Project CARS 3 Developer Blog Explains New Tire Physics, Confirms Pit Stops Are History

[Scaff]

Exactly the points I've been trying to make as well. It's still simulating everything it needs to simulate to qualify as a sim. Some are dynamically simulated and some are in a static state of simulation but they are still being simulated regardless.

Nice to see someone else can see that.

Most can see that perfectly well, the question becomes a simulation of what?

Is it a simulation of driving? Yes, it is, a potentially slightly more limited simulation given the fixed value for core tyre temp, but yes it's still a simulation of driving.

Is it a simulation of Motorsport? Now that's a lot trickier question to answer, and you would have to then limit it to only those motorsport types that don't allow pitstops during the race itself. Not mandatory pitstops, but pitstops period, as an example the BTCC doesn't have mandatory pitstops but you can still pit if you need.

Now what is clear is that SMS is still dismissing this side of things and then wondering why people react badly to it, for example:

Now also consider that this was the Online Marketing Directors opening line when joining the Discord last night:

It would seem that he's not that different to his dad in communications style, not however one that looks good for a company director, not that telling people to just leave if they don't like what he says is outside his style either.

He also managed to contradict his own dev team's blog as well with this.

Now the dev team were quite clear (and Nathan Bell quoted the paragraph himself) that the core temp resets every physics tick. Now if that true then it's not going to 'slowly revert' at all, well not unless the physics ticks are now seconds apart rather than the milliseconds try need to be.

I can also confirm that he does read the posts here, so I'm fairly certain that I have just marked my card with them, even though I have been a long time fan of both the studio and its output (from Shift through the PC series, which I have repeatedly championed both here and on my channel).

SMS makes some great titles that punch well above the budget and resources of the studio, however, they communicate like a studio stuck in the '90s, with arrogance for the customer base that, despite being a Project Cars fan, would never seek to defend. Nathan's line about expecting a chat with fans sums it up, as a Marketing Director of any flavour (but particularly on-line) if you expect fans to be nothing but adoring sycophants who exist only to validate everything you do, then you need to look again at what your job role should entail!

I think to a large degree that's the issue most people have, its not so much the change in direction that has been taken, its the miscommunication and the **** you attitude that has caused the problem.

 

[MagpieRacer]

His attitude cannot be defended, he always come across poorly even back to PC2. I still remember when they spoke about custom championships and said no one wanted them because they had all the championships we want in career mode. Natrually in a slightly more aggressive tone. Ian is fractionally better nowadays but Nathan with every post is showing his true colours more and more and runs the risk of single handedly killing what little fan support he has left on the forums.

Please don't take what I'm saying as defense of their attitude or removal of aspects. I just want to see the positive where others csnt.

 

[Animera]

Good post @Scaff. For me it's both.

When PCars 1 was released I said that it was the best racing game ever made, in my opinion. It covered so many different car and track combinations and I absolutely loved the career mode. The immersion, as Nathan says, was second to none and it wasn't just the driving. It was the whole race weekend, the dynamic weather and time of day. It was like nothing I had played before and I loved it!

So much so that I put in 2596 hours between career and league racing. I did every single career endurance race with Bob and had the most fun I've ever had with a racing game.

Then came PCars 2 with some improvements but a disastrous ICM and online features. We had league races where half the field would get rain and the other half didn't. We had people getting the wrong tyres at pitstops. The league collapsed and we moved to another platform. I still played some career but it wasn't the same as the original game. The endurance races were horrible. Switching to Bob was a pain and he couldn't drive being multiple seconds off the pace. I got 500 odd hours into the game and lost interest.

So when PCars 3 was announced I was initially excited that they would have addressed the issues in PCars 2 and we were in for a treat.
The rest is history. They showed a trailer that had us questioning a number of things and then said not to worry as all our sim goodies were still there.
And then they were gone ... and we are left so disappointed and angry.

 

[Benny44]

The question was answered over and over. 'Will there be pitstops? Why not? I don't like it.' That's basically it. Just constant, steady stream of the same question worded differently. You're not happy. But it's just this aggressive attitude toward SMS from the sim racing community that isn't a good look. Saying he's unprofessional when clearly the aggressor is the community that doesn't like this direction. Negative attitudes before a game is even out.....I mean, he's right - if you don't like the direction of the game, don't buy it. What's someone supposed to say when all you ever hear is mocking and bitterness because the game they're making isn't what you want?

