Project CARS 4 "Will Be The Most Realistic Simulation Ever Made"

[Konan]

[They don’t have to share the exact same aims or goals to be a successor]

...most people don't see it that way,there have been plenty of examples from people and reviewers comparing it to pCARS 2 with EXACTLY the same aims or goals in mind. And that's where i think they're wrong.
It might be a successor in name,but that is where the comparison ends (except certain features it does have in common).
So in a way (now that you've put it that way)we agree...

 

[IfAndOr]

It's a full on arcade game, nothing about it is even slightly realistic

Do you have the game @JSHuiting? If not, what are you basing your opinion on? Genuine question, it's interesting to know where these extreme views of the game come from.

It's the 3rd game of a franchise, what they do with that franchise is their own choice.

Indeed it is (some seem to disagree though ). However it's difficult to argue against PC3 being perhaps not a direct successor (in your terms), but a very close descendant of PC2. I still see PC3 has being PC2 polished up a little and wearing some new flashy clothes.


@Scaff - The driving physics, particularly the tyres, have been "smoothed over" from the previous versions to make it more approachable to more people, less peaky perhaps, however does that class as input smoothing? There is a change to the grip levels that makes it feel and behave slightly differently than before (i.e. braking distances) but it's still in a relatively believable manor, which I think is the appeal to those who enjoy it.
Obviously, as in any racing title, controller inputs are smoothed because the smaller stick movement needs to be.

Essentially, the way I'm reading it, it's down to whether you care more about accuracy, or how things feel.

There is certainly some crossover between the two, but generally I think you're reading it correctly.

 

[GTsimms]

No problem, in very simple terms, if to correct for a yaw rate of X degrees you need to apply Y degrees of steering lock and Z% of throttle (as I said this is keeping it simple). Depending on the tyre, speed and yaw rate in question you will have a fudge factor that exists that will allow to catch and hold, just not quite as neatly as getting it spot on.

Simply catching and correcting obviously doesn’t require as much accuracy as holding and maintaining (or increasing) that yaw angle.

What input smoothing does is take your inputs and smooth them out, helping to keep them within these limits. It’s quite different to artificially extending the limits (which is the norm in arcade titles, allowing for absurd raw rates to be managed with ease), as it keeps the reality of the limits of yaw, while allowing the driver to catch, correct and/or hold that yaw more easily than reality would allow.

It’s more obvious on race tyres, as the limits are higher and they are more peaky than road tyres (not to the ‘fall off a cliff’ degree of iRacing.




I’m simply quoting the devs.


Which would contradict the claim of it not being a successor.

Absolutely response! There's absolutely (Zero) input smoothing going on with a steering wheel.

 

[BreakerOhio]

..

Absolutely response! There's absolutely (Zero) input smoothing going on with a steering wheel.

Agreed. There is no such input smoothing going on with a steering wheel.

The gamepad has a behavior that is a nice change to give users more controls to be able to drive with a gamepad. Which I'm happy for the gamepad users so they can play and enjoy the game without a wheel. However if someone has a wheel, the ffb is really good.

 

[Toblerone]

Do you have the game @JSHuiting? If not, what are you basing your opinion on? Genuine question, it's interesting to know where these extreme views of the game come from.


Indeed it is (some seem to disagree though ). However it's difficult to argue against PC3 being perhaps not a direct successor (in your terms), but a very close descendant of PC2. I still see PC3 has being PC2 polished up a little and wearing some new flashy clothes.


@Scaff - The driving physics, particularly the tyres, have been "smoothed over" from the previous versions to make it more approachable to more people, less peaky perhaps, however does that class has input smoothing? There is a change to the grip levels that makes it feel and behave slightly differently than before (i.e. braking distances) but it's still in a relatively believable manor, which I think is the appeal to those who enjoy it.
Obviously, as in any racing title, controller inputs are smoothed because the smaller stick movement needs to be.


There is certainly some crossover between the two, but generally I think you're reading it correctly.

