Questioning Religion

[Delirious]

read what i stated above...we can give them all the evidence in the world but they will not believe unless they have faith and repent from their sins, and we need to PRAY for their salvation that God will speak to their hearts and soften them...since weve only been able to speak to their proud and arrogant intellectual minds

 

[Ten]

read what i stated above...we can give them all the evidence in the world but they will not believe unless they have faith and repent from their sins, and we need to PRAY for their salvation that God will speak to their hearts and soften them...since weve only been able to speak to their proud and arrogant intellectual minds

Proud and arrogant? Who the hell...

You know what? Go ahead, pray all you want for me. I'm sure in time, God will forgive me for all my sins, and for not sleeping with women, and for not spending my time praising some one I don't even know exists...

You two are the kind of christians I can't ****ING STAND. I'm done. Reason has no place in the house of the lord, it seems.

Welcome to my ****ing ignore list. I'm tired of hearing how badly I'm going to burn in the fires of hell for daring to think for myself.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

No problem XVII.

I think you and SuperCobra did an good job trying to tell everyone about the bible and Christianity. Unfortunately, as Anderton try to tell you guys before, this isn't a good place to do it. Members you've been debating with, they made up their mind about God long time ago. Just like how you won't change your mind about God, they won't change theirs either, at least not this way.

SuperCobraJet: You have an amazing personality. 👍

Don't underestimate the power of God. Remember with him, all things are possible. Thanks for the compliment. Very kind indeed.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Proud and arrogant? Who the hell...

You know what? Go ahead, pray all you want for me. I'm sure in time, God will forgive me for all my sins, and for not sleeping with women, and for not spending my time praising some one I don't even know exists...

You two are the kind of christians I can't ****ING STAND. I'm done. Reason has no place in the house of the lord, it seems.

Welcome to my ****ing ignore list. I'm tired of hearing how badly I'm going to burn in the fires of hell for daring to think for myself.

Are you trying to say your gay?Don't get all torqued up. You already left once
and came back. On our own were no more righteous than you or anybody else
and God don't love us no more than he does any one else. You will have to humble yourself and admit God knows more than you do. I'd call that pretty
good reasoning.

 

[Sage]

… and to pray that they lose their intellectual pride and listen to their hearts instead…

Oh no, you totally lost me there. This goes with Duke's comment about the "Fruit of Knowledge" being sinful; man's greatest trait is that it has the capability of rational thought, and yet you tell me that I shouldn't be intelligent? (And what on earth do you mean by "listen to their hearts", because I'm sure you don't mean our physical hearts, which is nothing more than a muscle.) I quite enjoy intelligent thinking, thank you very much. The Internet wouldn't be here if someone didn't have "intellectual pride", nor would the chair you're sitting in, the carpet/tiling in your house, your house itself (architects have to do a lot of thinking – just ask neon_duke), your clothes, your computer… oh, and, it takes learning to write, so the Bible was written by someone with intellectual pride.

SuperCobraJet – I could point out several dozen instances of you evading questions/facts in this thread (same with XVII), but I'm not sure either of you care. You two should be ashamed – I've had wonderful conversations with Pako concerning religion, because he's willing to actually discuss, answer questions, provide evidence, etc.; on the other hand, you two keep repeating the same things over and over again and have totally evaded 99% of what Famine, Duke, and a few others have said or presented to you. You have no idea how lousy that behavior makes a conversation. And yes, I'm obviously annoyed… normally, I avoid "calling out" people like this, but 10 of the 11 pages of this thread consists of roundabout conversation that's going nowhere.

[/rant]

Okay, I'm done. If I see useful, constructive conversation, I'll chip in a few pennies, but if not, I'll just stay out.

 

[Pako]

Thanks Sage for pointing that out. Mature discussions without name calling is the medium of choice for these topics. Please omit further slanderous remarks as they have no place here.

 

[Ten]

And to Pako and Sage, I'm sorry for the immaturity in my last post. I'll be leaving this thread for good now, as any questions I had/have are going to find no resolution anyway.

