBER BRAKE MOD). Track Nordschleife, car BMW M4 Coupé, tires - front sports medium, rear sports hard (the front end grip is just not enough for me that's why I use different tires front to rear), all AIDS and ABS off. I must first say that physics is better than GT6. The FFB may not have the road details as Assetto Corsa but the feeling for oversteer in the physics and in the FFB is wonderful, much better than Project CARS 2 and Assetto Corsa.

 

[VBR]

I was able to try yesterday GT Sport with Thrustmaster T300rs...

I've still not tried it with a wheel yet. Really can't be bothered to set it all up. This is the only GT game that has me feeling this way...

 

[Mirror_man]

I was able to try yesterday GT Sport with Thrustmaster T300rs and T3PA-PRO pedals(without the CONICAL RUBBER BRAKE MOD). Track Nordschleife, car BMW M4 Coupé, tires - front sports medium, rear sports hard (the front end grip is just not enough for me that's why I use different tires front to rear), all AIDS and ABS off. I must first say that physics is better than GT6. The FFB may not have the road details as Assetto Corsa but the feeling for oversteer in the physics and in the FFB is wonderful, much better than Project CARS 2 and Assetto Corsa.

You re a party joker! Aint you??? you have to be surely!! As its a pure joke what you ve written after "wonderful, "....

 

[CJ1045]

You re a party joker! Aint you??? you have to be surely!! As its a pure joke what you ve written after "wonderful, "....

I would agree with Super_GT that ffb in GTS is far superior to PC2.

 

[K3Tuning]

It´s still gt-s, what you expect iracing for kids without a wheel.

:/ not sure why the Dig

I play GTS not iRacing, and I no longer have a wheel Im on DS4.

Kid tho?

While I agree if you don't have a wheel GTS is IMHO a much better game and easier to drive through a controller by far.

Some of us have choices in life to make

Like should I invest 1000$ in a Rig set up to play video games or do I put that 1000$ to building my real world project car. 1k don't even go far when you do engine swaps and custom turbo kits.

End of Day both GTS and iRacing are video games bruh

 

[super_gt]

I've still not tried it with a wheel yet. Really can't be bothered to set it all up. This is the only GT game that has me feeling this way...

Worth to try.

You re a party joker! Aint you??? you have to be surely!! As its a pure joke what you ve written after "wonderful, "....

No, I'm not kidding. The feeling for oversteer in the physics and in the FFB is better in GT Sport, at least with the different front to rear tires I tested.

 

[K3Tuning]

Hardly an adequate test to give such a statement.

It would take much driving in varyious comparable situations between the two before a conclusion like that can properly be made.

Just speaks to credibility really.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Worth to try.

No, I'm not kidding. The feeling for oversteer in the physics and in the FFB is better in GT Sport, at least with the different front to rear tires I tested.

How does it compare to Live for Speed in your opinion ?

 

[super_gt]

How does it compare to Live for Speed in your opinion ?

The GT Sport gave me the closest feel for oversteer and FFB to LFS from all the games I have played which are(for those who doubt my credibility) rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa, Assetto Corsa Competizione, Automobilista, Project Cars 1&2.
I played an hour and made 6 laps on the Nordschleife.

 

[DrVegas45]

A few days ago I decided to go back to drifting because of the updated physics model. Coming into this I was hyped because the cars exuded more grip and stability across the board, and man was I in for a treat.

I haven't tried drifting since the game came out. With the new physics model update I may have to reconsider.....

 

[Lord Protector]

I haven't tried drifting since the game came out. With the new physics model update I may have to reconsider.....

don't even bother tire model is still painfully bad.

 

[kjeldsen]

*EDIT*

 

[K3Tuning]

No worries lol I can see more blanket statements without much substatiation. But hey probably the most credible guy in the world, more credible then anybody in history, Tremendous credibility.

Hope y'all know super_gt is not Super GT....

 

[The Cake]

My personal opinion is that the last update in physics has broken the game for me. I think that the update before the newest one was the best.
N cars r horrible to drive now, it feels like driving a train or something, and also so understeery, almost like dirt 4 i some ways. Step on tha accelerator with a rear wheel car and it just goes straight forward. U could use drift setup scheme and its better, but u cant i fia races.

