PS4 Physics, Updates and Special EventsPS4

[lisanorm]

Well i'm 22nd on that list not too shabby for me so far,i will never get the plat on this but will chip away and see how far i can get using my DS4.Only have 1 hotlap gold and a couple bronze,too much talent needed for these,i got all the quick races using magic,did do a couple legit and the other way on certain tracks.Just golded all the time attacks,had to work out a few but got there..And then there is that drifting,no doubt this will take some time too...Any way i will chip at it and thank you all for the tips/tricks and tune links and vids i have subscribed to some so who know's..Cheers Norm.

 

[Stotty]

Thanks for the offer. I have used Havanabobs tune and one other, that I cannot remember who from, and I just need to keep plugging away at Barcelona and I think I will get it. I found the McLaren MP4 GT3 at silverstone very easy and did it in less than 10 laps but took a couple of hundred laps at Vallelunga in the same car. For BMW Z4 at Imola I just cannot carry enough speed through turns 2 and 3 at the end of the start/finish straight. If I try to ride the kerbs I just bounce too much and lose traction no matter what line I take and I also tried Havanabobs setup there too. I reckon I loose at least 0.5 secs in those turns
Its been a couple of weeks since I last tried them so I will give them a go again this weekend as the older you get the wiser you get correct?

@HavanaB0B tune is the one I used for Barcelona. So that one definitely works (see @TT92 post!).

I have a couple of very good tunes for the GT3 (one uses high downforce, one low) - one of them got me gold pretty quickly where I'd previously been a good way off... I'll send it to you. You can absolutely hammer the kerbs in it (which is where I found the time I needed).

Also if anyone else wants to share a tune for the SLS and Lotus 25 at Zandvoort it would be greatly appreciated.

I'll send you tunes for both tonight/tomorrow.

Well i'm 22nd on that list not too shabby for me so far,i will never get the plat on this but will chip away and see how far i can get using my DS4.Only have 1 hotlap gold and a couple bronze,too much talent needed for these,i got all the quick races using magic,did do a couple legit and the other way on certain tracks.Just golded all the time attacks,had to work out a few but got there..And then there is that drifting,no doubt this will take some time too...Any way i will chip at it and thank you all for the tips/tricks and tune links and vids i have subscribed to some so who know's..Cheers Norm.

Respect!

I tried AC with the DS4 when I 1st got the game and found it pretty much unplayable. Admittedly, I didn't spend a lot of time adjusting the controller settings, but the cars were so twitchy I could barely drive them in a straight line (I could play GT quite decently on the pad).

 

[Scaff]

Yep, nice buy, after hour of testing it had to say - I'll wait for final GTS happily, ac should have beta tag on tail, maybe my 80€ goes on their FFB development, currently it's crappiiest feedback what I have ever tried, sorry ac guys.. GT-series are having intergalactic spaceships and AC is figuring how round stone for wheels..
But hey I can say at I have AC.. Lol - this is not my day

Sorry!!!!!

Now I've moved this to the correct thread for this discussion, so you can have the opportunity to explain exactly what is wrong with it.

I only ask as to date you understanding of vehicle dynamics have been, well 'wrong' is the only term I can use in all honestly.

So what does AC do wrong in regard to FFB and what settings are you using.

 

[OdeFinn]

Sorry!!!!!

Now I've moved this to the correct thread for this discussion, so you can have the opportunity to explain exactly what is wrong with it.

I only ask as to date you understanding of vehicle dynamics have been, well 'wrong' is the only term I can use in all honestly.

So what does AC do wrong in regard to FFB and what settings are you using.

60-100 ffb 80
0-100 curb 0
0-100 road 30
0-100 slip? 30
Y/n understeer n

Tested vs on use.
Example car e92, no wheel weight on steering wheel, ~20° center has no wheel weight of simulated car, steering works like there's 1000hp powersteering unit with touch control.
Car rear isn't following laws of physics or simulated car physics after you loose grip there, regaining rear grip is big joke.
More later, need some sleep.

Your saying that the sim with the best force feedback on the system is what?

Are we speaking PS4 version of that game, using Logitech wheel?
I can say at there's lot good things in there, but none of them are working flawless currently, plus if you have to tweak hour to get FFB even somehow decent it's no good, and somehow decent is faraway from good.

You know how much first impression means, my first impression was really big disappointment, first FFB then driving with "brand new car" with 30 year old windscreen covered with dust, wtf even my shopping bag has never so dirty windscreen, immersion in my a.

Then I go and start doing wheel alignment for car and I found my self giving orders to some mechanic who's having his worst hangover ever, this gives me immersion yes, this:

You might know who's adjusting camber and toe for your car, in real-life alignment equipment gives pretty stable results, not jumping around when car is stationary.

Next big immersion breaker, e92 paddle shifting, omg, I'm driving in daily basis '16 bmw with puddle shifters and comparing those to AC shifting speed is night and day, how freaking slow they have made them on game, real non M shifts in fraction of that AC shifts, and M shifts even faster real-life.

