Presidential Election: 2012

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Even with the foresight and questioning (supposedly) of the more sinister part of the bill he signs it...

That should be important enough for anyone to make a real judgement call. However, President after President you can be assured this will happen.
 
I was confused by the following sentence in FK's article quote:

including a controversial component that would allow the military to indefinitely detain terror suspects, including American citizens arrested in the United States, without charge.

Does this mean that anyone being suspected of terroristic action can be arrested, without those performing the arresting action have any evidence to believe that person actually is a terrorist?

I might've completely mis-read the article, but it sounds a little bit scary...
 
I was confused by the following sentence in FK's article quote:



Does this mean that anyone being suspected of terroristic action can be arrested, without those performing the arresting action have any evidence to believe that person actually is a terrorist?

I might've completely mis-read the article, but it sounds a little bit scary...
You understand our dilemma.

America is not, nor has it ever been, immune to the weaknesses of men. We have never actually been 'great'.
Strong men don't have weaknesses. Unfortunately, people with God-complexes are often intellectually weak, and those are the types of people who have filled our political ranks for decades. Weak, pathetic people. Many of our founding fathers were strong, principled people who did what they did because it needed to be done, not because they wanted to do it. Most of the people these days who are strong like that don't have any time to organize a campaign because they're too busy doing what needs to be done.
 
Strong men don't have weaknesses. Unfortunately, people with God-complexes are often intellectually weak, and those are the types of people who have filled our political ranks for decades. Weak, pathetic people.


Many of our founding fathers were strong, principled people who did what they did because it needed to be done, not because they wanted to do it. Most of the people these days who are strong like that don't have any time to organize a campaign because they're too busy doing what needs to be done.


:odd:


Right, enslaving Africans and committing genocide against the native Americans had to be done, because what is best for us is what's best...


This country is founded on treason against humanity.
 
You understand our dilemma.

Wow, this makes Obama sound like Geert Wilders in Holland although this may be a very extreme comparison. Geert Wilders led a party a few years ago that wanted to basically exclude every form of a muslim out of Holland because of their religion. Wilders also wanted to freely arrest every muslim in the case where was known that that particular religious person actually was a terrorist.

How is anyone going to be able to tell how anyone connected to islam is a potential terrorist? "Well we better prevent them from exploding so we better lock 'em up!"

I thought Wilders was a nuttcase, but I'd never thought Obama would actually pass a similar legislation in which people are arrested without any form of charge. I'd be damned!
 
sach
Right, enslaving Africans and committing genocide against the native Americans had to be done, because what is best for us is what's best...


This country is founded on treason against humanity.

Incorrect.

Treason against humanity occurred, but it is not what this country is founded on. The foundation of America is human rights. It took us a while to incorporate rights for everyone (eg: those with African heritage, or women, and we still struggle with homosexuals), but what makes America great is our constitution and especially the bill of rights. When it comes to some specific issues, we're more true to the bill of rights our country was founded on today than we were when those rights were written.
 
Incorrect.

Treason against humanity occurred, but it is not what this country is founded on. The foundation of America is human rights. It took us a while to incorporate rights for everyone (eg: those with African heritage, or women, and we still struggle with homosexuals), but what makes America great is our constitution and especially the bill of rights. When it comes to some specific issues, we're more true to the bill of rights our country was founded on today than we were when those rights were written.



No, it is not founded on rights for everyone. It is founded on leaving one oppressive part of the world to go to another where we oppressed and destroyed its native people, claiming that which did not belong to us as our own, only later to travel to a different part of the world and steal human beings from their own homeland, their families, to rape their women, kill their children, turn them into slaves, and later tell them that they don't belong in the country we brought them to.

Laws regarding women and African Americans did not change because "we came to our senses". Had those oppressed people not given their own lives and stood in our way, nothing would have changed. 'We' had no intention of doing anything except prospering ourselves (white men) and keeping things going well for us for as long as possible. This is still exactly how it is. They only bend as much as they are forced to.