There are so many ways to ask questions. I was on there last night. Many of the questions weren't polite. If you don't ask questions in at least a somewhat respectful way, why do you assume you should get a respectful reply? Why do we hold these guys that develop the game up to a high standard when we don't hold the same standard to ourselves?

 

[MagpieRacer]

The question was answered over and over. 'Will there be pitstops? Why not? I don't like it.' That's basically it. Just constant, steady stream of the same question worded differently. You're not happy. But it's just this aggressive attitude toward SMS from the sim racing community that isn't a good look. Saying he's unprofessional when clearly the aggressor is the community that doesn't like this direction. Negative attitudes before a game is even out.....I mean, he's right - if you don't like the direction of the game, don't buy it. What's someone supposed to say when all you ever hear is mocking and bitterness because the game they're making isn't what you want?

There are so many ways to ask questions. I was on there last night. Many of the questions weren't polite. If you don't ask questions in at least a somewhat respectful way, why do you assume you should get a respectful reply? Why do we hold these guys that develop the game up to a high standard when we don't hold the same standard to ourselves?

And the problem with this is, why would he bother coming back to the community? I think he's been overly aggressive, I defended him in another thread where his quotes had been distorted and reworded which I felt was unfair. But it has gone down hill from him since then. It's a real fine balance between being firm with your point and being a jack*** like he has been the past few days. But the community have certainly goaded it to a point.

It's also bad PR for Codemasters who now own the studio, and while their own game decisions and releases haven't always fallen favorably with the fans, they have always had very good community PR and engagement, especially with the likes of @PJTierney who shows how to engage with your community correctly, even in the face of criticism (see Dirt Rally 2.0). The question being would Codemasters have the power to remove/silence him before he causes irreparable damage to SMS in the community.

 

[Benny44]

And the problem with this is, why would he bother coming back to the community? I think he's been overly aggressive, I defended him in another thread where his quotes had been distorted and reworded which I felt was unfair. But it has gone down hill from him since then. It's a real fine balance between being firm with your point and being a jack*** like he has been the past few days. But the community have certainly goaded it to a point.

It's also bad PR for Codemasters who now own the studio, and while their own game decisions and releases haven't always fallen favorably with the fans, they have always had very good community PR and engagement, especially with the likes of @PJTierney who shows how to engage with your community correctly, even in the face of criticism (see Dirt Rally 2.0). The question being would Codemasters have the power to remove/silence him before he causes irreparable damage to SMS in the community.

I agree he could have handled it a bit better. I think I'm giving him more leeway though since he's fairly young. If it was Ian on there yesterday, I would've been a little more disappointed. I think he was genuinely trying to interact with fans, and he just got in maybe a bit far. Got his back up a bit too quickly.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I agree he could have handled it a bit better. I think I'm giving him more leeway though since he's fairly young. If it was Ian on there yesterday, I would've been a little more disappointed. I think he was genuinely trying to interact with fans, and he just got in maybe a bit far. Got his back up a bit too quickly.

In fairness I think he gets some of that from Ian . Who himself has been quite quiet on this. He was a lot more active at pc2 launch time.

 

[gjozracer]

I think that only going part way to "automate" certain things like tyre wear and tyre replacement was where it started to fall apart.

What they should have done was implement a completely automated simulation which covered the following:

• automatically change tyres
• automatically select the correct gear
• automatically brake the vehicle
• automatically steer the car around the course.

This would then provide the "perfect race simulator" experience, as all you would have to do is sit back and watch yourself win every race!!

 

[Scaff]

The question was answered over and over. 'Will there be pitstops? Why not? I don't like it.' That's basically it. Just constant, steady stream of the same question worded differently. You're not happy. But it's just this aggressive attitude toward SMS from the sim racing community that isn't a good look. Saying he's unprofessional when clearly the aggressor is the community that doesn't like this direction. Negative attitudes before a game is even out.....I mean, he's right - if you don't like the direction of the game, don't buy it. What's someone supposed to say when all you ever hear is mocking and bitterness because the game they're making isn't what you want?

