PURE | JGTS - Going on strong and adapting in the face of change!

[Dr_Watson]

well, I'll end my policy discussions for the current issue by saying I'm 100% against changing anything historical. I of course *will* do it... but my mind is pretty made up that nothing good can come of it. I'm never a fan of re-writing history, but even less so when variables are dependent on said history.

 

[Denilson]

Lol, Litchi.. I feel the same.. I just type.. If it's hard to understand, I don't know.. Just type man!! 👍

 

[Denilson]

Well, Tim.. I'm sorry.. I do understand your point of view, but you don't hear what I say at all... Or?

Key to get to some kind of combined decition is that we listen to eachother imo.. If what I wrote did not make any sence at all, so be it..

 

[OwensRacing]

When races are dropped they are done so on individual bases.

Their drops shouldn't have any global effects outside the points total.

An earned spot in a race. Is an earned spot. Just because guy finish in front drops that race. Doesn't mean you get to move up ladder.

The other guy dropping race got those points. If he would of missed a race. Then this race would be taken. So I just don't see why the finish positions from finished races would be shuffled over an individual decision only pertaining to total points.

Other way, take all race points. No drops.

I missed one and planned to skip The Ring if we are doing it. I think so.

So taking every race would not help me really. It seems a great way to eliminate any issues.

 

[Denilson]

So if we take it as far as possible..

If we're 20 drivers signed up for round 1, and by round 10, only 5 drivers remaain.. How can we sort the individual standings if the driver who most likely ended up on top in each race win?? The gap down to 2nd (given that 2nd was actually behind the 15 who dropped) would be too big.. When comparing the drivers that actually took part in the chip.. Drivers who do not stay the entire chip are ghosts imo.

And to get a final table that reflect what really happend thru the championship between the drivers that actually stayed (the ones I care about) commited is what I want..

 

[SuperSic]

So if we take it as far as possible..

If we're 20 drivers signed up for round 1, and by round 10, only 5 drivers remaain.. How can we sort the individual standings if the driver who most likely ended up on top in each race win?? The gap down to 2nd (given that 2nd was actually behind the 15 who dropped) would be too big.. When comparing the drivers that actually took part in the chip.. Drivers who do not stay the entire chip are ghosts imo.

And to get a final table that reflect what really happend thru the championship between the drivers that actually stayed (the ones I care about) commited is what I want..

As i said earlier, what you say makes sense only if your goal is to minimize the points gap between the high-finishing and lower-finishing drivers. But again,as i said earlier, i think there are already rules that try to accomplish that (success ballast for examle) so in my opinion there is no need for another one.

 

[GV27]

Owens I think he's not talking about results dropping. He's just talking about those who leave the series? That's what I understand, at least.

 

[Denilson]

GV, you got it! 👍

Tony: I don't want to "minimize" the gap.. I want the point table to reflect the difference between the drivers that actually did stay commited.

 

[CSLACR]

GV, you got it! 👍

Tony: I don't want to "minimize" the gap.. I want the point table to reflect the difference between the drivers that actually did stay commited.

Of course I'll have an opinion.

It's a good concept, I do understand where you're coming from. You want the points to reflect where everyone here finished races, not including those that only raced once or twice.

WiiFreak would have earned 20KG from 1st round.
He skipped 2nd round, raced third without ballast, earned 40KG more.

That's basically it for ballast, but it certainly is something. Dennis would have had 20KG in theory from round 2, but would have been dropped in the Nurb F race easily.

So on the ballast bit it's nothing major, but it is something.
But if we go inside the races and view how the other cars placement and events affected other cars on the track, etc, there's no telling where everything could stand. For example, NOSS crashed into Denilson at Nurb F, so I'm sure that had an effect, as an example.

I don't think it's the end of the world either way, and I appreciate the concept, but I do agree it's much easier and more accurate to just leave the standings from each race as they really were.

