Project CARS General Discussion Thread

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Well the eye candy isn't doing it for me. I haven't played pcars for a couple of months now.

Wake me up when the physics are closer to finished.

:)


It is getting better, however it has a long way to go. IMO, graphics are improving the most and physics the least. All in all I think a lot of people will be happy with this game.
 
I find it ridiculous how certain people feel by hook and crook the need to bend everything into something that suit their opinion.

Not sure how super high res grass helps you feeling your car. Not sure how lighteffects give you any phyics related feedback, unless the sunlight acts like a UFO beam or similar. Not sure why cars with half the polygon count wouldn't give you the same driving related feedback. Not sure how a well modeled pit helps you improve you pit times. Not sure how post processing effects help you controlling your car. Not sure why you'd need reflections on your cars unless you want to apply make-up while driving. Not sure if I should go on... shall I? I can if one still doesn't get my point.

Also strictly ignoring the origin of my intervention in this discussion isn't nice, although I already mentioned it more than enough.
 
I find it ridiculous how certain people feel by hook and crook the need to bend everything into something that suit their opinion.

Not sure how super high res grass helps you feeling your car. Not sure how lighteffects give you any phyics related feedback, unless the sunlight acts like a UFO beam or similar. Not sure why cars with half the polygon count wouldn't give you the same driving related feedback. Not sure how a well modeled pit helps you improve you pit times. Not sure how post processing effects help you controlling your car. Not sure why you'd need reflections on your cars unless you want to apply make-up while driving. Not sure if I should go on... shall I? I can if one still doesn't get my point.

Also strictly ignoring the origin of my intervention in this discussion isn't nice, although I already mentioned it more than enough.

This.

While I understand that the game is still a bit away from release, I think people are starting to forget that it's coming out this year, and that SMS has less and less time to perfect a somewhat indecent physics system. The current physics are a mixture of Shift 2 and Forza 4 with no assists. It's rather difficult to control most cars.

Don't get me wrong; this game has major potential. The graphics are stunning, but like slump said, it's not going to help one control a car.
 
This.

While I understand that the game is still a bit away from release, I think people are starting to forget that it's coming out this year, and that SMS has less and less time to perfect a somewhat indecent physics system. The current physics are a mixture of Shift 2 and Forza 4 with no assists. It's rather difficult to control most cars.

Don't get me wrong; this game has major potential. The graphics are stunning, but like slump said, it's not going to help one control a car.

Ky got pushed back to 2014, did it not?
 
Well the eye candy isn't doing it for me. I haven't played pcars for a couple of months now.

Wake me up when the physics are closer to finished.

:)

You know, I was on your same boats a few weeks back... But I tried the BMWs and they've come a loooong way, you can now start to see the full potential of this game. If they keep mooving in that direction(FFB needs to be worked and on par) the finished product will be just fine!
 
I find it ridiculous how certain people feel by hook and crook the need to bend everything into something that suit their opinion.

Not sure how super high res grass helps you feeling your car. Not sure how lighteffects give you any phyics related feedback, unless the sunlight acts like a UFO beam or similar. Not sure why cars with half the polygon count wouldn't give you the same driving related feedback. Not sure how a well modeled pit helps you improve you pit times. Not sure how post processing effects help you controlling your car. Not sure why you'd need reflections on your cars unless you want to apply make-up while driving. Not sure if I should go on... shall I? I can if one still doesn't get my point.

Also strictly ignoring the origin of my intervention in this discussion isn't nice, although I already mentioned it more than enough.

Immersion. A huge part of the experience.
 
No offense, but this attitude is really disappointing. We have the unique chance to participate, discuss and give direct feedback for once, to have an influence and not only eat up what developers are trying to feed us - why waste that chance so carelessly?

Test it, if you find something that you think isnt right give them worthwhile feedback, watch it get better. If you dont like it at release, imho you have no right to complain if you didnt put any effort into helping them make it a better game.

And just for the record: They have come a long way in the last few months and made lots of progress on the new tire model.

No offence taken :). To be honest , If I felt I could pinpoint an issue with the physics and offer some suggestions , I'd participate in the WMD forums. I'm not technically gifted when it comes to software design and development and I struggle with even fairly basic stuff on a PC. At the same time I see many other tech savvy members giving their input on each build and the progress of the title. For me to pop up in a technical discussion with " the cars handle strangely , can you make them more realistic ? " would be laughable by comparison.

At the end of the day , Pcars will become what the members and developers make it. If the majority are obsessed with graphics over physics , then so be it. I have no doubt that will be a winning formula financially for the developers and lets face it , that's a very important goal to aim for.

