PS3 General Discussion

It's always a good sign when the worst looking games are still awesome. ;)

However there's one thing I don't like. Sony has a 60% videogame marketshare. That's not good news to me. In order for everyone to benefit in the videogame/console wars, there has to be a much closer margin among the three competitors, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony. This forces everyone to dig down and give us 110% of what we want in a game or console. Sony's slice of the market is approaching Microsoft's computer software monopoly, and this is the main reason MS has YET to deliver an excellent version of Windows. Just look at XP. If you upgrade your PC a couple of times, it locks up and you have to get permission from Microsoft to re-access your own darn computer! :grumpy:

If we could rip Windows out by the roots and never look back, would XP be this stupid and STILL full of security holes?

I hope for the sake of Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft - and us - that the 360 does very well this summer, fall, and Christmas season. And that their darn OS faces a real competition soon. ;)
 
Well, what's going to happen is that the X360 is going to need a good supply of games. Unforunately (and forunately), Gears Of Wars won't be coming out near the PS3 launch and the whole Halo 3 same day crap is probably more realistic now.

While the X360 may be lower this Christmas, it'll still have tough competition on outselling the new PS3.
 
Tenacious D
This forces everyone to dig down and give us 110% of what we want in a game or console.

You don't think the PS3 is 110%?

Now, I'm sure people are going to call me foolish and naive (or maybe worse), but this is one reason why I tend to prefer Sony over Microsoft. (If you want to generalize, you could possibly say Japanese companies over American companies) They seem to have different philosophies when they come to their products...

Microsoft seems to follow a 'just enough' philosophy, giving out a mediocre product instead of pushing themselves technologically. The Xbox and X360 are using tried and true technology that we've seen before. Sony, on the other hand, has a reputation as a technological innovator to maintain. They've gone to a lot of expense to give us something revolutionary.

Now, I know you're going to tell me that Sony is just as evil and cutthroat as MicroSoft and maybe you're right. But the Japanese just seem to have a different ethic than Americans in some ways...
 
They are just as cut throat, sure, but also you are right, they do seem to be more innovative, looking for that technical step forward in more ways than just more power with what we've got.
 
Well... yeah, I must say the PS3 is kind of 200% of what we want. :D

Not to mention that "Playstation HUB" or whatever it will be called - which I think is a catchy name - is going to be awesome, since it has free and pay levels, and Sony is indicating that the free service isn't going to be just worthless email and chatrooms. The whole PS3 constellation is looking excellent, and better by the week.

Microsoft is trying. Not real hard, but they're showing signs of getting a clue. I do have to say that I like the XBox, but it's showing signs that it's a Microsoft product, basically a gaming PC, as it looses my steering controller a few times a day, and once in a while it crashes. Sigh, whatta surprise. ;)

However I am afraid that Sony is waging all out war on Microsoft. Hopefully Microsoft has hired some game saavy people from Sega and Nintendo and will know how to position the 360, 360 Live and some goodies to keep the game buying public aware that they exist and are remotely cool when that PS3 Kong comes busting into the world's gaming shelves. The coming 360 games look very good, and will share many titles with the PS3, but Sony destroyed Sega's console ambitions which I really resent. I'll never forgive Sony for that. Hopefully Microsoft develops that samurai ego that the Japanese companies have, and will do whatever it takes to keep in there.
 
Well for me MS seem to release lackluster products altogether, take their OS, if they had competition from other easy to use OS's then im sure MS would not be the company they are now. I back this up by looking at Firefox and IE, FF is far better than IE (IMO) and alot of people are adopting it now as there main browser, even PC companys are taking to installing it before they ship their product. They never put any effort into making a standout product.

Also the games for the box and 360 havent inspired me one bit, PGR in all incarnations has not been upto scratch, they may look nice and have the big red F in them, but this wont make me buy an arcade racer, Halo to me just sucks and is only fun to play while playing it in multiplayer, these are the only standout titles for MS (IMO) and this makes me wonder why people buy them.

Sony seem to have all the nice games and nintendo seem to have all the really cool and ultra fun games, Sony have GT series, and TOCA two of the best games for racing on console (yes the box has TOCA too) and Everybodys golf (wich IMO blows Tiger Woods out of the bunker) Sony has even had games like Kurushi & Jumping Flash. Nintendo have all there ususal products like Mario Kart and Zelda, along with brining titles to the front like Monkey Ball.

So this is my chart to sum up each console :)

Sony Playstation 1/2/3:-
  • Good selection of AAA titles (along with alot of Cr*p ones too)
  • Good selection of Must have titles (MGS, GT, FF, GTA & alot of Japanese RPG's)
  • A few quirky and genre defining games

Nintendo NES/SNES/N64/GC:-
  • Great selection of AAA titles
  • Great selection of must have games and FUN (incl. Mario kart, Mario (all), Super Smash, Viewtiful Joe, Zelda (all) & Doshin the Giant)

Microsoft X-Box/360:-
  • Ok selection of AAA titles (although most come out on PS and sooner too)
  • OK selection of Must have titles (Halo (all) & PGR (all))

So from my point of view thats why Sony do so well, and why Nintendo seem to hang in (yes the Gameboy has seen them right finacially), but they make FUN and innovative games (can seem a bit childish at time (but we are all children at heart ;) )), the only thing MS seem to have alot of and do well with are American Sports games, and since im Niether into these sports nor an American I see no need to play them, but people love them and thats cool, but if MS has only these games to keep them aflote, then thats not cool, surley they will have to get their hands on some more AAA titles than just relying upon sports and FPS?

