PS3 General Discussion

[LaBounti]

Post race video chat during a racing game replay sounds likea cool possile feature.

As far as initial PS3 game looking no different than 360 games, thats still anyone guess as all of the initial 360 games were not designed from the ground up for the Xbox360 but via XNA and direct 3D, What that means is these games would work on a modern PC with no problems. And many look like high def Xbox games(Outfit,Topspin2,FarCry, etc..)

My guess would be some non exclusive PS3 games could look worse on PS3 initially or no differnt. Exclusive games are another story.

 

[Tenacious D]

Man, you must be jaded or hard to please, LaBounti. I thought the 360 games on display looked noticeably better than the XBox games. Now admittedly, the XBox is no slouch when it comes to graphics, but the 360 games do have a stunning resolution and polish.

As for games specifically built for the consoles, keep in mind that the 360 games coming out this holiday season may be second gen or darn close, and the PS3 community will have started their games on preliminary development kits. Because of the sheer horsepower of the PS3, I'd think they would still look very similar. But maybe I'm wrong, and the PS3 will blow everything out of the water, including PCs for the next three years. I wouldn't mind that one bit, but we'll see come this Christmas.

 

[tha_con]

Man, you must be jaded or hard to please, LaBounti. I thought the 360 games on display looked noticeably better than the XBox games. Now admittedly, the XBox is no slouch when it comes to graphics, but the 360 games do have a stunning resolution and polish.

As for games specifically built for the consoles, keep in mind that the 360 games coming out this holiday season may be second gen or darn close, and the PS3 community will have started their games on preliminary development kits. Because of the sheer horsepower of the PS3, I'd think they would still look very similar. But maybe I'm wrong, and the PS3 will blow everything out of the water, including PCs for the next three years. I wouldn't mind that one bit, but we'll see come this Christmas.

I would go as far as to agree with you. But you fail to realize that PS3 first gen games have roughly 1 year more of development time vs. the 360 first gen titles.

The 360 was rushed, plain and simple, MS wanted a lead, which did them no good, and the end result was a shortage of consoles, and unimpressive titles. The PS3 delayed their launch, hopefully delivering polished games and a *hopefully* smaller shortage problem.

 

[LaBounti]

I didnt say all the games now did I....... Some games clearly look better than Xbox. I did not list those just the few that are not worldy different.

The 360 was rushed, plain and simple, MS wanted a lead, which did them no good, and the end result was a shortage of consoles, and unimpressive titles. The PS3 delayed their launch, hopefully delivering polished games and a *hopefully* smaller shortage problem.

Yeah, thats basically another version of what I said. And Tenacious D I'm only talking about the initial games like I said. Second gen should be better. But it is a guessing game as to how final PS3 games will look.

 

[tha_con]

E3 Speakers worth Noting:

John Smedly - Sony Online Entertainment (President)
John Blakely - Sony Online Entertainment
David Jaffee - Director, God of War
Rob Kay - Lead Designer, Guitar Hero
Hideo Kojima - Director, MGS

Booths to be aware of:

Namco Bandai and Namco Networks (2 Booths)
SCEA and SOE (4 Booths)
Square Enix (3 Booths)
Konami (3 Booths)
Capcom (3 Booths)
Take Two Interactive (1 Booth)

We'll see if other's pop up. There are others worth mentioning, but just go to the E3 site to check it all out.

 

[Tenacious D]

LaBounti... hrm. The 360 hasn't been out that long though. But don't think I'm picking on you. The games are coming along nicely, and if the PS3 games look as good as Test Drive Unlimited, I'll be happy.

But I still don't see a game that makes me want a 360 yet.

 

[tha_con]

Though it won't be out for quite some time, the GT5 car models that have been shown (only two, RX7 and EVO8 IIRC) both look better than TDU...IMO.

 

[LaBounti]

LaBounti... hrm. The 360 hasn't been out that long though. But don't think I'm picking on you. The games are coming along nicely, and if the PS3 games look as good as Test Drive Unlimited, I'll be happy.