That you coin the 'Bill of Rights' while simultaneously enslaving and exterminating other races of people, stealing every God-given right they have to be who, and where they are, is as hypocritical and offensive as anything can be. And that doesn't include women's rights.


The fact that lobbyists, rather than the American people, elect the 'officials' in this country is of absolutely no surprise. It's in our blood. American corporations are given legal rights to be human beings...? That's our law because politicians saw that it was a means to an advantageous end. American corporations continue our history through the exploitation of weaker peoples, just not within our borders. They do the same to us within them through other means.
 
No, it is not founded on rights for everyone. It is founded on leaving one oppressive part of the world to go to another where we oppressed and destroyed its native people

You're confusing events which occurred at a similar time with founding principles.

If you want to understand what our country was founded on, you should read the founding documents and nothing else. If you want to understand the failings of the people who founded our nation, that's another story.

This nation was founded on the founding documents - the constitution and declaration of independence. Whatever else happened is irrelevant to its foundations. Feel free to criticize the people of the time all you want, but nothing that you have said is responsible for our nation or the principles it is founded upon.
 
I'm not confusing things at all. I'm saying the founding principles were all talk, no action.


Talk is cheap, even when it's worded well in a fancy historical document. If you don't actually observe it, it's worthless.


And nations aren't founded on the writings on pieces of paper, because that's all that document truly is. Nations are founded on the actions of their people.
 
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No, it is not founded on rights for everyone. It is founded on leaving one oppressive part of the world to go to another where we oppressed and destroyed its native people, claiming that which did not belong to us as our own, only later to travel to a different part of the world and steal human beings from their own homeland, their families, to rape their women, kill their children, turn them into slaves, and later tell them that they don't belong in the country we brought them to.
Either I misunderstand what you are saying, or you misunderstand history.

None of the founding fathers left somewhere and came here and started a revolution. This country was founded almost 300 years after Columbus alerted Europe to the existence of this continent. Colonies were a very early solution to over-population in Europe, and a convenient place for those who disagreed with those in power to flee to. The founders were born here. It is true that this country did go on to treat the native American people horribly, but they didn't kill them so they could form a country. Similarly, we didn't choose to go get slaves from Africa after the country was founded. The slave trade was inherited by our European colonizers. There was no later. It was already being done. We did not invent slavery or begin the native killing expansion. If that was just a USA thing then South and Central America would look very different today. Please note, I am not justifying any of the actions.

Now, with the historical facts corrected.

That you coin the 'Bill of Rights' while simultaneously enslaving and exterminating other races of people, stealing every God-given right they have to be who, and where they are, is as hypocritical and offensive as anything can be. And that doesn't include women's rights.
I wonder, are you aware of the debates regarding slavery that went on before the US Constitution was written? Do you realize that in many instances and for many issues there were situations of abstained votes or topics that were left for later because the choice was deal with it later or have no country? Even in the decision to declare independence and go to war with England certain members were absent from voting because they wanted independence but didn't want war to come to their colony/state that had so far avoided a military presence. There were things done in order to prevent a Civil War before there was a country to be split.

Does that make it OK? No. But did our founding fathers selfishly and hypocritically ignore the situation? No.

America is not, nor has it ever been, immune to the weaknesses of men. We have never actually been 'great'.
Your first sentence, I agree with. In fact, that very notion is why our founding fathers wrote the Constitution the way they did, so that the weaknesses of men in government should be prevented from gaining too much power. See, these men you refer to as weak hypocrites and speak poorly of were so aware of that nature in all men, that they legally limited themselves from making things any worse than it was. THAT is what this country was founded on. It is a concept that has been lost many times over, and our own interest took precedent over rights many, many times. But those principles are no less important and it is why many of us argue in favor of them being the basis for how this country is run. To ignore their importance and derail talk of following them today because you have a hair up your butt about the weaknesses of the men who made them into law and founding principles is a bit ridiculous, and quite frankly I find it to be missing the importance of changing things today so you can rant about something you can't change from the past.

