Project R

[the_greeze]

You know, there comes a point when you need to sit back, take stock of what you're doing and ask yourself; have I gone mad? There is such a thing as too much control (referring to all the amps and EQ's). You're going to spend more time 'dialling in' audio settings than you are actually playing any games!

Time to get on with the real work of building your cockpit, methinks...

 

[nMd_pRo]

Thats my point, cause i really don't make any idea of space, money and time i would need to get a full imersion of tactile sound.
But i know that Mr. Latte do have a really really cool setup.

 

[lunarwolf]

You know, there comes a point when you need to sit back, take stock of what you're doing and ask yourself; have I gone mad? There is such a thing as too much control (referring to all the amps and EQ's). You're going to spend more time 'dialling in' audio settings than you are actually playing any games!

Time to get on with the real work of building your cockpit, methinks...

true, i think it's completely OTT but i think it's also cool that some are willing to experiment with the extreme. some do like to tinker and dial in their set-up. to each is own

 

[the_greeze]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to be disrespectful. As you say, each to their own!
I too love all that tactile gear (and have a fair bit installed in my own cockpit) but hey, enough is enough! lol

 

[grog]

Well I assume Mr Latte must have another cockpit to use in the meantime, If not then this is getting kinda of crazy.

 

[rise888]

It has a second function as a massage chair

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh finally you lot can be bothered to say something, hello again. 👍
Im thinking of doing away with all the stuff and just use a Buttkicker Gamer and Logitech speaker setup, lol.


Err no, and well I guess now is the time to realise that R=RADical.
Im not doing this to be average or normal but to push the boundaries and reach a high level of achievement.

Its exciting for me as Im doing something Ive not seen anyone do before in a technical geeky kind of way regards audio/tactile. As said its part experimental and thats exactly why its got to this point. So far most of the "What Ifs" when implememted have all turned out to be really enchancing for a gaming experience or entertainment perspective.

The reason in sharing this here is to see how it all goes, if some get some inspiration from it thats great. While this is indeed going bonkers
people should take onboard that having even 3way tactile is very entertaining like "jswilli" has put to his chair and enjoys with his surround sound.

About the EQ, these can easily be bypassed, it doesnt need to be adjusted and tweaked all the time. Seriously now, come on do some people here not think I have considered or properly thought this through?

The importance of it all is being able to achieve settings I feel in general are to what I want in getting a good performance and balance between the components used. Once this is achieved then mainly only changing volume settings is needed. Of course to have the ability within the matter of 60 seconds to completely change the audio/tactile is a very much desired objective. Tinkering can be done I suppose with individual games if indeed I want to fuss over things. Nothing stopping me I guess having simple diagrams for the EQ positions to what settings I perhaps enjoyed for lets say a particular title or even indivdual car if need be. If anything part of the fun when its done may be in spending a day doing that and learning what games work best with what settings. Once done its not very difficult at all to move a few sliders.

The benifit of the EQ on all the main channels is to allow three simple things:

1) Adapt a games audio to enchance/improve it or alter it for personal taste.
2) Have individual control of both the audible sound from the speakers/subs and performance of the tactile
3) Balance the varying dynamics from game-game or sources.

Cost wise, well the audio tactile would probably be similar to what a motion setup would of cost. A high end PC these days can be 2K. However this project wont be limited to just simulators, all games and music will get the benifits.

Trust me, when completed then you will realise that this is also about achieving something on a personal level.
Fuelled by childhood and teenage passions combining the love of racing games with AV and a desire for not just owning but making something special to enjoy them on. When you see this, I think you will realise more then guys that the audio/tactile although extensive will match in well with the looks and styling, this should impress just about anyone. Lots of good stuff to see in the future and the thread should start to get more exciting sooner rather than later with actual building.

Questions, opinions and criticisims are all welcomed, feel free.
Enjoy the ride...

 

[jswilli1]

Oh finally you lot can be bothered to say something, hello again. 👍
Im thinking of doing away with all the stuff and just use a Buttkicker Gamer and Logitech speaker setup, lol.


Err no, and well I guess now is the time to realise that R=RADical.
Im not doing this to be average or normal but to push the boundaries and reach a high level of achievement.

Its exciting for me as Im doing something Ive not seen anyone do before in a technical geeky kind of way regards audio/tactile. As said its part experimental and thats exactly why its got to this point. So far most of the "What Ifs" when implememted have all turned out to be really enchancing for a gaming experience or entertainment perspective.

