Potato...

[Jtheripper]

The Force Feedback in less powerful steering wheels is clearer, sharper, crisper, & much more detailed in GT6 compared to GT Sport. The force pulling the wheel left or right as the car oversteers is also stronger, making it easier to catch slides. There is no unrealistic arcade effect that makes the wheel vibrate or makes it go light when you oversteer. I did 3 laps in the KTM Xbow in both GT6 & GT Sport, & the FFB in GT6 wins by a country mile IMHO.

Wow. Thats surprising. I thought gts was supposed to be more sim-like.
Well i know its simcade but still.
Gts is my 1st gt game since the 1st one i think. It's nice for what it is of course.
Just surprised by this.

You must ask yourself if slides are easier to catch in GT6 because of better FFB, or simply because of a more forgiving arcade-like physics model.

A good companion to this theory is the launch physics in GT6 vs GTS. In GT6 the car launches straight as an arrow every time, whereas it’s quite difficult to launch most cars in GTS without TCS.

I’m not leaning one way or the other, it’s just something to think about.

I see.

Tks for edit mod. Sorry for that.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

A good companion to this theory is the launch physics in GT6 vs GTS. In GT6 the car launches straight as an arrow every time, whereas it’s quite difficult to launch most cars in GTS without TCS.

Launch physics in GTS is more a product of the piss poor tire grip model in GTS rather than better or a good physics model.

Go try a launch in PC2 or ACC and you will see a better implemented tire grip model that a car can be launched normally without using an overkill of TC to accomplish it.

 

[Scaff]

You must ask yourself if slides are easier to catch in GT6 because of better FFB, or simply because of a more forgiving arcade-like physics model.

A good companion to this theory is the launch physics in GT6 vs GTS. In GT6 the car launches straight as an arrow every time, whereas it’s quite difficult to launch most cars in GTS without TCS.

I’m not leaning one way or the other, it’s just something to think about.

Even that's been undone with the latest patch in GTS, with the small gains they had made gone.

Most cars will now once again launch arrow straight in GTS, and a back to back against the same cars in either AC or PC2 (and my own real-world experience) highlighting just how far out GTS is.

I find it very difficult to do the whole slide-pause-recovery thing when I get interrupted by an unrealistic vibration &/or sudden lightness on my FFB wheel that wouldn't be there in the real world. Some of it may be down to differences in physics models, but that's not the whole picture. I drove a Caterham 7 Superlight R500 in anger at a track day in 2009, I know what oversteer feels like without power steering in a car on hard slicks as well as road tyres, & it was easier to control than in a similar car in GT6 or GT Sport. The whole thing doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with racing or sports tyres, but mainly with comfort tyres, and it wasn't even an issue until recently.

Yep, the lightness that should only be experienced in understeer just seems to be used to convey the loss of grip regardless of which axle/corner it's occurring at, what the vibration is all about on the other hand I have no idea at all as I've thought it was odd since day one and remain of that opinion.

 

[VBR]

Yep, the lightness that should only be experienced in understeer just seems to be used to convey the loss of grip regardless of which axle/corner it's occurring at, what the vibration is all about on the other hand I have no idea at all as I've thought it was odd since day one and remain of that opinion.

Yeah, the vibration has been there since day one, but it seems to have gotten a lot worse with CS tyres now. I would rarely feel it, & only if I pushed way too hard, but now it happens on CS tyres even when not pushing too hard. I admit I have assumed it's an arcade effect designed to make us aware the car is oversteering, like in Forza 4, but then again it could just be a bug, I have no idea (meme).

 

[potvinsuks]

Wow. Thats surprising. I thought gts was supposed to be more sim-like.
Well i know its simcade but still.
Gts is my 1st gt game since the 1st one i think. It's nice for what it is of course.
Just surprised by this.



I see.

Tks for edit mod. Sorry for that.

Launch physics in GTS is more a product of the piss poor tire grip model in GTS rather than better or a good physics model.

Go try a launch in PC2 or ACC and you will see a better implemented tire grip model that a car can be launched normally without using an overkill of TC to accomplish it.

It's extremely frustrating to have to constantly defend GTS's Physics to people when I'm on pCARS 2.

As it has been observed by experienced GTS players and the not so experienced alike. In my opinion, most of the complaints at GTS are incorrectly aimed at its Physics when in reality it's the Tyre Model that is the root of most of these issues.

 

[Jtheripper]

It's extremely frustrating to have to constantly defend GTS's Physics to people when I'm on pCARS 2.

As it has been observed by experienced GTS players and the not so experienced alike. In my opinion, most of the complaints at GTS are incorrectly aimed at its Physics when in reality it's the Tyre Model that is the root of most of these issues.

Agreed and the simple track surface i think.

 

[Scaff]

It's extremely frustrating to have to constantly defend GTS's Physics to people when I'm on pCARS 2.