As for this country never being great: I guess that even though you hated the way we treated people in the past you find the actions that ended the legal backing for those atrocities to also not be great? I am assuming, by your language, that you are from the US. I have to wonder, are you angry about the actions of men from generations ago? And do you always look at someone's mistakes and achievements and only credit them for their mistakes? Is praise for achievement only reserved for the non-existent perfect person?

but I'd never thought Obama would actually pass a similar legislation in which people are arrested without any form of charge. I'd be damned!
Remember how many of us said all those people who thought he would bring hope and change were in for a rude awakening? If you have missed all of his corporatist crony actions up to now then I guess this is your wake up call. Obama is no different than Bush. The only good thing I can see coming from the NDAA is that of everyone running for president, only Ron Paul has spoken out against it. I hope it gets brought up in debates going forward because I don't even think Santorum's evangelical bigot followers can support him if he supports this.

But then, I didn't think anyone could actually support the Patriot Act.
 
I'm not confusing things at all. I'm saying the founding principles were all talk, no action.

Lots of action, just not as much action as you or I would have liked. To say that the US took no action to back up their constitution is beyond ridiculous.


And nations aren't founded on the writings on pieces of paper, because that's all that document truly is. Nations are founded on the actions of their people.

The US was founded on a philosophy that was described in detail for you on a piece of paper. That paper is responsible and the philosophy it represents is responsible for everything this country stands for... not everything it is, mind you, but everything it stands for.
 
The US was founded on a philosophy that was described in detail for you on a piece of paper. That paper is responsible and the philosophy it represents is responsible for everything this country stands for... not everything it is, mind you, but everything it stands for.


Actions speak louder than "stands for". That's my point. I have military in my family, and I know that people have done remarkable things to demonstrate that they believe in the Constitution and our country. I am not for a second talking down on their actions. And to address the other poster, they are not who I am discussing.



But this country you see today was built over many years by weak-moraled white men who abused their ability to have power and influence over other people, and that is all there is to it. Did the demand for equality shape those things to a large degree? Yes. When you are dealing with a society, you have to bend, and they do. They'll even give some people their day in the sun, but they only ever bend as far as they are forced to, or as far as it is advantageous to do so. At times, they have been forced to do so.

When you have nearly 400 million people and the rest of the world watching you via technological advancements (media, internet, etc.), you bend a hell of a lot further than you do when you are an army general with rifles and cannons facing a handful of native Americans with arrows and knives. Likewise, when there are only a million or so people in the country, you don't consider entertaining the bold groups who are angry that you treat women with no respect the same way you would when the entire world is watching or angry over that matter, calling for you to step up the standard of morality/equality, etc.



I don't discredit anyone who has accomplished something in the name of the Constitution or American freedom, but to say that this country is truly "founded" on the principles in the Bill of Rights, etc., is not an accurate statement. A nation becomes 'great' in our world by prospering, and we prospered by conquering unjustly the same way that many other nations have also done throughout history. If you deny that, you need to open your eyes. We are not some country that "does it right".

America does not set the standard for moral dignity, quite the contrary. Who massacred the native Americans at Sitting Bull? The American army. Who enslaved African Americans and kept them as slaves? The American Government. Who detained the Japanese on our own soil and only recently admitted this? The U.S. government. The list goes on and on, countless atrocities carried out in the name of keeping America on top or prospering those with the advantage, and which are completely contrary to the ideas set forth in the Bill of Rights. Beautifully idealized documents can be just as cheap as any other form of talk, actions are what decide things and reveal the truth.

The Constitution has not made us great. Economic prosperity, technological advancement, and the exploitation of other people and cultures without reprimand has built up what you see today. And frankly our society is not filled with patriotic people, it's filled with spoiled people who are most angry when you take away their luxuries.
 
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The founders were born here. It is true that this country did go on to treat the native American people horribly, but they didn't kill them so they could form a country.


They took what they wanted, though it did not belong to them. Western expansion has been immense in the construction of this country. You could say that it was one of the things our economy and prosperity has been founded on, and it was acquired through the slaughter of the people who possessed it.