The reason in sharing this here is to see how it all goes, if some get some inspiration from it thats great. While this is indeed going bonkers
people should take onboard that having even 3way tactile is very entertaining like "jswilli" has put to his chair and enjoys with his surround sound.

About the EQ, these can easily be bypassed, it doesnt need to be adjusted and tweaked all the time. Seriously now, come on do some people here not think I have considered or properly thought this through?

The importance of it all is being able to achieve settings I feel in general are to what I want in getting a good performance and balance between the components used. Once this is achieved then mainly only changing volume settings is needed. Of course to have the ability within the matter of 60 seconds to completely change the audio/tactile is a very much desired objective. Tinkering can be done I suppose with individual games if indeed I want to fuss over things. Nothing stopping me I guess having simple diagrams for the EQ positions to what settings I perhaps enjoyed for lets say a particular title or even indivdual car if need be. If anything part of the fun when its done may be in spending a day doing that and learning what games work best with what settings. Once done its not very difficult at all to move a few sliders.

The benifit of the EQ on all the main channels is to allow three simple things:

1) Adapt a games audio to enchance/improve it or alter it for personal taste.
2) Have individual control of both the audible sound from the speakers/subs and performance of the tactile
3) Balance the varying dynamics from game-game or sources.

Cost wise, well the audio tactile would probably be similar to what a motion setup would of cost. A high end PC these days can be 2K. However this project wont be limited to just simulators, all games and music will get the benifits.

Trust me, when completed then you will realise that this is also about achieving something on a personal level.
Fuelled by childhood and teenage passions combining the love of racing games with AV and a desire for not just owning but making something special to enjoy them on. When you see this, I think you will realise more then guys that the audio/tactile although extensive will match in well with the looks and styling, this should impress just about anyone. Lots of good stuff to see in the future and the thread should start to get more exciting sooner rather than later with actual building.

Questions, opinions and criticisims are all welcomed, feel free.
Enjoy the ride...

"The difference between the men and the boys are the price of their toys!" Honestly Tactile Immersion is in its infancy at this point with both Gaming and Movie Industries. They are just now starting to incorporate transducers into movie theater seats (past ~2yrs). Eventually both the gaming and movie industries will "feel" the need to enhance their audio soundtracks to accommodate tactile immersion whether it be 1 or multiple transducers. I bet in 5yrs from now tactile transducers will be part of just about every Home Theater setup. If you look at the "roots" of how things evolve over time you will see how it all has to start somewhere! If you look at how Hot rods evolved over the decades or how Nascar was really started then you will catch my drift. Sure Latte has some money dumped into his project but he "Bargain" shops for it, he also does some research before he buys his next item and he also doesnt drink or smoke (Extra Cash!)!

I have really been enjoying my setup since I added the Clarke's in fact I have been playing both GT5 and BBC2. I started playing the other day and forgot to turn on the transducers, I can tell you I definetely felt something was missing during game play.

 

[Mr Latte]

Well Ive no probs with people questioning the madness in the amount of equipment but its all their for a benefit or purpose.

Anyone that gets involved with tactile will find it can be hit n miss with different games and requires different settings to suit those games. GT5 for example in volume for various channels needs different settings to Shift 2 as each game uses audio and surround differently. That's one of the issues and pains in the backside with it and hence why Im making sure it can be controlled on each of the 7.1 channels.

Your right JS about when the tactile is turned off a game feels almost lifeless and I think its then you realise what all you miss without it. At the same point it's not an OMG out of this world new experience but just an element that combines the audio and visuals together for a much more entertaining and involving experience.

I'm having issues with the new metal base and higher volumes with the tactile just drilled/bolted to the metal. Going to need additional rubber isolators or layer of rubber padding to remove the unwanted reverberations.

 

[supergoop]

Questions, opinions and criticisims are all welcomed, feel free.
Enjoy the ride...

Mr Latte, no disrespect but I've been following your project even before you were "Mr Latte" (at other forums) and before it was called "Project R". I have not been keeping track nor have I read every posts (so forgive me if I am misinformed), but it must've been 2 or more years since you first started posting about it. At first I enjoyed your detail thoughts and aspirations, and even participated in discussions. The pretty magazine-style close-up pictures with out-of-focused backgrounds, even macro shots of a button or a screw here and there were all very teasing and you are obviously quite a photographer.