Another thing I have discovered is that its way harder to trail brake, u have to brake way harder than before. I used to apply small breaking inputs and trail brake, but now when I do the car just understeers and overshot the corner, even with brake balance 5.

Accelerator inputs a better now than before, brake feels like it have bad linearity or something. My opinion.

I have driven over 100.000 km in this game, but after this newest physics update im getting bored. Considering to quit after the official FIA season.

 

[MisterOne77]

My personal opinion is that the last update in physics has broken the game for me. I think that the update before the newest one was the best.
N cars r horrible to drive now, it feels like driving a train or something, and also so understeery, almost like dirt 4 i some ways. Step on tha accelerator with a rear wheel car and it just goes straight forward. U could use drift setup scheme and its better, but u cant i fia races.

Another thing I have discovered is that its way harder to trail brake, u have to brake way harder than before. I used to apply small breaking inputs and trail brake, but now when I do the car just understeers and overshot the corner, even with brake balance 5.

Accelerator inputs a better now than before, brake feels like it have bad linearity or something. My opinion.

I have driven over 100.000 km in this game, but after this newest physics update im getting bored. Considering to quit after the official FIA season.

I've driven nothing but N-class cars on Nurburgring as of late and none of them feel any less turntable at high speeds than they did before (imo). They actually feel more maneuverable IMO.

 

[The Cake]

I've driven nothing but N-class cars on Nurburgring as of late and none of them feel any less turntable at high speeds than they did before (imo). They actually feel more maneuverable IMO.

but do you play on a wheel or controller?

I talked to several people that play on a controller and they dont feel the understeer thing, but Ive talked to a friend with a wheel and he have sort of the same opinion as me.

But it seems like most people are enjoying it.

 

[Haitauer]

Another thing I have discovered is that its way harder to trail brake, u have to brake way harder than before. I used to apply small breaking inputs and trail brake, but now when I do the car just understeers and overshot the corner, even with brake balance 5.

I was just about to post something related to this. Dont know about changes, but heres my thoughts on current abs.

Yesterday I hit a wall trying to improve my gr4 dragon trail daily qualifying time from 1.45:7. Just couldnt get the car turn in better and couldnt control braking as much as i would have wanted as ABS (weak) was controlling the yaw of the car too much with brake balace even slightly to rear just made the car not stop anymore. I guess abs is cutting the brake pressure of all wheels according to most easily locking wheel.

Apply ABS OFF. I have tested this now and then, but for reasons of easy accessibility and to have easier transitions between cars and tracks, i have kept abs on. One less thing to concentrate - kind of tought. What surpriced me this time was how everything transformed once abs was off. Whole balance of the car changed a bit and I felt a lot more in control. It did take few laps of all kinds of disasters to get used to abs off, but after 30 laps i had shaved my time to 1.45:446 - #249 at EMEA region st that point.. almost half a second off! I even left few tenths on track - mostly due to wall contact at bus stop i guess. Optimal from that session was 1.45:2xx. And it wasnt because of practice. I have driven some 200+ laps on that very qualifying whith that very same huracan past few days. I was just able to brake later as car stopped faster without abs interfering and able to control the yaw of the car so much better with trail braking pressure and brake balance. And i was also more consistent between laps and closer to my fastest time most of the time - go figure! Those little puffs of white smoke tell how well one can brake at the edge of grip without abs.



That said I think theres a huge variation how people feel the "physics" of GTS depending on settings and gear. Im using t-gt without the rumble ang a 30kg conical sping mod i made for the brake, so i have pretty good feel of brake pressure. But if i just compare abs on vs off theres a huge difference, let alone other aids or different wheels or ds4. Cant imagine theres just one model of physics we could even compare if using different settings / gear. And that easy transition between cars i was talking earlier? You can forget about it without abs..

ps. Still wondering why that red brake pressure cut off is still present with abs off.. simulating the pressure valve of any given car irl? Sadly im also more and more convinced abs in GTS works more like a stability control than just abs..

 

[Scaff]

ps. Still wondering why that red brake pressure cut off is still present with abs off.. simulating the pressure valve of any given car irl? Sadly im also more and more convinced abs in GTS works more like a stability control than just abs..

ABS in GT (most of the series) has acted as a brake balance control as well as ABS, its why adjusting brake bias has always had a negligible effect when you have ABS switched on.