Steering feedback... Uuih

Moved from gts forum.

 

[PzR Slim]

They are some times when it's just best to say nothing and let people have their skewed view of reality...

 

[Scaff]

60-100 ffb 80
0-100 curb 0
0-100 road 30
0-100 slip? 30
Y/n understeer n

I run with a T300 the following.

FFB 45
The rest 0 and understeer effects Y.

All but FFB are canned effects for those that want they, as I run a tactile rig I neither want nor need them.

Tested vs on use.
Example car e92, no wheel weight on steering wheel, ~20° center has no wheel weight of simulated car, steering works like there's 1000hp powersteering unit with touch control.
Car rear isn't following laws of physics or simulated car physics after you loose grip there, regaining rear grip is big joke.
More later, need some sleep.

You see your at it again with the 'because I say so'. How about this time you actually explain what you mean specifically by the "car rear isn't following the laws of physics".

Next big immersion breaker, e92 paddle shifting, omg, I'm driving in daily basis '16 bmw with puddle shifters and comparing those to AC shifting speed is night and day, how freaking slow they have made them on game, real non M shifts in fraction of that AC shifts, and M shifts even faster real-life.

Excellent, one that can actually be tested and measured.

So I have a capture card that I use for all my videos, that does 60fps and the software I use to edit will allow me to run frame by frame, so a few screen grabs later we have.

So what we have is the last frame for 2nd gear as :01, two frame in neutral (:02 and :03), before we are in 3rd gear. Which is a duration of either 3 or 4 frames out of 60 for that second (depending on when you want to look at the start being)

An E92 with M-DCT runs at a shift speed of 30 to 80 milliseconds depending on setting and conditions, which is between 0.03 and 0.08 seconds. So what does 3 to 4 frames out of 60fps equate to. Well the maths is very easy, its 1 second divided by 60 and then multiplied by 3 or 4, which is between 0.034 and 0.067 seconds.

I would say that put AC's shift time for the M-DCT E92 right in the ball park of the actual car.

Now a BMW Steptronic box has shift times of around 200 milliseconds, or 0.2 seconds, so no the gear changes in AC for the E92 are not slower than that. Not even close.

 

[ALB123]

This is the code from the drivetrain.ini file in Assetto Corsa (PC & Console are exactly the same):

[GEARBOX]
CHANGE_UP_TIME=40        ; change up time in milliseconds
CHANGE_DN_TIME=200        ; change down time in milliseconds
AUTO_CUTOFF_TIME=50        ; Auto cutoff time for upshifts in milliseconds, 0 to disable
SUPPORTS_SHIFTER=0        ; 1=Car supports shifter, 0=car supports only paddles
VALID_SHIFT_RPM_WINDOW=1000            ;range window additional to the precise rev matching rpm that permits gear engage.
CONTROLS_WINDOW_GAIN=0.4            ;multiplayer for gas,brake,clutch pedals that permits gear engage on different rev matching rpm. the lower the more difficult.
INERTIA=0.014            ; gearbox inertia. default values to 0.02 if not set

According to the data, the M3 E92 upshifts in 40ms and downshifts in 200ms. I'm not an expert in most things automotive. I know a little bit here and a little bit there. So, I googled and the DCT in the E92 says 80ms in Wikipedia and 60ms in this article from BMWBlog.com.

I don't know where those publications got their information, but it leads me to believe, if anything, the E92 M3 shifts too quickly in Assetto Corsa. I'll let you guys decide. I really just wanted to give you the data that runs on Assetto Corsa for that car.

EDIT: Quick question. Is the increased Downshift Time a result of the auto-blip/rev-matching? That was always my guess.

 

[Scaff]

This is the code from the drivetrain.ini file in Assetto Corsa (PC & Console are exactly the same):

[GEARBOX]
CHANGE_UP_TIME=40        ; change up time in milliseconds
CHANGE_DN_TIME=200        ; change down time in milliseconds
AUTO_CUTOFF_TIME=50        ; Auto cutoff time for upshifts in milliseconds, 0 to disable
SUPPORTS_SHIFTER=0        ; 1=Car supports shifter, 0=car supports only paddles
VALID_SHIFT_RPM_WINDOW=1000            ;range window additional to the precise rev matching rpm that permits gear engage.
CONTROLS_WINDOW_GAIN=0.4            ;multiplayer for gas,brake,clutch pedals that permits gear engage on different rev matching rpm. the lower the more difficult.
INERTIA=0.014            ; gearbox inertia. default values to 0.02 if not set

According to the data, the M3 E92 upshifts in 40ms and downshifts in 200ms. I'm not an expert in most things automotive. I know a little bit here and a little bit there. So, I googled and the DCT in the E92 says 80ms in Wikipedia and 60ms in this article from BMWBlog.com.

I don't know where those publications got their information, but it leads me to believe, if anything, the E92 M3 shifts too quickly in Assetto Corsa. I'll let you guys decide. I really just wanted to give you the data that runs on Assetto Corsa for that car.