Ultimately, what are you doing? I guess until you are ready for a final revealing, we won't see the complete picture (and I respect that too). Are you really just enjoying the journey more than the destination? When are you ever going ride this monster you call "Project R"? I am just really curious. What are your plans and ETA? Do you have another decent racing rig that you currently use?

I just don't really understand all the drama. At the end of the day, it is just a racing cockpit (a fancy one) with monitor(s) hooked up to gaming consoles/computers. Perhaps it is the "artistic" side that I am not understanding.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi friend.

Good points.
Yes I have been devloping a cockpit for over 3 years although this thread is only approx a year old. Three things mainly happened which has lead to things at the present time:

1) Firstly the delay of expecting GT5 from 2009-2010. No Confirmation & No Support on Release For Triple Screens. The project was halted regards the frame/style because of that.

2) Tactile/Audio tests, deciding the cockpit would have its own audio and the growth/inclusion of those areas. It became a major factor of the cockpit and buying all that hardware to put my ideas to the test when possible has taken time.

3) Lack of funds to just throw whatever money at it and limited spare time to get stuck in to build it. Also personal issues, married with kid, running a business.

I use a Gamepod Cockpit at home although recently have been using the RS Wheelstand and my full race seat testing the tactile. As your aware Ive also been enjoying triple screens and bought the T500 so to an extent spending some time enjoying all that has distracted me from doing other building.

Plans are to concentrate on the build and design of the frame incorporating it all. Changes had to be made because of the upgrades in audio, like using 5 subs instead of 2 and 10 (maybe/likely 13) tactile instead of 3. So its a much more complexed project now than was ever imagined at the start. Cos of this some of the work I had done for the base and metal frame need redone or altered.

I still need approx £400+ to be spent on materials for this to get the rest of the metal/plastic components. The car parts shown at the start / WRX wings etc will be sprayed soon and thats costing me almost £100. ETA, well I dont know, several months, sorry but 3-4 probably. What I will say is that yes teaser shots will keep coming as things happen and I get ideas when Im doing things so Im not working strictly on a fully fixed design.

In my head it looks really fantastic and beyond anything ever shown on GTP before.
Question is, in reality will it?

 

[Jav]

I love where you have come up to with your cockpit MrLatte, very impressive work indeed!
I'd love to see a full picture of the settup!

 

[Mr Latte]

All in good time thanks Jav and I'm awaiting for you to upload more/new images of yours.

I think part of myself wants to keep it extreme on all levels as a creative challenge.

 

[Mr Latte]

UPDATE

The 3rd (ebay) Sony 1200es arrived today and enables me to power the extra tactile units.

So ordered an additional 3x Aura Pro Tactile Units
Decided that going this far already, what the heck.

Also hope to test having a CENTRE "Mini Buttkicker" on the seat in between the two currently used for L/R. See if its worth having or not.
If not I may use this for the "Buttkicker Brake Option"

So then, their will be L / C / R tactile for the "Pedal Section", "Steering Wheel Section" and the "Seat Section" but the seat section uses full 6.1 surround tactile.

Total of 13 Tactile Units.
6x Aura Pro
3x Clarke TST 209
3x Mini Buttkicker LFE
1x Buttkicker BKA 300

This way my backside, legs & arms will all get L/C/R tactile feedback and it should in theory be more engrossing producing full body contact tactile effects. Should be exciting come the time testing it all out.

 

[the_greeze]

UPDATE
...decided that going this far already, what the heck...

Go on son! Get in there! lol

 

[Mr Latte]

Go on son! Get in there! lol

Its your fault showing those nice photos of yours.

The amp shown close to the start of this thread is the same as the ones you showed me. They are quite noisey with a large fan at the back. I had to return the one I originally got as it only sent sound out the L channel.

Do have a 700w one with 3 way EQ if your interested which hasnt the same noisy fan. Only been used for testing the Subs.

 

[the_greeze]

I still weighing up the amp options at the moment. I erring towards going for 3x 2 channel amps for the Aura Pros and possibly 3x 2 channel EQ's to match (eating my words from this post, aren't I?! lol)

I'd also like to rack-mount most of my gear if possible (I think this will have to be a long-term goal, otherwise: she'll kill me!) Going to start off with one amp and one matching EQ and see how it goes... 👍

Thanks for the offer of the amp but I probably going to try the Intimidation gear I found here and here. Looking for eBay bargains...