If I'm disappointed with the final product , I won't feel regret. As I said above , the game will appeal to the majority , if that doesn't include me , that's fine :)

It is getting better, however it has a long way to go. IMO, graphics are improving the most and physics the least. All in all I think a lot of people will be happy with this game.
That's why I stopped downloading the latest build each week. All I saw were more cars , more tracks and the occasional minor change in the feel of a car each week. I haven't written it off but I think I could skip a couple of months and not miss much in the physics deparment.

Jav
You know, I was on your same boats a few weeks back... But I tried the BMWs and they've come a loooong way, you can now start to see the full potential of this game. If they keep mooving in that direction(FFB needs to be worked and on par) the finished product will be just fine!
Sounds promising ! I'm not expecting it to rival the "best" driving sims currently available , somewhere around GT5 at a minimum would be good though :)
 
I'll be a little more serious in this post :)

The main thing for me is the illusion.

I only got interested in driving sims after I bought GT5. I found it so fun that I bought a wheel to enhance the experience. What triggered me with it was the illusion that I through the game developed skills that could be used in real life. It also triggered an interest in motorsports, so strong was the experience.

(Someone is going to suggest that I move on to PC sims. I would if I had the money and the physical IRL space :))

The illusion was so strong that I am currently saving up to go to the local track and partake in a "Race Driver for a Day".

So why is it that I think that the visuals are important? For me it is the illusion that I could to the same in real life with the same car on the same track. I am able to read transfer functions and bode plots and all what goes in/out of the physics model part, so I can verify the quality of the simulation this way, but that would not make the illusion that I want.

The next step would be to make simple visuals, better but still not something that would put me firmly in the illusion. The better the visual the stronger the illusion, for me. Probably up to some point I guess. It is hard to say at what level the visuals are good enough tho.

Just to be absolutely clear; I want top physics model, and visual quality that make me believe that I could do the same in real life.

What I am really exited about is the Oculus Rift thing, because if they are as good as the label says then we can take the illusion to the next level.:)
 
No offense, but this attitude is really disappointing. We have the unique chance to participate, discuss and give direct feedback for once, to have an influence and not only eat up what developers are trying to feed us - why waste that chance so carelessly?

Test it, if you find something that you think isnt right give them worthwhile feedback, watch it get better. If you dont like it at release, imho you have no right to complain if you didnt put any effort into helping them make it a better game.

And just for the record: They have come a long way in the last few months and made lots of progress on the new tire model.


Exactly, all the stuff we complained about in games like GT5 and others where only a minimal amount during the game build was used on what fans wanted. So I hope not to see people like spinner say the opposite down the road (actually I do so I slam them for it :dopey:). The point is SMS is relying on the crowd that actually buys into this product to direct it and thus make a "perfect" formula for future pcars or other sims. To sit there and just be negative for no reason other than to be negative, is squandering a chance that we haven't really had.

There are plenty of opportunities for one to complain or suggest better feedback on the physics engine, but if one is going to just play and then stomp their feet when it doesn't work...Yet at the same time not notify the proper people that are willing to listen, then it is no one else fault but themselves. I know we live in an age where we tend to give feedback to groups like PD or T4 (t4 actually doing more now) and nothing happens still, but SMS is actually putting their bottom line at risk by hoping for great feedback from us the consumer and tester. Also just telling the forum and group what issues you have even if they aren't technical isn't really an excuse. They'll listen to you even if the direction you give is simple and takes time. Also from the types I have seen play these games for that past couple years, no one is taking graphics over the other, they want the best of both so they get closer to real world, if they can't then what is the point...and that brings us full circle to the feedback aspect.

I'll be a little more serious in this post :)

The main thing for me is the illusion.

I only got interested in driving sims after I bought GT5. I found it so fun that I bought a wheel to enhance the experience. What triggered me with it was the illusion that I through the game developed skills that could be used in real life. It also triggered an interest in motorsports, so strong was the experience.

Most of us got the feeling you describe back in 2001 at the latest with GT3 not to say others didn't get it later, but the majority here is long term GT advocates. The point being the big push is, GT doesn't seem to be doing much different from 2001 to now and GT6 will show us where we are going, until that the PC games are doing big things. I wouldn't say go PC unless you want to, but the push is because we've grown beyond GT's static nature to a degree, and due to GT's past innovation we kept growing as a group wanting new stuff in racing games.
 
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I must also mention that I absolutely understand the need of PCars to look good. PCars is, you can say whatever you want, a risky project for many people. They must achieve a certain level of sales, which is everything else than easy to hit. You guys might be completely excited of this game, but how many thousand non members are at least excited enough to buy it? It's not a secret that astonishing graphics wakes interest and is a serious motivator for many people to think about a purchase.
I never wanted nor tried to deny this.

