PS3 General Discussion

[Jedi2016]

I know quite well how HDR works. What you're describing there is the post-process.. converting the HDR image into an LDR image so that it can be displayed properly. With proper setup, this isn't necessary.

That's pretty much the "outside edge" of what HDR will be used for in games. Primarily, it's simply a means of eliminating the lighting limitation. And that doesn't require near the oomph of what you're describing.

The trick is that there isn't just one thing that's "HDR".. it's a very broad definition that covers quite a few different rendering techniques. And not all of them require a separate pass through a frame buffer to impliment.

 

[tha_con]

I know quite well how HDR works. What you're describing there is the post-process.. converting the HDR image into an LDR image so that it can be displayed properly. With proper setup, this isn't necessary.

That's pretty much the "outside edge" of what HDR will be used for in games. Primarily, it's simply a means of eliminating the lighting limitation. And that doesn't require near the oomph of what you're describing.

The trick is that there isn't just one thing that's "HDR".. it's a very broad definition that covers quite a few different rendering techniques. And not all of them require a separate pass through a frame buffer to impliment.

If you watch the Sony Press Conference from last years E3 you will see that what they interpret to be HDR is exactly what I described to you, the preserving of details in both extremely bright and extremely dark situations, not the removing of lighting limitations.

The sole purpose, no matter what anyone wants to say about the "broad definition" of HDR is to provide an image that closely resembles that of what the human eye is capable of seeing. There is not one device out there than can properly capture, nor display, the amount of light and detail information that the eye is capable of interpreting.

With that having been said, I am fully aware of your knowledge in the area me and you have tag-teamed many members on these exact topics, however, HDR has only one end result, no matter how you define it, there is always the same end result. An image produced that is capable of displaying dramatic changes in lighting situations.

And, as I said, this is only capable through HDR, and generally, it is done by rendering a frame in 3 brackets. 1 that is exposed "correctly" which includes an ample amount of light and shadow data, this is what we commonly see today. Then there are 2 other frames, which are rendered in both extremely bright and extremely dark conditions, then the 3 frames are combined to make one full image with HDR. Are there other ways? I don't know, as I've never looked into "other ways" but as I know it, this is the most commonly accepted way to produce HDR images and frames for motion sequences.

The reason for this, is by simply "removing the brightness limitation" you effectively negate the purpose of a shadow, which will become washed out and "grey". And if you want dark vibrant shadows, you effectively remove brilliant light from the equation, and as far as I know, there is no way to do both of those without multiple pass throughs.

HDR is no different from Photoshop, to Maya, to video games, each requires ample data of both lights and darks to be combined into one image, using a minimum of 3 images to combine into one.

 

[Jedi2016]

And, as I said, this is only capable through HDR, and generally, it is done by rendering a frame in 3 brackets. 1 that is exposed "correctly" which includes an ample amount of light and shadow data, this is what we commonly see today. Then there are 2 other frames, which are rendered in both extremely bright and extremely dark conditions, then the 3 frames are combined to make one full image with HDR. Are there other ways? I don't know, as I've never looked into "other ways" but as I know it, this is the most commonly accepted way to produce HDR images and frames for motion sequences.

Ah, okay.. I see where you're coming from now. Yeah, that's how you actually create an HDR image, but I'm pretty sure that's not what the game consoles are doing.

I'll whip up some images in a bit to demonstrate the way I'm looking at HDR utilization in next-gen consoles.

 

[tha_con]

Ah, okay.. I see where you're coming from now. Yeah, that's how you actually create an HDR image, but I'm pretty sure that's not what the game consoles are doing.

I'll whip up some images in a bit to demonstrate the way I'm looking at HDR utilization in next-gen consoles.

Sweetness, get on it then!! haha.

I do HDR photo's all the time, but I've never done anything as far as a render or CG sequence...I should try it sometime 💡

 

[Jedi2016]

Wasn't as easy to demonstrate as I thought... with a game model like Ughzan here, it's hard to light him in a "realistic" fashion because he's just not built or textured for it. Likewise for a "real" CG model, trying to set it up in a game-style way.. hehe.

Anyway, here's a couple of pics. Note that these aren't actually "HDR images" per se, they just impliment features of HDR. The first one demonstrates more realistic lighting by removing the current limitations in game lighting (note how "flat" the standard-lit one is). The second demonstrates using an HDR image for reflections in place of a standard JPEG. Think of this applied to, say... a car, in GT5. (note: The AA problem in the HDR reflection image is a limitation of LightWave's AA combined with the high contrast image.. I could explain, but it's a bit technical.. hehe).