As it has been observed by experienced GTS players and the not so experienced alike. In my opinion, most of the complaints at GTS are incorrectly aimed at its Physics when in reality it's the Tyre Model that is the root of most of these issues.

I personally consider the tyre model to simply be a part of the GTS physics engine, as such I would consider the tyre model issues, aero model issue and damper issue to all be physics issues.

When looking at the real world physics of vehicle dynamics all of these subjects (and more) come under that banner, as such I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to racing titles that are attempting to simulate the same.

 

[VBR]

In my opinion, most of the complaints at GTS are incorrectly aimed at its Physics when in reality it's the Tyre Model that is the root of most of these issues.

The tyre model is a part of the physics model. When people say that the physics are wrong in the context of a conversation about the tyres, it's quite obvious which part of the physics model they are referring to. There's no need to differentiate IMO.

 

[fastone371]

It's extremely frustrating to have to constantly defend GTS's Physics to people when I'm on pCARS 2.

As it has been observed by experienced GTS players and the not so experienced alike. In my opinion, most of the complaints at GTS are incorrectly aimed at its Physics when in reality it's the Tyre Model that is the root of most of these issues.

I dont know how or if this even fits this conversation as I have no idea how PD implements differences between driving with a DS4 and a wheel with pedals. It gets pretty old watching someone driving with a DS4 sliding all over the track and completely missing the apex but yet they are able to carry more speed thru corners than a capable person on a wheel who is using good lines thru corners. It also seems DS4 users can get away with braking later than wheel users. I know there are some very, very capable DS4 racers out there, watching one of their replays you would swear they are on a wheel, those are not the racers I am talking about, it's that ones who's cars seem to be correcting their steering thru every part of the track and never look smooth yet are setting some great times. Is that a function of the PD's physics or just an advantage PD builds into the game to make DS4 users competitive with wheel users?

 

[potvinsuks]

I personally consider the tyre model to simply be a part of the GTS physics engine, as such I would consider the tyre model issues, aero model issue and damper issue to all be physics issues.

When looking at the real world physics of vehicle dynamics all of these subjects (and more) come under that banner, as such I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to racing titles that are attempting to simulate the same.

The tyre model is a part of the physics model. When people say that the physics are wrong in the context of a conversation about the tyres, it's quite obvious which part of the physics model they are referring to. There's no need to differentiate IMO.

Hmm, thanks for the responses guys.

I was always under the impression that the Tyre Model and Physics Model were 2 separate bits of programing that eventually comes together.. This is very interesting to me.

Is it that GTS is programmed uniquely this way, and other Sims like pCARS, RF2, AC etc are built with separate Tyre and Physics Models?

Or it's all the same and I just had it wrong this whole time?

 

[Scaff]

Hmm, thanks for the responses guys.

I was always under the impression that the Tyre Model and Physics Model were 2 separate bits of programing that eventually comes together.. This is very interesting to me.

Is it that GTS is programmed uniquely this way, and other Sims like pCARS, RF2, AC etc are built with separate Tyre and Physics Models?

Or it's all the same and I just had it wrong this whole time?

Anything that's presenting itself as a sim has to have them as an integrated package.

You can't separate the tyre model from the suspension model fir example, when tyres themselves actual act as springs and dampers (as tyres compress and expand under load) which affects the suspension geometry and the load on the suspension itself.

Another example is the drive train model added to the above, when a car is launched the torque is sent to the driven wheels (unequally in reality) and that affects the contact patch as well as moving the car, which affects the load, which affects the tyres trip level and rge suspension.

They have to all work together as a whole physics engine.

The easiest way to look at it is that the tyre model is to the physics engine what a tyre is to a car. It's a part of the whole thing, but can be discussed in its own right.

If you want an extreme example if this, in PC2 the excess heat from the brakes can be seen to actually affect the internal temp and pressure of the tyres.

 

[VBR]

Hmm, thanks for the responses guys.

I was always under the impression that the Tyre Model and Physics Model were 2 separate bits of programing that eventually comes together.. This is very interesting to me.

Is it that GTS is programmed uniquely this way, and other Sims like pCARS, RF2, AC etc are built with separate Tyre and Physics Models?

Or it's all the same and I just had it wrong this whole time?

The definition of the word physics is, "...the branch of science concerned with the nature and properties of matter and energy.". A computer-based physics model would, therefore, include everything in the real world that would be considered matter & energy. Rubber is matter, & tyres are made of rubber, ergo tyres are part of the physics model in racing simulators.