I also want to put to you guys, dont you think Sony need to start puting more games out that are like Parappa The Rapper and Jumping Flash (one of my all time fraves)? Because I have noticed a trend, that there are more and more games that are FPS, Racing, 3rd person stealth & sport, what has happend to FUN games like Micro Machines, Parappa The Rapper & Vib Ribbon? when they appear they seem to fade quickly because "Kill em all with a big gun, but sneak up on um and cut um down 6100" comes along, yes we have had cool games like Buzz, Sing Star and Shadow of Colossus but to me thats just a drop in the ocean of stagnent rubbish.
 
Maven
You don't think the PS3 is 110%?

Now, I'm sure people are going to call me foolish and naive (or maybe worse), but this is one reason why I tend to prefer Sony over Microsoft. (If you want to generalize, you could possibly say Japanese companies over American companies) They seem to have different philosophies when they come to their products...

Microsoft seems to follow a 'just enough' philosophy, giving out a mediocre product instead of pushing themselves technologically. The Xbox and X360 are using tried and true technology that we've seen before. Sony, on the other hand, has a reputation as a technological innovator to maintain. They've gone to a lot of expense to give us something revolutionary.

Now, I know you're going to tell me that Sony is just as evil and cutthroat as MicroSoft and maybe you're right. But the Japanese just seem to have a different ethic than Americans in some ways...
I don't know about corporate ethics between the Japanese and the Americans. I would think it's about the same. Between Microsoft and Sony though, since Microsoft has such a ruthless reputation(The government tried to divide them up, remember?), I'd say I'm down with Sony more. Japanese companies do seem to take more risks in their ventures, especially Sony. American companies tend to play it safe, I think.


Tenacious D
The coming 360 games look very good, and will share many titles with the PS3, but Sony destroyed Sega's console ambitions which I really resent. I'll never forgive Sony for that.
I was a fan of the Dreamcast also, but I don't think it was Sony alone that destroyed SEGA. When some of us were excited about the Dreamcast, many of the people I knew who were gamers totally ignored Dreamcast. I think it was a combination of the reputation SEGA had built of themselves versus the Sony's with their first Playstation. I'm still dissapointed as you are. Dreamcast was the only SEGA console I had ever owned, but I really liked it and still have many games for it. It's a keeper.

Tenacious D
Hopefully Microsoft develops that samurai ego that the Japanese companies have, and will do whatever it takes to keep in there.
So many people are counting out Microsoft and X360, I wouldn't. They have so much $$$ riding on this, they are not going to just fade away. They probably lost so much, financially, with the first Xbox. I believe that they will still be there to compete with Playstation 4.

Added:
sprite
I also want to put to you guys, dont you think Sony need to start puting more games out that are like Parappa The Rapper and Jumping Flash (one of my all time fraves)? Because I have noticed a trend, that there are more and more games that are FPS, Racing, 3rd person stealth & sport, what has happend to FUN games like Micro Machines, Parappa The Rapper & Vib Ribbon? when they appear they seem to fade quickly because "Kill em all with a big gun, but sneak up on um and cut um down 6100" comes along, yes we have had cool games like Buzz, Sing Star and Shadow of Colossus but to me thats just a drop in the ocean of stagnent rubbish.
I agree. I've been playing Nintendo games alot. I wonder if it's because of the "FUN" factor that you are talking about.
 
Tenacious D
The coming 360 games look very good, and will share many titles with the PS3, but Sony destroyed Sega's console ambitions which I really resent. I'll never forgive Sony for that.

What?

The only reason the Dreamcast failed was becase Sega FAILED to hype the machine up at all. There were a LOT of people who didn't even know the Dreamcast was OUT or who even cared about it, and that was BEFORE Sony started talking about the PS2.

Point blank, Sega dug themselves a grave more than anyone else. First they released a horrible add on (the Sega CD). Then they follow it up with ANOTHER unsupported horrible add on (the Sega 32X). THEN they follow up THAT with an expensive console (the Sega Saturn) with games that weren't really groundbreaking (let's face it, the Saturn was okay, but it didn't have what it needed to be impressive). Then Sony released the PS1, lower price point, and a hell of a lot more games (plus some great flagship titles, Tomb Raider, IQ, Parappa the Rappa, etc) and that sold them.

If anyone is at fault for Sega's "downfall" it is most defiantely Sega and no one else.
 
LOok SeE Big 720p res shots of Rachet and clanck :)

Rachet & Clanck



Motorstorm

 
Well for me MS seem to release lackluster products altogether, take their OS, if they had competition from other easy to use OS's then im sure MS would not be the company they are now. I back this up by looking at Firefox and IE, FF is far better than IE (IMO) and alot of people are adopting it now as there main browser, even PC companys are taking to installing it before they ship their product. They never put any effort into making a standout product.

What do MS's past products have to do with their console? Nothing. No effort? What about xbox live?

