Potato...

[LogSwapper]

Feels like Gr.3 Lambo and Ferrari got well and truly shafted. Not only is the horrible liftoff-oversteer back with a vengeance, now there is also understeer to deal with. And they are still deadly when hitting kerbs. Their BoP setups need fixin’, badly.

 

[splitwindow]

Where did I say he doesn't "deserve to have an opinion"?

Therefore I don't think your opinion about the physics update holds any water.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.
It's a fine line and maybe I read too much into it.

 

[Lord Protector]

My touhts exatly. Seems i can better change the angle/slip with weight transfer between throttle and brake.

At this point i think the sweet spot would be the current 1.39 physics with a bit less grip under acceleration.

you can fix the acceleration understeer by opening the LSD more, put like 50-60 in the "acceleration sensitivity", depending on car. of course, not usable in most of the online races unfortunately.

 

[breeminator]

Now it feels like 2 times the load gives 4 times as much grip.

I think there's something like this going on, the effect of the weight is greater than it should be. A GT-R has 47% rear weight distribution, an R8 56% rear. That shouldn't make the difference between spinning the wheels even in a longer gear vs the wheels being glued to the road at all times.

 

[gtpierre]

Feels like Gr.3 Lambo and Ferrari got well and truly shafted. Not only is the horrible liftoff-oversteer back with a vengeance, now there is also understeer to deal with. And they are still deadly when hitting kerbs. Their BoP setups need fixin’, badly.

It's compensated by literally having not an once of oversteer at corner exit. You can press instantaneously on the throttle in 2nd gear and the car stays straight.

Very realistic. Maybe PD guys should try to drive a GT car once. Or at least watch an onboard cam from Mapelli driving the #563 huaracan if they think GT3 cars are so stable at acceleration and so unstable at braking.

 

[fastone371]

From most peoples opinions it seems the biggest reason to like or hate (my view) the 1.39 update is your input method, the cars, and the tires you prefer. Now the one car that I need to try is the GR3GTR yet to feel the wheel spin on corner exit.
I drive with a Fanatec CSL Elite and V3 load cell pedals, I do not use any aids in any car or group except Default ABS but I just as often use weak ABS. I prefer race cars with slicks to stock or road cars with road tires. I do sometimes drive road cars with sport or even comforts and so far the couple I have driven, namely the Supra, seem easier to control, especially under braking and corner exit. The race cars with slicks seem much worse, very dull compared to 1.38, and I just do not see how people think the on throttle exit grip is realistic. Yes, slicks are sticky but when the wheel is turned much of your available grip is used laterally limiting how much throttle can be applied without tire spin. I used to like the challenge of getting the car quickly off the corner. I prefer to drive easy in while keeping the car under control and exiting quickly. I rarely if ever try to pass someone by out braking them, but I also believe stopping distances are shorter using a DS4 which is why I am not a late brake, I have seen people who I think use a DS4 start braking where I would be in the kitty litter if I tried braking that late.
For me the race cars seem less responsive to trail braking pulling the front end down to the apex, I am having a hard time with that compared to 1.38 but I did notice that when the car is already under steering the brakes will stop the front end from sliding. In light of that it doesnt make sense why I am having issues getting the cars to turn in nice while trail braking, I feel the front end just pushes and you finally scrub off enough speed to start turning. Like I mentioned in another post maybe it comes down to your input method, maybe DS4 users prefer 1.39 and wheel users prefer 1.38. Until we have a poll that highlights input and car/tire/aid preference we will never be comparing apples to apples. I still have a hard time passing cars thru the corner who take up 2 or more lanes because they are sliding rather than driving thru the corner, a technique I just dont see when watching a real race.

 

[GordonS]

It's compensated by literally having not an once of oversteer at corner exit. You can press instantaneously on the throttle in 2nd gear and the car stays straight.

Very realistic. Maybe PD guys should try to drive a GT car once. Or at least watch an onboard cam from Mapelli driving the #563 huaracan if they think GT3 cars are so stable at acceleration and so unstable at braking.

For reference, a certain David Perel has very stable moments with his Ferrari.
Observe the corner launches:

Such a fantastic footage that I might actually choose Ferrari for the rest of the Manufacturer Series..

