Pre-release GT5:Prologue Thread Firmware 2.17 mandatory for GT5:P? (and Pictures)

[Digital-Nitrate]

I really don't agree with that. If the AI was at a higher level of sophistication & you were comparing different AI programs, set up to perform in different ways, it would be true.

That was the point I was making... but there is also subjective opinions on what people prefer their AI opponents to be like... as evident by the many threads where people have made it quite clear that unlike you they feel the AI in GT4 is superior to Forza 1, and Forza 2 is also not without its long list of critics who find plenty to fault it for in regards to it AI... but many prefer it... it's subjective opinion based on a players preference.

Sure, if we all agreed that a game's AI must be as realistic as possible based on a specific type of driver, then yes, we can judge them objectively. The point is not everyone shares the same opinion, no matter how advanced an AI may be, on what they feel is the best type of AI to have. In fact, many have argued that they like arcade style rubber-band AI.

I would be happy if the AI in GT5 simply reached the level of Forza 1, but I hope it will be superior.

Many would say GT4 was already past the level of Forza 1, I included. Forza 2 is a better example, but these again are likely based on differences in our subjective opinions.


That said, even if GT5 has the exact same AI from GT4, which is rather safe to say it won't, people will have just as much control over the difficulty of each race as they do in GT4, and so prize cars will be as easy or as difficult as each player decides is how they want to play the game. I certainly see no reason to even suggest that it will be unreasonably difficult for online players to get the cars they want to use in online races... where the "real racing" is likely going to be found... thus yet another reason why many are not likely going to get all worked up over what the AI is like.

 

[Biggles]

Many would say GT4 was already past the level of Forza 1, I included.

DN: I'm totally amazed that anyone could think the AI in GT4 is superior to the AI in Forza 1. I played Forza for a long time before I tried GT4 & immediately enjoyed the driving experience in GT4 (partly due to the great G25 wheel), but was dismayed at the racing experience, because the AI was so poor (non-existant) in GT4.

Yes, the AI in Forza 1 is very unforgiving on the high difficulty settings & there is a tendency, before you really build your skills in the game, to get rear-ended on tight corners, but that's because the AI expects a high level of performance & is unable to react to over-braking - I suspect this is not unlike what would happen in a RL race. Regardless, there is no doubt that in Forza the AI cars react to what you do: for example, cut close on a corner & they go wide, go wide & they try to cut inside you. This is a whole level of sophistication above what happens in GT4.

As a result of this: in Forza I spent most of the time racing, whereas in GT4 (& the similarly AI-challenged EPR) I spend more time in Time attack mode.

 

[Dave A]

I'd say GT4's was worse than Forza 1's but Forzas wasn't that great, it wasn't as stuck to it's lines but it was way to agressive. The numer of times I've had an AI car swerve into mr rear quarter in Forza was pretty high. Good AI should be balanced, not sticking to a line is only one part of that, beingly overly agressive is a negative.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

All of these comments are just further support that opinions of AI are largely based on personal preference, priority, etc... and in some cases a less than entirely objective analysis... So again, there is no single type of AI that everyone will consider the best... which again was the original point.

• Multiple Optional AI User Settings = Better
  
  
• Online Racing Against Real Opponents = FTW.

 

[Biggles]

In Forza aside from occasionally smacking into you, AI cars also have an maddening ability to outbrake you on certain corners - IMO this represents "overly aggressive" & "over performing" AI. On the other hand, in GT4, AI cars tend to be "overly cautious" & "under-performing".

"Overly aggressive" or "over-performing" are opinions representing personal preference, but I honestly don't see how you can call the comparison of AI in GT4 & Forza 1 simply a matter of "personal preference". Fact: park your car in the middle of the racing line in GT4 & every single AI car behind you will come up & solidly rear-end you. In Forza the AI cars will manoeuver around you. That, for me is a most basic & "objective" indication of the AI.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

That's probably why I made sure to say "largely based on...". I didn't say it was entirely subjective, right? And more imporantly, whether you and I agree on what we like or prefer in our AI, and whether or not it is more realistic than others, that in no way means all others also prefer it... which again points to the differences of opinion people will have on AI regardless of how "accurate" it is.. or how "accurate" each of us think it is.

• Multiple Optional AI User Settings = Better
  
  
• Online Racing Against Real Opponents = FTW.