But I still don't see a game that makes me want a 360 yet.

I know you are not I rarely get picked on here . But the launch games were rushed(EA) and this is where first gen ps3 games should have an advantage.

I'm with you with the not getting the system thing. I'm standing there at Best Buy with 360's in stock. I was tempted to get it then I looked at the game selection for about 12mins. I cant go off others opinion as I'm 27, a seasoned gamer with personal tastes. Ghost Recon doesnt interest me since i rarely play GR3 for Xbox. I already Have oblivion for pc(better verison) and everything else is just blah to me. PGR3 I played but I dont see any up coming games I'm interested in. Ridge Racer 6 would have been a instant buy had I not just settled fo my PSP verison. And I dont see a $60 game worth my time and money, not for a whole new system. I feel sorry for those who waited in line for it or paid $800 for a obligated launch package and the fools who paid $600 for a core system on Ebay......

 

[Tenacious D]

Sonic Adventure for the Dreamcast is one of my all time favorite games. But it did have an interesting quirk. There's a mini-level which consists of a kind of railcar system in space, and the look is unlike the photo-real elements of the other levels. It looks like it was done by hand on graphic stations, and the gameplay is a little frooky here and there. This was evidently something they did for an E3 or TGS and didn't fix up later. It wasn't bad, just noticeable.

With the developers having two years to work on things for the PS3 release, I doubt that Sony will let anything like that or the 360 cheapness happen.

 

[Sprite]

Dont know about you guys, but Im really looking forward to the AI systems used on PS3 and what this will mean for games like GTA. Whats the AI like on the 360 games you guys have played? PGR3 what the AI like on that, im guessing its alot better than GT4, but im wondering wth all the talk from Sony about the physics and graphics, they havent talked enough about AI. What are your thoughts?

 

[code_kev]

AI is really down to programming skill, thus even some ps2/ xbox games have better AI then the latest and greatest pc/ xbox 360 games. Obviously, more power = more resources to put to use towards AI, but really, dev skill is where it counts, and whether they can be arsed or not.

 

[LaBounti]

There isnt anything fancy about the current Xbox360 games ai or physics. To be honest I dont see how a game like GT4 can have such bad AI yet a simpler(yet choatic) game like Midnight club 3 could convince you you are racing humans. TOCA:RD3 uses the same A.I. on PC, XB and PS2 and its very good and human like including errors.

What would be an example of hardware resource sucking Advanced AI?

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, resources for one thing. GT4 has stunning graphics to load constantly, while managing some fairly high definition physics for the PS2 six cars at a time, along with excellent car sound effects, music, sampling steering controllers and providing force feedback. The bot cars don't even have analog brakes, they just slam on them full force, and coding that wouldn't be any harder than the analog gas they have already.

Evidently they had to pick and choose what to have in full, what to have partly, and what to leave out entirely so the game would drive and look as good as it does.

 

[Sprite]

I understand what goes into an AI system, but what Ive found strange is that With next-gen the focus seems to be on Graphics and Physics, but to me AI is what makes a game in some cases, like racing. TRD 3 is great at imitating AI and but its still not as good as racing against real world people, im wondering if the emphasis on AI has not been touted as much due to the online, and Sony are expecting alot of people to be playing on-line so AI is redundent in those cases.

 

[LaBounti]

I dissagree , simply because "your" focus seems to be racing games. Other games dont need driving AI, if anything simple driving AI for games like GTA or Battlefield. So if AI is not a main part of the gameplay then focus or showcase can be put more on graphics and physics. The demand for greater AI is low since every game is not going require it.

there have been few next gen racing games and the ones out now have AI not any diffrent than current gen.

 

[Swift]

I dissagree , simply because "your" focus seems to be racing games. Other games dont need driving AI, if anything simple driving AI for games like GTA or Battlefield. So if AI is not a main part of the gameplay then focus or showcase can be put more on graphics and physics. The demand for greater AI is low since every game is not going require it.

there have been few next gen racing games and the ones out now have AI not any diffrent than current gen.