 

[Haitauer]

From the experience I've had I pretty much agree with this. The only element that feels 'wrong' to me (with no actual race car experience to compare to) is that acceleration out of corners is just too easy now. Get to the apex, nail the throttle and away you go. Before it felt like balancing the throttle on exit was a rewarding challenge. Get it wrong and you'll spin out. Get it right and the lap times tumble. That's now gone.

My hope is that with more time I/we will get used to it. It's not taken any of the fun away but it's the first physics update I've experienced with something that feels off about it.

I hope the grip on acceleration would be somewhere between .38 and .39. I like the car to collapse tire and squirm at the limit but .38 was a bit too slippery on/off.

you can fix the acceleration understeer by opening the LSD more, put like 50-60 in the "acceleration sensitivity", depending on car. of course, not usable in most of the online races unfortunately.

Oh how much i wish they would open the lsd a bit in bop. Since im mostly driving bop i dont have this option.

 

[Fabr_123]

For reference, a certain David Perel has very stable moments with his Ferrari.
Observe the corner launches:

Such a fantastic footage that I might actually choose Ferrari for the rest of the Manufacturer Series..

But you're missing the fact that he is using TC. He even said that the drivers never turn it off.

 

[Brzlav]

But you're missing the fact that he is using TC. He even said that the drivers never turn it off.

True, but TC in rl isn't the same as TC2 and upwards in GTS. In GTS, it's a perfect stability program on corner exit. Rl TC is probably more like TC1 in GTS where you can still have power oversteer out of tight corners.
They can tune TC on the fly in the car though, and, some cars have a special TC setting that is only used on the Nordschleife. On modern, less bumpy courses, a less aggressive TC setting suffices.

OT, it's a minor annoyance imo that in GTS lobbies, you can only allow or forbid TC and ABS completely. You can't say "ABS weak and TC 1 is allowed".

 

[breeminator]

I think there's something like this going on, the effect of the weight is greater than it should be. A GT-R has 47% rear weight distribution, an R8 56% rear. That shouldn't make the difference between spinning the wheels even in a longer gear vs the wheels being glued to the road at all times.

And just tried the Gr.3 Corvette. 50% weight distribution. Can spin the rear wheels exiting slow corners, but not as easily as the GT-R. Can slide the back end if you unweight it, basically it's in between the 47% rear and 56% rear cars in the way you'd expect if the weight distribution is what is determining those things.

 

[Lord Protector]

I think there's something like this going on, the effect of the weight is greater than it should be. A GT-R has 47% rear weight distribution, an R8 56% rear. That shouldn't make the difference between spinning the wheels even in a longer gear vs the wheels being glued to the road at all times.

Don’t forget the GTS tire model, which behaves in strange ways. Once the tires lose grip, they have so much less grip. It’s not life-like.

 

[Fabr_123]

True, but TC in rl isn't the same as TC2 and upwards in GTS. In GTS, it's a perfect stability program on corner exit. Rl TC is probably more like TC1 in GTS where you can still have power oversteer out of tight corners.
They can tune TC on the fly in the car though, and, some cars have a special TC setting that is only used on the Nordschleife. On modern, less bumpy courses, a less aggressive TC setting suffices.

OT, it's a minor annoyance imo that in GTS lobbies, you can only allow or forbid TC and ABS completely. You can't say "ABS weak and TC 1 is allowed".

No matter how low the TC level is, they never stop using it. If you turn it off completely, you will probably need a lot of passion to apply power out of corners, or the car you spin. Now in 1.39, you can go full throttle as early as you feel you won't understeer.

 

[dabz343]

I love Gran Turismo, & hate it too! If I do sometimes come across as being super critical it's just because I'm incredibly passionate about the series & would dearly love to see it improve.

Look at as many different games as possible for inspiration. Most importantly, listen to the core playerbase because they are what keeps the competition alive.

This is--'leaving the door wide open' to your competitors...why would you NOT take great care of your most dedicated and loyal fans of your franchise?...Because of Asian culture? I don't buy it--perhaps it has more to do with how feedback has been orchestrated thus far from the FANS. Rants, tantrums, shenanigans outnumber the quality few--and the problem, if you want it addressed properly, may lie on both sides. Cheers to those that continue to bring value and jeers to those that just can't help themselves.

it doesnt make sense why I am having issues getting the cars to turn in nice while trail braking, I feel the front end just pushes and you finally scrub off enough speed to start turning.

