Project R
- Thread starter Mr Latte
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Mr Latte
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- 5,072
- N Ireland
Its frustrating as im itching to get stuck into the physical build. However the main build is on hold regards the multimonitors.
If these arent supported, then already Ive wasted quite a bit of moneys worth in chrome tubing etc. No point worsening that.
Thing is I will rework the design of the frontend completely if multiscreens are out.
So I cant build the main base section for the chair, subs, rear wing as the front end changes the rest of the cockpit.
The delay however always lets my mind go to work, and is why the audio/immersion side of things has evolved. At home Im still messing around with configurations for the audo/tactile/immersion and this is going really well increasing the enjoyment of the games.
Graphic Equaliser / Breakthrough:
Bit of a breakthrough as the graphic equaliser has been ideal for completely effecting not only the amount of control over the feel in vibrations/tactile for the L/R units but of course alter the sound to the L/R speakers. I've been able to decrease sounds like the wind noise, tyre squeel and tone down weird high pitched sounding cars. The great thing with the Behringer 3102 equaliser is it has a light mode that clearly shows what frequencies are being effected and how strongly allowing very simple manual adjustment to increase/decrease the sound those frequencies alter. Take the wind noise it may effect 3-4 frequencies/sliders these blink as the audio uses them and the louder/stronger the brighter they blink. So you easily alter the sliders accordingly. So now Id like to be able to incorporate one of these EQs into a front dash area of the cockpit. Allowing easy/simple changes during gameplay for altering different effects/cars if ever wanted.
Its a very pleasing aspect of the project for me and that is important as this is not just about a cockpit frame anymore but a project/experimental turned hobby. Perhaps yes it's new ground for a cockpit build in a way. I've never seen anyone with such or someone either crazy or is that silly enough to go all out regards this area. All I can say is watch this space, this will take some time yet but other areas will have some nice touches too.
Im open to ideas or questions on the whole audio or tactile side of things if anyone wants to criticise or indeed discuss these areas.
For me its better this thread achieves some discussion/feedback rather than me just continuing with over sized/worded updates on things happening or as is the case waiting to happen.
If these arent supported, then already Ive wasted quite a bit of moneys worth in chrome tubing etc. No point worsening that.
Thing is I will rework the design of the frontend completely if multiscreens are out.
So I cant build the main base section for the chair, subs, rear wing as the front end changes the rest of the cockpit.
The delay however always lets my mind go to work, and is why the audio/immersion side of things has evolved. At home Im still messing around with configurations for the audo/tactile/immersion and this is going really well increasing the enjoyment of the games.
Graphic Equaliser / Breakthrough:
Bit of a breakthrough as the graphic equaliser has been ideal for completely effecting not only the amount of control over the feel in vibrations/tactile for the L/R units but of course alter the sound to the L/R speakers. I've been able to decrease sounds like the wind noise, tyre squeel and tone down weird high pitched sounding cars. The great thing with the Behringer 3102 equaliser is it has a light mode that clearly shows what frequencies are being effected and how strongly allowing very simple manual adjustment to increase/decrease the sound those frequencies alter. Take the wind noise it may effect 3-4 frequencies/sliders these blink as the audio uses them and the louder/stronger the brighter they blink. So you easily alter the sliders accordingly. So now Id like to be able to incorporate one of these EQs into a front dash area of the cockpit. Allowing easy/simple changes during gameplay for altering different effects/cars if ever wanted.
Its a very pleasing aspect of the project for me and that is important as this is not just about a cockpit frame anymore but a project/experimental turned hobby. Perhaps yes it's new ground for a cockpit build in a way. I've never seen anyone with such or someone either crazy or is that silly enough to go all out regards this area. All I can say is watch this space, this will take some time yet but other areas will have some nice touches too.
Im open to ideas or questions on the whole audio or tactile side of things if anyone wants to criticise or indeed discuss these areas.
For me its better this thread achieves some discussion/feedback rather than me just continuing with over sized/worded updates on things happening or as is the case waiting to happen.
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- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
Why are you so fixated on triple monitors? If you really want three, why not go for PC sim racing (and go for 2-DOF motion too). Why do you think that they add so much more to the experience? Personally, I hate the fact that there are always the monitor bezels in the way. That breaks the immersion for me.