Regarding supposed 'input smoothing', dumbed down tyre physics and reduced braking distances (all of which I have my doubts about)... surely these simplified 'arcade' elements would manifest themselves in far lower, and unrealistic laptimes compared to more 'realistic' simulators. Do we have any evidence to either back these claims up or contradict them I wonder? The developers were asked about 'input smoothing' earlier today and the reply was that this claim is nonsense... if you enable the in-game assists then you will have various levels of steering/braking/pedal input help, but if they are disabled then the developers state that there are none whatsoever. There are pad filters always present, but nothing that would give any advantage over a skilled wheel user. So, either the people who created the game are bare-faced liars... or certain unqualified assumptions and falsehoods are being put out there by people who, perhaps, just misinterpret the slip curve in this title.

Let's just have a look at some comparison videos showing pC3 against pC2, AMS2 and rF2 and see what proof we have for reduced laptimes, simplified physics and 'input smoothing'. I look forward to any opinions on these videos.

Thanks to A.K. for posting these -

 

[GTsimms]

Regarding supposed 'input smoothing', dumbed down tyre physics and reduced braking distances (all of which I have my doubts about)... surely these simplified 'arcade' elements would manifest themselves in far lower, and unrealistic laptimes compared to more 'realistic' simulators. Do we have any evidence to either back these claims up or contradict them I wonder? The developers were asked about 'input smoothing' earlier today and the reply was that this claim is nonsense... if you enable the in-game assists then you will have various levels of steering/braking/pedal input help, but if they are disabled then the developers state that there are none whatsoever. There are pad filters always present, but nothing that would give any advantage over a skilled wheel user. So, either the people who created the game are bare-faced liars... or certain unqualified assumptions and falsehoods are being put out there by people who, perhaps, just misinterpret the slip curve in this title.

Let's just have a look at some comparison videos showing pC3 against pC2, AMS2 and rF2 and see what proof we have for reduced laptimes, simplified physics and 'input smoothing'. I look forward to any opinions on these videos.

Thanks to A.K. for posting these -

If anything, PC3 has a more natural drivable 1:1 feeling than anything which I have played. The handling was stated as "Convincing & fun handling." The model is definitely that quote for me. The vehicles are a blast to drive and feel very believable compared to real driving.

 

[Scaff]

Absolutely response! There's absolutely (Zero) input smoothing going on with a steering wheel.

Are you this polite in your day job?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Regarding supposed 'input smoothing', dumbed down tyre physics and reduced braking distances (all of which I have my doubts about)... surely these simplified 'arcade' elements would manifest themselves in far lower, and unrealistic laptimes compared to more 'realistic' simulators.

Not really, lap times are a poor metric to use, as 'realistic' or 'comparable lap times have been presented as proof of accuracy since the birth of youtube, take a look back at the early Forza and GT video threads here to see that. Now evidence has been shown fro the shorter braking distances and the devs themselves have stated that the core temps of the tyres are locked (well reset every physics tick - which is often enough to be locked), which would certainly have that element simplified in comparisons to the two previous titles.

Do we have any evidence to either back these claims up or contradict them I wonder? The developers were asked about 'input smoothing' earlier today and the reply was that this claim is nonsense... if you enable the in-game assists then you will have various levels of steering/braking/pedal input help, but if they are disabled then the developers state that there are none whatsoever. There are pad filters always present, but nothing that would give any advantage over a skilled wheel user. So, either the people who created the game are bare-faced liars... or certain unqualified assumptions and falsehoods are being put out there by people who, perhaps,
So the devs are happy to discuss this?

Great, I will have a word with the site owner, I'm sure we can arrange a QA to discuss all aspects of the PC series.

just misinterpret the slip curve in this title.

Which part of it? I've noticed that you reference 'slip curve' a number of times, so please expand on which elements of it are so great, why and how that matches what should be happening with regard to reality. I'm particularly interested in the relationships between peak slip angle and how it interplays with regard to lateral load and self-aligning torque, also how it balances the interaction between slip angles and percentages?

Let's just have a look at some comparison videos showing pC3 against pC2, AMS2 and rF2 and see what proof we have for reduced laptimes, simplified physics and 'input smoothing'. I look forward to any opinions on these videos.