Also the games for the box and 360 havent inspired me one bit, PGR in all incarnations has not been upto scratch, they may look nice and have the big red F in them, but this wont make me buy an arcade racer, Halo to me just sucks and is only fun to play while playing it in multiplayer, these are the only standout titles for MS (IMO) and this makes me wonder why people buy them.

Launch games are usually quite weak, and it's taken the 360 time to get going, but some better stuff is on the way I guess. PGR3 is superb though. Halos good fun too. And there are more standout titles on the xbox then you care to give it credit for.

Sony seem to have all the nice games and nintendo seem to have all the really cool and ultra fun games, Sony have GT series, and TOCA two of the best games for racing on console (yes the box has TOCA too) and Everybodys golf (wich IMO blows Tiger Woods out of the bunker) Sony has even had games like Kurushi & Jumping Flash. Nintendo have all there ususal products like Mario Kart and Zelda, along with brining titles to the front like Monkey Ball.

Exactly why did you mention Toca when it's a multiplatform game?

I've taken the liberty to make your chart more truthful...

Removed all the old consoles because frankly, no one cares anymore.

Sony Playstation 2:- (removed ps3 because it ISNT OUT)

* Good selection of AAA titles (God of war, GT, Devil May Cry, Ico, Shadow of Col etc etc)
* A mountain of crap games


Nintendo GC:-

* Not enough Games, though some great AAA titles
* Not enough bloody games
*Zelda, oh yes!


Microsoft X-Box:- (grouping the 360 and xbox doesnt really work tbh, as the 360 has only just come out)

* Good selection of AAA titles (not as many as the ps2)
*A mountain of crap games

MS 360:-

*Poor selection of games, because it's only just come out
*Alot of rush released software
*Though it has Oblivion, which is better then 99% of games on other machines.


So from my point of view thats why Sony do so well, and why Nintendo seem to hang in (yes the Gameboy has seen them right finacially), but they make FUN and innovative games (can seem a bit childish at time (but we are all children at heart )), the only thing MS seem to have alot of and do well with are American Sports games, and since im Niether into these sports nor an American I see no need to play them, but people love them and thats cool, but if MS has only these games to keep them aflote, then thats not cool, surley they will have to get their hands on some more AAA titles than just relying upon sports and FPS?

What? Nintendo hang on because they have an army of dedicated fans who will lap up any gimmick they release, and they know how to cash in. Pokemon, Nintendogs, Gameboy etc etc. Also your American sports thing is untrue in my experience.

I also want to put to you guys, dont you think Sony need to start puting more games out that are like Parappa The Rapper and Jumping Flash (one of my all time fraves)? Because I have noticed a trend, that there are more and more games that are FPS, Racing, 3rd person stealth & sport, what has happend to FUN games like Micro Machines, Parappa The Rapper & Vib Ribbon? when they appear they seem to fade quickly because "Kill em all with a big gun, but sneak up on um and cut um down 6100" comes along, yes we have had cool games like Buzz, Sing Star and Shadow of Colossus but to me thats just a drop in the ocean of stagnent rubbish.

There's lots of great games, it's just whats popular atm.

Personally I'd take "gore-fest shooter 8: With added gore" over vib ribbon anyday.

yes we have had cool games like Buzz, Sing Star

Those were not cool. They sucked huge arse. I can't believe you grouped those games with the work of art that shadow is, it's like grouping the mona lisa with the beano.

Odd how that motorstorm piccy doesn't look anywhere near as good as the "in game demo" shown before...

Aww I seem like such a kill joy, i am still looking forwards to the ps3. Honest. I'm sure it's gonna be very good.
 
Ladies and gentleman...it's ripping time!!!!

code_kev
What do MS's past products have to do with their console? Nothing. No effort? What about xbox live?
Right, a service largley based originally off of their MSN internet premium service, which enabled you to see when other friends were playing Microsoft games online, swapped names, few added integrated features (because it's not a PC) and then sold for an annual charge. I'm sure they took a long time to think of that one. Though I do give them credit for the service, because it's great, but we'll see what the PSNP is going to be like...

code_kev
Exactly why did you mention Toca when it's a multiplatform game?
Maaaybe because it....showed up on PS2 first?

code_kev
Nintendo GC:-

* Not enough Games, though some great AAA titles
* Not enough bloody games
*Zelda, oh yes!
Right...or maybe the fact that your insecurities won't allow you to play 99% of the games on them because you're afraid your mates will think your a kiddie gamer. Thinking like that is what prevents you from enjoying the gamecube...period.

code_kev
*Though it has Oblivion, which is better then 99% of games on other machines.
To that I'll answer...why does it even matter if it's on the 360 when it's 100x better on PC?

code_kev
What? Nintendo hang on because they have an army of dedicated fans who will lap up any gimmick they release, and they know how to cash in. Pokemon, Nintendogs, Gameboy etc etc.
Because we all know that making new innovative products that expand the way we play games are allll gimmicks right? Don't make comments that don't make sense and I won't puke sarcasm all over them. The DS alone is 100x more innovative than the PS3, 360, or any other console could ever be. But again, your afriad of your mates opinions so you would never be caught dead ENJOYING one.

