Questioning Religion

[SuperCobraJet]

To claim that someone is telling me lies is pretty bold coming from someone who has no solid proof to back up the ideals he preaches. Faith is not proof. You're making me use science against you, and this was not my intention. I don't want to tell you that your faith is made up, or that it isn't real. But you're backing me into a corner and manipulating me into saying something that will go against you.

I'm not here to prove your faith wrong. I'm here to try and bridge a gap between your faith and the "faithless". We're all people, I don't see how those who believe and those who aren't have to be on different levels in the eyes of God. It hurts that you find me flawed, or a heathen or whatever else you can think up to make me feel bad about how I live my life.

All my life, my mother and my friends have told me that I'm fine how I am. What sets me apart makes me beautiful - what makes me different makes me human. I don't need to change to please anyone, and I damn sure won't change to please you. I'm not asking you to change, I'm asking you to understand.

I'm not trying to manipulate you. I just asked you a simple question.
Were all flawed. That was my point in the post before last.

You're damn right you can't convert me. If being converted means I'll be as intolerant and unwilling to accept the beautiful differences of humanity, then I'm damn happy where I am.

I'm not trying to manipulate you. I just asked you a simple question.
Were all flawed. That was my point to you in the post before last.
Better watch out, you don't want Sage coming on saying your evading questions.
He already got on me about that.
I believe your closer to converting than you realize.

 

[Delirious]

I believe your closer to converting than you realize.

he's gonna flip when he reads that

 

[PS]

First think of a generalization of the media, and what media stereotypes there are.
Second, think of hypocrisy, and anything hypocritical.
Third, think of what effects the media has recently had on teens.
And finally, think of the politics VS religion debates that have gone on for the past 2000 years. Of course it takes a little more than that to deciphre his bloody complex metaphors.

 

[Ten]

please put it in giant big letters for everyone to see in the midst of the entangled arguments and debates what is it that exactly is preventing you all to believe in God?

People such as yourself and SuperCobraJet.

I don't NOT believe in God. I give your faith, as well as any, the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe there is a God. Maybe there isn't. I'm not going to live my entire life on a giant "IF FACTOR". I can't submit myself to live by someone else's lifestyle forever. Eventually, something is going to happen that is going to clash with my beliefs - and I'll be damned if I'll let something like that hold me back in life.

Like, for instance. I'm gay. But let's say I met a girl that I somehow found attractive in both personality and a sexual sense. I wouldn't let my "sexual preference" hold me back from loving that woman the same as I would a man. The reason I am "gay" is because society has made a word for a man who sleeps with men and does not find women physically attractive. This wasn't God's work, this was man's.

I can't help that I don't find women attractive. It's not my fault. It's how my body and mind react to the sexes that determines who I sleep with. I won't force myself to sleep with a woman to "please God". You make it sound like we were put here to put on an elaborate show him, to please him and entertain him. Can you blame me for being turned away from that idea?

I don't care if God is real or not. I'm not asking for proof of his existance. I don't CARE if he is real. If he made all this, woohoo, thanks God, I appreciate it. What more is there to say? I'm not going to go out of my way to keep making him happy. God didn't put me here with his magic hand of creation, my mom and dad did with the magic of sex.

Now leave me the hell alone. I'd stop coming back into this damn thread if you'd stop giving me a reason to defend myself.

 

[Delirious]

my turn to post a song

He used to say, "Whoever dies with the most toys wins"
But if he loses his soul, what has he gained in the end
I'll take a shack on the rock
Over a castle in the sand
Now he works all day and cries alone at night
It's not getting any better
Looks like he's running out of time

(Chorus)
'Cause he worked and he built with his own two hands
And he poured all he had in a castle made with sand
But the wind and the rain are coming crashing in
Time will tell just how long his kingdom stands
His kingdom stands

anyone wanna take a shot at who sings this?

 

[PS]

You go guy! (Ten)

I have no idea. but the reason I posted mine was to show you something else, but then you had to go off and be all curious.

 

[Delirious]

well then lets start this the right way without any personal attacks, ten...

do you believe in God?

 

[PS]

He doesn't not believe in him, which means he's unbiased about the matter.

[edit]The creation of god from the perspective of my friend Britt (remmeber the dream- Chick Trouble thread II):

Brittany. says:
i know! some crackhead caveman probably just came up with this stupid story when he was high on.....whatever they did back then.....rock flakes i dunno

 

[Ten]

I don't know if I believe in God. Mainly because I don't care if he is real. You seem dead set that he is, others seem dead set that he is not.

I'm dead set that it isn't my business to fret about it. I have more important things to worry about than how all life came to be. Things like paying my school tuition, or the rent, or car insurance, or where I'll be tomorrow.