Thanks to A.K. for posting these -

None of those was posted as a physics comparison, and lap times still remain a poor tool to use for that purpose. Plenty of videos exist 'proving' the accuracy of iRacing physics model, none of which will illustrate that it has a rather well-known issue with grip falling off a cliff once the peak slip angle has been exceeded.

 

[Konan]

I don't know how this can still be argued?
If had it straight from a dev who said that wheel aids are only there if you activate them yourself...

Sometimes it's ok to count your losses and admit you were wrong...

 

[GTsimms]

Are you this polite in your day job?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Just because you disagree. It still doesn't make an imaginable input just appear out of nowhere into a game.

BreakerOhio responded and he has ample track experience.

 

[Scaff]

I don't know how this can still be argued?
If had it straight from a dev who said that wheel aids are only there if you activate them yourself...

Sometimes it's ok to count your losses and admit you were wrong...

Unless Toblerone is a dev, then no we have not had it 'straight from the dev' at all.

I'm sure many would love to discuss this with an actual dev (or devs) from the team to find out more about what is going on with the title. You can also feel free to go back and check that I have only ever stated as t what I think is going on, I've never claimed to have inside knowledge about what the exact cause is. What I will say however is that 'something' is going on even with all assists off, well either that or reality is more difficult than PCars 3 and has managed to get some of its FFB messed-up. I find the latter improbable.

Just because you disagree. It still doesn't make an imaginable input just appear out of nowhere into a game.

Nor does it mean it's not present or that something isn't giving that impression.

BreakerOhio responded and he has ample track experience.

Ah, so direct track experience is valid now because it agrees with you. Odd, because when it didn't you dismissed it.

 

[Konan]

My bad for the typo... It was meant to be:"I've had it straight from a dev"

As in me, who forwarded that info to Toblerone.

 

[Johnnn]

Obviously, as in any racing title, controller inputs are smoothed because the smaller stick movement needs to be.

..

The gamepad has a behavior that is a nice change to give users more controls to be able to drive with a gamepad. Which I'm happy for the gamepad users so they can play and enjoy the game without a wheel. However if someone has a wheel, the ffb is really good.

No, you don't need much smoothing on a controller. At least not what is in PC3. PC3 has the worst gamepad controls if you like other sims. It's still beyond me how anybody can play it but from sim perspective (PC1 and PC2 too), it's completely broken.

 

[Scaff]

My bad for the typo... It was meant to be:"I've had it straight from a dev"

As in me, who forwarded that info to Toblerone.

Well, that's certainly clearer, so how about extending that offer to the dev?

 

[GTsimms]

Unless Toblerone is a dev, then no we have not had it 'straight from the dev' at all.

I'm sure many would love to discuss this with an actual dev (or devs) from the team to find out more about what is going on with the title. You can also feel free to go back and check that I have only ever stated as t what I think is going on, I've never claimed to have inside knowledge about what the exact cause is. What I will say however is that 'something' is going on even with all assists off, well either that or reality is more difficult than PCars 3 and has managed to get some of its FFB messed-up. I find the latter improbable.


Nor does it mean it's not present or that something isn't giving that impression.



Ah, so direct track experience is valid now because it agrees with you. Odd, because when it didn't you dismissed it.

Your responses are just laughable at best, input smoothing.

Konan asked and in the PC3 Discord Staff channel, SMS Staff answered the question and the response was shared with Toblerone.

Where did I dismiss track experience? IIRC, I was called Mr. Realworld, mall cop, and lying about my patrol unit.

 

[Konan]

Well, that's certainly clearer, so how about extending that offer to the dev?

Meaning?

 

[GTsimms]

Meaning?

He's still above admission of saying, I'm wrong!

 

[Scaff]

Your responses are just laughable at best, input smoothing.

Konan asked and in the PC3 Discord Staff channel, SMS Staff answered the question and the response was shared with Toblerone.

That would not qualify as us hearing directly from the devs.

Where did I dismiss track experience? IIRC, I was called Mr. Realworld, mall cop, and lying about my patrol unit.

By me?
I don’t think so.

Meaning?

Just that, extend an invite to the devs to come and talk to the community.