code_kev
Those were not cool. They sucked huge arse. I can't believe you grouped those games with the work of art that shadow is, it's like grouping the mona lisa with the beano.
Because we ALL know that opinions in games are supposed to be similar. I'm sorry, but if you COULDN'T enjoy those games, you don't really have a sense of "fun factor". You're too much behind the "story" and "presentation" of a game, you think if it doesn't have blood, violence, future, or realism, that it can't be enjoyable. And if you tell me you don't value those qualities in a game, I'll call you a liar, since you've constantly ragged on nintendo for having kiddie games, and even here, you rag on these games for no other reason other than "they sucked huge arse" when they weren't meant to be monumental groundbreaking visual games, they focus purely on fun interactive new gameplay. GO FIGURE.

code_kev
Odd how that motorstorm piccy doesn't look anywhere near as good as the "in game demo" shown before...
Yea, because we all know that displacing sand and mud in real time, while drying, and having a HUGE amount of particle effects present is definately not impressive. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, a camera angle can make anything look good...just go to myspace and look at the millions of members who have the "angle". They might look hot, but once you hit the right angle...oh damn. I'm willing to bet Motorstorm will be a hell of a lot more impressive than PGR3 is...

I had to add onto this.

Funny how:

WarHawk
Resistance
Unreal
MGS4

All look just like their presentation counterparts, in real time in game footage...but of course, leave it to code_kev to find the *one* *possible* reason to think there's some sort of huge conspiracy and plot by Sony to lie to all of us gamers about how good the PS3 will be right? I'm sure you still think that Sony never delivered with the PS2 right? You make me giggle :)

code_kev
Aww I seem like such a kill joy, i am still looking forwards to the ps3. Honest. I'm sure it's gonna be very good.

Some how, I doubt you here...I just don't believe your excited for anything anymore, I think you hate everything and you want the end of the world to come. You scare me....*shakes, runs and hides*
 
Tbh your "ripping time" was kinda dissapointing, as it just added up to you going "OH KEV, you want to look cool". Considering I play on my sister's DS and GC quite often, it makes that point moot.

My point about the GC is true though. It does not have enough games, it's a wonderful machine, just ignored by alot of devs. Don't get your pants in such a twist over it.

Regarding your "graphics ps3 thing", your right. I don't trust what they show simply because I don't have the machine in front of me, and for the fact that they don't hesitate to show demos that were rendered at about 2 fps on machines that proberly weren't even ps3's.

GO FIGURE!!11!1

i love these discussions :D
 
Well, maybe you just don't have the right playing environment. My and my roommates constantly play:

Mario Kart Double Dash
Mario Strikers
SSB:M
Monkey Ball 2
Mario Party
Mario Tennis
WarioWare

And a ton of other GC party games. I guess it's just the fact that everyone can enjoy them, everyone can be good at them, and it's just a blast to play all around.
 
Well, the GameCube really is kind of the ugly stepchild of the console world, and mysteriously, developers treated it kind of like a SNES, giving it a lot of silly kiddie type games like tha_con's list above. In fact I almost fell over when I saw that Resident Evil 4 was going to be a GC exclusive for quite some time! It was even rumored that it would stay on GC.

The Cube is a terribly powerful system, and I believe it still pushed the most polys in the current generation console game, even more than XBox which is a stunning achievement. But I expect that the Revolution will be in the same boat, overshadowed by the 360 and PS3 both, and hold down 3rd place with some excellent but simpler games targeted for a younger audience. Hopefully there will be some Resident Evils and Mortal Kombats to spice up the list.
 
Well I got to say is (to Kev) I have two GC and not one X-box, and before you go on about me not playing on a box, yes ive played them and yes ive enjoyed what ive played, Halo 2 was fun to play against others, and PGR 1 was fun to play, but that said they just dont Inspire me to purchase a console. As for Buzz, my dad has both buzz games with 8 of the controle devices and we have a great time playing at a friends house, and also playing against my mum, ive never played sing star but im guessing that its alot of fun, I mean the millions of people around the world who goto karaoke nights cant be wrong, its loads of fun having a great time, instead of sitting in a dark room shooting the CR*P out of civillians or monstors or aliens, it just dosnt cut it for me anymore as a staple diet for gaming.

If gaming is to keep on mgrowing and making money, it needs to challenge the gaming market, and so far only one company is doing so and thats Nintendo, I will let you in on a secret of mine, Ive always played games since I was about 6, I started on the Amiga 500+ then onto the Atari Jaguar and then to the Playstation 1 then 2 and soon (hopefully) 3 but back in the day, I always dogged my mate for playing on his N64 while I was playing on my PS2, and what a fool I was, the 64 had loads of great games and I missed out on them because of my narrow perception of what made a good game, thank god that I now can catch up and play these games Via GC.

For your own sake learn from my mistakes and play games even if you think that they might be rubbish, just because games dont have loads of cool graphics and lighing effects dosnt mean they play like tripe. Give them a good go, and then make up your mind, because rest assured that plenty of good games will pass you by.

Ohh BTW they still have 8 months to pollish the games shown at GDC, so thats plenty of time to make them very nice for launch day, but yes the motorstorm shot looks weaker than i hoped but we cant judge it by just screen shots, we have to see it running before making any judgment on what it looks like.
 
It has nothing to do with graphics, it's simply the fact I don't want to play an interactive pop music quiz. You read into this too deeply.
 