 

[Delirious]

your life...do you ever consider things such as whatever happens after death? purposes in life? (notice i have not mentioned anything concerning religion)

 

[SuperCobraJet]

i dont think any christian knows why God created adam and eve since God knew adam and eve were going to mess up...God knew they were gonna mess up, perhaps to set an example for us

i didnt understand the lyrics you posted above anyhow (PS meaning you)

you asked for evidence, theres your evidence...

plus i was offline...this forum is really becoming addictive and im trying to cut my time on here

He created them that way because he didn't want a robot. He wanted them to
choose of their own free will to trust and obey him and by doing so remain in relationship with him. He only gave them one commandment. On the other hand he certainly knew that there was a distinct possibility they wouldn't, and had
a contingency plan in place for it. (Christ was slain before the foundation of the
world) In the planning stages Christ agreed to make the sacrifice if they messed it up.

 

[PS]

He created them that way because he didn't want a robot. He wanted them to
choose of their own free will to trust and obey him and by doing so remain in relationship with him. He only gave them one commandment. On the other hand he certainly knew that there was a distinct possibility they wouldn't, and had
a contingency plan in place for it. (Christ was slain before the foundation of the
world) In the planning stages Christ agreed to make the sacrifice if they messed it up.

Sounds pretty sadistic and kaniving if you ask me.

 

[Ten]

your life...do you ever consider things such as whatever happens after death? purposes in life? (notice i have not mentioned anything concerning religion)

I've seen people die. They go into a hole in the ground because their body doesn't work anymore. I'm alive right now. I'll worry about alive things. I don't know what's on the other side, so I'll just have to wait and see. I'll cross that bridge when I get there - which hopefully won't be any time soon.

 

[Delirious]

purpose in life at all?

by the way,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

these things we speak sound like foolishness unto you guys...you really dont understand them since you guys are spiritually discerned...aka not saved...

 

[PS]

I don't think you can get into that too much without getting into religion, which obviously isn;t at the top of Ten's priority list. ([edit] or mine for that matter)

 

[Ten]

My purpose is what I make of it. I want to become a mechanical engineer, hopefully some day I'll design, modify, or just plain service cars for a living. I don't feel we're born with purpose. I feel we come into it as we decide where we want our life to go, and as the oppurtunities to steer in that direction are made apparent.

I base this on life experience - and the fact that underpriveledged children and homeless bums on the street die alone and cold every day. Surely their "grand purpose" wasn't to die miserable. You give your own purpose to your own existense. If I were to leave everything to destiny, I'd just sit here all day on my computer and wait for life to take it's course. Surely if I was "destined" for something, it'd just happen no matter what I'd do.

 

[PS]

purpose in life at all?

by the way,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

these things we speak sound like foolishness unto you guys...you really dont understand them since you guys are spiritually discerned...aka not saved...

You mean conned?

 

[PS]

My purpose is what I make of it. I want to become a mechanical engineer, hopefully some day I'll design, modify, or just plain service cars for a living. I don't feel we're born with purpose. I feel we come into it as we decide where we want our life to go, and as the oppurtunities to steer in that direction are made apparent.

I base this on life experience - and the fact that underpriveledged children and homeless bums on the street die alone and cold every day. Surely their "grand purpose" wasn't to die miserable. You give your own purpose to your own existense. If I were to leave everything to destiny, I'd just sit here all day on my computer and wait for life to take it's course. Surely if I was "destined" for something, it'd just happen no matter what I'd do.

Well, some people could argue that whatever path you took in life WAS your destiny, but I'm not getting in to that. There are WAAY too many factors to consider. I found The Butterfly Effect a nice contrary to that, though.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

purpose in life at all?

by the way,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

these things we speak sound like foolishness unto you guys...you really dont understand them since you guys are spiritually discerned...aka not saved...

This is true.(make that "not spiritually discerned".

 

[Ten]

Well, some people could argue that whatever path you took in life WAS your destiny, but I'm not getting in to that. There are WAAY too many factors to consider. I found The Butterfly Effect a nice contrary to that, though.

Agreed. And I second that. An excellent and insightful film.

This is true.

No, this is an opinion.

 

[PS]

This is true.

Prove it. Oh...hehe...I forgot- you can't.