- 791
- London
You see more with triple monitors, there is this company (can't remember the name) but they make widescreens, used for triple screening but on one screen.
What does triple screening add?
Well it adds to your FOV, you can see your apex's much more so you know when to turn in. Overall triple screens are great but I prefer large screens to 3 24" screens. (Unless you have triple 40"
then Im interested 
)As for 2DOF, apparently the Rinoseat GTR is the core for their 6DOF & 2DOF motion simulators and they'll be pretty compact, I'm interested!
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Hi, thanks for comments guys.
For me triple screen is a major game enchancing feature. It brings several things to the enjoyment, improving speed, highlighting the graphics, gameplay and it opens up the whole enviroment your playing in. A single screen in comparison is just like your looking out of a box/window. Triple 24" at the right distance fills your whole vision so no need for bigger size as youd have to sit further back to fill your peripheral vision anyways. Also with HDTVs or bigger screens the borders are bigger, with 24" you can easily hide two 0.5" borders behind the centre monitor.
Yes having monitor bezels is a spoiling factor but a small one that for me is worth the many benifits. I have a projector but Id rather experience triple screens than a large one as you still have the box syndrome. As for PC games I just got fed up with PCs and the usual issues involved with hardware/patches etc. Much prefer the easy hassle free console option now and GT5 is also a major reason for this.
Regards the motion options avaiable for PC, they havnt stuck with me at this stage as my experience of them is that they are fun for a while but the constant noise and motion can begin to get annoying once their appeal wears off. Their is a Hexatech simulator 5 mins from where I live if I want motion sim racing. I guess yes fun but playing a game for 3-4 hours being jolted around might not agree with my stomach either so no I wouldnt go for motion.
For me triple screen is a major game enchancing feature. It brings several things to the enjoyment, improving speed, highlighting the graphics, gameplay and it opens up the whole enviroment your playing in. A single screen in comparison is just like your looking out of a box/window. Triple 24" at the right distance fills your whole vision so no need for bigger size as youd have to sit further back to fill your peripheral vision anyways. Also with HDTVs or bigger screens the borders are bigger, with 24" you can easily hide two 0.5" borders behind the centre monitor.
Yes having monitor bezels is a spoiling factor but a small one that for me is worth the many benifits. I have a projector but Id rather experience triple screens than a large one as you still have the box syndrome. As for PC games I just got fed up with PCs and the usual issues involved with hardware/patches etc. Much prefer the easy hassle free console option now and GT5 is also a major reason for this.
Regards the motion options avaiable for PC, they havnt stuck with me at this stage as my experience of them is that they are fun for a while but the constant noise and motion can begin to get annoying once their appeal wears off. Their is a Hexatech simulator 5 mins from where I live if I want motion sim racing. I guess yes fun but playing a game for 3-4 hours being jolted around might not agree with my stomach either so no I wouldnt go for motion.
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- 791
- London
That would be with 6DOF but with 2DOF it's bassically a Buttkicker and some movement, no dipping you to the floor whenever you brake. Subtle but good motion.
I will cosider the motion cockpit if Rinoseat release it (depending on size, price and wiring, I hate loads of wiring around) but if there are 2DOF attatchments to a cockpit that'll work with the PS3 & X-Box 360, Id advise you to get it.
We all know how much you are into immersion and a good feel (from your speeakers) so a 2DOF will do you good.
- 9,765
- OrlandoFL GMT-5
- GTP__Jav
The audio is a big part of that immersed experience, I used to play GT4 with the sub right on the back of the seat and really cranked up, you can really feel like you are in the game. I'm interested in the buttkickers and how they work, I think I'm gonna desing my new my cockpit to incorporate at least 2 of them. Just looking for a cheaper setup than what you have, but really have'nt found much...
Hope we find out soon about the game supporting the triple monitors so we can se the outcome of this awsome project!
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
UK Gamer
Ive seen many videos of what you refer too but it doesnt appeal to me that much. Partly because the effect is always I assume much the same and I question the sheer longterm comfort or enchanced enjoyment it would bring. From a sim aspect I think it is better than it might be for general entertainment. However GT5 wont support it so it isnt an option for me.