I strongly believe the Gamecube is so neglected by devs due to its unorthodox controller layout. It's just too strange to port things to.

If the revolution does indeed utilize "the shell," we may see a completely different turnaround.
 
The shell. It's like a standard controller interface housing that the revolution controller sets into. IGN had a pic of one. Nothing is official, of course.
 
Omnis
The shell. It's like a standard controller interface housing that the revolution controller sets into. IGN had a pic of one. Nothing is official, of course.
If only we could say that the PS3 controller wasn't official...
But we can't say **** about the controller since none of us has actually HELD it. I felt that the Xbox controller sucked, but after that i baught one i really like it.
 
You can argue all you want about what you like and don't like, but the last generation (or current, depends on how you look at it) has generally defined an entire generation of gammers and their expectations for all platforms and titles to come. Being that the PS2 was indeed the best thing since the SNES and sliced bread, it is a tough act to follow, and that is why Sony, et. all have comitted themselves to go above and beyond what once was.

...It can indeed be argued that Micosoft did not shoot high enough with the 360, and as a quasi-MS fanboy, I could agree with that. But when you consider the economics of the issue, they did a pretty damn good job making the best thing possible to make the most money possible. So what if the graphics arent ten times that of the best gaming PCs? So what if the hardware is not too far beyond where the PCs are going to be in the next few years? Microsoft wanted to be first to bring next-generation gaming to the market, and cutting some corners had to happen. But it worked, damn near everywhere, and demand for the console went well above and beyond the expectations of everyone on Team XBOX.

Sony and Nintendo fanboys (as well as those who "claim" to be "neutral") hate the XBOX because it was a success, and because it was something to rattle the cages of the top two industry platforms. It's appeal draws on the wants of the "hardcore" gamer, and IMO, draws a good part of it's popularity from male-targeted titles like Halo, PGR, DOA, etc. They dont have to suit everyone's taste to sell consoles, and they have proven it. The Japanese may hate it, and the Europeans may not care for it, but what matters is that they sell well in the world's largest gaming market, North America.

Everything that is said of the PS3, may or may not be true. Of course, GDC did shed some light on the mystery surrounding the PS3, but nothing is going to be solid until May. IMO, they still have not showed enough to make me say that I want one, nor have they convinced me that Blu-Ray is any better than HD-DVD, etc. If the PS3 is going to be as "special" as they claim it to be, they do have a lot of people to impress...

About the whole "PS3 Live" system: Last I had herd, it was going to be "free" like the XBOX Live Silver service. However, you will be able to play with your friends and whatnot, but addons in the game will cost credits, similar to what you have to buy or earn on the XBL system. You want new cars and tracks in GT4? You have to buy them, seperately, presumably charged to your credit card. Not radically different from the XBL setup, but the interview with Dan Hsu seemed to say that EVERYTHING add-on would cost something...(See it HERE)

I'm excited about the Revolution. I may not buy one right away, but it sounds interesting nonetheless. We will have to see how the titles turn out, and then make a decision, but I would call it the sleeper hit in this situation. Graphics arent going to matter here, gameplay will, and it will be popular with kids and adults in this situation. If you look at the popularity of games like Guitar Hero or DDR as an example, the new system will work, but I'm sure it will have it's quirks at first.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

...BTW: Whats with all the bashing about people not caring much for certain titles? Are they not entitled to their own opinions? Some people loved Halo, others did not. Some people love MGS, others do not.

Opinions are like you bellybutton, everyone has one. If they disagree with you, you can quibble, but don't completely write it off. Just because the man didnt care much for SOTC doesnt make him any less of a gamer. I myself didnt enjoy the game much myself, but I can appreciate it's worth as an inventive and somewhat good looking title. Same with his dislike of the Gamecube, its his opinion. I have one, and I hardly use it, but I do enjoy games like Mario Kart and SSB:M with my younger siblings because they are fun and they can enjoy them. I probably would not have gone out and bought the console and the games myself (as I allready did so with the PS2 and XBOX), as the platform is not that appealing overal, but that again is JUST my opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point I'm getting at is that opinions are opions, and facts are facts. Nothing is going to be set in stone untill the first of the new consoles are on the shelves, and most things said about them are going to be speculation. Insulting someone for not liking titles on the PS2 and GC because you did tha_con is not only child-like, but completely disrespectful to their right to free thought.

You, nor I, nor anyone else in any place anywhere on God's green Earth knows EVERYTHING about gaming as you seem to think. People are different, some VERY different, but nevertheless, they don't need your approval to dislike SOTC or Zelda.
 
Well, nice to see that lot of you think that I have a good sense for humour, but unfortuntaley I was dead serious.

I'll try to brake down those bits in chapters for better understanding. And I excuse in advance for lengthy read below.

NEXT-GEN DRIVE

Here is the 1st revenue-breakdown point when talking "out-of-the-hardware". It is the most important point in these days, since on-line playing is important, but not The most important revenue.

360 was deliberatly caught in the big trap of BR vs. HDVD battle. When talking about 360 begun seriousely during 2004, MS was keen to stress that "with 360 begins the HD era, blah, blah". Unfortunately, 2 smart japanese companies had their own idea about becoming the market leader in various fields. Sony was seriousely developing BR from 2001, while Toshiba made their HDVD concept in the same time. All industry knew what is coming and all was prepeared for launch of both formats during late 2004.