EDIT: Quick question. Is the increased Downshift Time a result of the auto-blip/rev-matching? That was always my guess.

It is.

You could get quicker downshifts without rev matching, but you would cause drivetrain damage and unsettle the car. Not really worth it.

 

[OdeFinn]

The rest 0 and understeer effects Y.

All but FFB are canned effects for those that want they, as I run a tactile rig I neither want nor need them.

Tried exactly those settings too (with higher general ffb), then there's zero ffb on feedback simulating turn resistance, that 1000hp power steering is feeling.

Game tries to simulate inaccuracy of 4-wheel alignment (probably joint plays or something) and if you do do I expect car to have somehow realistic feedback from steering after that, I have instant resistance from steering on 500 series bmw in real life, I feel road thru my steering wheel, that's reason why bmw is bmw, you feel road and you are in constant interaction with steering-car-road, in AC feeling from steering is starting after several degrees of turn, and it's not deadzone on middle, there's occasionally ffb feedback on top center on steering.
Those canned effects are only way to get even some resistance on steering, otherwise that 1000hp touch controlled power steering is only thing what you have.
Understeer effect was on/off many times, actually not even sure what it was on last runs, for a favor I can switch it on.

You see your at it again with the 'because I say so'. How about this time you actually explain what you mean specifically by the "car rear isn't following the laws of physics".

I'll drive bit more to get you proper answer on this, to keep it in your answer quality standards

So what we have is the last frame for 2nd gear as :01, two frame in neutral (:02 and :03), before we are in 3rd gear. Which is a duration of either 3 or 4 frames out of 60 for that second (depending on when you want to look at the start being)

My visual reaction and physical reaction are saying way different, is this video from PS4? I'll get video too.
No damage, I switched it off for my first tests, there was switches "auto clutch" "auto blip" turned on by default, are those fighting against for proper simulation, or should they stay as is? Other stuff like ABS TCS and stability are switched off by me.

Edit: after switching "auto-clutch" and "auto-blip" off (which were on by default) gear change speeds dropped significantly.

 

[Stotty]

60-100 ffb 80
Are we speaking PS4 version of that game, using Logitech wheel?

AC on PS4 with a G29 is not good... the wheel has a huge FF deadzone. Completely different game with a T300.

 

[OdeFinn]

AC on PS4 with a G29 is not good... the wheel has a huge FF deadzone. Completely different game with a T300.

And it's not even real deadzone, just lack of coding, there's ffb used in top center, showing at there isn't deadzone, but simulation is done like you have deadzone there, cuts driver-car connection constantly.

 

[ALB123]

AC on PS4 with a G29 is not good... the wheel has a huge FF deadzone. Completely different game with a T300.

Yeah...

I'll admit that for an old, clunky wheel the DFGT I have gets along okay. It's still a crap wheel, but I got this for free so I can't complain. I thought about getting a G29 - it has all the same buttons as my DFGT, so I thought I would like it. A friend of mine has one. I wasn't impressed at all...which is odd because I've heard that it feels pretty much like a G27 which I always thought was supposed to be a decent wheel.

When I do end up replacing this wheel it will absolutely be something other than Logitech. Most likely a T300 steering wheel.

 

[Scaff]

Tried exactly those settings too (with higher general ffb), then there's zero ffb on feedback simulating turn resistance, that 1000hp power steering is feeling.

Game tries to simulate inaccuracy of 4-wheel alignment (probably joint plays or something) and if you do do I expect car to have somehow realistic feedback from steering after that, I have instant resistance from steering on 500 series bmw in real life, I feel road thru my steering wheel, that's reason why bmw is bmw, you feel road and you are in constant interaction with steering-car-road, in AC feeling from steering is starting after several degrees of turn, and it's not deadzone on middle, there's occasionally ffb feedback on top center on steering.
Those canned effects are only way to get even some resistance on steering, otherwise that 1000hp touch controlled power steering is only thing what you have.
Understeer effect was on/off many times, actually not even sure what it was on last runs, for a favor I can switch it on.

Are you using a G29?

As if that's the case it has a known FFB deadzone issue with being gear driven, one which doesn't exist with direct drive (PS only) or belt driven wheels.

I certainly do not have the issue you are describing.

I can also tell you that a modern BMW (and I have owned and driven enough of them) do not have great communication through the steering at all, they use electric power assistance which robs you of road feel and most have very thick padded rims which don't help either. Throw in modern cars suspension bushings and you have rather numb steering feel. This is not a situation isolated to BMW, but quite common of most modern cars, you want real communication of what is going on at the tyres via the steering either drive something un-assistance or give a Lotus or Caterham (etc.) a go.

What you are feeling in your car is not direct from the steering wheel, its primary and secondary ride via the cars body itself, some of which you can feel the steering, but its not coming from the tyres direct to the steering.That's what tactile units on sim rigs are for, or you can use the canned effects to provide that for you should you wish.

That you were not able to tell what understeer effects does is rather interesting in itself, take a look at the following and see if you can work it out (here's a hint GTS doesn't model it).