That's a good point. And one of the main reasons that graphics and physics seem to make pretty big jumps with each gaming generation but AI moves at a much slower pace.

 

[Dave A]

AI mainly lies with the coder's abilities anyway, the ability for improved AI comes with the increased memory and processing capability of the console. The fact that most developers choose to get maximum graphical effects instead in many cases is don to the developers. Look at the ToCA games, they've alway's offered levels of AI better than anything else on their platforms (perhaps barring on the PC), but they've also lacked in the graphics department compared to some other games like Gran Tourismo, the other aspect of AI is time, it takes a lot fo time to create good AI and to test it properly, this costs moeny so if a developer can get away with it, knowing that they'll sell the game regardless and provide AI that isn't perhaps good, but in say a racing game is capable of just lapping the track at a competitive speed, then they''ll settle for that.

 

[Jedi2016]

I understand what goes into an AI system, but what Ive found strange is that With next-gen the focus seems to be on Graphics and Physics, but to me AI is what makes a game in some cases...

There's a very good reason for that.. AI doesn't sell consoles. AI isn't going to get people hyped about a next-gen system that we have to shell out loads of money for. People want to see what the difference is, and why it's worth their money. That's why the focus is the way it is.

 

[Sprite]

Hmm, but why? I totally agree with most of the points above, about why Sony hasn't given AI as much of a push, and that time and money come into play with AI, but surly there are middleware tools to do most of the heavy lifting these days. Look at Lord Of The Rings, the software to create the armys and make them fight each other was a great bit of software, surley Cell could handle this type of thing now?

La bounti I totally dissagree, I was focusing on driving AI as an example not as a rule of thumb for all games, Sony showed at GDC a great bit of social Interactive AI (fish demo) that will surly be used for such games as GTA and the getaway, AI is not generic in any form, so for me to suggest that and AI developed for a racing game would be great for an MMORPG would be foolish on my part.

Anyway, yes I was more interested in driving AI purly from the fact that we are on a driving forum and play a game with the most rubbish form of AI ever created (GT4), Im not in any doubt that the reason behind GT series having pants AI is due to techincal limits of hardware rarther than lack of programming skill, it also could be due to time restraints. Im wondering with the new found great power of PS3 will such games show great AI or just naff stuff like GT4.

Take two games for the PC (last gen) Far Cry and HL2, both had great graphics and physics but Far Crys AI system was far beyond HL2, and for this reason I loved FC but was dissapointed with HL2 (yes ive finished both) but HL2 more than likely out stripped FC in sales.

Jedi I totally agree, and I think its a shme that the games world has gone this way, but it seems Im the only one, and if trnds keep on this way games will become another hollywood with naff re-hashed titles but looking shiner than a bold mans bonce. (wait a second this is happening now)

 

[code_kev]

Sprite, it's down to the developer, nothing else. What do you think looks better on a box? Incredible graphics or the tag line "great AI". I can certainly tell you which would sell more games. A tech demo with a few fish in means bugger all.

Im not in any doubt that the reason behind GT series having pants AI is due to techincal limits of hardware rarther than lack of programming skill, it also could be due to time restraints.

Time. Easier to set them on rails Sega Rally style.

 

[Sprite]

Sprite, it's down to the developer, nothing else. What do you think looks better on a box? Incredible graphics or the tag line "great AI". I can certainly tell you which would sell more games. A tech demo with a few fish in means bugger all.



Time. Easier to set them on rails Sega Rally style.

have you watched the fish demo (not the one with ducks at the bottom) the actual confrence videos showing social traits and the like? this is great, showing off the ability of Cell handeling great AI systems. And no its not all down to developers, its also down to the publisher, they hold all the cards and money, they say what the time frame is and what budget for certain things will be, then the developer has to fit what can be done around the time scale and money, so when a game is rushed its the publisher not the developer thats to blame (unless its a publisher and developer in one, like codemasters).