My deepest apologies to anyone who may have been offended, but when you look at the quote in my last post, can you really blame me for being upset? Still, no excuse for my behavior. Enjoy the conversation. My problem with SuperCobraJet and XVII has been resolved, both of them on my block list. You'll hear no more from me in neither this, nor the Spongebob or Gift threads.

 

[PS]

I think, to promote the quote by N_D, rational thought would only compel us to doubt the existence of God even more. So, XVII, what are your thoughts on rational thought?

[edit]And I was going to ask him when his signature got off its little hiatus...

 

[Delirious]

define rational thought for me so were on the same page

and by intellectual pride, i mean that in the strictest since to the relevant topics in this forum only

i would love to discuss...i just have a bit difficult time doing that on a forum

 

[Sage]

My interpretation of rational thought is the ability to make sophisticated, logical conclusions. Animals have a very, very limited form of rational thought, in that some of them can go slightly beyond instinct – the ability for our raccoons, for example, to figure out that by standing outside our house they'll be able to get food. It's very limited rationality though, because it's simply "event A leads to event B". There are a couple animals capable of rational thought (one gray parrot I've read about comes to mind), but it's mostly limited to humans.

For human rational thought, it's the ability to make conclusions—even predictions—based on one or more events and by using a logical process (i.e., deductive or inductive reasoning or something along similar lines).

 

[SuperCobraJet]

To Sage
I'm not sure if I have specifically addressed one of your comments or not. There's a whole lot of commenting going on here with different people and at varied intervals. At any rate it is not my intention to evade a question. If it was I propably wouldn't answer at all. I think the problem is more a matter of finding some common ground which can take considerable time and posts when two parties are starting out a long ways apart. I will try to make every
effort that I can to be forthright in the future and keep an eye on those ps and qs.

 

[Duke]

What do you mean by "running circles around the questions" I'm answering them aint I. EGG ON BABY.

Actually, based upon what you've been taught and how you've been raised (which of course I'm assuming, since I've never met you), you may actually think you are answering everyone's questions.

But trust me, by any kind of logical standard of debate or even intelligible discussion, you have hardly answered anything.

 

[Duke]

define rational thought for me so were on the same page

I did so at the top of this page.

There is a consciousness here that I define as "me", which receives auditory, olfactory, tactile, and visual stimuli from the world around me. That consciousness is capable of processing this information and using it to make predictions based on observed phenomena. This ability to make informed decisions from predictions based on objective reality is called 'rational thought'.

And therein resides my soul.

 

[Minnesota01R6]

wow, this stuff gave me a headache. as far as creation vs evolution goes, I would suggest everyone take a look at this link

It's a long read, but very good.

I also think that there's really 2 different discussions going on here: 1, there is a "is there a god" discussion and 2, there is a "who's religion is right discussion.

Not all religions say that animals other than humans are incapable of abstract thought.

 

[Famine]

it's useless giving these guys proof that God does exist...we could give them all the proof in the world...but they will not believe unless they have faith in God and repent of their sins,

You've also not noticed that logic dictates that where proof exists, faith does not. Ergo there can be no proof of your Faith or your God since proof denies the existence of faith. Proof of God's existence is actually proof of God's non-existence.

And please don't "pray" for me. I find that offensive and patronising.

 

[Minnesota01R6]

Damn I wish I had your brain famine.

I am not being sarcastic, I seriously mean it. You are one smart mofo. I just had to say that because you are insanely good at making rock solid logical arguments

 

[Ten]

After a lot of thought, and some time to calm down after going off earlier, I've un-ignored XVII and SuperCobraJet. I just needed some time to think about it all, and I'm sorry again for the way I reacted.

Just one more thing before I leave this thread. More of a statement than a question...

If God loves all his children, aren't I good enough as I am?

Let's say I look at it from your viewpoint - does it make sense? If he loves us all unconditionally, then why are there so many conditions to be met to be accepted by his followers? I've put a lot of thought into why I left "the faith" recently, and this is one of those random questions that popped up.

All I've learned from you so far is that being christian means you're rude, intolerant, and condescending. Being a former follower of the word of God, I feel you misrepresent the faith. If you're going to preach, please, by all means do so. But watch your own words...

...because they hurt more than they help.