I'll drive bit more to get you proper answer on this, to keep it in your answer quality standards

Please do.

My visual reaction and physical reaction are saying way different, is this video from PS4? I'll get video too.
No damage, I switched it off for my first tests, there was switches "auto clutch" "auto blip" turned on by default, are those fighting against for proper simulation, or should they stay as is? Other stuff like ABS TCS and stability are switched off by me.

Edit: after switching "auto-clutch" and "auto-blip" off (which were on by default) gear change speeds dropped significantly.

So you were wrong then.

Oh and unless you are able to capture 60 fps video its not reall going to help, which would need a capture card to be able to do so. PS4 share captures are capped at 30fps.

And it's not even real deadzone, just lack of coding, there's ffb used in top center, showing at there isn't deadzone, but simulation is done like you have deadzone there, cuts driver-car connection constantly.

Then please explain why its only a factor on the G27/G29? A wheel range with a known deadzone issue at zero degrees due to the gear driven system.

I mean its not as if people have been complaining about it on a range of titles for both the G27 and G29 days (and given that the G29 is using pretty much the same tech as the G27).

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=g29+deadzone+issue

Even the old DF series wheels had the same issue back in the day, due to being gear driven, its a well known weakness of that tech.

Lets not rule out the 8 bit resolution on the G series pedals being a factor in some of the issues you are having as well.

 

[Stotty]

And it's not even real deadzone, just lack of coding, there's ffb used in top center, showing at there isn't deadzone, but simulation is done like you have deadzone there, cuts driver-car connection constantly.

Don't judge AC by how it feels on a G29

I had 10 years experience with G series wheels. Bought a G29 when I got a PS4 and AC. Hated it. Bought a T300 4 weeks later and the FF is brilliant.

Of course we can criticise the developer for not programming it well - G series wheels have the ability to run really well, just not on AC!

 

[OdeFinn]

Are you using a G29?

As if that's the case it has a known FFB deadzone issue with being gear driven, one which doesn't exist with direct drive (PS only) or belt driven wheels.

G27 thru GIMX, and problem isn't wheel, problem is coders crap code on FFB, my wheel doesn't magically get zero deadzone on GTS and Dirt Rally and then when AC is started it became crap with few meter deadzone... No fingers can be pointed on Kunos/505 whatever coder is responsible this crap.

I can also tell you that a modern BMW (and I have owned and driven enough of them) do not have great communication through the steering at all, they use electric power assistance which robs you of road feel and most have very thick padded rims which don't help either. Throw in modern cars suspension bushings and you have rather numb steering feel. This is not a situation isolated to BMW, but quite common of most modern cars, you want real communication of what is going on at the tyres via the steering either drive something un-assistance or give a Lotus or Caterham (etc.) a go.

Weird, I have driven BMW's models from 2007-2016 200.000km+, from brand new up to 300.000km on odometer, seen whole process how joints get loosen when kilometers on odometer rises and I have always been excellent road feel on those, thru wheel. '16 model F10 is good example, you can feel "everything" thru wheel but in BMW standards, meaning not annoying feel, but you feel connected to road, this is during winter top thing here in Finland. 24/7/365 having long pressed stability button with two yellows on dash and gearbox on sport mode.

What you are feeling in your car is not direct from the steering wheel, its primary and secondary ride via the cars body itself, some of which you can feel the steering, but its not coming from the tyres direct to the steering.That'st tactile units on sim rigs are for, or you can use the canned effects to provide that for you should you wish.

I know difference what's coming thru wheel and what's coming from car body, one hint to you, next time you're driving car let your elbow rest against door cushion, giving you "ground zero" for feeling, then keep really gently your hand on wheel and let it speak to you, then try with free hanging hands and hand resting on door cushion without touching driving wheel, after this you know how much steering wheel speaks to you.
I have had discussion with wheel over million kilometer and it has told me lot of stories how road goes.

That you were not able to tell what understeer effects does is rather interesting in itself, take a look at the following and see if you can work it out (here's a hint GTS doesn't model it).

Where I said at I didn't feel difference, I was testing so many different combos at didn't remember what was last position on it. Trying to get game normal ffb(general) to speak that information, without luck.

Then please explain why its only a factor on the G27/G29? A wheel range with a known deadzone issue at zero degrees due to the gear driven system.

I mean its not as if people have been complaining about

If this is only because g27/g29 reason then I'm complaining on correct issue, then developer should put more time to do their Logitech FFB code working, lousy explain to say "it's Logitech wheel, don't expect it to work" because it's working without any freaking deadzones on other games, so problem is entirely on Kudos code.

Don't judge AC by how it feels on a G29

I had 10 years experience with G series wheels. Bought a G29 when I got a PS4 and AC. Hated it. Bought a T300 4 weeks later and the FF is brilliant.

Of course we can criticise the developer for not programming it well - G series wheels have the ability to run really well, just not on AC!

There was no warning text included on game which says, don't expect this to do simulation well on Logitech products. So my complain to game is well justified, crap using Logitech product, should have beta tag on Logitech support area.