 

[slackbladder]

A report from the BBC says Sony are waiting on industry consortiums to finalise the spec of the hardware Sony will use. Presumably this means their Blu-Ray. It could lead to a delay in its release (which looks entirely likely).
news.bbc.co.uk

 

[Robin]

Yeah I read that BBC report to, Sony are really going to have to find a way of keeping people interested if the launch has been pushed back..... its a pity they just cant do a worldwide release at a set date..... we havent even seen the finished console yet.....the one at TGS was just a concept...but will look similar in the end.

 

[Solid Lifters]

A report from the BBC says Sony are waiting on industry consortiums to finalise the spec of the hardware Sony will use. Presumably this means their Blu-Ray. It could lead to a delay in its release (which looks entirely likely).
www.bbc.news.co.uk

Damn, I wish this link was working for me.

I've been reading reports about this all day, and yesterday. But, nothing was credible because what was being reported wasn't true. They said they were waiting for the final spec on Blu-ray, which was finished in late December and announced at the Las Vegas Show in early January. BBC, I guess, is reporting what others have reported already, which was not an official statement from Sony.

 

[Jay]

That link didn't work for me either, after searching I found one that doe's.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4731128.stm

 

[KENJIusa]

check this out guys: http://www.ps3portal.com/ps3/article/295.html

 

[Solid Lifters]

That link didn't work for me either, after searching I found one that doe's.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4731128.stm

Cool, thanks. 👍

But, it still doesn't say what specs specifically; damn. I can imagine it has something to do with AACS.

Read about AACS... http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/69834

 

[tha_con]

Yenno, you guy's really shouldn't believe everything you read in the "news". It's bad for you.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Yenno, you guy's really shouldn't believe everything you read in the "news". It's bad for you.

OK, so were not suppose to believe a Sony spokesman who claims the PS3 is still scheduled for a Spring release, but there could be a delay because of "final specs?"

 

[Sprite]

HDR is a form of lighting and creating reflections, by using image based lighting IE a HDRI or High Dynamic Range Image, this image contains data that have a greater Ilumination data than can be reproduced by a screen or captured using an SLR camera with a single exposure. This extra information from the brightest light to the darkest shadow is then used to light the scene and also for reflections. (basics without going into image qualitys and what not )

In regards to the BD reports, Sonys and all the BD corp have had the standard granted with a temporary license along with HD-DVD (they have had the same problems), so yeh they have had a delay but i cant see this being the cause, on the other hand Nvidia have mentioned that they have not yet recived payment for the first batch of the RSX's and they are waiting till they end of their finacial year (which is April)

 

[tha_con]

OK, so were not suppose to believe a Sony spokesman who claims the PS3 is still scheduled for a Spring release, but there could be a delay because of "final specs?"

Considering that every other sony spokesmen has denied any such rumors or speculation regarding specifications or launch dates, or even delays for that matter, this is just recycled bs news.

Again, when more than one source reports on it, I'll believe it, but BBC News, or Kikizo? No.


I just find it hard to believe that BBC news has "special privledges" to gain access to this information wihle:

IGN
Gamespot
GameFaqs
GameInformer
PSM
OPM

and other select media sources, all have not had the privledge of such wonderful information.

Most noteably, Famitsu hasn't had any say on it, and I take THEIR word over anyone, because they RARELY make any false reports or rumors, they are straight up truth.

Please, don't turn this into another one of your debates, we all know how THOSE turn out (*cough* Blu-Ray HD-DVD "unified standard")

 

[Tenacious D]

It's possible that Sony is playing a psychological warfare game. Not on developers or Microsoft, but on us buyers.

Companies can use their own version of military intelligence to determine what a competitor is doing, to track chip contracts and sales, software contracts and all that, so Microsoft has a pretty good idea what Sony is up to as far as when the PS3 will be out.

However the best thing Sony can do is keep people guessing that the PS3 will be out before summer to hurt XBox360 sales. They aren't any more moral than Microsoft, in fact both are rather nasty companies.

Personally, I tend to think from news that NVidia hasn't even been paid yet for their RSX chips, meaning Sony doesn't have them yet, along with the vague remarks of "intended target dates" leads me to believe that Sony is shooting for a fall release for those of us that count, in the U.S. and Europe. Hopefuly not spring of 2007 for our Euro friends which has been speculated!