I totally agree though about publisher tatics and developer tatics touting graphical power over all other things to gain sales, thats not what Im saying, what I am saying is that its a sad state of affairs when this is the case.

 

[fasj6418]

i think our biggest enemy is the so called "casual gamer". the one that gets impressed by good looking intros and stuff...

i really hope they focus more on details in this generation, not just the AI... let me tell you a little story about this past week... i went to a store and saw a burnout game on a LCD tv. looked good, but not that much. for a moment i thought it was an xbox game, but then i saw that the only console in display was the xbox360...

ouch. it does not matter how the PS3 fares, if "this" is the start of the new gen, then the leap was very small... (and something we can expect, if we analise games from 8 to 16 bit, then 16 to 32 and 32 to 128, we will notice that the progress is each time slower...)

but back to the xbox360, i saw other games. tiger woods was on. it was an half-a$$ game until the golfer had a 2 inch put to sink in... and then the announcer says loud and clear: "what a great shot!" - or something like it - after the guy nailed this incredibly stupid one hand tip in.

that´s a major flaw. that´s programming. that´s something we really hope to get rid by now. it´s just an example of details. the broadcasting is every single game i played in my life is just painful. horrendous. i know the logistics involved, i know al micheals, marv albert and the likes are not going to be recording their voices forever, but c´mom, this just does not cut it for this next gen.

i think the same can be said about the AI. we can have state of the art visuals on GT5, but if the AI keeps running in a perfect-stupid-straight-dumb line, then it will be a big disapointment.

and that´s where the casual gamer kicks in. the guy next to me said: "wow, it really looks like tiger woods"

yeah, gimme a break. first, it´s still ways to go to look like real life, and second, those stupid problems should be a major concern. i really wasen´t impressed by any of those xbox360 games, because it only has SLIGHTLY better graphics, but with the same gameplay flaws that are overlooked since the atari days.

and all of that just because you have to please the casual gamer. and we, the hardcore gamers, just get 🤬 every time.

take a look at spots games for instance. i love basketball, but hoops games just make me nuts because of the level of stupidity found in the gameplay. every switch of generation is the same story. "lets see if they can correct the gameplay flaws, if the annoucer gets smarter, if the AI gets better" but what we always get is a visual upgrade and a detail upgrade at least 50% smaller than the visual.

everytime is like that. i hope with 50 gig to fill and with 7 processors to keep busy, they find a way to make games more realistic in the PS3. not just better looking, but with something inside.

 

[LaBounti]

i think our biggest enemy is the so called "casual gamer". the one that gets impressed by good looking intros and stuff...

Its the casual gamer that makes up %50+ of the sales of systems , 80% of the mediocore games and 90% of the grappy games. Not an actual statistic They help the gaming economy.

ouch. it does not matter how the PS3 fares, if "this" is the start of the new gen, then the leap was very small... (and something we can expect, if we analise games from 8 to 16 bit, then 16 to 32 and 32 to 128, we will notice that the progress is each time slower...)

It is the start but it is by no means small. The leap for ps1 to PS2 was huge more so than NES to SNES. The leap from PS2 to PS3 will be even bigger than that. Its just Xbox to Xbox360 that was somewhat small. Many programers are intemidated by all 3 cores and 6 threads for Xbox360 because its a longer more complicated process. So these game you see now are the result of so many developers saying its easier to program for, its the easy road that leads to uninspiring reuslts. Its so easy in fact any PC game designed to work with windows and Direct 3d will work on Xbox360 with little optimizing. Thats why with every new PC fps it has a great chance of showing up on xbox360.


My only outlook is for many non pc ported games like Xbox360. I guess thats why I'm more interested in PS3 than Xbox360. Its exclusive games apeal to me more. And I'm not excited about multiplatform games at all.