Nothing happend.

To jump over writing down various PR assets of both side, the result is the same. Late 2005 showed us CES with BR all-over-the-place, and HDVD was shown by Toshiba, but without any serious impact. Why? Because from early 2005 Toshiba knew that HDVD will never be. Why? Because it would not survive. Why? Because of PlayStation 3, period.

BR vs. HDDVD

It is very easy to understand the enourmuos strength of "PlayStation" console as a tool to establish new formats on worldwide market. If you're a serious company such as Toshiba, you just can't neglect that pushing such a risky battle will lead you to market-death. Why? Because if you even invest in manufactoring, development, conrtacting, authoring and so on - you have to be ready to face a simple fact - you just can't sell 5 million HDDVD players worldwide in the first month of sale and establish a "first-wave-userbase" together with 10+ million HDDVD movies.

And Sony can. And they can sell up to 2 million Blu-Ray players inside the PS3 every single month after the launch, and millions in every next month, as much as they manufactoring can produce. And they can even produce, distribute and sell millions and milllions of Blu-Ray movies on their propietary BR discs just because the consumers will want to see what that BR thingie is all about - since they allready have Blu-Ray-powered PS3. And Sony has a incredible portfolio of movies to produce in BR thanks to their share in movie-bussines via Tri-Star and so on.

MOVIE INDUSTRY

Which leads us to another big-player in industry - big Hollywood studios. Who didn't like the idea about having 2 different next-gen DVD formats from the first second. In 2004 we saw so many lists with studios who support HDDVD and BR, the battle was going on, blah. In late 2005 all those just dissapeared. On CES Sony showd a 100+ title-list of BR movies ready to launch together with format-launch in mid-2006. Pioneer showed a official BR player, recorder, plasma and so on. Do not think that big studios had no impact on this battle. And when you are a big Hollywood studio and when you have a ability to produce and distribute a next-gen format hardware globally in a split-second - which both Sony is and can - you're the winner. It is easy.

And there is no market future for HDDVD anymore. It is too expensive for Toshiba. It may be cheaper to produce as all PR assets was saying those early days, but then Sony has stressed that BR movies will cost no more then 20% more then standard DVD. And that margin will come down shortly, no doubt. That was the last nail in HDDVD coffin.

On last Friday 24th March came another delay of HDDVD till April. The reason is "lack of movies available for the new players". Ad the biggest company in HDDVD lpunge, Warner Home Video stated it will release it's HDDVD catalogue on April 18th for US. BR will start in US in May, toghether with few model of players, next-gen 1080p screens and impressive potfolio titles with all major hits from last 20 years of movie-industry. And just 6 months after the format-premiere there comes the 500$ Blu-Ray player that can do everything else together with playing BR movies in all-of-their-HD-beauty.

So, why all this blabbling about? To show the inevitable. It is just not likely that any kind of HDDVD format will prevail. It will come to market, it will stay there for some time and then it will dissapear.

XBOX360 v.2 ?

And Microsoft has to have a next-gen drive inside the console for very obvious reasons. Developers are No#1. Who will become spoiled in very second when Sony offers them a 50 GB medium to store graphics and sounds. Not to mention the "region-free games" as reason No#2 that Sony officialy announced. It will cut the costs dramatically for whole bunch of titles in both development, merchandise and sales, increasing revenue and profit. Reason No#3 will prevail shortly after PS3 comes to market in 2006. Those are "normal" buyers. Who will certanly buy a console which allows them to watch BR movies, DVD movies, listen SACD and CD - and play games. And do not think that press, IT press, specialised game-press and so on will not awe the PS3 when it comes out. The reason No#4 will just rocket the +500$ console into skies of positive PR because it will offer so much technical advancements crammed in-the-box for so small amount of money, without even mentioning the games.

And noone will literally buy 360 any more.

UPGRADE PROBLEMS

They have to upgrade. And if they release a HDDVD drive as upgrade, there is no fisable bussines-model to do so.

How to explain a angry customers they can't play new games on 16 month old console because they have to purchase a separate 100$ external drive - because new games are on HDDVD? How will you fit that drive next to console to look good on photos and not to be laughed-out? Of course, you can always give-out upgrade for free and lose another 100 million dollars for every 1 million HDDVD drive. And up to this piont around 5 millions Xbox360 were shipped (not sold) on worldwide market.

DRIVING MISS DAISY

They can try to replace existing drive in services. But they can only try. Way to expensive. First Toshiba (or whoever) would need to produce a special 360 drive in few million pieces. Then engineers wold have to comply it with existing hardware. Then MS should distribute it around the world to services. Then not to speak about ways to call-in all customers, explain them what they need to do, and then do it. It is just not same as famous "power-cord case", but then again - they've collected valuable experience on that particular issuse regarding customer-care and hardware drawback:).

They can try to use HDD for loading. But there are new problems there. Basic systems does not have HDD. Ad Core system can use just 12GB of 20 to store data, since 8GB is owned by system. Which leads to need of replacing existing HDD with bigger one and revamping the whole internal security-protocls to allow the games being played from the disc. And since you do not have HDDVD drive, you can't rip the game on new big HDD since normal drive can't read the disc. And download of 20GB game via internet is a big "No-No".