Similarly, we didn't choose to go get slaves from Africa after the country was founded. The slave trade was inherited by our European colonizers. There was no later. It was already being done. We did not invent slavery or begin the native killing expansion.


Precisely. "Already being done...", at the time the Constitution was signed.


See, these men you refer to as weak hypocrites and speak poorly of were so aware of that nature in all men, that they legally limited themselves from making things any worse than it was. THAT is what this country was founded on.


George Washington owned slaves. That he could endorse that document at the same time is hypocrisy.


It is a concept that has been lost many times over, and our own interest took precedent over rights many, many times.


And here's where my issue stems from. The document is fine. It details man admitting that there is, and should be, moral standards of living. Yet that is the evidence of a human idea, not an American one. Despite that, we want to take credit for being the most equal country, etc., when in fact our actions have never been consistently so, and have most often been contrary. The American ideology is a load of hogwash, and it rears its ugly head every election year.



But those principles are no less important and it is why many of us argue in favor of them being the basis for how this country is run. To ignore their importance and derail talk of following them today because you have a hair up your butt about the weaknesses of the men who made them into law and founding principles is a bit ridiculous, and quite frankly I find it to be missing the importance of changing things today so you can rant about something you can't change from the past.


I would never suggest not following those principles, and I did not do so. And I do things to make changes for the better in the ways that I can. I affect those with whom I can have an exchange. I would like to know what you are doing to change this country? Are you voting? Will you change the country by voting for someone that lobbyists have appointed in the name of their own interests?


As for this country never being great: I guess that even though you hated the way we treated people in the past you find the actions that ended the legal backing for those atrocities to also not be great? I am assuming, by your language, that you are from the US. I have to wonder, are you angry about the actions of men from generations ago? And do you always look at someone's mistakes and achievements and only credit them for their mistakes? Is praise for achievement only reserved for the non-existent perfect person?


Again, I'm referring to the American ideology. First of all, I have a problem with creating any "us compared to them" mentality. A perfect example, "The greatest country in the world...", more utter hogwash. The fact is that we are not a country of its own people either. We are facing the problems we have today because people don't participate politically, the voice of the people is not reflected in its country's ambassadorial and economic relations with the rest of the world, and our economy and social structure is overrun by the ideals and profiteering of corporations and immensely rich men, corporate monoliths that our government created in an act of treason against its own people when it gave them the rights of human beings.
 
Sach
I do things to make changes for the better in the ways that I can. I affect those with whom I can have an exchange. I would like to know what you are doing to change this country? Are you voting? Will you change the country by voting for someone that lobbyists have appointed in the name of their own interests?
Hold the phone... Without diving into the discussion I take issue with this statement.
It really sounds like you're getting on a high horse about changing the country, and even asking others what they're doing, without so much as a single word to what you're supposedly doing.
"I affect those with whom I have an exchange" is pretty unspecific and doesn't even mean you're doing anything, just that you think you might be through conversation. Sorry, that's just nowhere near enough of a statement or supposed deed to be calling people out over.

our economy and social structure is overrun by the ideals and profiteering of corporations and immensely rich men, corporate monoliths that our government created in an act of treason against its own people when it gave them the rights of human beings.
Explain.

The Constitution has not made us great. Economic prosperity, technological advancement, and the exploitation of other people and cultures without reprimand has built up what you see today. And frankly our society is not filled with patriotic people, it's filled with spoiled people who are most angry when you take away their luxuries.
In that sentence you can see why for some of it.
But tell me, what people on this earth do not get angry when "luxuries" are taken away? Also, what are you calling "luxuries"?
 
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Hold the phone... Without diving into the discussion I take issue with this statement.
It really sounds like you're getting on a high horse about changing the country, and even asking others what they're doing, without so much as a single word to what you're supposedly doing.
"I affect those with whom I have an exchange" is pretty unspecific and doesn't even mean you're doing anything, just that you think you might be through conversation. Sorry, that's just nowhere near enough of a statement or supposed deed to be calling people out over.