But basically, we've already had 2 races where in theory drivers would have had some extra ballast. One had no real consequence because the driver didn't fare well, but the other nabbed 2nd overall. 20KG's may not have changed his finishing status, but I can't deny it would have changed the race.

I think it's best to leave what's done done, and move on from here. I finished 8th at Suzuka, to me that should mean points for 8th, regardless of drivers in front of me dropping out afterwards.

 

[Dr_Watson]

Well, Tim.. I'm sorry.. I do understand your point of view, but you don't hear what I say at all... Or?

Key to get to some kind of combined decition is that we listen to eachother imo.. If what I wrote did not make any sence at all, so be it..

I respect your position and I fully understand where you're coming from. You want the championship chase to only reflect current driver's performance against each other.
My arguments go well beyond the issue of the ballast; so I'll express my full statement here.

Tinkering with history turns the points table into a moving target. No one will ever know where they really stand since at any moment someone could drop out and reconfigure the table. Imagine the fun to be had if you're in 3rd in week 8 and the driver in 5th drops out. He happens to be someone you finished in front of the whole season but the guy behind you in 4th may have been beaten by mr 5th place a few times giving him enough *fake points* to pass you for the podium spot.

I'm a stats nerd so I keep facts and figures sacred but when it comes to competition I'm also not one who wants to grab a rung just because someone else fell off of it. What happened on the track happened on the track. If I got beat by someone who dropped out, I still got beat by them and I don't want their points.

And what if someone decided to pop in for a race in a customer car? I mean, they're not really *ghosts* they're just not on a team any more.

 

[Imari]

Tinkering with history turns the points table into a moving target.

Does that really matter? The objective at any given time is to finish as high as possible. The difference being that you may not know how high is high enough, which is probably a good thing. It leads to people continuing to push to finish higher, rather than settling for a safe but lower position.

I think I can support the historical tinkering, because come to the end of the season it's going to lead to closer fights for final positions. I think that's more interesting than some people being so far ahead that the lead is unassailable. As with the ballast rule, it's intended to keep everyone close and in contention. I think that's a worthy goal, despite the perceived "unfairness" of it.

 

[GV27]

All in all, however, I do not expect anyone else to really leave the series, after we're past this point. And I trust you all enough to imagine you guys won't do anything that will get you kicked out of it.

 

[CSLACR]

Does that really matter? The objective at any given time is to finish as high as possible. The difference being that you may not know how high is high enough, which is probably a good thing. It leads to people continuing to push to finish higher, rather than settling for a safe but lower position.

I think I can support the historical tinkering, because come to the end of the season it's going to lead to closer fights for final positions. I think that's more interesting than some people being so far ahead that the lead is unassailable. As with the ballast rule, it's intended to keep everyone close and in contention. I think that's a worthy goal, despite the perceived "unfairness" of it.

That's a point. But giving people credit for podiums when they never had ballast defies the ballast system.
There are so many variables it could spell disaster. Dare I say it's also not Pure and simple either.

I've already shown how WiiFreak would have needed ballast for Nurb F, where he scored second overall. How many races do we want to have to potentially dig through? How many races that according to points standings a driver would need ballast, but never raced with it because he didn't earn ballast?

We're talking about something that could destroy the ballast system, would already affect it from the start with something that can't be changed, among other things.
We can't just throw ballast on one guy while another takes 4th 5 times and then all of a sudden give that guy credit for finishing third 5 times despite him never driving with ballast once.

To me fair is very much the point. I can't put stake into something and really care about results if I know any random factor could change the standings after they've happened. It's not fair.
We have the ballast system for equalizing cars already, and it's working great, I don't see a need to tinker with that just for something that "might" work. (Even though there's already a race it should have affected)

 

[Denilson]

I honestly think that some of you overrate the ballast.. 20 kg more or less does not have that much affect on the outcome as a whole.. There's no way...

Imo, it's like giving a pig a hair-cut (Sweedish saying).. Lol

 

[paulmac2k9]

You sweeds can be crazy when you want to be cant you .....

 

[Dr_Watson]

You sweeds can be crazy when you want to be cant you .....