This isn't debate. This isn't me calling you out. This isn't a last ditch effort to seem profound.

I don't want to fight about it anymore. I just want to know why if the Lord is so accepting, why can't you be? How can you claim to follow his ways, yet be so cold to those who don't?

 

[Delirious]

your guys choice if you believe or not...

 

[Anderton Prime]

Ten:

Here's my theory behind the "conditions" involved with being accepted into God's domain. I think you have to look at the time period when the Bible was written. Since it was written by men, not God, you have to factor in the social and political climate of the time. Homosexuals worked against the natural progression of humankind by being unable to reproduce. The same theory can apply to why women were supposed to be submissive to their husbands, because men ruled the household and the world back then and it simply would not do to have women rise up and become even a little bit powerful.

While I don't agree with any of this tripe, I've included it to show you that I think God has been severely misinterpreted by man, particularly through organized religion. If you are in any way seeking love and acceptance from Him, and think maybe because the Bible says that men sleeping with men is a sin that you will not be accepted by Him, worry not. The God I know - and I know him not from any Church but from my own heart - will accept anyone who wants to be accepted, regardless of past sins. As long as you are a good person and are fundamentally all about peace, love, and understanding (which by your posts I have already deduced that you are) you are going to be fine.

This doesn't mean you have to change a single thing about your lifestyle. God gave you life and freedom, do what you like while you're on earth. Only through acceptance of EVERY human being on this planet do any of us have a chance in Hell of being "saved." Pun intended.

 

[Pako]

After a lot of thought, and some time to calm down after going off earlier, I've un-ignored XVII and SuperCobraJet. I just needed some time to think about it all, and I'm sorry again for the way I reacted.

Just one more thing before I leave this thread. More of a statement than a question...

If God loves all his children, aren't I good enough as I am?

Let's say I look at it from your viewpoint - does it make sense? If he loves us all unconditionally, then why are there so many conditions to be met to be accepted by his followers? I've put a lot of thought into why I left "the faith" recently, and this is one of those random questions that popped up.

All I've learned from you so far is that being christian means you're rude, intolerant, and condescending. Being a former follower of the word of God, I feel you misrepresent the faith. If you're going to preach, please, by all means do so. But watch your own words...

...because they hurt more than they help.

This isn't debate. This isn't me calling you out. This isn't a last ditch effort to seem profound.

I don't want to fight about it anymore. I just want to know why if the Lord is so accepting, why can't you be? How can you claim to follow his ways, yet be so cold to those who don't?

I'll try to answer your question the best I can. God does love you unconditionally not matter what! To bring some real world examples, I love my children unconditionally. If they do something wrong, I still love them and feel a joy just watching them live. I also have to guide and direct their actions. Just because I love them doesn't mean I let them do what ever they want.

I don't see a bunch of "don'ts" in Christianity, what I see is a promise, "for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that who so ever believes in Him, shall not parish but have eternal life."

That's it. If you believe in Christ, God's promise is that you will live forever. Seems like a fair enough trade. As Giles pointed out, hedging his bet seems like the smart thing to do. Everything else falls into place, and the more you get into it the more you want to please God with your actions because it brings Him joy.
And with that is a humility and gratitude for the life that we have been given.

 

[Gil]

After a lot of thought, and some time to calm down after going off earlier, I've un-ignored XVII and SuperCobraJet. I just needed some time to think about it all, and I'm sorry again for the way I reacted.

Just one more thing before I leave this thread. More of a statement than a question...

If God loves all his children, aren't I good enough as I am?

Let's say I look at it from your viewpoint - does it make sense? If he loves us all unconditionally, then why are there so many conditions to be met to be accepted by his followers? I've put a lot of thought into why I left "the faith" recently, and this is one of those random questions that popped up.

All I've learned from you so far is that being christian means you're rude, intolerant, and condescending. Being a former follower of the word of God, I feel you misrepresent the faith. If you're going to preach, please, by all means do so. But watch your own words...

...because they hurt more than they help.

This isn't debate. This isn't me calling you out. This isn't a last ditch effort to seem profound.

I don't want to fight about it anymore. I just want to know why if the Lord is so accepting, why can't you be? How can you claim to follow his ways, yet be so cold to those who don't?