Let's put manufacturer alignment on car.. Well.. Well..

Or let's not.. Maybe after Kunos mechanics are sober

 

[Scaff]

G27 thru GIMX, and problem isn't wheel, problem is coders crap code on FFB, my wheel doesn't magically get zero deadzone on GTS and Dirt Rally and then when AC is started it became crap with few meter deadzone... No fingers can be pointed on Kunos/505 whatever coder is responsible this crap.

Kunos may well have been able to code it better, but a quick google shows its not the only title with FFB deadzone issue on the G series wheels.

What I can tell you is that the feedback is not a problem at all with the T series wheels, not even remotely an issue.

Now this is a PC fix, but I don't know if you can use it with GIMX at all.

http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/9304-g27-dead-zone-fix-assetto-corsa/

But keep in mind that gear driven wheels will always have a degree of deadzone, that you simply can't change, its the problem with gears and will get worse as they wear).

Weird, I have driven BMW's models from 2007-2016 200.000km+, from brand new up to 300.000km on odometer, seen whole process how joints get loosen when kilometers on odometer rises and I have always been excellent road feel on those, thru wheel. '16 model F10 is good example, you can feel "everything" thru wheel but in BMW standards, meaning not annoying feel, but you feel connected to road, this is during winter top thing here in Finland. 24/7/365 having long pressed stability button with two yellows on dash and gearbox on sport mode.

Not weird at all. Have you spent much time behind the wheel of a Caterham, or a Lotus, or race spec cars with rose-bushed joints?

You may well think that BMW's have great communication via the steering from the tyres (and in comparison to say most Audi's it is), but if that is your sole point of reference then it may well not have enough comparison to be valid or even accurate.

I know difference what's coming thru wheel and what's coming from car body, one hint to you, next time you're driving car let your elbow rest against door cushion, giving you "ground zero" for feeling, then keep really gently your hand on wheel and let it speak to you, then try with free hanging hands and hand resting on door cushion without touching driving wheel, after this you know how much steering wheel speaks to you.
I have had discussion with wheel over million kilometer and it has told me lot of stories how road goes.

I've worked in the motor industry more than long enough to know the difference and if you don't think that primary and secondary ride information is getting to you via the steering wheel that is not direct communication from the tyres and is in fact colouring that information then you would be very, very wrong.

Where I said at I didn't feel difference, I was testing so many different combos at didn't remember what was last position on it. Trying to get game normal ffb(general) to speak that information, without luck.

If this is only because g27/g29 reason then I'm complaining on correct issue, then developer should put more time to do their Logitech FFB code working, lousy explain to say "it's Logitech wheel, don't expect it to work" because it's working without any freaking deadzones on other games, so problem is entirely on Kudos code.

No the problem is not only with the AC code, if its was then issues around FFB deadzones on pretty much every title around would not exist.

AC may have more of an issue with it, but to try and claim that gear driven wheels don't have a central FFB deadzone issue is simply not true (or is everyone on the web that has ever complained about it a liar).

Let's put manufacturer alignment on car.. Well.. Well..

Or let's not.. Maybe after Kunos mechanics are sober

Maybe you could try explaining what you are trying to show, rather than just posting up a video with a rambling partial explanation.

 

[OdeFinn]

unos may well have been able to code it better, but a quick google shows its not the only title with FFB deadzone issue on the G series wheels.

What I can tell you is that the feedback is not a problem at all with the T series wheels, not even remotely an issue.

Now this is a PC fix, but I don't know if you can use it with GIMX at all.

http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/9304-g27-dead-zone-fix-assetto-corsa/

But keep in mind that gear driven wheels will always have a degree of deadzone, that you simply can't change, its the problem with gears and will get worse as they wear).

Are you saying at that gear to gear deadzone on G27 (which I have measured to be around 1mm at rim outer edge) is suddenly causing software based deadzone problems, and only on Assetto Corsa. Damn I must be stupid to not see this.

Not weird at all. Have you spent much time behind the wheel of a Caterham, or a Lotus, or race spec cars with rose-bushed joints?

You may well think that BMW's have great communication via the steering from the tyres (and in comparison to say most Audi's it is), but if that is your sole point of reference then it may well not have enough comparison to be valid or even accurate.

I don't need stiff bushings to feel car suspension/wheel movement, not saying at I haven't driven such cars.

I've worked in the motor industry more than long enough to know the difference and if you don't think that primary and secondary ride information is getting to you via the steering wheel that is not direct communication from the tyres and is in fact colouring that information then you would be very, very wrong.

Don't get this, maybe just not understanding point, language barrier might step in. Hopefully you're not meaning at car with electronic power steering isn't directly connected streerinwheel to actual wheels.

No the problem is not only with the AC code, if its was then issues around FFB deadzones on pretty much every title around would not exist.

AC may have more of an issue with it, but to try and claim that gear driven wheels don't have a central FFB deadzone issue is simply not true (or is everyone on the web that has ever complained about it a liar).