 

[breeminator]

I dont know how or if this even fits this conversation as I have no idea how PD implements differences between driving with a DS4 and a wheel with pedals. It gets pretty old watching someone driving with a DS4 sliding all over the track and completely missing the apex but yet they are able to carry more speed thru corners than a capable person on a wheel who is using good lines thru corners. It also seems DS4 users can get away with braking later than wheel users. I know there are some very, very capable DS4 racers out there, watching one of their replays you would swear they are on a wheel, those are not the racers I am talking about, it's that ones who's cars seem to be correcting their steering thru every part of the track and never look smooth yet are setting some great times. Is that a function of the PD's physics or just an advantage PD builds into the game to make DS4 users competitive with wheel users?

Could they be using countersteer assist? I played the game with a controller for a week and didn't notice any physics help like you describe, other than the usual "auto seeking" of the amount of steering for optimal grip, which all games do when using a controller. I've found this particularly helpful around tight hairpins, where with a wheel you have to constantly turn it more as you slow down, otherwise you're not steering as much as you could be, but with a controller, you just slam it over to the side, and the game increases the steering for you as you slow down. I've mostly found my times very similar between wheel and controller, but driving the Alfa Gr.4 at Tokyo was much better with the wheel. I can imagine strong countersteer assist being OP with a controller, though. With a wheel it's annoying, because it's constantly applying little bits of force feedback, even when no correction is required. So it's effective in allowing you to just throw the car around without spinning out, but comes with a big negative of feeling horrible to drive. With a controller, you'll get all the benefit but without the negative.

 

[VBR]

I noticed some time ago that this car has started doing this again, & also the Diablo was incredibly stable on this update but has become very unstable again. All of this leads me to believe that they have updated the physics again without telling us.

Well, I finally got around to trying it with a wheel & what can I say other than try to express the absolute bitter disappointment I feel. Not only has the 96 Evo on CS tyres become unstable again with a pad, but now it feels the same way with the wheel (it never used to). They have totally ruined the driving experience for me. It was such fun on CS tyres, & now it's a horrendous drive.

Also, the problem with massive understeer causing me to have to turn the wheel loads has returned. I mentioned this in another thread, it doesn't even feel like understeer but more like the car's fitted with a different steering rack. This was something that was fixed in the second physics update, but now it's back.

Then there's the awful FFB. Yes. there is a little bit more detail there now, but nowhere near what GT6 had (I went back & had a go & it felt awesome). The biggest issue I have with the FFB is the unrealistic arcade style effects where the wheel "vibrates" when you get severe oversteer & then goes light when it gets even worse. I'm not even going to go into all the details as to why this kind of nonsense defies the laws of physics, just to say that GT Sport is the only game in the series where I don't wanna set up my wheel because of the awful FFB & that it's getting worse, not better.

Changed my vote from "Better" to "Much Worse".


🤬 👎

I just ran the same races again after the 1.38 update, & things feel slightly different yet again. The massive understeer problem has gone again, can't feel it at all on the Evo 96 on CS tyres at Suzuka, could before. The crazy oversteer when coming off the brakes & turning seems to have been reduced slightly as well. Not sure if bugs, or if "Other minor corrections and stability improvements have been performed." Hmmm...

 

[The Cake]

I feel like 4wd have the best feeling in gtsport, less understeery than rwd, strangely. Its so much understeering now days I almost dont want to drive any more. Even if you have bb +5 its just understeers into corners. I know understeering can come if you have to much speed into corners, but if you have bb + 5 you should get more turn in. And also, when you step on the accelerator with rwd cars, it just goes straight forward, no powersliding at all. No feeling. I would say it was almost perfect before the last physics change, but they have ruin it

My subjective meaning

 

[Haitauer]

I feel like 4wd have the best feeling in gtsport, less understeery than rwd, strangely. Its so much understeering now days I almost dont want to drive any more. Even if you have bb +5 its just understeers into corners. I know understeering can come if you have to much speed into corners, but if you have bb + 5 you should get more turn in. And also, when you step on the accelerator with rwd cars, it just goes straight forward, no powersliding at all. No feeling. I would say it was almost perfect before the last physics change, but they have ruin it

My subjective meaning

Not just in this case, but in general theres big differences in GTS "physics" depending on car, tire and setup used. Most bop tunes with the most used RH/sport tires are very understeery and numb.

Some cars feel like theres another physics model in play. My latest favourite being the f1500-ta at brands with RM tires. FFB feels very nice.

Im using T-GT without rumble and quite medium settings.

That said - as long as its a game and it has various settings at play and very different controllers/hardware per user, I really cant point my finger what is realistic and what not. Depending on design decisions theres different variations how games implement the information one usually gets through g-force, sound and car body roll/ rumble into the wheel ffb only. As none of this is realistic, id say its a matter of taste. I for one cant appreciate the physics/ffb of pcars2, but i like Assetto Corsa and think AC is fairly close to GTS vs PC2. But that might just be matter of T-GT working similarly in GTS and AC or just my own preference.

Must add - this sense of "realism" must vary greatly depending on ones own real life daily driver and experience. Just this winter went from rwd to fwd in my daily driver, and its a completely different feel with all the torque steer it has and launches very differently depending on many variables..