As for my own immersion efforts in using directional tactile feedback matching audio. This can be controlled and tailored to the players mood having a really strong bone shaking effect or a mild but still detectable sensation. I agree it too will maybe wear off a little but a bonus of this is that different combinations of cars and tracks do not all feel the exact same so is not just the same repeated sensation. Some tracks in GT5P for instance have a different feeling from the tarmac in places and these diferences are not aparent or felt from standard audio. Many cars sound very different so they actually feel quite different too.
Another benifit although not for sim immersion but entertainment value is how it can be used on other games. Of course it works with the surround sound so it isnt limited to just racing games. For example FPS having explosions etc. These can be felt in the direction of the action and its kinda cool sensation playing those types of games too having things like different gunfire/explosions all being felt from different directions in games like KZ2 etc.
Ive seen many videos of what you refer too but it doesnt appeal to me that much. Partly because the effect is always I assume much the same and I question the sheer longterm comfort or enchanced enjoyment it would bring. From a sim aspect I think it is better than it might be for general entertainment. However GT5 wont support it so it isnt an option for me.
As for my own immersion efforts in using directional tactile feedback matching audio. This can be controlled and tailored to the players mood having a really strong bone shaking effect or a mild but still detectable sensation. I agree it too will maybe wear off a little but a bonus of this is that different combinations of cars and tracks do not all feel the exact same so is not just the same repeated sensation. Some tracks in GT5P for instance have a different feeling from the tarmac in places and these diferences are not aparent or felt from standard audio. Many cars sound very different so they actually feel quite different too.
Another benifit although not for sim immersion but entertainment value is how it can be used on other games. Of course it works with the surround sound so it isnt limited to just racing games. For example FPS having explosions etc. These can be felt in the direction of the action and its kinda cool sensation playing those types of games too having things like different gunfire/explosions all being felt from different directions in games like KZ2 etc.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Aura Tactile
Anyone here on these forums know much of them or have one?
I have seen them used on some rigs before in different forums with some good reviews/comments.
Have a couple coming to compare to the Clarke & Buttkickers so will be interesting as these are quite a bit cheaper, yet another ebay special.
Anyone here on these forums know much of them or have one?
I have seen them used on some rigs before in different forums with some good reviews/comments.
Have a couple coming to compare to the Clarke & Buttkickers so will be interesting as these are quite a bit cheaper, yet another ebay special.
- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
I've got some tactile units out of those old 'Aura Interactor' vests; I open them up and remove the actual transducer and mount them directly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-H-SJAAqec
Old, old tech but the principle is the same (and I doubt if the inner workings are very different for that unit above) and these vests are dirt cheap on eBay. I have two hooked up at the moment to the left and right channels and the results are pretty impressive. They don't offer the range of adjustment that you have with all the Berhinger gear but, for the price, I can't fault 'em!
Once I'm happy with the setup, I'll update my own thread with the results
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-H-SJAAqec
Old, old tech but the principle is the same (and I doubt if the inner workings are very different for that unit above) and these vests are dirt cheap on eBay. I have two hooked up at the moment to the left and right channels and the results are pretty impressive. They don't offer the range of adjustment that you have with all the Berhinger gear but, for the price, I can't fault 'em!
Once I'm happy with the setup, I'll update my own thread with the results
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Yeah the vests used the standard 25W version. I think the PRO models are 50w but to be honest much the same thing, more powerful.
With mixing different Tactile units, and particulary with Clarke Tactile also making audible sound on the L/R I needed the EQ option to enable adjustments. It not only allows you to change things but match up better with the speakers also.
Ive been continuing testing and have discovered a flaw in my previous ideas.
Now going to need 3x Equalisers not two and use these to allow independant settings of not just the L/C/R tactile units but both the L/C/R for Tactile and Speakers.
Each EQ has 2 Channels allowing seperate settings:
EQ 1 = Left Tactile / Left Speaker
EQ 2 = Centre Tactile / Centre Speaker
EQ 3 = Right Tactile / Right Speaker
With mixing different Tactile units, and particulary with Clarke Tactile also making audible sound on the L/R I needed the EQ option to enable adjustments. It not only allows you to change things but match up better with the speakers also.