👍

 

[Kent]

I know I'm one of the few who have noticed this but I've found the differences between Forza1's AI and GT4's AI to be fairly limited.
Most specific to my observations/complaints is the fact that both sets of AI will ram you and push you off the road when you are next to them.
They just go from the center of the road to the outside (proper racing line) and in the process simply push you off the road (since you're running perfectly beside them in the middle of a pass).
It's always annoying and for me it is especially annoying since no Forza fans will admit that it even happens.

 

[RACECAR]

I know I'm one of the few who have noticed this but I've found the differences between Forza1's AI and GT4's AI to be fairly limited.
Most specific to my observations/complaints is the fact that both sets of AI will ram you and push you off the road when you are next to them.
They just go from the center of the road to the outside (proper racing line) and in the process simply push you off the road (since you're running perfectly beside them in the middle of a pass).
It's always annoying and for me it is especially annoying since no Forza fans will admit that it even happens.

I agree:tup:. They make out GT's AI (as well as other stuff)to be far worse then it really is.

 

[Dave A]

No GT's AI really is that bad, what's happening is that Forza's AI, particularly Forza 1's AI is being elevated to a position higher than it really was. Forza 2's I've found actually does adapt to how you drive, its quite clever imo, but it's still not the ideal type of AI for a racing simulator, it's still too agressive even when your racing clean.

 

[Biggles]

Well, I give up if people really insist that GT4's AI is basically equivalent to Forza 1's.

For me, a big part of the AI is the collision physics. In GT4 you can pretty much bump into other cars at will with little or nothing in the way of consequences. In Forza, bumping into other cars has consequences for the bumper & the bumpee. In tight racing this aspect is crucial, as it dictates how hard you can push in a given situation. In GT4 I feel like I'm cheating if I initiate any contact, because the collision physics simply allow you to bump & drive on. In Forza, going in tight with the AI on a corner means you really have to have position or you're likely to be punished. Again, it's not perfect, but it's significantly better & makes the racing feel much more realistic.

 

[RACECAR]

Well, I give up if people really insist that GT4's AI is basically equivalent to Forza 1's.

What are you talking about? Who insisted that GT4's AI is equivalent to Forza 1's? All I've seen is people state some detailed opinions based on their experiences with said games. Maybe a one or two people felt that way, but I don't see anywhere that they insisted it. And while I'm at it, Lets get back to GT5 and away from the ever so tiring "Forza vs GT" type debates.

 

[Tenacious D]

Fact: park your car in the middle of the racing line in GT4 & every single AI car behind you will come up & solidly rear-end you. In Forza the AI cars will manoeuver around you.

Actually I got tired of trying to one race with my chosen car in GT4 and decided to experiment. I parked my car in the middle of the track in front of the bots, half sideways in fact, and every single car drove around me. I did this more than once. In Forza, usually they will avoid you. My problem with Forza bots is that they're murderous little monsters. If they managed to get on a server, they'd be banned in a race or two. Forza 2 is a huge improvement, but they still have tantrums from time to time.

One thing I will say is that the bots in Forza 2 have "moods," in that they don't drive every race the same way. In fact, start a race, drive a few laps, restart it, and each time the bots will launch differently, and may even pass each other repeatedly. It almost seems like Turn 10 read my suggestions on the different factors of race driver personality and how they would relate to bot A.I. coding.

In the demo videos of Prologue, I've seen evidence for some of this humanization of the bots. It's pretty skimpy, but they were from real time races done at events like TGS. I'm not sure what Kaz and the lads are up to, but I'm thinking Prologue will be a huge step in the right direction.

 

[Earth]

Straight off the bat, I think that in terms of feature sets, Forza is ahead of us. They have more options, you can do basically anything. We take a different approach obviously - we try to concentrate on what are the core values for a racing game, and we try to elevate those standards up as high as we possibly can. I am having difficulty trying to explain the differences, but one way you can look at it is, you can buy a watch that is super multifunctional, but economical, or a watch that is reduced in functions, but premium - higher end.

If you don't want to read a long mindless rant just skip to the last sentence highlighted in red.

I've realized for sometime the Gran Turismo franchise is like this, and that's why the lack of some new features in GT5 hasn't surprised me.

Many were shocked when they saw inaccurate collision physics, no damage etc etc.