There are so many ways to ask questions. I was on there last night. Many of the questions weren't polite. If you don't ask questions in at least a somewhat respectful way, why do you assume you should get a respectful reply? Why do we hold these guys that develop the game up to a high standard when we don't hold the same standard to ourselves?

He isn't just some guy on a forum, he's a director of a business and as such can't act in the same way, regardless of how aggressive or unhappy the customer base is.

In fact, the more angry and unhappy a customer base is the more professional you have to be when in that position, keep in mind as well that the majority of the reason why this situation exists is because of how the company has chosen to promote this title. If they knew (and they should) that the existing community would be unhappy with this direction, then you don't use the image of a brand (Project Cars) that sets expectations and you don't mislead that audience (all the sim you could want).

All they had to do is from the outset is position this outside of the main numbered PC series and be quite clear what would and would not be included and who you are aiming it at. By keeping in within the core series (by naming it PC3) and telling people it would appeal to everyone they set the very expectation that they knew would not be achieved, as such its absurd to then complain about the backlash.

That aside this is far from the first time that a member of the Bell clan has been overly aggressive.

 

[Sam714]

And the problem with this is, why would he bother coming back to the community? I think he's been overly aggressive, .

Thats what happens when you see you've completely missed the user base with insular development and now realise you've got a flop on your hands, they are getting panned on twitter, reddit, FB etc.

I and anyone one I know will definitely not be getting the game, and it will never change direction, especially reading the dev posts and comments. I think that's the PCars series done now, going by the attitude they are the type that will be too proud to admit any mistakes and the series IF it continues will stay in this new direction

They're not stupid, they are a talented team that knows their fans, so they knew exactly how the community would react to major features of the game being missing, so they obviously decided that the community was worth losing and sacrificing to go after a new fan base and more $$

Thing is it looks like this game is going to be as big a success as GRID lol

Also they are really doubling down on the losing fans, said it again last night....

 

[Flerbizky]

@MagpieRacer @AlexWilmot I have tried Forza! I'm not an Xbox guy, but I did have a 360. I was a longtime 'Gran Turismo or nothing' kinda person until then. But Forza 4 is still quite possibly my favorite driving game ever. Engine swaps were something I hadn't seen in games before. That, combined with the livery editor, the marketplace and excellent online features made it great, to me.

I read your post and thought: "Didn't we do engine swaps in GT3 way before FM4?".. Then I remembered that that was not an officially sanctioned operation and you had to use a garage editor. So we did, but not unless you wanted to tamper with your save ( :

I still remember I did a 4 rotor (787B) powered RX7.. That was nice ( :

 

[Moglet]

Now what is clear is that SMS is still dismissing this side of things and then wondering why people react badly to it, for example:

What an appalling attitude to have towards anyone, let alone fans of your game. I work in the games industry and if I had said anything like this I'm pretty sure I'd have been fired almost immediately. They really need to get their act together because right now they sound like spoiled children. Not having an issue with employing someone like that as a Director in any department is a sure fire way to see your studio fail eventually.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I read your post and thought: "Didn't we do engine swaps in GT3 way before FM4?".. Then I remembered that that was not an officially sanctioned operation and you had to use a garage editor. So we did, but not unless you wanted to tamper with your save ( :

I still remember I did a 4 rotor (787B) powered RX7.. That was nice ( :

Completely off topic, but you do realise if you do your smiley the other way around it appears like this instead of ( :

Unless of course you're not actually meant to be doing a smiley, if not carry on & I apologise ( :

 

[Flerbizky]

This would have been perfectly plausible, and let me add, intriguing as well, if no magic (ops, sorry again, automatic) tires were involved.

For example, a nice track day racing sim, where you bring the car and the tires that you have, you start racing/driving/cruising/whatever, and if it start raining you simply deal with it!

We used to do that in PC1 with the Turistenfahren group (on Steam). It was free for all, no class limits race - setup as 8 hour practice sessions which I guess they would then reset when time ran out. It was awesome and people were super cool. I spend a lot of time in the Caterham back then and on one occasion, one of the faster guys (with more HP) waited for me to come onto the straight and let me draft him all the way. It was Nordschleife only btw. Also heavy policed - it was made very clear that griefing, even the slightest, would not be tolerated.