Like said earlier, AC is only place where this kind/size problem exists, physical limits of Logitech wheel (including software/firmware) are same on all games, but Assetto Corsa is only title where coders haven't got skills to harness FFB on favour of usability.

Maybe you could try explaining what you are trying to show, rather than just posting up a video with a rambling partial explanation.

Not even possible to put oem alignment values on car, plus it's constant roulette to dial any values in, which aren't even sticking (values after track), if you "simulate" permanent dust on widescreen and 500.000 driven bushings with drunken mechanics doing dialing I would assume at there's also possibility to dial in real values, or even in real way, bmw should be strapped down on alignment height and dial in values, meaning at manufacturer values on free hanging body i.e. Camber is less than oem dial in value, and on toe-in there should be more on free hanging body, in Assetto Corsa you're not able to get manufacturer values, or even symmetric values per side, drunken mechanics wobble more than manufacturer tolerance is allowing difference between sides.. Simulation in my

 

[Stotty]

Let's put manufacturer alignment on car.. Well.. Well..

Or let's not.. Maybe after Kunos mechanics are sober

You're setting up the car in Nurb TF car park I think?

You'll notice the settings aren't balanced before you make any adjustments... which I always assumed this was because the car park isn't flat (it's the same in Nurb pitlane), and therefore the static settings look odd... so trying to correct them individually by wheel doesn't work - you have to set them to the same value in the settings screen and average them out.

Try taking the car to another track, with a level pit lane and it will make more sense.

 

[ALB123]

@OdeFinn -- Why the hell would you drive the M4 with Front Camber L/R set to -1.2°/0.0° and Rear Camber L/R set to -1.8°/-1.0°?

You don't seem to know what the dynamic value screen is -- just use the right side to set the values you want. No wonder cars probably feel strange. You have Front Toe L/R set to 1/6 and Rear Toe L/R set to 8/5!!!!!

 

[ALB123]

You're setting up the car in Nurb TF car park I think?

You'll notice the settings aren't balanced before you make any adjustments... which I always assumed this was because the car park isn't flat (it's the same in Nurb pitlane), and therefore the static settings look odd... so trying to correct them individually by wheel doesn't work - you have to set them to the same value in the settings screen and average them out.

Try taking the car to another track, with a level pit lane and it will make more sense.

Exactly... Don't even look at the dynamic values -- you set them the way you want them on the right-side of the screen.

 

[OdeFinn]

You're setting up the car in Nurb TF car park I think?

You'll notice the settings aren't balanced before you make any adjustments... which I always assumed this was because the car park isn't flat (it's the same in Nurb pitlane), and therefore the static settings look odd... so trying to correct them individually by wheel doesn't work - you have to set them to the same value in the settings screen and average them out.

Try taking the car to another track, with a level pit lane and it will make more sense.

Thanks for advice, not solving wobbling. Where in this game is possibility to do alignment what simulates real 4-wheel alignment?

@OdeFinn -- Why the hell would you drive the M4 with Front Camber L/R set to -1.2°/0.0° and Rear Camber L/R set to -1.8°/-1.0°?

You don't seem to know what the dynamic value screen is -- just use the right side to set the values you want. No wonder cars probably feel strange. You have Front Toe L/R set to 1/6 and Rear Toe L/R set to 8/5!!!!!

Didn't see at all that wobbling at it wobbles my M3 to M4..
Hard time to believe how dynamic and "dialed" values are so far apart..

 

[Scaff]

Are you saying at that gear to gear deadzone on G27 (which I have measured to be around 1mm at rim outer edge) is suddenly causing software based deadzone problems, and only on Assetto Corsa. Damn I must be stupid to not see this.

Do you actually read what people post or just reply based on what you want them to have said?

I didn't say it was not in part of coding issue, but to try and claim as you are that only AC has issues with deadzones on he G series wheels is nonsense.

I don't need stiff bushings to feel car suspension/wheel movement, not saying at I haven't driven such cars.

Your not saying you have either.

So I will ask you directly, are you saying that the degree of steering communication is on a par with them in a BMW?

Don't get this, maybe just not understanding point, language barrier might step in. Hopefully you're not meaning at car with electronic power steering isn't directly connected streerinwheel to actual wheels.

Nope that would be steer by wire, totally different thing.

I'm saying (because its a fact) that as soon as you put a power assist on steering (and electric is worse for this than hydraulic), add bushes to the joints, hell even put a thicker rim on a steering wheel you remove feedback from the tyres to the steering wheel. That reduced feedback is then more susceptible to being coloured by feedback from the rest of the car.

However as far as AC goes its a moot one, as you can add it back in with the canned effects, I simply said I don't need to as I run a tactile rig, and guess what happens when you blend the two in a rig? That's right you get a similar effect to the one you do in a real car.

Like said earlier, AC is only place where this kind/size problem exists, physical limits of Logitech wheel (including software/firmware) are same on all games, but Assetto Corsa is only title where coders haven't got skills to harness FFB on favour of usability.

No its not, it may be the worst for you, but to try and claim that other title don't also have issues with FFB deadzone on the G series wheels is to call a lot of people liars.