I realize that the last paragraph of your post isn't addressed to me, but I'd like to answer, if I may.

In my very first entry into this thread, I stated that God will meet you where you are.
If you look at the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) you will note that Jesus didn't hang out with the "people of high stature" in the community.
He hung with fishermen (the equivalent of today's longshoremen), tax collectors, and other "undesirables".
Jesus hung with a bunch of "thugs". They didn't change overnight. They did, at times, continue to sin. (Peter cut the ear of a guy that was trying to take Jesus away to be crucified).
You don't have to "change" to come to God. You don't have to give up your free will to be a Christian. If you come to Him, He will provide the "changes" for you.
As for "conditions": You aren't looking to be accepted by the "followers" of the Christ. You are looking to be accepted by Christ.
And he has accepted far worse than any of us, at our lowest point.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I hope we can jumpstart this thread and get her going again. However I would like to make a request of eveyone first. Please ask yourself as we continue, If I am being truly objectiive,why would I get offended? I am not offended by anything that has been said here,nor will I be. I used to think Christians were a bunch of KOOKS too. And intellectual processes were all there was to anything. You can yell, scream, rant, rave ,call me a nut all you want. Drive on
If your looking for a religion, pick one.
If your interested in how to be reconciled to a relationship with GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY , CREATOR OF HEAVEN and EARTH, stick around you won't regret it.
Ten, I most sincerely apologize to you and for that matter any one else here, if you have the impression that I am condemning you. That is not my intention. Sin is sin and all the same ,no matter what category you fall under. We are all under one category or another and some can check "All of the above". The categorys are irrelavent. However sin does have grave categorical consequences and I don't know how to sugarcoat it so it sounds better. God does love and accept you just the way you are and he understands you better than you do yourself. But the big question is will you acknowledge and accept him for who
he is and what he's done for you.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I'll try to answer your question the best I can. God does love you unconditionally not matter what! To bring some real world examples, I love my children unconditionally. If they do something wrong, I still love them and feel a joy just watching them live. I also have to guide and direct their actions. Just because I love them doesn't mean I let them do what ever they want.

I don't see a bunch of "don'ts" in Christianity, what I see is a promise, "for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that who so ever believes in Him, shall not parish but have eternal life."

That's it. If you believe in Christ, God's promise is that you will live forever. Seems like a fair enough trade. As Giles pointed out, hedging his bet seems like the smart thing to do. Everything else falls into place, and the more you get into it the more you want to please God with your actions because it brings Him joy.
And with that is a humility and gratitude for the life that we have been given.

BRAVO!BRAVO! well said

 

[Danoff]

Please ask yourself as we continue, If I am being truly objectiive,why would I get offended? I am not offended by anything that has been said here,nor will I be.

I have not been offended by anything said here, but I can see why one who is objective might get offended.

Telling an objective person that his/her lifestyle will result in an eternity of suffering has a tendancy to raise offense.

I would like to make a request of you. Ask yourself before you continue, "If I am being truly logical, why must I use the bible as evidence that the bible is true?"

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I hope we can jumpstart this thread and get her going again.

So you can get back on your soap box?

However I would like to make a request of eveyone first. Please ask yourself as we continue, If I am being truly objectiive,why would I get offended?

Ok..don't be offended when I tell you that your religion is no better than any other.

You can yell, scream, rant, rave ,call me a nut all you want. Drive on

Ok...you're a....

If your looking for a religion, pick one.

After all, they are all the same.

If your interested in how to be reconciled to a relationship with GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY , CREATOR OF HEAVEN and EARTH, stick around you won't regret it.

Being reconciled doesn't seem to have done you any favours, have a look at the way Pako and Gil respond, you have a lot to learn. The more you talk, the less I want to know

 

[Anderton Prime]

This is turning uglier with each succeeding post. Perhaps I'll post on each new page of this thread to remind people that believers will rarely get non-believers to change their minds (and NEVER online) and non-believers will rarely get believers to abandon their faith (and NEVER online.)

Or perhaps I'll wait with the rest of the non-partisan observers for the inevitable lock to show up and close this directionless argument. At least until the next New Member opens another new thread about religion.