Did I mention SMS broke my heart when they removed the pits in PC2 and broke the above?

Completely off topic, but you do realise if you do your smiley the other way around it appears like this instead of (:

You do realize, that if I wanted a - I'd turn my (: around

 

[MagpieRacer]

Thats what happens when you see you've completely missed the user base with insular development and now realise you've got a flop on your hands, they are getting panned on twitter, reddit, FB etc.

I and anyone one I know will definitely not be getting the game, and it will never change direction, especially reading the dev posts and comments. I think that's the PCars series done now, going by the attitude they are the type that will be too proud to admit any mistakes and the series IF it continues will stay in this new direction

They're not stupid, they are a talented team that knows their fans, so they knew exactly how the community would react to major features of the game being missing, so they obviously decided that the community was worth losing and sacrificing to go after a new fan base and more $$

Thing is it looks like this game is going to be as big a success as GRID lol

Also they are really doubling down on the losing fans, said it again last night....

There's still a better way of handling it though. They will have expected some backlash of course, but its how you respond that can dictate the rest. He may have found that being sincere and understanding, polite, empathetic, all of the things, he may have been able to save some of the grief and backlash a bit. Not saying people would suddenly get on board with the decisions but respect goes a long way in this business.

 

[MroczMR]

To be honest if your game community is mad at you and you can't handle it you should stay quite not fight with them.

The best example? No Man Sky and Hello Studios. After backlash they went quite and repaired the game, and now everybody forgot about that.

 

[Scaff]

What an appalling attitude to have towards anyone, let alone fans of your game. I work in the games industry and if I had said anything like this I'm pretty sure I'd have been fired almost immediately. They really need to get their act together because right now they sound like spoiled children. Not having an issue with employing someone like that as a Director in any department is a sure fire way to see your studio fail eventually.

Well, he is the boss's son, so if I'm being cynical he may not have the position on merit!

 

[MagpieRacer]

To be honest if your game community is mad at you and you can't handle it you should stay quite not fight with them.

The best example? No Man Sky and Hello Studios. After backlash they went quite and repaired the game, and now everybody forgot about that.

Not strictly true. The first few weeks were turbulent and Sean Murrary didn't cover himself in glory. Then they went quiet, someone clearly told him to pipe down and fix it.

 

[Scaff]

To be honest if your game community is mad at you and you can't handle it you should stay quite not fight with them.

The best example? No Man Sky and Hello Studios. After backlash they went quite and repaired the game, and now everybody forgot about that.

The best example, in my opinion, is Evolution Studios and Driveclub. That's how you respond to a backlash.

Put your hands up, acknowledge it and go above and beyond to fix it.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

I just wanna see the car list since its the deciding factor rather i buy it or not.

 

[Benny44]

It's funny that the doomsday people are on here saying the game is gonna flop. @Sam714 this game isn't for you, but don't group everyone into that. My friends never bought PC1 or PC2. But they're going to get this. And probably within a month or so of launch.

I asked a couple questions last night as well

 

[Tool1312]

Glad you've all seen what happened last night.

It surprised me his tone from the start with the 'toxicity' phrase.

And wanting to shut me down was another ploy as I was obviously touching a nerve

He wants everyone on side it seems

I doubt we'll see the faq for a long time yet.

@Tool1312 Cool bud. I've done my best to answer your questions. I suggest you stick to your favourite racing game and hopefully you'll be here for 4 and that might work for you

Another quote

Good post Scarf and others

 

[MagpieRacer]

Glad you've all seen what happened last night.

It surprised me his tone from the start with the 'toxicity' phrase.

And wanting to shut me down was another ploy as I was obviously touching a nerve

He wants everyone on side it seems

I doubt we'll see the faq for a long time yet.

@Tool1312 Cool bud. I've done my best to answer your questions. I suggest you stick to your favourite racing game and hopefully you'll be here for 4 and that might work for you

Another quote

Good post Scarf and others

Well if you goad someone enough you'll get the rise you're looking for. I've seen it, i don't agree with how Nathan acted, I also think you're as much part of the problem with that episode personally. All I can see is you hijacking every question complaining about magic tyres and pitstops.