Not even possible to put oem alignment values on car, plus it's constant roulette to dial any values in, which aren't even sticking (values after track), if you "simulate" permanent dust on widescreen and 500.000 driven bushings with drunken mechanics doing dialing I would assume at there's also possibility to dial in real values, or even in real way, bmw should be strapped down on alignment height and dial in values, meaning at manufacturer values on free hanging body i.e. Camber is less than oem dial in value, and on toe-in there should be more on free hanging body, in Assetto Corsa you're not able to get manufacturer values, or even symmetric values per side, drunken mechanics wobble more than manufacturer tolerance is allowing difference between sides.. Simulation in my

A couple of points here.

The setting screen for AC is for a car with the driver in it, its never going to then give you identical dynamic values as cars with drivers in them (or without drivers for that matter) are not symmetrical in load.

Now as far as the OEM values go, the ones I have (attached) show AC's 'stock'values to be within range, with the exception of rear toe, which can most certainly be set to within range.

Didn't see at all that wobbling at it wobbles my M3 to M4..
Hard time to believe how dynamic and "dialed" values are so far apart..

They are not the same range for all settings.

The toe setting (on the right) is a range of 'clicks' you can set, the dynamic value (on the left) is the current actual value (and the one that uses the actual range for toe (in this case).

 

[ALB123]

A couple of points here.

The setting screen for AC is for a car with the driver in it, its never going to then give you identical dynamic values as cars with drivers in them (or without drivers for that matter) are not symmetrical in load.

Now as far as the OEM values go, the ones I have (attached) show AC's 'stock'values to be within range, with the exception of rear toe, which can most certainly be set to within range.


They are not the same range for all settings.

The toe setting (on the right) is a range of 'clicks' you can set, the dynamic value (on the left) is the current actual value (and the one that uses the actual range for toe (in this case).

You are 100% correct Scaff. People should really only pay attention to the right hand side while they're testing and getting used to how the car feels in the simulator. We all know that no racing sim is 100% perfect, so a camber value of -1.2° on each front tire might feel a teeny bit differently from sim to sim.

After you've done some warmup laps, if you're not "feeling" it the way you would like, go into the Pits and make some changes. As you've pointed out, Scaff, with this particular car in OdeFinn's video, Kunos setup the car pretty much within the stock OEM alignment guide range.

The left hand side are the numbers coming out of the physics engine and therefore reflect differences with the car on an uneven ground. But setting up a car with 4 different camber values and 4 different Toe-in values SHOULD feel strange, I would think.

 

[Stotty]

I ignore the actual numbers on the right hand side (I think of them as simply +ve or -ve sliders)... for me, these are just relative adjustments up/down.

I make the changes and look at the actual values on the left side... but if the same slider number for a given setting gives a different actual number across the axle, I just average them out.

eg;

Slider for rear toe = 6 6
Actual toe appears as = 0.10 0.14
Rear toe is really = 0.12 0.12

They may flicker a point or 2, but I just ignore this.

I then adjust from there to get the effect I want... ie; adding or taking away toe to get less or more rotation.

 

[OdeFinn]

I didn't say it was not in part of coding issue, but to try and claim as you are that only AC has issues with deadzones on he G series wheels is nonsense.

Just weird thing at you with T300 know better what I feel on my G27, other developers harness FFB better on Logitech than kunos, i.e. Smart coder uses canned centering spring effect on overlap with FFB when going over top center, giving constant ffb feedback, other developers push FFB firmware override on deadzone and have zero deadzone on FFB, ways are several, kunos isn't using any of them, manually you can put something close to center by adding canned effect "road. FFB" on AC, cheap solution what's not good.

So I will ask you directly, are you saying that the degree of steering communication is on a par with them in a BMW?

Nowhere par, you're taking side path here, bmw is known from good road information to driver, including steeringwheel feel.

I'm saying (because its a fact) that as soon as you put a power assist on steering (and electric is worse for this than hydraulic), add bushes to the joints, hell even put a thicker rim on a steering wheel you remove feedback from the tyres to the steering wheel. That reduced feedback is then more susceptible to being coloured by feedback from the rest of the car.

No its not, it may be the worst for you, but to try and claim that other title don't also have issues with FFB deadzone on the G series wheels is to call a lot of people liars.

You happen to have first hand information how it feels on G series at PS4 with GTS, Dirt Rally and AC? I have.
But being serious:
Now I have spent quite many hours with this and only trying and trying to get my wheel feedback somehow decent, which I have now got, doing things what should be on default Logitech setup from Kunos.
So I'm using now following setup, btw there's no deadzone, just bad FFB profiling/coding, if you or your friend has Logitech wheel he should test following and say what he/you think (test car e92 on Nordschleife 27/29psi -0.3/-1.5° others stock)
89% Force Feedback
0% Kerb FFB
48% Road FFB
0% Slip FFB
Understeer Effects Off (way better feel of understeer on this combo when this is OFF)
Above gives a change to AC be a game for rainy days.