I just felt the need to clear this in advance.
 
Immersion. A huge part of the experience.

This.

You could have the world's best physics engine pushing sliding cubes around a black and white map with no textures. It would suck.

Don't get me wrong, physics are really important. But actually, the reason physics are so important is that everyone wants to FEEL like they're driving a real car. It turns out that a lot of other things play into that as well.

Sounds are really important. If it doesn't sound like a car it's hard to make yourself believe you're driving one.

Visuals are likewise important. The whole point is to be able to pretend that it's real. Realistic graphics help that enormously.

And good graphics are just more pleasant to look at. If I'm going to be playing a game for hundreds of hours, I want it to not be an eyesore (I'm looking at you, rFactor 2...). :)

While you're probably right that stunning graphics are primarily a sales drive these days, there are a lot of things that they do for the simulation factor of a game that are quite underappreciated.
 
It is getting better, however it has a long way to go. IMO, graphics are improving the most and physics the least. All in all I think a lot of people will be happy with this game.
I'm beginning to think that you and some people in this thread don't even have pCARS. How can you say that only graphics have been improving when it's the exact opposite ? The physics and particularly the tyres are what have been given most attention lately, simply because a good part of the team is currently on another project.
It has a long way to go like you said, and yet the M3 GT (just an example, there are other brillant cars) is already far better than anything on the market IMO.
 
No offense, but this attitude is really disappointing. We have the unique chance to participate, discuss and give direct feedback for once, to have an influence and not only eat up what developers are trying to feed us - why waste that chance so carelessly?

Test it, if you find something that you think isnt right give them worthwhile feedback, watch it get better. If you dont like it at release, imho you have no right to complain if you didnt put any effort into helping them make it a better game.

And just for the record: They have come a long way in the last few months and made lots of progress on the new tire model.

Well said, sir! This can be said for a lot of games too. Developers (like me) do read the forums and appreciate good constructive feedback. What we don't like is being called 'lazy c***s' and the like....especially when we put in a considerable amount of effort to deliver a game to the public.

If you don't like what you see and have a suggestion on how it could possibly be improved, then give proper, constructive feedback. While it's not guaranteed that ALL the points can be implemented, I can guarantee that feedback such as "This is crap.... you should all go to hell" will be ignored. If only more people thought the same way as you FLX1981 :)
 
Okay. This weekend when I have some time I will get the latest build , spend a few hours with it and post my thoughts where I feel they are most appropriate on the WMD forum.

I've always been reluctant to comment on the development of the game , partly due to it being a work in progress and as such unfinshed (so don't pass judgement yet), partly due to invoking the hate of those that are immensely passionate about the title and its prospects.

I'm not a hater , let me make that very clear. The discussion here turned the value of graphics , how important they are to immersion compared to the feel through the wheel. I stated my opinion , thats all.

Back next week :)
 
Okay. This weekend when I have some time I will get the latest build , spend a few hours with it and post my thoughts where I feel they are most appropriate on the WMD forum.

I've always been reluctant to comment on the development of the game , partly due to it being a work in progress and as such unfinshed (so don't pass judgement yet), partly due to invoking the hate of those that are immensely passionate about the title and its prospects.

I'm not a hater , let me make that very clear. The discussion here turned the value of graphics , how important they are to immersion compared to the feel through the wheel. I stated my opinion , thats all.

Back next week :)

Commenting and offering feedback on a 'work in progress' is the BEST time to offer your suggestions. The further into development a game gets, the less likely any changes will happen :)
 
You could have the world's best physics engine pushing sliding cubes around a black and white map with no textures. It would suck.
A cube on a texture-less world is an extreme way of putting it, but you're completely correct.

The way I put it is this: you can have the best physics system in the universe but if what is getting rendered to the screen does a rubbish job of reacting to said physics - such as not seeing stiffly-sprung cars bouncing over bumps - then the physics won't "feel" anywhere near as good. Imagine if you're in helmetcam and neither the track, visible portion of the vehicle or the camera itself move up/down/left/right/forwards/backwards; you're going to have a damn hard time picking what the suspension is doing, the extent of weight transfer under acceleration/braking etc.

In a real car you can feel what your vehicle is doing through vibrations in your seat, pedals, wheel, gear shifter and so on in conjunction with what you physically see happening around you. Short of sitting on a giant metal spike and connecting it to the force feedback motors in a wheel or gamepad a game is already short one medium of response (what comes up through your seat), and in most cases can't provide feedback through pedals or shifter either. When you take those out, all the game is able to offer is feedback through the wheel - force - and on the screen - visual - so they have to be as accurate and as high-fidelity as possible.