I wasn't, because after 4 Gran Turismo games I know what Kazunori wants in a race car game.

He wants to make a race car game that looks as realistic as possible, that gives you the closest feeling to driving a real car as possible. He wants to accomplish that by offering the most detailed cars and tracks possible. He wants to have at your fingertips a large variety of cars to drive because he is a car nut and would like to drive as many cars as possible. He wants you to experience it all, like how he wants to experience it all, drag racing, rally, Le Mans, Formula 1.

We are very fortunate a car nut like Kazunori Yamauchi is the head of PD.

What does Yamauchi think about things like damage etc? In my opinion, Yamauchi may blame car manufacturers etc etc whatever, but in my opinion I think Yamauchi honestly believes that physical damage to the cars just isn't that important to creating a driving simulator and should be put on the back burner. The low number of cars per race and the lack of online racing through the first 4 games shows how much Yamauchi thinks about the actual 'racing' part of his game.

Driving realistic accurate dream car on accurate realistic track > racing

He is far more concerned in providing the gamer high quality cars and tracks to drive their dream machines on then he is in adding little extras like a paint shop.

Which brings us back to his High Quality low feature watch and Low Quality High feature watch illustration. That perfectly shows his mindset. Damage, paint shops etc are considered features of low importance that aren't necessary in his 'premium' game. Feature's of high importance in Yamauchi's mind are realistic looking visuals and accurate recreations of both the cars and tracks, in other words, the 'backbone' as he called it.

Once he gets the core part of the game perfected, he says he will move on to features that are in his mind less important, features like damage and weather. He doesn't want to take time out of working on the backbone (the cars and tracks) and spend that precious time on extras like damage and weather. Later, but not now.


Project Gotham 4 developers spent a good deal of time creating weather effects for the game, and touted the weather effects as a selling point for the game. This will never be the case for a Kazunori game. A Yamauchi game is as follows, in order of importance:

<The Backbone>
1. Graphic realism and accuracy of the cars and tracks
2. Physics
3. Quanity of cars and tracks
4. AI - Added for GT5 due to 15 AI
<The Backbone>

5. Quanity of the races and Championships
6. Car performance customization

If Kazunori truly thought damage and a paint shop were important, I have no doubts they would have appeared in a GT game by now. That's why the AI has always been poor, it just hasn't been that important due to only 5 cars in previous GT games.

Enough rambling, I'm sure I've repeated some things and made mistakes

Gran Turismo is Gran Turismo, expect more of the same but better with a few extras thrown in. That is a good thing for me but it may not be for others

 

[unv412]

A Yamauchi game is as follows, in order of importance:

<The Backbone>
1. Graphic realism and accuracy of the cars and tracks
2. Physics
3. Quanity of cars and tracks
4. AI - Added for GT5 due to 15 AI
<The Backbone>

5. Quanity of the races and Championships
6. Car performance customization

]

A Yamaguchi came that UNV412 would like to buy is in order of importance:

<The Backbone>
1. Physics
2. Physics
3. Physics
4. Quanity of cars and tracks
5. Graphic realism and accuracy of the cars and tracks
6. AI - Added for GT5 due to 15 AI
<The Backbone>

That said if the last interview is anything to go by......then I need not worry too much at all ,as he did say the physics are differentiated enough to siut the most professional racer (said something about Michael Schuemaker would like it) to the average shmo.I cannot wait to find out!

 

[Dave A]

Well, I give up if people really insist that GT4's AI is basically equivalent to Forza 1's.

For me, a big part of the AI is the collision physics. In GT4 you can pretty much bump into other cars at will with little or nothing in the way of consequences. In Forza, bumping into other cars has consequences for the bumper & the bumpee. In tight racing this aspect is crucial, as it dictates how hard you can push in a given situation. In GT4 I feel like I'm cheating if I initiate any contact, because the collision physics simply allow you to bump & drive on. In Forza, going in tight with the AI on a corner means you really have to have position or you're likely to be punished. Again, it's not perfect, but it's significantly better & makes the racing feel much more realistic.