And frankly I don't mind so much waiting another five months or so for a system which is better for all of us. I'd rather have it in the spring obviously, but do it and the games right and let that be the deciding factor.

And tha_con, there's plenty of information on the net in game sites everywhere which indicate that the PS2 does indeed have loading issues as well as texture skimping, even to using 4 bit grayscale vs the up to 24 bit (!) texture capacity of the GameCube. Google is your friend.

To be sure the PS2 developers can squeeze superb graphics out of high polygon models, but those textures are what you need to differentiate wood from stone or metal. Developers have complained forever about the lack of VRam capacity for the PS2, and I'd really rather not have any such gripes for a super system, whether a 360 (which I'm not interested in right now) or PS3.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Considering that every other sony spokesmen has denied any such rumors or speculation regarding specifications or launch dates, or even delays for that matter, this is just recycled bs news.

Again, when more than one source reports on it, I'll believe it, but BBC News, or Kikizo? No.


I just find it hard to believe that BBC news has "special privledges" to gain access to this information wihle:

IGN
Gamespot
GameFaqs
GameInformer
PSM
OPM

and other select media sources, all have not had the privledge of such wonderful information.

Most noteably, Famitsu hasn't had any say on it, and I take THEIR word over anyone, because they RARELY make any false reports or rumors, they are straight up truth.

Please, don't turn this into another one of your debates, we all know how THOSE turn out (*cough* Blu-Ray HD-DVD "unified standard")

I wasn't attempting to start an argument. I was just pointing out the ignorance of your statement.

 

[Omnis]

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD unification has more to do with general consumers than uber gamers. It makes all the sense in the world to go to BBC, one of the world's largest and most reputable media giants.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD unification has more to do with general consumers than uber gamers. It makes all the sense in the world to go to BBC, one of the world's largest and most reputable media giants.

There's more than one source for this info...

 

[slackbladder]

Considering that every other sony spokesmen has denied any such rumors or speculation regarding specifications or launch dates, or even delays for that matter, this is just recycled bs news.

Again, when more than one source reports on it, I'll believe it, but BBC News, or Kikizo? No.


I just find it hard to believe that BBC news has "special privledges" to gain access to this information wihle:

IGN
Gamespot
GameFaqs
GameInformer
PSM
OPM

and other select media sources, all have not had the privledge of such wonderful information.

Most noteably, Famitsu hasn't had any say on it, and I take THEIR word over anyone, because they RARELY make any false reports or rumors, they are straight up truth.

Please, don't turn this into another one of your debates, we all know how THOSE turn out (*cough* Blu-Ray HD-DVD "unified standard")

Gamespot have a report from Monday - www.gamespot.com
IGN have it too - www.ign.com
Of course whether it's true or not is another matter. But considering a Sony PR person (didn't specify male or female) was quoted in the articles it is reasonably reliable.
As for the price being $900? Nonsense. Merrill Lynch got their sums wrong! It's actually $800 when you add it up. Look here for info and a pdf of their report.
All this rumour and counter rumour is doing my head in. I think I'll just ignore all the game sites etc until E3 or whatever the next big gaming event is!

 

[kikie]

The Belgian importer said that the PS3 will cost around € 600.

 

[Laurence5905]

I' think I'll be 30 by the time GT5 hits the streets but by then we can enjoy it in 1080p when a TV that suports it will exist. also by then we should be looking at Xbox 720 or 900.

A TV that natively supports 1080p is available -- the Samsung HL-R5078W. I just bought one, and it's unbelievable! (It's a 50-inch screen. They offer the same television in 56- and 63-inch screens.) Now all I need is something that will actually send it a real 1080p signal. This TV automatically "upconverts" every signal it receives to 1080p. But it will tell you what the original signal-quality was before "upconversion," and I have nothing that will produce a real 1080p signal, except for my PC.

The PS2 claims it can do 1080i with GT4, and it is actually feeding the television a 1920x1080 interlaced signal. But when you look closely, you can tell that the picture the PS2 is putting out is actually a 480p picture that it's internally "upconverting" to 1080i, which my TV then "upconverts" to 1080p. So the PS2 doesn't really do 1080i, only 480p. Which isn't surprising at all, considering its age -- the surprising thing is that it will do any HD output at all! But, despite all the conversions going on, it's still the best-looking picture I've ever seen out of my console, that's for sure! Hopefully the PS3 will be a true 1080p picture... And hopefully GT5 will come out very soon after the PS3 is released -- although the last thing I heard was late 2007! ARRRGGHHH!!!