 

[Suzumiya]

Kinda wanted to bump this thread to show something that I found out by lowering steering lock on my T300RS.



Just turning more gives way more grip on FF cars in qualifying runs. I know during the race you might suffer tire wear, but this race has no tire wear value.

 

[VBR]

...the vibration has been there since day one, but it seems to have gotten a lot worse with CS tyres now. I would rarely feel it, & only if I pushed way too hard, but now it happens on CS tyres even when not pushing too hard.

I just ran the same races again after the 1.38 update, & things feel slightly different yet again...The crazy oversteer when coming off the brakes & turning seems to have been reduced slightly as well.

I think that the crazy oversteer when coming off the brakes is making the whole vibration/lightness bug worse, as you only get that bug when the car oversteers. At first, the crazy brake oversteer only happened on the pad, not the wheel. Then in the 1.32 update, the crazy brake oversteer problem on the pad was gone. Then a few updates later the crazy brake oversteer problem returned but is now affecting the wheel as well as the pad. It's happening on every road car I'm driving, on Comfort & Sports tyres. Not noticed it on race cars on Racing tyres though...


🤬 👎

 

[Lord Protector]

"　- The handling behaviour of the cars has been adjusted;"

is it any better?

 

[Balwerk]

"　- The handling behaviour of the cars has been adjusted;"

is it any better?

I dunno just me or now physic during qualify and races is same, before this physic or tires feel during races much slippier

 

[Draggon]

It feels like there is more lateral grip, which may or may not be a good thing,

 

[GT_Alex74]

I think overall the new physics are faster, but you need to adjust to more corner exit understeer on throttle

 

[Sidawg2]

Cars seem slidier, more rear wear as well which compounds it. But never out of control. Remains to be seen what that does to certain cars

 

[MPincombe]

I think overall the new physics are faster, but you need to adjust to more corner exit understeer on throttle

Yeah definitely seems like there's more understeer and less oversteer when getting the power down. Only driven the SF so far around Monza, as I have a race tonight but I practiced before the update and it was definitely a lot twitchier on the rear coming out of the 1st and 2nd chicanes

 

[Haitauer]

"　- The handling behaviour of the cars has been adjusted;"

is it any better?

Definetely less oversteer and more prone to understeer at corner exit. Tried gr3 rsr, mustang and ford gt in daily quali at Brands which I have all three driven quite a lot. RSR is harder to turn out of corner (understeer), Mustang doesnt loose its rear grip when putting power down at exit and if rarely does its easy to catch. Ford gt is nearly as stable as RSR was before the update. This might even out the differences between cars and engine layouts..

Is it better? ..cant quite tell yet.

Ps. Car also seems overly stable over grass or if you drop wheel to grass in a corner.

 

[VBR]

"　- The handling behaviour of the cars has been adjusted;"

is it any better?

The crazy brake oversteer, as I like to call it, has gone again. There's still oversteer, but not the lurching/snap oversteer we used to get when coming off the brakes. It's gone on the pad, & the wheel, so at least road cars are now drivable again. It wasn't noticeable on race cars on race tyres anyway, just on road cars on Comfort & Sports tyres.

The horrendous FFB vibration & lightness during oversteer bug is still there, however, & feels a lot worse to me. It seems much more pronounced now. And, in the Evo 96, I cannot feel any self-aligning torque when the car oversteers, just vibration & lightness. The FFB is still unrealistic & atrocious, but slightly more so now.

 

[Haitauer]

The crazy brake oversteer, as I like to call it, has gone again. There's still oversteer, but not the lurching/snap oversteer we used to get when coming off the brakes. It's gone on the pad, & the wheel, so at least road cars are now drivable again. It wasn't noticeable on race cars on race tyres anyway, just on road cars on Comfort & Sports tyres.

The horrendous FFB vibration & lightness during oversteer bug is still there, however, & feels a lot worse to me. It seems much more pronounced now. And, in the Evo 96, I cannot feel any self-aligning torque when the car oversteers, just vibration & lightness. The FFB is still unrealistic & atrocious, but slightly more so now.

I also thought ffb was lighter when trying the daily quali, then went to arcade tt at Nurb with the same gr3 mustang and same tires and the ffb was fighting me.. cant se the logic there.

 

[ARTAsean]

Did they wipe the Campaign leaderboards again?

 

[MisterWaffles]

Has anyone tried the 458 GT3 yet? I thought it was pretty similar to how it felt before the update. If a little more stable coming out of corners. Maybe someone else can give it a go and come up with some more objective points.

 

[KepleroGT]

I dunno just me or now physic during qualify and races is same, before this physic or tires feel during races much slippier

It's definitely not just you. It did really feel slippier. At least now I have an accurate prediction of the tire wear for the races in my league.