I don't do things based on the Constitution or American ideology. I act in the name of humanity and I don't need a document to confirm for me that there are moral standards by which I am called to abide. I am not a political figure, and as such I do not have a means to influence Congress in a remarkable way as an individual. And you are mistaken to think I am on a high horse about changing the country. I have not once suggested this.

The statement was made as a response to his suggestion that I am ignoring the ideals of the Constitution. I demonstrated that I am not, and that I participate in humanitarian behavior. I would say that calling out politicians on their rhetorical hypocrisy, that their very actions insult the ideas set forth in the Constitution, is an action. I also feel that it is very important for the people of the most (debatable) currently influential country on the globe to look through the lens of humanity, and not a flawed and tainted American ideology.



"our economy and social structure is overrun by the ideals and profiteering of corporations and immensely rich men, corporate monoliths that our government created in an act of treason against its own people when it gave them the rights of human beings."

Explain.


Honestly, I'm about done with this discussion for the evening. I also find it hard to believe that this needs any explaining. :odd: Ask yourself: What fuels a political campaign? What does it require to sustain itself? And where does that (money) come from? And on what conditions?
 
This nation was founded on the founding documents - the constitution and declaration of independence. Whatever else happened is irrelevant to its foundations. Feel free to criticize the people of the time all you want, but nothing that you have said is responsible for our nation or the principles it is founded upon.

...founding fathers ring a bell? You are removing a group of morally destitute men's work from the group of morally destitute men, Plato would suggest not doing that. They were bad people, and their document reflects it.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
 
I don't do things based on the Constitution or American ideology. I act in the name of humanity and I don't need a document to confirm for me that there are moral standards by which I am called to abide. I am not a political figure, and as such I do not have a means to influence Congress in a remarkable way as an individual. And you are mistaken to think I am on a high horse about changing the country. I have not once suggested this.

The statement was made as a response to his suggestion that I am ignoring the ideals of the Constitution. I demonstrated that I am not, and that I participate in humanitarian behavior. I would say that calling out politicians on their rhetorical hypocrisy, that their very actions insult the ideas set forth in the Constitution, is an action. I also feel that it is very important for the people of the most (debatable) currently influential country on the globe to look through the lens of humanity, and not a flawed and tainted American ideology.
Fair enough, the comment of "what are you doing to change this country", after stating that you are doing something implies you think they are doing nothing and you are, it's essentially a challenge to prove how someone is trying to change a country, intended or not.

I personally think trying to change this country is useless, because not enough people see the problems, and/or can't agree how to fix them. It's being demonstrated in this thread to some extent.


Honestly, I'm about done with this discussion for the evening. I also find it hard to believe that this needs any explaining. :odd: Ask yourself: What fuels a political campaign? What does it require to sustain itself? And where does that (money) come from? And on what conditions?
You can't answer a question with a question, at least not to me, I'll just ask it again. I didn't say you were right or wrong, just asking you to explain.
 
Actions speak louder than "stands for". That's my point.

That's fine, but it has nothing to do with my point - which is that those actions are not the foundations of this country.

But this country you see today was built over many years by weak-moraled white men who abused their ability to have power and influence over other people, and that is all there is to it.

Humanity is generally weak-moraled. That's why our constitution is so brilliant, it recognizes human nature.

When you have nearly 400 million people and the rest of the world watching you via technological advancements (media, internet, etc.), you bend a hell of a lot further than you do when you are an army general with rifles and cannons facing a handful of native Americans with arrows and knives.

Oh come now, we still have enough firepower to make the rest of the world look like they're holding arrows and knives. Don't confuse difficulty occupying Iraq while attempting not to oppress them with the ability to mass-murder. We have the latter for sure.

Likewise, when there are only a million or so people in the country, you don't consider entertaining the bold groups who are angry that you treat women with no respect the same way you would when the entire world is watching or angry over that matter, calling for you to step up the standard of morality/equality, etc.