Ive been continuing testing and have discovered a flaw in my previous ideas.
Now going to need 3x Equalisers not two and use these to allow independant settings of not just the L/C/R tactile units but both the L/C/R for Tactile and Speakers.
Each EQ has 2 Channels allowing seperate settings:
EQ 1 = Left Tactile / Left Speaker
EQ 2 = Centre Tactile / Centre Speaker
EQ 3 = Right Tactile / Right Speaker
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Yeah if the game had individual settings for various ingame effects that would be good.
Still though the difference and variation in many cars quality of audio and how they differently effect Tactile units could be an issue.
The 3102 EQ has really impressed me in how/what you can tinker with.
Still though the difference and variation in many cars quality of audio and how they differently effect Tactile units could be an issue.
The 3102 EQ has really impressed me in how/what you can tinker with.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
UPDATE
Here we go, now using 4x different "Tactile Units"
The "Aura Pro" may replace the Mini Buttkicker LFE depending on how it compares in testing. Seems to give more punch yet with less finesse or varation but I will likely end up using whatever one matches the "Clarke Tactile" the best.
Butttkicker BKA 300 / Mini LFE / Clarke Tactile 209 / Aura Pro
I have completed the auction this week of 2x more Behringer 3102 EQs which means full control/volume/settings for each "Tactile Unit" will be possible.
It may turn out a shame that these old EQs are not digital and can save presets but making changes only takes a matter of seconds anyways.
Do not forsee any further purchases regards audio now, its gone far enough. If this doesnt produce a really immersive game experience then I dont know what will.
The onboard speakers will now consist of previously shown Sony AV models (from Sony DAV 880) running in 7.1 config.
However for the "SIDE SURROUND" I was concerned about before will now incorporate 4x Sony Mini Cubes (Sony DAV 550) using 2x each side of the seat one firing in and one firing forward.
The "BACK SURROUND" will be fixed to the rear spoiler section behind the seat.
Side Surrounds
This will now mean 9 speakers are on the cockpit. Also the additional 2x Subs at the back and with 7x Tactile units onboard.
It is pretty much over the top/crazy and never planned but it is what all the testing and ideas has lead to. As said before it was also important to stick to a Sony theme as much as possible.
So this was kept throughout with all speakers/subs and 3x AV Amps all Sony branded. The look and finish of the cockpit is as important to me as the performance so expect to see something striking.
Other things are happening, just not being shown (yet)
Here we go, now using 4x different "Tactile Units"
The "Aura Pro" may replace the Mini Buttkicker LFE depending on how it compares in testing. Seems to give more punch yet with less finesse or varation but I will likely end up using whatever one matches the "Clarke Tactile" the best.
Butttkicker BKA 300 / Mini LFE / Clarke Tactile 209 / Aura Pro
I have completed the auction this week of 2x more Behringer 3102 EQs which means full control/volume/settings for each "Tactile Unit" will be possible.
It may turn out a shame that these old EQs are not digital and can save presets but making changes only takes a matter of seconds anyways.
Do not forsee any further purchases regards audio now, its gone far enough. If this doesnt produce a really immersive game experience then I dont know what will.
The onboard speakers will now consist of previously shown Sony AV models (from Sony DAV 880) running in 7.1 config.
However for the "SIDE SURROUND" I was concerned about before will now incorporate 4x Sony Mini Cubes (Sony DAV 550) using 2x each side of the seat one firing in and one firing forward.
The "BACK SURROUND" will be fixed to the rear spoiler section behind the seat.
Side Surrounds
This will now mean 9 speakers are on the cockpit. Also the additional 2x Subs at the back and with 7x Tactile units onboard.
It is pretty much over the top/crazy and never planned but it is what all the testing and ideas has lead to. As said before it was also important to stick to a Sony theme as much as possible.
So this was kept throughout with all speakers/subs and 3x AV Amps all Sony branded. The look and finish of the cockpit is as important to me as the performance so expect to see something striking.
Other things are happening, just not being shown (yet)
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- 97
- Madmurdock
Coming along nicely mate. So when you starting putting all this together?
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Hi mate, still mulling over the "Multi Monitors", its holding everything up. 👎
I dont for one moment trust the recent PSM3 article saying they are supported as they were not fully accurate regards other things in their article.