Unfortunately the people that can afford them more often than not end up putting it in someone's back yard in Long Island

back on-topic... little web update I did over the weekend.
* ballast tracker is up on the standings page
* your home screen now has a standings table for you and your team mate

 

[CSLACR]

I honestly think that some of you overrate the ballast.. 20 kg more or less does not have that much affect on the outcome as a whole.. There's no way...

Imo, it's like giving a pig a hair-cut (Sweedish saying).. Lol

I'm not saying it would, but it could. We add ballast to 3rd place for a reason though.
It's more about what it could lead to then what it would mean at this moment. I'm not incredibly concerned if we do it right now, but we certainly can't repeat it. Also WiiFreak will need 60KG ballast next race instead of just 40KG if we do it.

I do like the concept, it's the ballast system that's the issue. If we do this, I'd really like to hear 2 things: 1. That WiiFreak of course has ballast for 3rd in the race he'd be given third for ballast system integrity 2. We won't be doing it again in the season.
If nothing else that would make it much simpler. I'd really like to avoid the worst case scenario from this.

Only because I do see the logic - There's 24 of us racing every week (or close to) and to compete solely with each other, means it's unfair to have other drivers rankings spreading us farther apart.
I would bring up reserves but I've yet to see that happen, I'm actually to the point where I find "reserve" lists pretty well useless in general. We've had spots for reserves 3 out of 4 weeks already.

 

[Dr_Watson]

If we're not going to do it later in the season if more people drop... why do it now? That makes doing it now even more farcical.

 

[CSLACR]

If we're not going to do it later in the season if more people drop... why do it now? That makes doing it now even more farcical.

Because right now there's only one small ballast issue I guess. It was more of a compromise suggestion.

You're totally right imo though, I don't see the warrant for it. I do appreciate the concept though, which is, if Remy isn't racing in the championship, why would he be taking positions away from people?

To me "bringing points closer" isn't the issue at all. I would still prefer we leave it be.

 

[Dr_Watson]

Because right now there's only one small ballast issue I guess. It was more of a compromise suggestion.

You're totally right imo though, I don't see the warrant for it. I do appreciate the concept though, which is, if Remy isn't racing in the championship, why would he be taking positions away from people?

To me "bringing points closer" isn't the issue at all. I would still prefer we leave it be.

What I mean is that if it's done now, it has to set a precedent. Because if it doesn't get done later, being done now for 'fairness' is kind of hypocritical; since apparently equality doesn't matter later in the year?

 

[Denilson]

I'm drunk, and wont comment right away.. CSL kind of get me Tho..

 

[Dr_Watson]

D1 Results:
1. chorda ----- -TT: 1:29:58970 - GAP: -:--.---
2. Joshua1994 --- TT: 1:30.07.260 - GAP: + 8.290
3. Paginas - TT: 1:30:38.818 - GAP: + 39.848
4. LitchiGTPlay - TT: 1:30.48.567 - GAP: + 49.597
5. tony1311 - TT: 1:30:50.766 - GAP: + 51.796
6. Ansem29_GTPlay - TT: 1:30:51.539 - GAP: + 52.569
7. RedReevos - TT: 1:31:11.025 - GAP: + 1:12.055
8. GV27- - TT: 1:31:20 - GAP: + 1:21.488
9. GTP_CSL - TT: 1:31:29.836 - GAP: + 1:30.866
10. GTP_Welsh-Bain - TT: 1:31:34.380 - GAP: + 1:35.410
11. OwensRacing - TT: -:--:--.--- - GAP + ? laps
12/13. Aderrrm or Neomone

Quoted so I don't lose track of this... The results still need to be posted because we still need lots more information.

D1 - need fast laps and what lap people dropped out on
D2 - need fast laps, what lap people dropped out on, finishing order, total time, gaps...

OR, someone could post NTSC replays and I can get it all myself.