Hmm, try trailing deeper (scrubbing the last 10-15% just before the apex) AND blending in some throttle at the same time. You are risking severe rotation here and it can feel very unnatural, but it's quite forgiving in 1.39--this is the part that makes it feel like a video game to me.

 

[gtpierre]

For reference, a certain David Perel has very stable moments with his Ferrari.
Observe the corner launches:

Such a fantastic footage that I might actually choose Ferrari for the rest of the Manufacturer Series..

this is a great video. I watched this week end 's race in paul ricard, I don't remember how it went for him tough.
It's cool because you see that even though he explains the car is set to understeer rather than oversteer, you can see that mid turn and at the exit, he has to apply many little countersteering movements.

But you're missing the fact that he is using TC. He even said that the drivers never turn it off.

Except that IRL TC only "prevents" wheels from spinning. Like @Brzlav said, it doesn't correct "too much throttle" with a magic slowing/understeering like it does in GTS.


I don't know, but when I bought GT sport, I did not think the game would be made so that NFS and GTA players can easily drive all the cars...

 

[breeminator]

I've now tried the following Gr.3 cars in Free Practice for the next Nations Cup at DTG. The track looks a bit damp, which is maybe affecting things compared to a dry track.

R8
M6
Beetle
GT-R
C7

The only one where I felt I could mash the throttle with impunity on exit from slow corners was the R8, all the others need some care with throttle application. If some people feel they are able to mash the throttle with impunity with those cars, I can only think they're so used to applying the throttle carefully that they subconsciously can't make themselves truly slam the throttle straight to 100% as soon as the car could exit if it didn't lose traction.

 

[Veinz]

Turn 9 interlagos, I can crank the wheel to the left while mashing the throttle and the gr4 McLaren doesn’t even flinch on RH tires. It used to be relatively easy to make the rear end step out on pretty much anything there so now it feels very weird, like it’s AWD.

 

[dabz343]

you can see that mid turn and at the exit, he has to apply many little countersteering movements.

This is it. This is what I put at the top of my list for the next physics update. Please focus here PD and give me some sense of life with the tires. I want the drama, I want to play in that narrow window of grip.

 

[Lord Protector]

Turn 9 interlagos, I can crank the wheel to the left while mashing the throttle and the gr4 McLaren doesn’t even flinch on RH tires. It used to be relatively easy to make the rear end step out on pretty much anything there so now it feels very weird, like it’s AWD.

Impossible with real life slick tires... that car has too low power

 

[Groundfish]

It's compensated by literally having not an once of oversteer at corner exit. You can press instantaneously on the throttle in 2nd gear and the car stays straight.

Very realistic. Maybe PD guys should try to drive a GT car once. Or at least watch an onboard cam from Mapelli driving the #563 huaracan if they think GT3 cars are so stable at acceleration and so unstable at braking.

Just sayin...

 

[gtpierre]

This is it. This is what I put at the top of my list for the next physics update. Please focus here PD and give me some sense of life with the tires. I want the drama, I want to play in that narrow window of grip.

not really my point, but with the current physics, you almost have to counter steer at braking and go flat out at the exit without caring about throttle control. I don't really see why they chose to do this.

Just sayin...

best driver out there. Didn't he crash there few years ago and had to go to the hospital ?

I have no doubt he knows GT3 cars oversteer in 2nd gear when you press full throttle out of a turn. The people actually making the game, not so much...

 

[BreakerOhio]

In real life it isn't that easy to combat understeer, a majority of novices struggle with it in real life high performance, cars come that way and you have to apply some weight transfers to drive out of exits the way old GTS made it too easy to do. It was over simplified I think acceptable for teaching and exposing gamers to it. In real life executing a power slide takes some practice, when you can do it it's gonna look easy, but watch videos of novices trying to learn, many stuggle and I've seen it myself at the tracks and autocross. It's not supposed to be as simple as GTS old physics make oversteering to be. You have to manage where the weight is over the tires to do oversteer on exits. I think many are feeling understeer on exit because unconsciously the old physics has taught them to respect throttle oversteer so much before. It served good to expose this to gamers. No longer in 1.39 is it that easy because in real life it isn't, otherwise people would be drifting spinning out left and right at high performance track days. Many want to and they mash the throttle and the car goes wide. The ones that I see usually spin happen on trail brake or tank spankers when they lift and get back on the throttle too suddenly. So many times at the tracks, people try to slide and they struggle they want to learn power oversteer because it does look cool, but many struggle even when coached. The drivers that are skilled at driving with oversteer exits make it look easier than it really is in real life. GTS old physics simplified this too much before 1.39 and allowed not much weight over the tires to matter as much as just throttle application to make the car rotate on exits. It was a mini game in throttle skill.