Now as far as the OEM values go, the ones I have (attached) show AC's 'stock'values to be within range, with the exception of rear toe, which can most certainly be set to within ra

Nice, only toe values then are just guessing/approximate what you get

 

[Scaff]

Just weird thing at you with T300 know better what I feel on my G27, other developers harness FFB better on Logitech than kunos, i.e. Smart coder uses canned centering spring effect on overlap with FFB when going over top center, giving constant ffb feedback, other developers push FFB firmware override on deadzone and have zero deadzone on FFB, ways are several, kunos isn't using any of them, manually you can put something close to center by adding canned effect "road. FFB" on AC, cheap solution what's not good.

Take a step back a moment and think about what you are actually using.

A non-compatable wheel, with decade old tech in it, running via a third party solution to make a console think its something its not.

Are you really that surprised that its not the optimum option to do for?

Nowhere par, you're taking side path here, bmw is known from good road information to driver, including steeringwheel feel.

For a road car yes, but its still not that great.

I ran a 320i M-Sport for 100,000 miles and can name quite a few road cars with better steering feel than it had.

You happen to have first hand information how it feels on G series at PS4 with GTS, Dirt Rally and AC? I have.

GTS no, AC and Dirt with a G29 yes. Just because I don't own one doesn't mean I've not used one.

But being serious:
Now I have spent quite many hours with this and only trying and trying to get my wheel feedback somehow decent, which I have now got, doing things what should be on default Logitech setup from Kunos.

I will repeat what I said above.

You are using a non-compatable wheel, with decade old tech in it, running via a third party solution to make a console think its something its not.

I know you most likely don't want to hear it, but with a T300 or similar AC has the best build of steering weight of any title on the PS4. Its degree of smoothness both while building and reducing is second to none right now.

So I'm using now following setup, btw there's no deadzone, just bad FFB profiling/coding, if you or your friend has Logitech wheel he should test following and say what he/you think (test car e92 on Nordschleife 27/29psi -0.3/-1.5° others stock)
89% Force Feedback
0% Kerb FFB
48% Road FFB
0% Slip FFB
Understeer Effects Off (way better feel of understeer on this combo when this is OFF)
Above gives a change to AC be a game for rainy days.

Why is understeer effect 'way better' when off?

Nice, only toe values then are just guessing/approximate what you get

Would you like to compare them to how accurate GT gets it settings?

And the front toe is fine, just set the E92 M3 to either 10 or 11 and they it will be within tolerance for the real thing.

 

[OdeFinn]

Why is understeer effect 'way better' when off?

Cuts FFB, clean FFB curve takes side kicks from it, above gives better understeer feel without it.

 

[Scaff]

Cuts FFB, clean FFB curve takes side kicks from it, above gives better understeer feel without it.

You are aware that a sudden and large loss of steerijng weight is exactly what happens in reality when you exceed the slip angle of the front tyres and understeer?

I even gave you a graph above that shows exactly what happens when understeer kicks in.

How AC shows it with understeer effects on is pretty much how it actually happens (a percentage range slider would however be nice), down to even getting how the effect is more pronounced with FWD cars (it gets my old Alfa pretty much spot on).

Its even an easy one to test for yourself. Take a pencil eraser and push down on it from above, maintaining a steady pressure start to rotate it. You will find that the force required to do so will build (that the same as steering weight increasing - its called self aligning torque), you will at some point reach a limit however (the tyres peak slip angle) and it will let go. Not slowly, but very suddenly (that's the sudden reduction in steering weight).

 

[OdeFinn]

You are aware that a sudden and large loss of steerijng weight is exactly what happens in reality when you exceed the slip angle of the front tyres and understeer?

I even gave you a graph above that shows exactly what happens when understeer kicks in.

How AC shows it with understeer effects on is pretty much how it actually happens (a percentage range slider would however be nice), down to even getting how the effect is more pronounced with FWD cars (it gets my old Alfa pretty much spot on).

Its even an easy one to test for yourself. Take a pencil eraser and push down on it from above, maintaining a steady pressure start to rotate it. You will find that the force required to do so will build (that the same as steering weight increasing - its called self aligning torque), you will at some point reach a limit however (the tyres peak slip angle) and it will let go. Not slowly, but very suddenly (that's the sudden reduction in steering weight).

That last setting "understeer effects" are extras to give more effect than "real ffb" setting is giving, this said kunos dude on some interview, and yes it's possible to feel understeer on mentioned ffb setup, felt better if not confusing FFB signal with bonus understeer mimicking.

 

[Scaff]

That last setting "understeer effects" are extras to give more effect than "real ffb" setting is giving, this said kunos dude on some interview, and yes it's possible to feel understeer on mentioned ffb setup, felt better if not confusing FFB signal with bonus understeer mimicking.

Did you actually read my post?

OK I must just be making it up, as must that Gough plot above.

Now if you want to be 100% accurate you would switch it on for cars with no power steering or electronic power steering (as they drop SAL like a stone) and off for cars with hydraulic power steering (as they don't as the hydraulic system keeps weight in the system).