I propose a new rule be added to the AUP. No more topics about religion or lack thereof.

After how many such threads what has changed? NOTHING.

 

[Gil]

right now i am question my faith. i feel like christianity was shoved down my throught and i was never really taught that its o.k to question my faith, but my parents taught me to think about the meaning and lesons in the bible. right now i am looking into different religeons and right now i am thinking of becoming budist or a satanist. i am going to the library and pick up some books and do some reserch on the 2 religeons. but im worried trying to explain to my die hard christion family why i have a book on satanism. tell me if you have ever questioned your faith.

Also in response to the first sentence to the first post. It is good for you to question your faith.

Because it ulimately needs to be your faith. Not the faith of your father. Not the faith of your mother. Not the faith of your friends, or your teachers.

The Bible says in the book of Timothy: "Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto the Lord"
To me that means take what you are told with a grain of salt. Do your research. Read the texts you are being taught from and ensure that you know it, not what some preacher, or teacher told you.
As far as satanism...I don't know why anyone would want to worship him. But I can see studying about him as being "tactically sound".
The Bible also says that even the demons believe in God, and Jesus, and they tremble in his presence.
Satan tried to get Jesus to bow down before him, promising him the world if he would just "change sides."
Gotta wonder why someone with the apparent strength of Satan would try to co-opt the very dude that was, according to the stories, sent here to save us?...
(Yes, that is rhetorical)

 

[Danoff]

This is turning uglier with each succeeding post.

Perhaps this is no exception.

Or perhaps I'll wait with the rest of the non-partisan observers for the inevitable lock to show up

I wouldn't call it inevitable - look at the other religion threads. Can you truly call yourself a non-partisan observer?

I propose a new rule be added to the AUP. No more topics about religion or lack thereof.

That's a terrible idea. Religion is one of the most interesting discussions we can have on the opinions board. What do you think we should talk about on this forum, cars?

After how many such threads what has changed? NOTHING.

Can you say that with certainty? Discussing religion and politics has done one thing for me if not anything else, it has allowed me to hone my view carefully such that if it is questioned I've actually thought through my position and can logically respond.

 

[Gil]

This is turning uglier with each succeeding post. Perhaps I'll post on each new page of this thread to remind people that believers will rarely get non-believers to change their minds (and NEVER online) and non-believers will rarely get believers to abandon their faith (and NEVER online.)

Or perhaps I'll wait with the rest of the non-partisan observers for the inevitable lock to show up and close this directionless argument. At least until the next New Member opens another new thread about religion.

I propose a new rule be added to the AUP. No more topics about religion or lack thereof.

After how many such threads what has changed? NOTHING.

Anderton, this may seem to be the case.
However, I've paid some attention to you since you got to the Planet. I've noticed that when you are passionate about a subject, whether for or against, you seem to answer with a lot of passion, but not a lot of thought or research.
Before, you get mad, realize that a lot of people do the very same thing.
Some do it purposefully in order to incite strife.
I believe that you are not among that group. I believe that most of what you believe, you do indeed believe passionately. That is a good, though sometimes hard to harness, quality.
Open your mind, take your time and chew on some of this stuff for a while. Swallow what you can agree with. Spit out (discreetly) what you can't.

The two things in this world you can't bring up with out raising some hackles are politics and religion.
But I believe that these conversations, and these numerous threads related to religion give us a chance to really delve into it. A lot of this stuff might be uncomfortable to talk about in a face to face arena. But here, because we're not face to face, and looking into each others eyes, it makes it somewhat harder to take each other's true meaning, but easier to say what's really on our minds, and that is entirely too valuable to just shut off with a change in the AUP.

 

[Pako]

I have not been offended by anything said here, but I can see why one who is objective might get offended.

Telling an objective person that his/her lifestyle will result in an eternity of suffering has a tendancy to raise offense.*snip*

I had to laugh, yes I thought it funny. Many preachers would shout hell and damnation to the unbelievers. This, to me, is a major turn-off. Trying to serve out of fear is not my idea of a good time. Again, Jesus' promise is of life, not death.....in my estimation.