In real life the drivers that can exploit the cars nimbleness to navigate the courses are fastest in their class. Excessive oversteering is not fast, not to confuse .

 

[dabz343]

not really my point, but with the current physics, you almost have to counter steer at braking and go flat out at the exit without caring about throttle control. I don't really see why they chose to do this.

Whatever your point was, that video show how inputs become very critical on the edge of grip. This is imo--the SEX.

Right now, all the sims that I have driven, in rigs that cost as much as a new supra, all feel bland. Yes there are lots of forces, effects, particularly at the DD level--but I wish they would just take the condom off.

 

[breeminator]

I have no doubt he knows GT3 cars oversteer in 2nd gear when you press full throttle out of a turn. The people actually making the game, not so much...

Try the cars I mentioned, Gr.3 Beetle, M6, GT-R and C7, by going to FIA Nations Free Practice. If you can exit the hairpin and the final corner in 2nd by just slamming it to full throttle without wheelspin, please can you put up a video of it, and I'll do the same for it making the wheels spin so we can try to work out why we're seeing a difference.

 

[Groundfish]

I think it’s true that braking requires better technique now.
Trail braking is much more realistic with abs weak.
With default if you simply read the games description it tells you that in default mode some of the available braking is limited to provide grip for turning.
So abs default limits max braking one can apply.
I like weak abs better, but under this update it’s more challenging to get right-which I like better.
I feel acceleration out of corners has been dumbed down too much...It was silly before with too much slip at partial throttle though.
Now you just punch it.
If they combined this braking with an in between .38 .39 on throttle I think it would be more fun for better players.
Blending in throttle on exit doesn’t seem to apply right now in many cars and that’s a shame.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

This is--'leaving the door wide open' to your competitors...why would you NOT take great care of your most dedicated and loyal fans of your franchise?...Because of Asian culture? I don't buy it--perhaps it has more to do with how feedback has been orchestrated thus far from the FANS. Rants, tantrums, shenanigans outnumber the quality few--and the problem, if you want it addressed properly, may lie on both sides. Cheers to those that continue to bring value and jeers to those that just can't help themselves.

Actually the hardcore and loyal fans are probably a very low percentage of a games actual overall sales numbers. Most gamers buy a game, play it a few weeks or maybe even months, get bored with it and move on to the next latest and greatest.

This is probably more true based on how easily people tire of something in todays times versus a few decades ago.

The large AAA mainstream gaming studios are more interested in that new player having instant fun when they pick up the game and start playing rather than it all being about accurate to real life game play.

They make those sacrifices to realism for making it easier to play/drive for the masses that buy the game.

Basically this concept is backed up with looking at the number of of games that have been sold versus the amount of players still playing or the amount of players who never played sport mode which the game was based on online racing play.

Games like Forza and Gran Tourismo are actually seeking a different type of gamer than AC or PC Cars that gamers that have played years of the GTS style titles still face a fairly steep learning curve when playing these more involved sim titles.

Much easier for beginners to drive a car reasonably fast in the Forza, GTS games and this is where these studios are making their money, not on the hardcore types of racers.

 

[Groundfish]

In real life it isn't that easy to combat understeer, a majority of novices struggle with it in real life high performance, cars come that way and you have to apply some weight transfers to drive out of exits the way old GTS made it too easy to do. It was over simplified I think acceptable for teaching and exposing gamers to it. In real life executing a power slide takes some practice, when you can do it it's gonna look easy, but watch videos of novices trying to learn, many stuggle and I've seen it myself at the tracks and autocross. It's not supposed to be as simple as GTS old physics make oversteering to be. You have to manage where the weight is over the tires to do oversteer on exits. I think many are feeling understeer on exit because unconsciously the old physics has taught them to respect throttle oversteer so much before. It served good to expose this to gamers. No longer in 1.39 is it that easy because in real life it isn't, otherwise people would be drifting spinning out left and right at high performance track days. Many want to and they mash the throttle and the car goes wide. The ones that I see usually spin happen on trail brake or tank spankers when they lift and get back on the throttle too suddenly. So many times at the tracks, people try to slide and they struggle they want to learn power oversteer because it does look cool, but many struggle even when coached. The drivers that are skilled at driving with oversteer exits make it look easier than it really is in real life. GTS old physics simplified this too much before 1.39 and allowed not much weight over the tires to matter as much as just throttle application to make the car rotate on exits. It was a mini game in throttle skill.