So we can hear directly from them.

He's still above admission of saying, I'm wrong!

For someone who has gone out of their way to avoid being open that’s quite ironic.

 

[GTsimms]

That would not qualify as us hearing directly from the devs.



By me?
I don’t think so.



Just that, extend an invite to the devs to come and talk to the community.

So we can hear directly from them.



For someone who has gone out of their way to avoid being open that’s quite ironic.

Why do you need to hear directly from SMS after the YouTube video about an employee.

Yes, by you on the ABS. Need a screenshot?

I haven't avoided being open. I gave you and Famine information in a pm which you used in a thread. I was literally attacked by another member in the forum and it was given the all clear by both of you. You know, how to derail a thread well with your personal agenda against the Project CARS Series. Input Smoothing, seriously?

 

[Konan]

So suddenly my credibility which you yourself defended here:

... means nothing when it doesn't suit you?

 

[Scaff]

Why do you need to hear directly from SMS after the YouTube video about an employee.

Yes, by you on the ABS. Need a screenshot?

To discuss the development of the title.

I haven't avoided being open. I gave you and Famine information in a pm which you used in a thread.

No, we referenced it, and you didn't give us information, you gave us cryptic screenshots. Now if you want to take issue with information being shared, you need to take a look at @Toblerone who did post one of those screenshots publically, along with your personal information. @Famine and I didn't supply the site with the information to freely google your history, your own friend did that.

I was literally attacked by another member in the forum and it was given the all clear by both of you.

You have access to the moderation side of the GT Planet forum to be able to see what action has been taken against what members and the reason for it? Nope, so please don't make assumptions about the result of reported posts.

You know, how to derail a thread well with your personal agenda against the Project CARS Series. Input Smoothing, seriously?

The only place that agenda exists is in your head, I've repeatedly defended PC3 against charges of being an arcade title, I gave it one of the far more positive reviews at launch and I've bought it twice (with the full season pass both times). If that's having an agenda against something I'd hate to see what's required to have an agenda for something, gifting it your first-born?

No, the crime I have committed is to have criticisms about it, something I have about every title around. Oddly only two titles have ever had a community so rabid that such action is seen as virtual heresy, GT, and Project Cars. Hell, even iRacing zealots are less 'burn the witch' and that takes some doing.

It is my view that something is not right about the force-feedback and the ease at which oversteer can be caught (along with a few other areas), without the insight of having a developer to speak to, I simply have proposed what I think could be the cause. The reasoned response from the staff and their followers at the official forum to that? 'You don't have experience', 'you don't have the right experience', 'you can't drive road cars in PC3, gg', 'you just hate PC3', 'your lying about your background', etc. (and I'm paraphrasing here before you demand direct quotes).

Amazingly I still like and enjoy PC3, but I certainly do now fully understand why the official site has the reputation it does among the wider sim racing community!

So suddenly my credibility which you yourself defended here:

View attachment 994702View attachment 994703
... means nothing when it doesn't suit you?

Quote me saying you don't speak directly to the Devs? I've not cast your credibility into doubt at all, but I will remember not to bother in the future.

Let me be blunt about this, you speaking to the devs doesn't mean that the answer they give you is 100% honest or accurate. It might be, but it certainly doesn't guarantee that at all.

 

[Konan]

And them giving it to you will give you 100% certainty?

You called one of them a lying bastard remember? (or was it idiot?)

I'm sure they'll be happy to answer any questions you have...

 

[GTsimms]

To discuss the development of the title.


No, we referenced it, and you didn't give us information, you gave us cryptic screenshots. Now if you want to take issue with information being shared, you need to take a look at @Toblerone who did post one of those screenshots publically, along with your personal information. @Famine and I didn't supply the site with the information to freely google your history, your own friend did that.


You have access to the moderation side of the GT Planet forum to be able to see what action has been taken against what members and the reason for it? Nope, so please don't make assumptions about the result of reported posts.


The only place that agenda exists is in your head, I've repeatedly defended PC3 against charges of being an arcade title, I gave it one of the far more positive reviews at launch and I've bought it twice (with the full season pass both times). If that's having an agenda against something I'd hate to see what's required to have an agenda for something, gifting it your first-born?