 

[T0MMY3688]

It's funny that the doomsday people are on here saying the game is gonna flop. @Sam714 this game isn't for you, but don't group everyone into that. My friends never bought PC1 or PC2. But they're going to get this. And probably within a month or so of launch.

I asked a couple questions last night as well

I'm quite interested for their reason of not sticking with "Revolution". Is it because of brand awareness and adding an extra word behind will confuse the average joe.

 

[Tool1312]

Magic tyres, automatic tyres, maybe it came across to him as goading but like I said before, a dry slick that becomes a grooved wet when it rains without having to stop is, well, magic, seeing as dynamic changeable weather is still in tha game.

He also said that the decision to remove pitstops etc was taken very early on in development. W
couldn't they have put this to fans early on to gauge reaction and opinion instead of throwing a confusing trailer out of the blue and sitting back not understanding why there's such a backlash?
Fair enough a company decision is what it is but if it was a brand new title from a new company I could understand the ' this is what it is' standpoint, but when it's the third game in a series you'd have thought they'd have had some sort of fan feedback implementation to see what people wanted rather than the 'if you don't like it don't buy it selling point
By upsetting the core fans it's not a great move.
They're obviously pinning massive hopes on the buyers that don't go on social media to see what's what.
Mr Bell will probably not change as he's adamant that it's the right decision they'd made

 

[Moglet]

Magic tyres, automatic tyres, maybe it came across to him as goading but like I said before, a dry slick that becomes a grooved wet when it rains without having to stop is, well, magic, seeing as dynamic changeable weather is still in tha game.

It may feel that way to you but if you were repeating the same thing over and over (I wasn't there, I'm just going off the other post that stated you were hijacking questions) then that's not a good way to go about giving feedback either. At that point it just becomes an annoyance and I can see why he may have got frustrated and lashed out. That doesn't excuse his responses, but it's certainly a good way to get someone to ignore you and not give you any answers.

 

[IfAndOr]

I'm quite interested for their reason of not sticking with "Revolution". Is it because of brand awareness and adding an extra word behind will confuse the average joe.

That's a very interesting question really because it's the average Joes that they seem to be wanting to attract more of. "Revolution" would seem a much more attention seeking title than "3"!
And would have caused much less of a revolution amongst the fans of previous PCars!


Was this Discord (aptly named) thingy official or just a casual open chat? If the latter, depending on your agenda and from which parts you chose to view, I didn't see too much wrong with it, But as it's been pointed out a director does need to try and keep himself controlled. But if pushed, we're all human.

Anyway was it all just "where's the pitstops" and "magic tyres" (which we already knew about!) or did some take this useful opportunity to ask any questions that might have given the "community" further insight into the game? Credits, multiplayer, sandbox etc?
(Yes I saw your questions @Benny44 )

 

[Tool1312]

He wouldn't or couldn't say much else.
I asked about whether there was damage but he didn't say just buy it and you'll see

 

[Scaff]

That's a very interesting question really because it's the average Joes that they seem to be wanting to attract more of. "Revolution" would seem a much more attention seeking title than "3"!
And would have caused much less of a revolution amongst the fans of previous PCars!


Was this Discord (aptly named) thingy official or just a casual open chat? If the latter, depending on your agenda and from which parts you chose to view, I didn't see too much wrong with it, But as it's been pointed out a director does need to try and keep himself controlled. But if pushed, we're all human.

Anyway was it all just "where's the pitstops" and "magic tyres" (which we already knew about!) or did some take this useful opportunity to ask any questions that might have given the "community" further insight into the game? Credits, multiplayer, sandbox etc?
(Yes I saw your questions @Benny44 )

I'm on the discord as well, its the official one for Project Cars, I have to say that Nathan seemed to be looking more for positive reinforcement rather than to address any actual questions or concerns, and came into the whole thing on the defensive.

 

[IfAndOr]

He wouldn't or couldn't say much else.

I expect his hands were somewhat tied in that. If there's little he could reveal perhaps he should have delayed it until he could say more.

its the official one for Project Cars,

Fair enough then. I thought it might have just been his own. And for being defensive, well I suppose that understandable since it's their Project and he's got to stand by it. He couldn't do otherwise really.