Collision physics and AI are not the same thing, one is artificial inteligence, one is virtual physics. Having physics that penalise you for contact does not mean the AI is better or worse than what the AI would be with rubber band like collision physics. I agree that good collision physics is nice, but it is not what were discussing here. The flip side is that you really need AI that doesn't hit either deliberately or because it doesn't recognise your there for decent collision physics to work. In Forza I foud cars ramming me far to ofter, they were either trying to spin me out or they didn't know I was there, which is AI related, and that does not make for a great race.

 

[Biggles]

What are you talking about? Who insisted that GT4's AI is equivalent to Forza 1's? All I've seen is people state some detailed opinions based on their experiences with said games.

Some contributors here definitely do insist that GT4's AI is equivalent or better than Forza's.

Actually I got tired of trying to one race with my chosen car in GT4 and decided to experiment. I parked my car in the middle of the track in front of the bots, half sideways in fact, and every single car drove around me.

I'll try it & see...

My problem with Forza bots is that they're murderous little monsters.

In Forza I foud cars ramming me far to ofter, they were either trying to spin me out or they didn't know I was there, which is AI related, and that does not make for a great race.

Forza bots seem to rear-end you if you brake too heavily before a corner. They also bump you if you don't keep your speed up thru the corner = spin out, which is the "realistic" collision physics, but admittedly very frustrating. I don't think Forza bots "try" to bump you, I think they are programmed (certainly at the higher difficulty levels) to expect very good driving & bump you when you when you don't perform up to this level. This obviously would happen to some degree IRL: if I jumped into a professional race, the other drivers would end up running into me because I wouldn't drive as they expect: not the same as trying to hit me or "not knowing I'm there".

I wonder if attitudes to this are partly based on personal expectations: I played Forza for a long time before I played GT4, so I kind-of accepted the aggressive AI as the "norm". I do believe it leads to very intense, difficult racing which punishes any "mistake", which can be very frustrating. In comparison the racing in GT4 is much more forgiving. On the other hand the actual driving experience is more convincing in GT4.

Forza: racing game
GT4: driving game

My "backbone" priorities for GT5:
Physics
Graphics
AI (& "collision physics")
Quantity of tracks
Quantity of cars

 

[Kent]

Ok... With all the arguing over AI aside, let me ask a new question.

What are the chances of us seeing several Ferraris in GT5?

More specifically, the F50, F40, 355, and other well known Ferraris

I certainly don't expect to see great new cars like the F430 Scuderia but I'd love to see some of the well known cars that aren't listed or shown in any of the material relating to GT5.

Oh, another thought...
What are the chances of us seeing a Tuner Hall that will allow full modifications for cars known to be tuned by said tuner, ie the Amuse Supra and the Mine's Evo 8?

 

[KSaiyu]

Sorry I don't think I got through: my point was, how can I get my hands on prologue without waiting 3 months for the European release?

But you're right, things are likely to change till December.

RUI

Unfortunately, this doesn't look like changing for the forseeable future - it is the result of a lawsuit and there is no way around it unless you get someone to post it to you either from Japan or from a county they ship too. Or you could look on Ebay once it releases.

 

[Jedi2016]

Forza bots seem to rear-end you if you brake too heavily before a corner. They also bump you if you don't keep your speed up thru the corner = spin out, which is the "realistic" collision physics, but admittedly very frustrating. I don't think Forza bots "try" to bump you, I think they are programmed (certainly at the higher difficulty levels) to expect very good driving & bump you when you when you don't perform up to this level. This obviously would happen to some degree IRL: if I jumped into a professional race, the other drivers would end up running into me because I wouldn't drive as they expect: not the same as trying to hit me or "not knowing I'm there".

That's one thing I've been trying to say for a long time now, and no one seems to pay attention. Even the best AI system in the world can't work around a human driver who behaves in an unpredictable fashion. Brake too early or too hard, and the AI will rear-end you. That doesn't mean the AI is stupid. And the AI isn't going to dodge out of the way when you do something crazy like not stopping for a corner and slamming into them while they're trying to pass on the outside.. they can't stop YOU from hitting THEM. And they're not going to drive off the track just to avoid a collision. People are looking at things like this in the videos that have been released, and they're saying the AI "sucks", when in fact most of the blame lies with the player. A human player will make some of the same mistakes that the AI makes. Do you expect a human opponent to kindly move out of your way, leave the track, or slow down and lose his position, just because you're driving like a maniac? Of course not. And would a human opponent be able to move out of your way to avoid you, coming from the rear quarter panel? He can't even see you there. Don't expect the AI to do these things, either.