No, the crime I have committed is to have criticisms about it, something I have about every title around. Oddly only two titles have ever had a community so rabid that such action is seen as virtual heresy, GT, and Project Cars. Hell, even iRacing zealots are less 'burn the witch' and that takes some doing.

It is my view that something is not right about the force-feedback and the ease at which oversteer can be caught (along with a few other areas), without the insight of having a developer to speak to, I simply have proposed what I think could be the cause. The reasoned response from the staff and their followers at the official forum to that? 'You don't have experience', 'you don't have the right experience', 'you can't drive road cars in PC3, gg', 'you just hate PC3', 'your lying about your background', etc.

Amazingly I still like and enjoy PC3, but I certainly do now fully understand why the official site has the reputation it does among the wider sim racing community!


Quote me saying you don't speak directly to the Devs? I've not cast your credibility into doubt at all, but I will remember not to bother in the future.

Let me be blunt about this, you speaking to the devs doesn't mean that the answer they give you is 100% honest or accurate. It might be, but it certainly doesn't guarantee that at all.

To discuss the development of the title.


No, we referenced it, and you didn't give us information, you gave us cryptic screenshots. Now if you want to take issue with information being shared, you need to take a look at @Toblerone who did post one of those screenshots publically, along with your personal information. @Famine and I didn't supply the site with the information to freely google your history, your own friend did that.


You have access to the moderation side of the GT Planet forum to be able to see what action has been taken against what members and the reason for it? Nope, so please don't make assumptions about the result of reported posts.


The only place that agenda exists is in your head, I've repeatedly defended PC3 against charges of being an arcade title, I gave it one of the far more positive reviews at launch and I've bought it twice (with the full season pass both times). If that's having an agenda against something I'd hate to see what's required to have an agenda for something, gifting it your first-born?

No, the crime I have committed is to have criticisms about it, something I have about every title around. Oddly only two titles have ever had a community so rabid that such action is seen as virtual heresy, GT, and Project Cars. Hell, even iRacing zealots are less 'burn the witch' and that takes some doing.

It is my view that something is not right about the force-feedback and the ease at which oversteer can be caught (along with a few other areas), without the insight of having a developer to speak to, I simply have proposed what I think could be the cause. The reasoned response from the staff and their followers at the official forum to that? 'You don't have experience', 'you don't have the right experience', 'you can't drive road cars in PC3, gg', 'you just hate PC3', 'your lying about your background', etc. (and I'm paraphrasing here before you demand direct quotes).

Amazingly I still like and enjoy PC3, but I certainly do now fully understand why the official site has the reputation it does among the wider sim racing community!


Quote me saying you don't speak directly to the Devs? I've not cast your credibility into doubt at all, but I will remember not to bother in the future.

Let me be blunt about this, you speaking to the devs doesn't mean that the answer they give you is 100% honest or accurate. It might be, but it certainly doesn't guarantee that at all.

So basically, let's be blunt about this! You are calling us liars. Your experience is the absolute authority and ours is non existent.

 

[IfAndOr]

Round and round it goes!

But @GTsimms and @Konan, Scaff likes the PCars series, he's said so many times. Yes even PC3. At the moment you both are just disagreeing on certain aspects of the game, not whether its good or bad.
Edit. As he's just posted himself.


Your observation on PC3 in a nutshell @r_outsider.
Gtsimms

"Convincing & fun handling." The model is definitely that quote for me. The vehicles are a blast to drive

Scaff

I'm particularly interested in the relationships between peak slip angle and how it interplays with regard to lateral load and self-aligning torque, also how it balances the interaction between slip angles and percentages?

And they both like it.

Oddly only two titles have ever had a community so rabid that such action is seen as virtual heresy, GT, and Project Cars.

I suppose that's in SMS's favour that their fans can compete with those of the PD juggernaut!

 

[GTsimms]

Round and round it goes!

But @GTsimms and @Konan, Scaff likes the PCars series, he's said so many times. Yes even PC3. At the moment you both are just disagreeing on certain aspects of the game, not whether its good or bad.
Edit. As he's just posted himself.