In real life the drivers that can exploit the cars nimbleness to navigate the courses are fastest in their class. Excessive oversteering is not fast, not to confuse .

Great post!
This game is shaping a new generation of gamers indeed.
I like what @sdi_03 said...Seat time?
Bicycle seat don’t count!
Lmao

 

[zzz_pt]

Try the cars I mentioned, Gr.3 Beetle, M6, GT-R and C7, by going to FIA Nations Free Practice. If you can exit the hairpin and the final corner in 2nd by just slamming it to full throttle without wheelspin, please can you put up a video of it, and I'll do the same for it making the wheels spin so we can try to work out why we're seeing a difference.

I've been practicing around DT for a league I'm in and I can notice the crazy amount of understeer on that corner, on the hairpin before the chicane of death, T4 (I have to lift now with Softs) and the SS.

I could control the exit way better before 1.39. Now I can smash the throttle earlier but if I use the same line, I'll end up on the grass or the wall on the exit because there's too much understeer.

With tire wear this gets even worse ofc.

I find myself using 1st gear now imat the apex to turn the front a bit more to the inside so I can smash in the throttle faster and avoid understeering off track. But it's not enjoyable at all. It's like I'm driving an FF Corvette sometimes.

 

[dabz343]

In real life it isn't that easy to combat understeer, a majority of novices struggle with it in real life high performance, cars come that way and you have to apply some weight transfers to drive out of exits the way old GTS made it too easy to do. It was over simplified I think acceptable for teaching and exposing gamers to it. In real life executing a power slide takes some practice, when you can do it it's gonna look easy, but watch videos of novices trying to learn, many stuggle and I've seen it myself at the tracks and autocross. It's not supposed to be as simple as GTS old physics make oversteering to be. You have to manage where the weight is over the tires to do oversteer on exits. I think many are feeling understeer on exit because unconsciously the old physics has taught them to respect throttle oversteer so much before. It served good to expose this to gamers. No longer in 1.39 is it that easy because in real life it isn't, otherwise people would be drifting spinning out left and right at high performance track days. Many want to and they mash the throttle and the car goes wide. The ones that I see usually spin happen on trail brake or tank spankers when they lift and get back on the throttle too suddenly. So many times at the tracks, people try to slide and they struggle they want to learn power oversteer because it does look cool, but many struggle even when coached. The drivers that are skilled at driving with oversteer exits make it look easier than it really is in real life. GTS old physics simplified this too much before 1.39 and allowed not much weight over the tires to matter as much as just throttle application to make the car rotate on exits. It was a mini game in throttle skill.

In real life the drivers that can exploit the cars nimbleness to navigate the courses are fastest in their class. Excessive oversteering is not fast, not to confuse .

The sensation of grip and vehicle dynamics throughout the window of traction is what PD has to get right. Right now, GTS is game physics struggling to live up to real life. Btw, I'm faster with 1.39, but I'm using techniques that would kill me in real life.

But I understand that GTS has to make a game that is playable through a Dpad, and that's acceptable. It's who they are serving, thus realism nerds/enthusiasts will find alternatives...as they already have.

My final thoughts, enjoy the game. Understand that it is just a game, and it is not trying to be a simulator. It is trying to be accessible to all ages and talents, providing just enough entertainment to hold together a franchise. And honestly, it does a good job at keeping things simple. Just look at the crowd that it serves, it's reflected in the simplistic tuning section--down to the very basics...but that's ok, it's what the fans want...give me a slider that goes from fast to super fffaaasssstttt.

 

[zzz_pt]

But I understand that GTS has to make a game that is playable through a Dpad, and that's acceptable. It's who they are serving, thus realism nerds/enthusiasts will find alternatives...as they already have.

If this is true, PD should scrap the FIA and do like Forza, using pads on live events (which is an option but a bit ridiculous for a racing game IMO) and stop pretending to care about a decent, realistic and interesting eSports competition.

They can't have it both ways and they should listen to the people who are going / have been to the live events and reporting their insatisfaction with the changes that have been made and how negatively they impact a fair and transparent competition.