 

[Tenacious D]

I believe there's a clue in the fact that the bot cars in GT have analog gas but a digital brake. It's not any harder to code analog brake, so why isn't it there? I think it's because Polyphony started seeing physics issues with everything past what we have now. I remember in GT2 how my game would feel and behave differently when the other bot cars would gather around me.

I do think that enough games have been touting their superior A.I. that even the casual gamer will demand more than bots with insect intelligence. But there are limits to how far you can reasonably go.

What I proposed in my GT5 wishlist post was to have bot drivers which have actual racer identities and names, histories, racing tendencies and personalities like real live humans. Achieving something of this depth might require the code to be written by computer scientists at research labs. I think bot A.I. of this complexity is almost as involved as an accurate physics or graphics engine. But maybe Sony could pioneer something in this area, like an A.I. engine, an Emotion Engine or something which would describe the behavior of living things in simple to define parameters. So you could set up the parameters for a bot to be a special forces soldier, a ninja, a street goon, a teenage sports car racer, a starship captain or any number of things.

I do think that companies specializing in setting up bot behavior patterns are probably already here, but will become more prominent and needed as games achieve the realism we see today in PC games, and tomorrow on the 360 and PS3. Keep in mind that casual gamers eventually slide more towards the hardcore if theycontinue to play games. They join internet groups, start discussing game things with their buds, and this sort of dialog begins to register with them. The days of the bot with antlike A.I. are surely numbered.

 

[fasj6418]

nothing new to read... the countdown to E3 sucks... i started to read things about the PS3 just two months ago, and those 65 pages of this thread are now history... too bad is just one post per day now...

anyway, while new news doesn´t arrive, i´m looking at every possible video of the PS3.

you can call me sony fanboy or whatever, but after seeing what the xbox360 has to offer so far, micro$oft is really scre%$#.

last night i saw the PS3 trailer from the TGS2005. should have watched this one before. sceptics say that this is just CG from intros of those games, but you know what? even if it is indee only CG´s, thet are still way better than anything the 360 showed so far. that formula 1 game is just and of course, games like motorstorm are being hyped to the limits... and if we look back, that beautiful F1 game is the sequel of a half a$$ PS2 F1 series, and motorstorm would be our ATV road fury. point is, if those games are delivering this, imagine GT. imagine RE5, MGS4 and many other power brands...

to me it doesn´t really matter that most of that is belived to be CG´s, they are still killing the 360...

future looks good... too bad i´ll probably get a PS3 in june of 2007... if not later

 

[Dave A]

Slight correction, the new F1 game has nothing to do with ANY previous F1 game, Sony owns the F1 license now and it'll be the first F1 game made by Sony.

 

[code_kev]

ast night i saw the PS3 trailer from the TGS2005. should have watched this one before. sceptics say that this is just CG from intros of those games, but you know what? even if it is indee only CG´s, thet are still way better than anything the 360 showed so far

That is the most retarded thing I've read in a while.

You berate the casual gamer when frankly, you don't have a clue yourself.

 

[livemusic]

Slight correction, the new F1 game has nothing to do with ANY previous F1 game, Sony owns the F1 license now and it'll be the first F1 game made by Sony.

Sony released quite a few F1 titles for the PS2 already, only just in Europe.

 

[fasj6418]

That is the most retarded thing I've read in a while.

You berate the casual gamer when frankly, you don't have a clue yourself.

i read the entire thread, so its no surprise to me that, well, you didn´t agree with me

still, it doesn´t take away the fact that sony has to deliver a very bad product in order to fail. i´ve played the 360, i´m not just saying things out of context. of course, still 1st gen games in this next generation, but other than PGR3, i´m still not impressed...

 

[code_kev]

That's fair enough, but you can't compare CGI intro vids to in game graphics and say "lolz, this PS3 intro vid totally kicks 360 ass".

I will how ever agree that the first gen of games is hardly incredible. PGR3 though was pretty amazing.