Your observation on PC3 in a nutshell @r_outsider.
Gtsimms

Scaff

And they both like it.


I suppose that's in SMS's favour that their fans can compete with those of the PD juggernaut!

We'll, I would like to see his game time. Since, he's still enjoying it or is he lying about it?

 

[Scaff]

So basically, let's be blunt about this! You are calling us liars. Your experience is the absolute authority and ours is non existent.

Quote me doing any of that, I can wait.

We'll, I would like to see his game time. Since, he's still enjoying it or is he lying about it?

Game time is the sole determining factor of enjoyment, that’s a new one on me.

I don’t actually care if you think I’m lying about it, more than enough members here know how much I have defended and enthused about all three PCars titles. Those members know full well I have no reason to lie about it, and if I didn’t like it would be quite happy to say so. Hell , I disliked and was openly critical of both GT 5 and 6, in the GT forum. You honestly think after that I would bother to lie about this?

 

[GTsimms]

Quote me doing any of that, I can wait.



Game time is the sole determining factor of enjoyment, that’s a new one on me.

I don’t actually care if you think I’m lying about it, more than enough members here know how much I have defended and enthused about all three PCars titles. Those members know full well I have no reason to lie about it, and if I didn’t like it would be quite happy to say so. Hell , I disliked and was openly critical of both GT 5 and 6, in the GT forum. You honestly think after that I would bother to lie about this?

Game time is important, if you are lying about playing it. You hadn't played it for two months a few weeks back.

BTW, Toblerone didn't post anything that wasn't already public information.

So, back to theses input smoothing assists you are lying about or trying to state your opinion as a fact?

 

[Scaff]

Game time is important, if you are lying about playing it. You hadn't played it for two months a few weeks back.

Then feel free to stalk me on steam again.

BTW, Toblerone didn't post anything that wasn't already public information.

Then why complain about @Famine and I doing far less?

So, back to theses input smoothing assists you are lying about or trying to state your opinion as a fact?

Given that I’ve never stated it as fact you will need to rephrase that rather weak ad-hominem attack.

Im fairly certain I forgot to say ‘in my view’ or ‘in my opinion’ at least once or twice, so feel free to grab at that as proof.

 

[Konan]

Round and round it goes!

But @GTsimms and @Konan, Scaff likes the PCars series, he's said so many times. Yes even PC3. At the moment you both are just disagreeing on certain aspects of the game, not whether its good or bad.
Edit. As he's just posted himself.


Your observation on PC3 in a nutshell @r_outsider.
Gtsimms

Scaff

And they both like it.


I suppose that's in SMS's favour that their fans can compete with those of the PD juggernaut!

I never said he didn't like the game, i'm saying the way he talks about the devs is not OK.
I couldn't care less if someone likes the game or not, only the way it's been discussed.
And that's my filosophy at the official forum as well.
Me saying there are no assists in the wheel and me getting that directly from a dev is still not enough for him to admit he's wrong.
It's that kind of misinformation that gives the game a bad reputation.
He's constantly talking about his experience, he should therefore realise that some people believe anything he says.
My point is, if he states something that's wrong, he should admit that and rectify it.

 

[GTsimms]

Then feel free to stalk me on steam again.


Then why complain about @Famine and I doing far less?


Given that I’ve never stated it as fact you will need to rephrase that rather weak ad-hominem attack.

Im fairly certain I forgot to say ‘in my view’ or ‘in my opinion’ at least once or twice, so feel free to grab at that as proof.

So, you were the one that posted information from a pm and now it's Famine. I really think, he'll like the blame on that one!

 

[FPV MIC]

No, the crime I have committed is to have criticisms about it, something I have about every title around. Oddly only two titles have ever had a community so rabid that such action is seen as virtual heresy, GT, and Project Cars . Hell, even iRacing zealots are less 'burn the witch' and that takes some doing.

I'd add the Assetto Corsa community to the list along with GT and PCars fans, because while they were only a small community at the time of the console release they were equally fanatical about that title having no issues... even though they were playing on PC.