You people want to see really bad AI? Go back and play GT1/2 again. And then come back here with a straight face and tell me the AI hasn't improved at all since then.

I don't think anyone here is in a position to judge the AI in GT5P, except for the VERY few people who have actually played it at the shows. The rest of us haven't played it at all, and I don't think we're able to judge a damn thing from the videos.

 

[Biggles]

That's one thing I've been trying to say for a long time now, and no one seems to pay attention. Even the best AI system in the world can't work around a human driver who behaves in an unpredictable fashion. Brake too early or too hard, and the AI will rear-end you. That doesn't mean the AI is stupid. And the AI isn't going to dodge out of the way when you do something crazy like not stopping for a corner and slamming into them while they're trying to pass on the outside.. they can't stop YOU from hitting THEM. And they're not going to drive off the track just to avoid a collision. People are looking at things like this in the videos that have been released, and they're saying the AI "sucks", when in fact most of the blame lies with the player. A human player will make some of the same mistakes that the AI makes. Do you expect a human opponent to kindly move out of your way, leave the track, or slow down and lose his position, just because you're driving like a maniac? Of course not. And would a human opponent be able to move out of your way to avoid you, coming from the rear quarter panel? He can't even see you there. Don't expect the AI to do these things, either.

You people want to see really bad AI? Go back and play GT1/2 again. And then come back here with a straight face and tell me the AI hasn't improved at all since then.

I don't think anyone here is in a position to judge the AI in GT5P, except for the VERY few people who have actually played it at the shows. The rest of us haven't played it at all, and I don't think we're able to judge a damn thing from the videos.

Does that mean you agree with me? :

I suspect IRL racing everything is very finely balanced: cars are often inches from each other & any driver, doing anything unexpected, results in contact. The difference is, IRL significant contact often results in race-ending damage, which is an incentive to drive somewhat more cautiously. In a game you can just hit the re-start button. 👍

 

[Jedi2016]

Does that mean you agree with me? :

I don't know, what were you saying? LOL I was just pointing out that GT's AI isn't nearly as bad as the naysayers claim, and that there's more to AI than whether or not a car will avoid hitting you when you do something stupid. I haven't played much of the Forza games, but from what I have played, many of the same flaws in GT's AI also exist in Forza. Especially the flaws that most people complain the loudest about.

I suspect IRL racing everything is very finely balanced: cars are often inches from each other & any driver, doing anything unexpected, results in contact. The difference is, IRL significant contact often results in race-ending damage, which is an incentive to drive somewhat more cautiously. In a game you can just hit the re-start button. 👍

I think that's where Kaz is drawing the damage line.. that's what REAL damage would be like in a racing game, and it's something that, to my knowledge, hasn't been done yet. People can whine all they want about how GT doesn't have damage, but if Kaz puts REAL damage in the game, where a single minor mistake can cost you the race and thousands of dollars in repair fees, then people will be screaming just as loudly that they should turn the damage off. Most of the people complaining want cosmetic damage, not real damage. And cosmetic damage is worthless, IMO.

IRL racing is definitely very finely balanced. As you said, it's not uncommon for cars to run the track inches from each other's bumper, especially in NASCAR. That sort of balance and control is the sign of a professional driver who knows what he's doing, and knows exactly what will happen when he or the other driver does something unexpected. I've seen plenty of races, both GT and NASCAR, where a driver will sit inches behind another car for a dozen laps, waiting for the lead car to make the tiniest of mistakes, and then taking advantage of it when it finally happens. I've done it myself in GT, hugging behind a particularly tricky opponent until the right time to make a move. And I don't always make the pass when I try. But rarely has that been the fault of the AI driver.

 

[Jedi2016]

Crap, forgot what I came here to post in the first place...

I just read a news post (i.e. posted on a board from a site I've never heard of) advertising the release of the GT5P demo on 10/24. They didn't mention territory, so I'm assuming this is the Japanese demo they're talking about?

 

[Dave A]

Forza bots seem to rear-end you if you brake too heavily before a corner. They also bump you if you don't keep your speed up thru the corner = spin out, which is the "realistic" collision physics, but admittedly very frustrating. I don't think Forza bots "try" to bump you, I think they are programmed (certainly at the higher difficulty levels) to expect very good driving & bump you when you when you don't perform up to this level. This obviously would happen to some degree IRL: if I jumped into a professional race, the other drivers would end up running into me because I wouldn't drive as they expect: not the same as trying to hit me or "not knowing I'm there".