 

[Solid Lifters]

A TV that natively supports 1080p is available -- the Samsung HL-R5078W. I just bought one, and it's unbelievable! (It's a 50-inch screen. They offer the same television in 56- and 63-inch screens.) Now all I need is something that will actually send it a real 1080p signal. This TV automatically "upconverts" every signal it receives to 1080p. But it will tell you what the original signal-quality was before "upconversion," and I have nothing that will produce a real 1080p signal, except for my PC.

The PS2 claims it can do 1080i with GT4, and it is actually feeding the television a 1920x1080 interlaced signal. But when you look closely, you can tell that the picture the PS2 is putting out is actually a 480p picture that it's internally "upconverting" to 1080i, which my TV then "upconverts" to 1080p. So the PS2 doesn't really do 1080i, only 480p. Which isn't surprising at all, considering its age -- the surprising thing is that it will do any HD output at all! But, despite all the conversions going on, it's still the best-looking picture I've ever seen out of my console, that's for sure! Hopefully the PS3 will be a true 1080p picture... And hopefully GT5 will come out very soon after the PS3 is released -- although the last thing I heard was late 2007! ARRRGGHHH!!!

Actually, the PS2 does better than 480, but not by much. And yeah, GT4 is only 540 which is deinterlaced via software to 1080i. You'll be surprised how much gets advertised as "high-def" but is actually deinterlaced show from 480.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Sony Denies Delay Rumor

Sony says that the games for PS3 are ready, but other PS3 developers Konami, Namco Bandai, and Capcom have are not committing to the PS3 official Spring launch.


Apparently, PS3 developers Konami, Namco Bandai, and Capcom are not committing to any PS3 Spring launch. Also, Square Enix, a major player in the video game market, has no plans to launch titles for PS3 this spring.

However, Sony tells GameSHOUT that they are launching with or without 3rd party game developers. They told us this morning that the Spring launch is unchanged. However, they would not comment on what markets would be available.

Merrill Lynch reported last week that the Sony PS3 may cost as much as $900 to manufacture, and it

might delay the launch for six to twelve months.

The cost to make the PS3 is expensive. The Blu-ray itself is $300, and the cell chip is another $200. That's $500 in cost alone, which is probably the reason Merrill Lynch is reporting a possible $900 figure to cover all manufacturing and other related costs.

Microsoft is losing money on the Xbox 360. If Sony were to launch the PS3 lower than manufacture costs, they wouldn't be the first video game company. Which has many investors eager to sell stock if their going to lose rather than profit.

It just seems too much of a rush-job to get the PS3 out the door, but if Sony has games for the PS3, what are the titles? Who made them? Sony declined comment, but made it clear once again that the PS3 Spring launch is on.

 

[Maven]

...although the last thing I heard was late 2007! ARRRGGHHH!!!

*nods* That would seem to fit PD's pattern of releasing a GT every two years (the four year gap between 3 and 4 excepted). I imagine that if the PS3 launches sometime in 2006, GT5 will probably be out in summer of 2007.

 

[Tenacious D]

Hrm... Solid Lifter's post above is curious, because since the Sega Genesis, game consoles have initially cost way more to manufacture at launch than they were sold for. I'll quote some figures from memory.

I believe the Sega Genesis originally sold for $300, and cost about $375 to manufacture at launch.

I think the Super Nintendo sold for over $300 ($330?) and cost about $430 to manufacture.

The 3DO sold for $699 and cost about $800.

The Sega Saturn sold for $499 and cost about $650.

The Sony Playstation sold for $299 and cost about $400.

The XBox sold for $299 and cost about $400.