 

[Mr Latte]

Like you I had to spend a lot of time thinking over the amplification and tbh you seen the conclusion I ended up with in getting decent but good quality multichannel AV Amplifers with 4 ohm support.

You dont need masses of power for the Aura models, and it should be possible to get a really good but not to old quality unit for £100 - £150. I had the Yamaha AX750 a few years ago and its a good example.

Id question the reliability of some of those DJ amps as their is a lot of budget stuff out their.
For EQ you will go a long way before you get something that betters the Behringer 3102 FBQ.
.

 

[RDB]

Mr Latte you need to finish that now. 2012 is near and everyone knows whats going to happen in 2012

WOW!!! Just wow. That is one hell of a project you got there.

 

[trk29]

Go on son! Get in there! lol

Your pictures of your rig in your signature are not working.

 

[the_greeze]

Your pictures of your rig in your signature are not working.

Photobucket is down...

 

[trk29]

Photobucket is down...

Weird your pics aren't showing up but mine are fine.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte you need to finish that now. 2012 is near and everyone knows whats going to happen in 2012

WOW!!! Just wow. That is one hell of a project you got there.

I knew somebody was going to come along saying somthing like that, deservedly so too.
Yes I agree, when is the idea phase going to stop and the building take place.

The original idea at the start of this thread was for the seat,pedals,wheel sections all to have a single tactile unit. So really its just taking that original idea but combining it with doing the surround tactile and to really highlight the stereo tactile effects throughout. If i didnt add this in now I know later it would of been bugging me to do so. Honestly think thats it now, the only other would be the "Brake Tactile" but I dont know if it would really be felt with all these other units so its on hold for now.

Testing hasnt yet enabled me to have all the tactile running with the subwoofers. Only testing individually or on seperate occasions. So when its all running it should be really superb having the subs combine with the 3 way stereo tactile in seat,pedals,wheel. I know its also going to need some tuning regards the installation to get it all working well with no bad vibrations or annoying reverb. The whole 5ft square base this section will be fitted onto will act as foundation platform to extend the tactile presence felt from the subs and is likley going to be needing attention regards internal speaker materials or foam.

Updated Layout:
Contains the additional 3x Aura Pro for the "Wheel Section" & Centre Mini Buttkicker on the "Seat Section"
The colour coding shows what speaker/subs/tactile operate on the same channels.

 

[jswilli1]

I would like to start off and say that I rented Shift2 and played all of about an hour before putting the game back in the case. The tactile experience was lacking so to say, and the visuals (graphics) were a bit grainy in my opinion. Maybe I will try it again before it goes back to the store? Not to sound like an old fart or anything but the story line and atmosphere of the game were just not my cup of tea!

Now for the positive side of things! I have really really really been enjoying the clarks with GT5 this week. The new seasonal event with the K cars (Japanese, <420PP, 660cc) has been nothing short of fun and getting a "fuller" tactile experience. I have been using the Suzuki Capaccino RM (race modded) at 415PP. The beauty of the event besides the great payouts 90K to 101K credits for roughly 3.5 minutes of racing are the tracks. Rome with the cobblestone, Eiger with the bridge, and the rest with all the raised curbs in just about every corner. The Eifel Kart track is just plain fun to throw the RM Capaccino around. Today my wife decided to play Battlefield Bad company 2 which is great but I also noticed she had fired up both the BK and the Clarks. She said it just is not the same playing anymore without the tactile immersion! She was in a building that was demolished and was sitting in the rubble next to a fire. She could literally feel and hear the flames next to her while she was playing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Shift 2
Settings I think, not 100% certain that I used in Shift 2 are:
General volume HIGH
Car volume MAX
Other sounds MED (reduces the extra loud sound effects on menu also)
Music volume LOW

Only at stage 12 I think but loving the sound of the old BMW used in some classic races.
Early days for me yet but Ive found some very enjoyable tactile moments in the game.