I wonder if attitudes to this are partly based on personal expectations: I played Forza for a long time before I played GT4, so I kind-of accepted the aggressive AI as the "norm". I do believe it leads to very intense, difficult racing which punishes any "mistake", which can be very frustrating. In comparison the racing in GT4 is much more forgiving. On the other hand the actual driving experience is more convincing in GT4.

Forza: racing game
GT4: driving game

My "backbone" priorities for GT5:
Physics
Graphics
AI (& "collision physics")
Quantity of tracks
Quantity of cars

I have had the bots in forza 1 bumping my rear quarters going down long straights, it wasn't just coming upto or going around corners. With regards to your comment about what your used to, that makes sense, but overly agressive AI is just as bad as AI that doesn't know your there. The end result is the same, the AI cars bump into you a lot. With larger grids, overly agressive, or overly stupid AI will be magnified. Whichever AI you preferred, GT4's or Forza 1's, I hope GT5's is a lot better than both, because with 16 cars per race, both of thoes AI codes will frustrate the hell out of me.

I'd agree with your backbone of priorities for GT5, with the exception of graphics, and I'd throw more indepth customisation in there too.

 

[Biggles]

I've seen plenty of races, both GT and NASCAR, where a driver will sit inches behind another car for a dozen laps, waiting for the lead car to make the tiniest of mistakes, and then taking advantage of it when it finally happens. I've done it myself in GT, hugging behind a particularly tricky opponent until the right time to make a move. And I don't always make the pass when I try. But rarely has that been the fault of the AI driver.

Exactly, that's racing!

IRL races are more than just 3 laps, so patience is key. The trouble in ALL the racing games I've tried, is that if you get caught behind a slower car at the beginning of a race, you are not able to catch the leaders later. This means you have to move aggressively early on, with all the bumping & squeezing that entails. Winning a race tends to mean learning the AI patterns in the first few turns of the race & exploiting them. The other requirement for good AI, is that it SHOULD make occasional, unpredictable mistakes: realism would dictate you wait for the mistake & then make your move, rather than barging & banging through regardless.

 

[RACECAR]

Speaking of racing(this is probably off-topic), With there now being the presence of one of the very well known ovals, Do you guys thnik that 200 or 300 laps is possible and that with the improved AI, that B-spec mode(or B-spec "bob" as most have reffered it) might be a much better driver now? I imagine it'll be awesome for this to happen as it would drive more realistically and when switching to b-Spec mode, it would be like a driver change with your driver coming out of the car and bob getting in.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Winning a race tends to mean learning the AI patterns in the first few turns of the race & exploiting them.

Which is also what experienced and talented race drivers do in real life... although obviously not as easily or as quickly.

The other requirement for good AI, is that it SHOULD make occasional, unpredictable mistakes.

See, now this is a prime example of where you now are in the region of personal opinion based on subjective and interpretive data... for instance, there are some race car drivers famous for being unbelievably consistent, and others famous for being unbelievably inconsistent... just where do you draw the line and how much variety is ALWAYS going to be a personal preference and not an objective opinion everyone can agree on.

The fact that you continue to argue against those that do not agree with you that the AI in Forza 1 is better than GT4 just goes on to show how personal preference plays a far greater role in how people judge the quality of AI, and thus why there will never be an AI in any game that will satisfy everyone and that everyone will agree it is the best... and why we will always see lengthy threads where people will constantly argue over which game they "think" has better AI than another. It's like argueing over which driving game is the best driving game.

Once again, the best solution is for games to offer players multiple options and setting for the AI so each person can select the AI they feel is the best. It would also allow players to have more variety by trying different types and styles of AI at different times.

Maybe one day you'll want an arcade like exaggerated rubber band AI so that throughout the race the AI will always be right there with you... maybe another day you want really aggressive AI... maybe another day you want AI that has more unpredictable driving styles... maybe another day you might want an AI that is near perfect in its racing lines and technique.

Options and choices are never a bad thing except for people who have a hard time making a choice, and that feel there is only one "proper" AI and that developers should not only make it, but also force everyone to use it by not offering any alternative options and settings.