You can try to persuade the developers to make a game on few DVD discs, then to persuade the customers to buy bigger HDD, and then to install it on HDD to play. How does it seems to you? Bad? I thought so.

DELIBERATE MOVE

All above clearly shows the distant perspective of problems for X360 when drive is in question. And Microsoft knows it, of course. They knew it form the very beggining. But they just couldn't do anything about it. In 2004 they were certain that next-gen format war will make 2 strong formats and they were keen to uphold the HDDVD and make it one of the key-selling-point of upcoming console. And all the ideea went down in flames.

They had to release the console in 2005 because postponing was just not the option. Gaining start possition was imperative. They knew that BR-issue will rocket the PS3 sales in the very minute the console premiere. And they know the strength of that particular card in Sony's hand. And Sony knew it too. And Toshiba knew it. And Sony nad Toshiba are long-term partners in the Cell-development. Which spreads way around the PS3 console in the cores of IT and computer bussines worldwide in very near future for both companies.

And do not forget the Sony stole the 2005 E3 conference with unveling the unfished product, while MS had 360 up-and-going. MS just did not expect that. But press was talking about PS3 and Revolution controller - X360 was on 3rd place by PR-count. And to make even more shameful- it was the only next-gen console ready to launch.

This years E3 will show 2 new consoles - PS3 and Revolution (Go?). 360 will be the "old-system". I can put all my money on idea that Bungie got a horse-head in bed with order to make a Halo 3 playable untill May. It is one-and-only thing that can carry the 360 in Los Angeles. But it will just not be enough.

Because there will be Revolution. No HD drives, no next-gen blabbing, just pure gameplay and revolutionized controls. But they were doing it form the very beggining that way. And they will certanly grab-back the big piece of market with Rev. Not to speak about the press - who will go mad about the next Zelda, Metroid and Mario for Revolution. And who knows what elese the Big N has in its sleeves.

Even if it seemed unsignificant in last 12 month, the next-gen drive format was the factor that will heavily infuence the future of X360. While console specs are somehow similar to PS3 in some ways, there is one slight thingie around the numbers - noone really knows the true-and-finished specs of PS3 so far. And in conjuction with extremly fast data-flow from BR drive and disc when comapred to normal DVD, PS3 certanly seems advanced - even when speaking about the games solely.

And for vast majority of casual customers, gaming was never the only selling factor of consoles.

My optimistic view says that in less then 18 months from now (autumn 2007) DVD drive in X360 will become a great problem for future of console itself. And that is why I think that MS will make a new console, because any assets in upgrading a existing platform would scream "360 is not good as PS3 and it needs upgrade".

E3 2005 was stolen by Sony and Nintendo.
E3 2006 will be all and only about Sony and Nintendo. And then comes November and Christmas time. 6 millions PS3 stacked on the worldwide shelves and few million Revolutions. And 1 million PS3 worldwide for every next month.
E3 2007 will be even more about Sony and Nintendo. Nintendo will maybe even announce a new HD console for 2008. Satoru Iwata already talked about it. And noone will remeber a white console with changable faceplates, obsolete DVD drive and old-school component-driven 720p.

HANDHELDS

And while MS did a nice job with establishing a Xbox Arcade service, it will face a tremendous competiiton with PS3 and Revolution launch - both Sony and Nintendo will offer all of their past-console portfolio for download, while Sony will even make a software-upscaler which will make all those low-res games being shown on high-res on PS3. And it will become the most important move for revenue since all of us will pay for their all-time-classics few bucks. And that is billions money.

And both Sony and Nintendo have handhelds, respectfully fully compatible with their upcoming consoles. Which is also a very important thingie when thinking about prevealing on video-game market in next 24 months.

Microsoft and Xbox360 are facing a big-time failure if they do not make some extremely serious move.

And which move it sould be - I really do not know. Except the new console accompanied with the handheld.

Or buying the whole Nintendo for ridicoluos amount of billions dollars and hoping for the best. But then again - I somehow doubt Nintendo would ever sell it's company to the MS. (EDITED: on 2nd thought it was offensive somehow).

If I was J. Allard, I would be talking with Russians to give me the azil this very moment.

Once more sorry for this lenghty read, but it was necesarry in explaining the whole picture.
 
Amar212, good post. I see what you are saying and I agree with most points, but I dont beleive that Microsoft were going to see it so cut and dry, yes they knew that HD-DVD and BD were coming to the market, but they also knew that Sony would be using BD in PS3 in a most likely situation. So what could MS have done? well they could have at least increased the HDD size, why did they just have a 20gb drive why not 60 or 80gb, they have had years of experiance with PC's you would have thought that if they could not get a next gen optical drive in, they could have a whacking great HDD, as for cost, the price of hard drive space is cheap.

Also MS at the time were looking into making there own optical storage format, called "HD-DVD" :D obviously they were disapointed that toshiba had already registered the name, they did however release a couple of films that played in WMP9 in HD, one was Terminator 2 Extreme edition, this came with a second DVD that had a HD version of the film and used their own codec for sound, so why did they apparently abandon development of this type of disk? surley they could have arrived at a stage where they had something similar to HD-DVD, and then could have easily moved to HD-DVD closer to the time.