It's important to make the distinction between "good" graphics and graphics that convey exactly what physics systems do. "Good" graphics would be something like Crysis 3. That's not the sort of graphics that are important in a racing simulator. What you want is to be able to see tiny, small, very detailed changes in the environment - if the physics system determines that a wheel+tyre needs to lift up a few centimetres in an oscillatory manner when you drive over a rumble strip then you should be able to see that happen. If you can't see that happen (ignore the fact you can't actually see this happen while driving unless in an open-wheeler; replays/trackside cams bare all) then how will you know that the physics system simulated it? Obviously having "good" graphics helps to an extent; it's easier to see what the physics system is doing when you have circular wheels as opposed to octagonal ones, but there is a point where the quality of textures, number of polygons etc become irrelevant...


Record a clip of a sim that has passable fidelity in its graphics, do the same with one that has much higher fidelity (that is you can actually see wheels and whatnot reacting to the environment), show the resulting footage to someone and ask them to tell you which sim they feel has better physics. Easy, simple test with an obvious result.

rFactor 2 has a tyre deformation model. rFactor 1 does not. Guess which game feels better to drive in a t-bar cam open-wheeler?
 
I'm beginning to think that you and some people in this thread don't even have pCARS. How can you say that only graphics have been improving when it's the exact opposite ? The physics and particularly the tyres are what have been given most attention lately, simply because a good part of the team is currently on another project.
It has a long way to go like you said, and yet the M3 GT (just an example, there are other brillant cars) is already far better than anything on the market IMO.

Really? how about a little bet then? no, didn't think so.

A little tip Dahlsim, don't take a game so personally. I base my opinion on many different aspects and IMO the physics have a lot of work to be done. Graphics look fine to me.
 
Okay, I stand corrected.

What was the last build you played then and what vehicles did you drive? I'm sure you know the varying degrees of "complete-ness" when it comes to the car physics...
 
no problems.

I have tried every car, over the past two weeks or so. I updated to the latest build perhaps on the weekend, yes the weekend.

I race mainly another service ATM. I do like the direction of pCARS is heading, however the physics don't seem to be where other racing services are. For example I can't take "Road America", or as pCARS call's it "Wisconsin"? at such a high speed. In several different cars I can fly around it much faster then I should be able to.

BTW "Wisconsin" in pCARS is in need of some laser scanning or at least some correct data.
 
Swear to God...

If the physics and engine sounds are as good as the visuals... I'm getting a gaming PC!

You should join the gloriousmasterrace know as PC gamers regardless.


Imo the sound needs the biggest improvement right now, but they just hired a new audio guy so progress on that front should happen soon. Physics too have been improving over the last year since I joined the project, just it's been at a slow rate. Hopefully once all the groundwork is set there will be some major leaps forward instead of small steps.
 
You should join the gloriousmasterrace know as PC gamers regardless.


Imo the sound needs the biggest improvement right now, but they just hired a new audio guy so progress on that front should happen soon. Physics too have been improving over the last year since I joined the project, just it's been at a slow rate. Hopefully once all the groundwork is set there will be some major leaps forward instead of small steps.

I know I'm joining. I'm ever so tired of looking at blurry textures of FM4 and GT5. I'm going to build a $1000 gaming rig when I get another job.

As for the PS:4 and the Xbox: Whateverthehellyoucallit they're staying on the back burner.
 
I just realised T-12 managed to change the thread title without deleting the thread this time. Well done :lol:
 
Really? how about a little bet then? no, didn't think so.

A little tip Dahlsim, don't take a game so personally. I base my opinion on many different aspects and IMO the physics have a lot of work to be done. Graphics look fine to me.
To clarify, my name other there is wesker6664. However, i haven't seen your posts in the various physics/cars/tracks threads ? What's the point in bashing the game on public forums, while you're supposed to contribute to the development by communicating feedback and ideas to the devs ?
And about your "tip", thank you but i play regularly GTR2, Netkar and pCARS. Excuse me to believe that the team that developed my favourite racing game ever (GTR2) is able to improve it in every aspect possible.
BTW, i agree that there's something wrong with Wisconsin. I don't like this track at all, but i know its rather behind in development. The little details of the road surface will be added near the end, once they're sure that everything else is correct.
For now, Suzuka Monza Norschleife Brno and Zolder are really great :)
 
To clarify, my name other there is wesker6664. However, i haven't seen your posts in the various physics/cars/tracks threads ? What's the point in bashing the game on public forums, while you're supposed to contribute to the development by communicating feedback and ideas to the devs ?

Where is he bashing the game ? He's just saying there's still a lot of works to be done, which is true I guess since the game is in pre-alpha ?
 
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