Perhaps try different volume settings but Ive been testing Shift 2 with the additional front L/C/R Aura Pro on the T500 pedals and all combined with whats already on the seat its got more activity than GT5 particulary off track and with kerbs. Also really good with the changing gear and differences in tactile in speeds when going flat out. They both have very different tactile and good in their own ways but many cars in GT5 suck in audio sounds however Shift 2 AI cars seem to be void of much tactile response all but on the back surround channel.

If your not getting much feedback see if the Clarkes on the "Surround" channel rather than the "Stereo" improve things for you.
I remember prefering the Clarkes on the surround channels on GT5 and using the BKs for L/R as the "Surround" channels seemed more active to suit the Clarkes. Everyone may have their own preferences, what I liked best may not in any way be the best preference for everyone.

Check out some music too..
Some AC/DC or rock is great with tactile as well


Other News:
Been doing new sketches for the "redesigned layout" of the frame and its going really well.
Have a good general plan now and think its going to have enough "wow factor".
However the "Chrome Plated" metal tubing seems to be up in price and darn but I can see me needing £300+ for the fittings and tubing required. Gonna take time to get in the funds.

The last 3x Aura Pro arrived for the "Wheel Section" excellent service again from "Parts Express" so all the tactile/audio equipment has been purchased (at last). Still tweaking at home the tactile units on the seat and got sponge/rubber type material to reduce the reverb feedback from the Buttkickers below the seat.

EVERYONE HAVE A NICE EASTER!

 

[Mr Latte]

Well at last I have began in ordering metal components for building the frame.
With increased costs of chrome/alloy tubing and fittings it's not going to be cheap approx double my original or early estimate. Could require as much as £500 - £600 worth in total.

For now ordered only some of the parts for the main frame but all the assumed parts for the metal base surround structure. This will let me define the layout and positioning for the main build.

Hey it's progress but just one step closer...

 

[Jav]

Can't wait to see the final product on this amazing build!

 

[sandboxgod]

So I am correct you now have a Fanatec & T500rs? Did you end up figuring out how to get the Fanatec wheel to use the T500RS pedals? I'd imagine you are trying to avoid lugging the pedals around or did you just decide to stick with clubsports? Perhaps thats a minor detail for a cockpit (choice of wheels to use)

Been eyeballing this thread hoping we can get some more screenshots and stuff happening in due time

 

[Mr Latte]

So I am correct you now have a Fanatec & T500rs? Did you end up figuring out how to get the Fanatec wheel to use the T500RS pedals? I'd imagine you are trying to avoid lugging the pedals around or did you just decide to stick with clubsports? Perhaps thats a minor detail for a cockpit (choice of wheels to use)

Been eyeballing this thread hoping we can get some more screenshots and stuff happening in due time

Ive really taken to the T500 and with enjoying the triple screen experience from GT5. It very much has me considering PC games again using Eyefinity. Id only be using the Fanatec for Forza 4 so have been drawing up some solutions to make changing wheel and pedals quite simple. I don't however have as much excitement for Forza 4 as I do now for a PC and Eyefinity, so it is possible I may sell my Fanatec wheel and Xbox 360s.

Ive always been a huge fan of high quality graphical games and get satisfaction from games that not only play well but are technically advanced or visually impressive. PC easily offers that but at the cost of all the general hassle PCs bring.

 

[sandboxgod]

Yeah I've personally only waited for Forza games to drop to $20 before I purchased them. I always consider those great games but just never gotten super worked up for them. I wish rFactor 2 would come out around Fall!

Btw, was there plans for a motion rig as well? I saw detailed layout for audio, etc here. Reason why I was thinking bout motion rig was due to upcoming Dirt 3. If they can nail FFB, it would seem too me that would be a nice candidate for a motion rig. I'll make sure to check back a few pages

Ah I see what you mean with the Eyefinity tech. Much more cost efficient to go with 3 monitors on PC (only buy the game once, etc). Yeah a fairly mid range PC can outrun the consoles these days. Even my $200ish 560ti has 1 gb in video ram alone. I've personally switched to playing my games on PC (Shift 2 and soon will get F1 2010 for the dx11 support). I run an autohotkey script so I can just my wheel for menus, etc.

Which brings me to another question. Did you plan to have a keyboard mounted nearby? I've found some of these PC based racers seem to not consider people want to use their wheel's d-pads for menu control. But perhaps for those an autohotkey script, etc can just emulate the mouse control instead as well.

For now I plan to just go with a wheel stand but later go with a rig most likely. So I find this thread to be interesting