I really think that MS shot themselves in the foot, with the lack of willingness to commit to either format, personally I think that they should have bitten the bullet and gone to Sony and asked to use BD, because totally going against a format that on paper is better than HD-DVD was like cutting off their nose to spite their face.

They have really dug themselves in deep with this, and aslo making it that Vista wont support BD out of the box, you will need third party software to do it, was silly too. Personally I dont see what they can do either they could scrap the 360 and release the X-Box 720 or give consumers a HD-DVD drive. but both options will more than likley seal the fate of the 360, and force MS to either quit making consoles or rush and release something else.

Im not sure MS have the ideas let alone the b*lls for making hardware, they should have supported another brand with software instead of trying to grab some hardware action, atleast until they had a good understanding to what makes a good leap into the uknown, they just dont inspire anything from me with their consoles.

@YSSMAN

Yes but people put down games and stomp on things because they dont understand them or havent played them, its like me saying that F.E.A.R. is a load of CR*P when I haven't played it, I have an opinion that im not going to like it, but im willing to play it to see if it lives upto my expectations, granted from the videos and screenshots it looks very nice in the terms of graphics but I dont know what it plays like. Good analogy but I prefer that opinions are like finger prints evreyone has got them but they all differ, because most belly buttons are the same once you have seen one you have seen them all. :D
 
YSSMAN
Sony and Nintendo fanboys (as well as those who "claim" to be "neutral") hate the XBOX because it was a success, and because it was something to rattle the cages of the top two industry platforms.
Good post, but I just wanted to comment on this part. Who are these "Sony and Nintendo fanboys" who hates the Xbox? This thread is filled with lots of PS3(or Sony) fans and a few Nintendo fans, but I haven't been noticing any fanboys claiming to be "neutral". I think most people here are smart enough that even if they don't like the Xbox(not hate), they do appreciate the competition that Xbox has brought to keep Sony and Nintendo honest. I sure do, it keeps the price down.

amar212
Or buying the whole Nintendo for ridicoluos amount of billions dollars and hoping for the best. But then again - I somehow doubt Japanese would sell it's company to the Americans. 60 years is just not enough to forget some things.
I don't think Nintendo will sell themselves to Microsoft, not because of what happened 60 years ago, but because they really do believe in their philosophy, which is VERY different from Microsofts'. MS executives are huge Nintendo fans, Nintendo has huge support in the States(i.e. makes lots of U.S. Dollars :P), it's not Japan vs USA thing at all. If anything, I think that Nintendo dislikes Sony more, who's also Japanese. :D

amar212
Once more sorry for this lenghty read, but it was necesarry in explaining the whole picture.
It was "good" lengthy. 👍
 
they could have a whacking great HDD, as for cost, the price of hard drive space is cheap.

This may shock you , but packing a 3 core power house cpu, 512mb of uber fast ram, and a top end ATI graphics card on a machine isn't cheap. As it is they lose money on every machine sold, so obviously they are gonna watch the pennies.

Your also making too much of a big deal out of the format the games come on. Yes it's a pain, but that's it.

And what is it with the long posts, can people just get to the point!
 
@ amar212 - i wish i could give 100 rep points for your post:tup:

i´m not in the mood for a long post, but i can sum it up in just a simple comparision:

Xbox360 = dreamcast

we all know how this story ends...
 
Wow, a lot of 360 haters in the room...

Peter Moore made it pretty clear during CES that there were not any plants to signifigantly update the 360 to accomodate the HD-DVD drive, despite the fact the platform would allow for it some time in the future. As my understanding would go, the HD-DVD drive would be primarily used to support HD-DVD movies, not games, but I have not read up on it since late 2005. Using the external drive, they would be able to appeal to the HD-DVD market at a lower price than the Toshiba HD-DVD players that are about to hit the market (guestimates were a comparison of about $200-ish dollars for the 360 drive compared to $500-ish for the Toshiba player).

I give Microsoft credit for getting their console out there, ready to play, and beating the competition by nearly a year. Sony clearly promised too many bells and whistles with the PS3, and thus the shipping date was moved to sometime in November.
 
code_kev
Personally I'd take "gore-fest shooter 8: With added gore" over vib ribbon anyday.

Wow! What's this Vib Ribbon game you mention? It sounds cool! I want it! :P

As for the 360, it's hard to predict what the outcome will be. I'm sure that MicroSoft has the pride and resources to stick with it for a few years. (How long did the XBox last? 4 years?) Anyways, I think it's safe to presume that they're going to have trouble with their DVD drive before long. Next-generation games just take up too much space. I remember when I first got a 100mb hard drive... 'Wow! I'll never use that much space!' And games like FPS rely on cutting edge graphics and effects; I imagine they'll want all the space they can get. And yes, we do have several games on multiple discs, however, most of those are RPGs, aren't they?

And what's wrong with long, involved posts? They are sure more informative that pithy one- or two-liners. Oh, but maybe you suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder... I'm sorry... :(
 
And what's wrong with long, involved posts? They are sure more informative that pithy one- or two-liners. Oh, but maybe you suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder... I'm sorry...

Oh I like how you got ADD In there, your so sharp. You prefer 2000 words of waffle, I prefer 50 words that gets the point across fast.
 
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