...except we lead that standard. We didn't change our ways because the rest of the world forced us to, we did it from within with a framework that emboldened that change.

...to say that this country is truly "founded" on the principles in the Bill of Rights, etc., is not an accurate statement.

It is literally an accurate statement.

A nation becomes 'great' in our world by prospering, and we prospered by conquering unjustly the same way that many other nations have also done throughout history. If you deny that, you need to open your eyes. We are not some country that "does it right".

Oh but we are. Do you think that we have some sort of natural resources that the rest of the world does not? The middle east is rich with resources that the rest of the world wants, and it does not seem to help them. Nothing that we have conquered has made us great. Take a trip to El Paso Texas sometime and drive down the 10 freeway (I did this only a few days ago). On one side of the freeway you will see Mexico and all its poverty. You will see "houses" made out of rusted sheets of tin and tarps, stacked right next to each other. You will see this:

Juarez+WTIS+2004+(21).jpg

image001.jpg


^ This is Jaurez Mexico, and it can be seen within a stone's throw of El Paso... this v:

el-paso-tx.jpg


Natural resources? Is it because the US "conquered" resources that Mexico did not? These "cities" are sitting essentially on the same land. The only difference between the two is the government that runs them. The US government has a judicial system and government that recognizes the rights of the people. This is what capitalism represents. That is the difference between these two cities. Not land, not resources, not which of our ancestors killed more people... just government.

America does not set the standard for moral dignity, quite the contrary. Who massacred the native Americans at Sitting Bull? The American army. Who enslaved African Americans and kept them as slaves? The American Government. Who detained the Japanese on our own soil and only recently admitted this? The U.S. government. The list goes on and on, countless atrocities carried out in the name of keeping America on top or prospering those with the advantage, and which are completely contrary to the ideas set forth in the Bill of Rights. Beautifully idealized documents can be just as cheap as any other form of talk, actions are what decide things and reveal the truth.

600,000 Americans died fighting a war to free the enslaved Africans. Those aren't their brothers and sisters they died to free, it was a lineage brought to this country from another continent, and we died freeing them anyway.

I don't see how you can make the argument that America was founded on the philosophy of killing the natives, or that it was founded on the philosophy of enslaving the Africans. These are things that happened, sure, but they happened in opposition to the founding principles. Principles that we lived by and practiced extensively, but not completely... at least not immediately completely.

The concept that all men are created equal and the we have inalienable rights
was the driving force behind the foundation of our nation. It was in direct opposition to Monarchy, where some men are born with power and can control those who are not. That is what founded this nation, and it is influenced the entire world for good. We have, at times, struggled to live up to that ideal, but it remains our goal, and we lead the world in achieving it.

The Constitution has not made us great. Economic prosperity, technological advancement, and the exploitation of other people and cultures without reprimand has built up what you see today.

See Jaurez above. Our economic property comes from one thing and one thing alone - the recognition of human rights. Where you see capitalism (the economics of human rights), you see prosperity. Where you see authoritative governments and the absence of a judicial system that protects rights (eg: Mexico... or more directly... Africa), you see what happens when cultures are built on the exploitation of other people.

And frankly our society is not filled with patriotic people, it's filled with spoiled people who are most angry when you take away their luxuries.

Generally speaking this is true. But it doesn't help your point at all.


...founding fathers ring a bell? You are removing a group of morally destitute men's work from the group of morally destitute men, Plato would suggest not doing that. They were bad people, and their document reflects it.

Baby, bathwater.
 
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Actions speak louder than "stands for".

That's fine, but it has nothing to do with my point - which is that those actions are not the foundations of this country.


I think you have misunderstood me this whole time. It has absolutely everything to do with your point. I am saying that you are wrong to call the Constitution the foundation of our country. A document itself is inanimate, and the ideas put forth in it are worthless if they are not observed. The foundation of this country is the actions of the men I have already discussed, and what you see today is the result of this occurring over many years, not the principles set forth in the Constitution. I'm not denying that the document has had it's place in shaping our history, but frankly it has been blatantly disregarded too many times for me to associate it with the actions of the US government, the government that is supposedly "of the people", yet it never has been.




image001.jpg


el-paso-tx.jpg


The only difference between the two is the government that runs them.