And also once again, another great solution to what you feel is poor AI is to race online against real drivers....

• Multiple Optional AI User Settings = Better
  
  
• Online Racing Against Real Opponents = FTW.

👍👍

 

[Maven]

Many were shocked when they saw inaccurate collision physics, no damage etc etc.

Are you kidding? I'm pretty sure that it took more than a year to properly program those bouncing traffic cones!!

 

[Tenacious D]

Forza bots seem to rear-end you if you brake too heavily before a corner. They also bump you if you don't keep your speed up thru the corner = spin out, which is the "realistic" collision physics, but admittedly very frustrating. I don't think Forza bots "try" to bump you, I think they are programmed (certainly at the higher difficulty levels) to expect very good driving & bump you when you when you don't perform up to this level.

I have to tell you that I've seen the Forza 1 bots do some incredible things to deliberately take me out, from flat out STOPPING in the shadows of Superspeedway's straightaway to one car slamming on it's brakes in front of me to bash my nose while another rams me from behind. That's actually some amazing A.I. right there, where cars will gang up on me. However, that sort of thing belongs in Twisted Metal, not a "racing simulator."

Ok... With all the arguing over AI aside, let me ask a new question.

What are the chances of us seeing several Ferraris in GT5?

More specifically, the F50, F40, 355, and other well known Ferraris

I certainly don't expect to see great new cars like the F430 Scuderia but I'd love to see some of the well known cars that aren't listed or shown in any of the material relating to GT5.

Oh, another thought...
What are the chances of us seeing a Tuner Hall that will allow full modifications for cars known to be tuned by said tuner, ie the Amuse Supra and the Mine's Evo 8?

For the Ferraris, I'd say the chance is very good. I think Kaz-dono is a fan of 355 Challenge, and that's my favorite stallion so I'm crossing my fingers that it's in the car list.

As for Tuner Village offering makeovers, I think there's a very good chance of that as well. With Forza's racing conversion making such a huge splash on the racing game scene, this might be Kaz's substitute in GT5. I'm still hoping he'll surprise us with a full user racing conversion a la Forza, as he has given us lots of goodies before, but we'll just have to wait until we pop in the Blu-ray disc to see.

Man, the thought of opening that Gran Turismo 5 package gives me shivers! But... I'll have to settle for firing up Forza 2 for now, sigh...

 

[Biggles]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
Winning a race tends to mean learning the AI patterns in the first few turns of the race & exploiting them.
Which is also what experienced and talented race drivers do in real life... although obviously not as easily or as quickly.

I find the AI patterns in Forza more varied & unpredictable than in GT4 & therefore, more challenging.

Quote:
The other requirement for good AI, is that it SHOULD make occasional, unpredictable mistakes.
See, now this is a prime example of where you now are in the region of personal opinion based on subjective and interpretive data... for instance, there are some race car drivers famous for being unbelievably consistent, and others famous for being unbelievably inconsistent... just where do you draw the line and how much variety is ALWAYS going to be a personal preference and not an objective opinion everyone can agree on.

Yes, I agree, that is a subjective opinion.

The fact that you continue to argue against those that do not agree with you that the AI in Forza 1 is better than GT4 just goes on to show how personal preference plays a far greater role in how people judge the quality of AI, and thus why there will never be an AI in any game that will satisfy everyone and that everyone will agree it is the best... and why we will always see lengthy threads where people will constantly argue over which game they "think" has better AI than another. It's like argueing over which driving game is the best driving game.

I disagree I think Forza has better AI objectively. But GT4 is better in other areas, making an opinion on which is the better game a more subjective one.

Having many options is, of course, the best option. However, I would settle for one "biggles-approved" option. 👍

 

[Biggles]

I have to tell you that I've seen the Forza 1 bots do some incredible things to deliberately take me out, from flat out STOPPING in the shadows of Superspeedway's straightaway to one car slamming on it's brakes in front of me to bash my nose while another rams me from behind. That's actually some amazing A.I. right there, where cars will gang up on me. However, that sort of thing belongs in Twisted Metal, not a "racing simulator."

I have to say, I played Forza 1 for two years & never experienced any of these bizarre behaviors you're describing. Maybe you have some strange hybrid of Forza & Twisted Metal.