There were complaints that the ballast wasn't announced early enough for people to get qualifying in at the beginning of the week with their correct weight. Well, the sooner we get the data from the races the sooner we can update the ballast.
Data gathering is 99% of the work at this point, the math is all done on the background... but I can't do anything without numbers to punch in.

carry on.

 

[CSLACR]

I'm afraid it does get deeper.
Aderrrm, SuperSic, and Denilson, would have each had 20 extra KG's after Spa... And WiiFreak after Suzuka would have had 20kg's.

That means all 4 would have had 20 extra KG's for Nurb F race.
Tony Won, and WiiFreak got 2nd.

BUT - On a general note, it's essentially free points to everyone, so is it a big deal? TA won Spa, so every single person would gain points, I'm not sure ballast is a big concern then. How can I complain that somebody bumped from 4th to 3rd didn't get ballast, when I'm being given (example) and extra spot myself?
They didn't do what was required at the time to earn ballast, so if we're all getting a free position or two in our races (or most of us) I'm not sure it's really an issue.

It gains everyone at least 1 spot in 1 race, I'm not sure it's a big deal the more I think about it.

Tim - Aderrrm posted the only existing copy of replay from D1, everyone else DC'd after the race. No NTSC exists.

 

[Denilson]

Don't mess with Christian Von Koenigsegg.. LOL

 

[OwensRacing]

don't mess with christian von koenigsegg.. Lol

lol

 

[CSLACR]

I think for now on, when a host of a series does something you don't agree with, you can always look back, and say to yourself:

"At least they don't pull off **** like this"

That is amazing, by the way.

I absolutely had to get up to go unlock the front door to let my wife in the house while there was still eight laps to go in the race. It was 40° outside and she is four months pregnant. I didn't have a choice.

At the time, I was running in what would become the lead three-car pack with ACDC and MStall. I had plenty of tire and gas, having pitted on lap 22. I asked over the voice chat if anyone had any objection to me pulling over (because I had to), and crediting me with a third place finish, which was the absolute worst I could have logically finished with such a short distance remaining and no further pitting required in the race. At least three people agreed, and no one objected (ahem, out loud, Knelly ). I pulled over, and did not move again until after the race was over, so as not to have ANY effect, good or bad, on anyone else's race.

I hung around until the end of the race for two reasons. I needed to maintain my connection for the duration of the race, so that no one could say I might have disconnected (at least three others did disconnect) and couldn't have finished third. Plus, I still needed to save the replay.

I'm thinking if I'm doing well in a race towards the end I might need to go unlock my door too.
He even took credit for passing a guy or two!

(He also later said that nobody can do it from now on, meaning he's the only one ever allowed to pull this off essentially) LMFAO

 

[paulmac2k9]

This shows the stupidness of Nascar fans (no offence to anyone who may like them here just hes a bad sterotype )

Also Den some say he was a volvo saftey engineer before he went insane and started making his own cars ..... which we all know are equaly crazy .

(How id love to get some in GT5 to see how insane they drive )

 

[CSLACR]

This shows the stupidness of Nascar fans (no offence to anyone who may like them here just hes a bad sterotype

Perhaps you meant "stupidity"?

Stupidity knows no bounds, and to be honest, I take offense to that and I don't even care for NASCAR that much.
It's as good a stereotype as black people all being criminals.

 

[Wardez]

This series is better than Scottish beach resorts.

 

[paulmac2k9]

What I meant was he said he wasnt going to be overtaken if he never stopped so claimed 3rd but in a race on a track, for e.g Laguna I doubt very much you could say the same thing as ovals are just (esp daytona where they were) flat out. With Laguna or any other track you could have a huge lead on the next guy but have an off and still lose many places esp if damage is heavy. Hence why I said it was more Nascar fans thinking than a BTCC or any other circuit racing fan (GT ect ect). As I said I never meant to offend anyone just saying no other people would think like that only Nascar fans.

Edit: Oops (In my defence oh mighty Wardez I was typing since 1:05am )

To lighten up the mood as Den said before dont mess with Christian Von Koenigsegg this is his wife