I think I caught a blurb by Merrill Lynch Japan saying the estimated cost of the PS3 will be $550 or so. That makes the $399 launch price seem about right, and perhaps no Premium package, leaving it up to us to build our own premium gaming rig around the core PS3 system.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Sony PS3 Delay Rumors part: V


It's kind of becoming this sick fascination, a gadgety train wreck, if you will, constantly wondering about the status of the PlayStation 3, and whether it'll launch in any reasonable time frame to compete with the Xbox 360 in ours, the US market. Well, according to a Sony Computer Entertainment Japan spokesman who spoke to Kyodo News, the PlayStation 3 could be delayed until fall due to a "failure to set the specifications of the Blue-ray [sp] DVD technology," by the end of 2005, as reported by the AFP. We're not sure whether this refers to the AACS delays we saw last week, but if so they've really got nothing to worry about since the AACS forum all but announced an interim plan so as not to delay anyone's launches. And if not, well, it's their format and their own damn fault -- either way, according to Hirokazu Hamamura, president of Enterbrain Inc. in Japan, had an interesting thing to say: "Sony has not begun taking orders early this month, that means that it would be difficult for the company to begin sales in May." Well, there you go, then.

Note:Odd thing is, Sony already announced the final specs for the BD players, but not the BDRs. Could we see a BDR in the PS3 instead of a BD? Doubtful... So then, what's with the announcement about the delays of the final specs for the Blu-ray drives? AACS is done, and finished, according to them. So, what's up with all this talk?


Japan News On Sony PS3 Delay


Feb. 25, 2006
TOKYO –– Sony may have to delay the long-awaited launch of its PlayStation 3 console until the autumn because certain specifications were not set on time, a report said Saturday.

The launch could be delayed from the scheduled debut in the spring because of the failure to set the specifications of the Blue-ray DVD technology, a Sony Computer Entertainment spokesman said, according to Kyodo News.

The Blu-ray DVD technology is “indispensable” for PlayStation 3 consoles which feature high-definition, movie-quality graphics, the Sony spokesman reportedly said.
A group of about 80 Blu-ray DVD manufacturers, including Sony Corp. and Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co., failed to set specifications for the advanced DVD format by the end of last year, Kyodo said.

Mass manufacturing is finally set to begin at the end of the month, the news agency said, citing industry sources.

Officials at the producer of the popular PlayStation game console series could not be reached for comment Saturday.

Sony Computer Entertainment has apparently been behind schedule in taking orders for the new PlayStations from retailers, Kyodo said.

Hirokazu Hamamura, president of Enterbrain Inc, a leading publisher of computer game magazines, told Kyodo that it would be difficult for Sony to release the new console as scheduled.

“Sony has not begun taking orders early this month, that means that it would be difficult for the company to begin sales in May,” he told Kyodo.

Sony is now likely to shift its focus on product sales from the spring to the year-end sales period, promotion for which begins in October, industry analysts told Kyodo.

The expected delay may pressure the Sony group’s earnings, Kyodo added.

The PlayStation series has been one of the major pillars of the Sony group’s earnings.
Total global shipments of its PlayStation 2 game console had exceeded 100 million units by last November since its launch in March 2000.

The original PlayStation took nine years and six months to clock up similar numbers.

 

[Jedi2016]

The report's a little old, is all. People were all over the "OMG Blu-Ray is delayed!!" news, and somehow managed to completely overlook the news that it was back on track within a few days. The only thing they were waiting on was the finalization of the AACS stuff, which was finalized last week. And Sony has since said that the PS3 is still right on schedule for a spring launch (they said this just a couple days ago in response to that idiotic report from Merrill Lynch).

 

[Solid Lifters]

The report's a little old, is all. People were all over the "OMG Blu-Ray is delayed!!" news, and somehow managed to completely overlook the news that it was back on track within a few days. The only thing they were waiting on was the finalization of the AACS stuff, which was finalized last week. And Sony has since said that the PS3 is still right on schedule for a spring launch (they said this just a couple days ago in response to that idiotic report from Merrill Lynch).

Yeah, I know. But, this is all NEW info. Not the ML BS stuff. This has yet another Sony spokesman, the second BTW, to say there "MAY BE" delays with the system. One, can be seen as BS, but now two have come out to say it? Uh-uh, it can't be BS this time. Plus, Kyodo news broke this story, and they are very reliable.

 

[LaBounti]

A TV that natively supports 1080p is available -- the Samsung HL-R5078W. I just bought one, and it's unbelievable! (It's a 50-inch screen. They offer the same television in 56- and 63-inch screens.) Now all I need is something that will actually send it a real 1080p signal. This TV automatically "upconverts" every signal it receives to 1080p. But it will tell you what the original signal-quality was before "upconversion," and I have nothing that will produce a real 1080p signal, except for my PC.

Thats the second time someone replied to my post from may 2005. 9 months ago. I already stated not too long after that about native 1080p tv's but there were few back then and all were very expensive.