That is a very silly thing to say.





This is another one of those endless tail-chasing adventures, which I'm not really up for today
(even though I started it :sly:).
 
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I think you have misunderstood me this whole time. It has absolutely everything to do with your point. I am saying that you are wrong to call the Constitution the foundation of our country.

No, I get you. You're just wrong.

A document itself is inanimate, and the ideas put forth in it are worthless if they are not observed.

This is monumental misunderstanding of the role philosophy plays, not to mention pointless since many of those ideas are observed today (because they were written then).

The foundation of this country is the actions of the men I have already discussed, and what you see today is the result of this occurring over many years, not the principles set forth in the Constitution.

I thoroughly debunked this notion in my previous post - none of which you have substantively responded to.
 
No, I get you. You're just wrong.


Ok.


This is monumental misunderstanding of the role philosophy plays, not to mention pointless since many of those ideas are observed today (because they were written then).


Sounds important. :sly: I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the fact that a philosophy is worthless without actions that produce the results of that philosophy. The US has a long history of schizophrenia in this regard.


I thoroughly debunked this notion in my previous post - none of which you have substantively responded to.


No, I responded that I'm not going to do this all day today. And there is nothing you can say to change the facts concerning the historical actions of our government, and the countless times they have had absolutely no regard for what you claim this country is founded on.
 

No, I responded that I'm not going to do this all day today. And there is nothing you can say to change the facts concerning the historical actions of our government, and the countless times they have had absolutely no regard for what you claim this country is founded on.

Got it. Let me know when you're interested in having a discussion. Agreed that nothing I say can change history. Luckily it doesn't need to.
 
There is a big difference between the cities pictured because one is full of Mexicans and the other is filled with every culture in the world. America is the way it is because of the people in it, not a document.
 
There is a big difference between the cities pictured because one is full of Mexicans and the other is filled with every culture in the world. America is the way it is because of the people in it, not a document.

No, both cities are full of Mexicans. That's not a joke, it's the honest truth. The cities have the same people, there is nothing special about the people living in El Paso vs. Jaurez.
 
El Paso is over 15% non-Hispanic and is in a state with only a 36% Hispanic population, which is all in a country with only a 16% Hispanic population and 84% non-Hispanic. The difference=the people.
 
El Paso is over 15% non-Hispanic and is in a state with only a 36% Hispanic population, which is all in a country with only a 16% Hispanic population and 84% non-Hispanic. The difference=the people.

For a city that has 80% hispanic population, you think the other 20% are the big difference? Racist much? No, the people are not the difference. Pull your head out.
 
Racist much?
I don't agree with what you're implying. I pointed out cultural diversity. :dunce:

It's worth noting danoff thinks a document written by racist is the difference. :dunce: x2
 
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Are you just plain dumb? I pointed out cultural diversity. :dunce:

You seriously think that the 20% non-hispanics in El Paso are the reason it doesn't look like Jaurez Mexico?? It has nothing to do with the corrupt Mexican government and police. Or the rampant drug wars going on which are causing a massive exodus from Jaurez. None of that could be it, it must be attributable to the small portion of the population who aren't hispanic??? 100% racist.

It's worth noting danoff thinks a document written by racist is the difference. :dunce: x2

Correct. Some of the founding fathers were racists who did not view Africans as human beings. They still wrote the constitution and bill of rights - which set up capitalism and resulted eventually in prosperity for all. Specifically, in this case, the hispanics living on one side of the river are living in riches compared to hispanics living on the other side. Where's the problem?
 
El Paso is over 15% non-Hispanic and is in a state with only a 36% Hispanic population, which is all in a country with only a 16% Hispanic population and 84% non-Hispanic. The difference=the people.
That's about as racist a statement as you can make, whether you grasp that or not.
 
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