However in a good way this project has improved in several ideas/additions Ive been pondering over the last month or two. Several new ideas/inspiration for the frame were added.
I dont for one moment trust the recent PSM3 article saying they are supported as they were not fully accurate regards other things in their article.
However in a good way this project has improved in several ideas/additions Ive been pondering over the last month or two. Several new ideas/inspiration for the frame were added.
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
So why is it that I seem the only one to have an interest in using lighting to enchance a cockpit, lol eh well come on you lot...
Remember the GT Red/Blue theme shown previously for the subwoofers.
Heres an old idea I had for the pedals.
Clubsports with red at the back
Could be used to work with brake pedal or just as on/off when desired.
Clubsports with red at back and blue at front
I quite like this GT theme.
Other stuff:
So to have a handbrake, just cant decide If Id use it much.
This one is for proper arcade units and should take plenty of abuse...
EDIT Anyone own one of these Flightsticks?
Argos have them in the UK for £25
Is it possible to use the Left hand section as a sequential shifter, if so does it feel okay?
Does the Right main joystick thumb control also work okay in GT's menus?
Remember the GT Red/Blue theme shown previously for the subwoofers.
Heres an old idea I had for the pedals.
Clubsports with red at the back
Could be used to work with brake pedal or just as on/off when desired.
Clubsports with red at back and blue at front
I quite like this GT theme.
Other stuff:
So to have a handbrake, just cant decide If Id use it much.
This one is for proper arcade units and should take plenty of abuse...
EDIT Anyone own one of these Flightsticks?
Argos have them in the UK for £25
Is it possible to use the Left hand section as a sequential shifter, if so does it feel okay?
Does the Right main joystick thumb control also work okay in GT's menus?
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- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
I would imagine that left stick is a throttle with a pot attached, atleast I had a Cougar once and that's how it worked.
Would be good for the new Apache game though, if it's PS3 compatible.
Would be good for the new Apache game though, if it's PS3 compatible.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Your keen mate, the thread gets little feedback. Do64 bit surprised nobody owns one or see the possibility of using the left stick of that as a possible SEQ changer. I will likely buy one to test my curiousity anyways.
Appreciate the interest guys but I understand its hard for people to enjoy this thread with nothing physical being shown. People have little interest it discussing it seems the workings and experimentations with audio/tactile etc. Perhaps most just want to see something nice and go wow that looks cool. Understandable but as your aware my main interest is to go beyond a nice frame/build and thats why Ive focussed so much on those elements thus far. The cockpit as mentioned previously will be built around the audio/display features. The immersion aspects were priorities. No triplescreens will a dramatic loss to the entertainment value.
Regards Multiscreens:
A recent video by one of the guys that has the game already shows NO MULTISCREEN or LAN OPTIONS in GT5 Menus. So its not looking good...
If this isnt supported or an option doesnt appear when consoles are networked or if "Spectator" mode doesnt align then it will be a let down. However Ive been expecting this and dubious for sometime. So if this will be the case then my own intentions are to go with the next best thing. So Ive already been considering a 50" 3DTV and have it sitting very close approx 36" away from the seat position.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Yeah the speakers look feeble but stylish. It was getting combination of size/style/quality to suit the cockpit and preferrably Sony branded.
However they are part of award winning systems in previous What Hifi mags etc. Also the subs provide enough bass to help them out...
As for 3D mode where did you read it was confirmed 30fps for full release?
They have said it would be 60fps I thought?
However they are part of award winning systems in previous What Hifi mags etc. Also the subs provide enough bass to help them out...
As for 3D mode where did you read it was confirmed 30fps for full release?
They have said it would be 60fps I thought?
- 9,765
- OrlandoFL GMT-5
- GTP__Jav
I don't think that's too much the case here, I can only speak for myself by saying that all this tactile units and butkickers are a new thing for me. I am here just sitting back, learning as I read, and trust me I am very much interested on what you are doing, but at the moment the technical level is beyond what I know so I just can't discuss or bring anything usefull to the discussion. But am really glad you decided to do it and take this to the level you are!
I know that there might be some people that feel just like me, so don't hold back because of the lack of feedback. You are doing an incredible job my friend! Keep it up!
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