 

[Sage]

You know, just as a side-but-on-topic note, I've never understood the infatuation with death. Before 1988, I was absolutely nonexistent – if you believe the Christian calendar, that means several thousand years that I didn't exist, and if you adhere to the scientific model, that means billions of years that I didn't exist, but either way, that's a really, really long time. And guess what – all that time, I didn't care. To me, death is exactly the same thing… it's simply nonexistence, a time where I honestly won't care about anything, because I won't have the capacity to (just as I didn't before my life). In particular, I love this quote from Epicurus:

Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

That basically sums up that whole paragraph that I just babbled on about. There's simply no reason to think about death (except your will and funeral plans), and I'm not sure why anybody ever thought it was a good idea to come up with this notion of an afterlife… I'm just darn happy to be alive and functional!

 

[Ten]

You know, just as a side-but-on-topic note, I've never understood the infatuation with death. Before 1988, I was absolutely nonexistent – if you believe the Christian calendar, that means several thousand years that I didn't exist, and if you adhere to the scientific model, that means billions of years that I didn't exist, but either way, that's a really, really long time. And guess what – all that time, I didn't care. To me, death is exactly the same thing… it's simply nonexistence, a time where I honestly won't care about anything, because I won't have the capacity to (just as I didn't before my life). In particular, I love this quote from Epicurus:

That basically sums up that whole paragraph that I just babbled on about. There's simply no reason to think about death (except your will and funeral plans), and I'm not sure why anybody ever thought it was a good idea to come up with this notion of an afterlife… I'm just darn happy to be alive and functional!

Thank you for that. There are words in what you have posted that I could not find to say myself. ^^;

 

[PS]

You know, just as a side-but-on-topic note, I've never understood the infatuation with death. Before 1988, I was absolutely nonexistent – if you believe the Christian calendar, that means several thousand years that I didn't exist, and if you adhere to the scientific model, that means billions of years that I didn't exist, but either way, that's a really, really long time. And guess what – all that time, I didn't care. To me, death is exactly the same thing… it's simply nonexistence, a time where I honestly won't care about anything, because I won't have the capacity to (just as I didn't before my life). In particular, I love this quote from Epicurus:

That basically sums up that whole paragraph that I just babbled on about. There's simply no reason to think about death (except your will and funeral plans), and I'm not sure why anybody ever thought it was a good idea to come up with this notion of an afterlife… I'm just darn happy to be alive and functional!

I didn't find the previous paragraph as "babbling" at all. It was very strait to the point and concise. And you're only 16?

 

[Ten]

To add to what Sage said (and the current song posting trend), I'd like to post the song in my user title. Perhaps this will better explain my outlook.

If this is a question
Is maybe a lie?
If yes doesn't mean it
Does when lessen why?

You are held in a queue
Someone will be with you shortly
Say I'm wrong
You decide
I don't believe the words you sing sometimes

But then it's your life
Mmm hmm it's your life
But then it's your life
Mmm hmm it's your life

But you've only got one

If I just to spite you
Placate your disgrace
Will song turn to silence?
Will mask wear your face?

Are you down to be open
Show me yours and I'll show you mine
Or are you down just to be down
I don't believe the words you sing sometimes

But then it's your life
Mmm hmm it's your life
But then it's your life
Mmm hmm it's your life

But you've only got one

You've only got one. Enjoy it for what it is, and live it for yourself.

 

[PS]

Thats remarkably similar to the lyrics I posted earlier. Not to feel ashamed, and to take just have what comes, and to use what you have. I like the spite part too, Manson makes many hidden referrences for doing things just to piss somebody off (I do that sometimes too, but thats beside the point).

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You know, just as a side-but-on-topic note, I've never understood the infatuation with death. Before 1988, I was absolutely nonexistent – if you believe the Christian calendar, that means several thousand years that I didn't exist, and if you adhere to the scientific model, that means billions of years that I didn't exist, but either way, that's a really, really long time. And guess what – all that time, I didn't care. To me, death is exactly the same thing… it's simply nonexistence, a time where I honestly won't care about anything, because I won't have the capacity to (just as I didn't before my life). In particular, I love this quote from Epicurus:

That basically sums up that whole paragraph that I just babbled on about. There's simply no reason to think about death (except your will and funeral plans), and I'm not sure why anybody ever thought it was a good idea to come up with this notion of an afterlife… I'm just darn happy to be alive and functional!

That sounds pretty good, but one thing bothers me. Since I just showed up here
(with a life on earth) like everybody else having no control or choice in the matter, how can I emphatically state that I know what it will be like or what will happen when I die. I think it takes a little faith to embrace this concept too.
Well its something to think about.

 

[PS]

Yah...I'll second that, but I'm not one to believe in life after death.

 

[Sage]

I didn't find the previous paragraph as "babbling" at all. It was very straight to the point and concise. And you're only 16?

Close enough to 17, but yeah. It was babbling though, if only because my sentence structure was all screwy.

BTW, I'd like to go on another off-but-on-topic note just for a sec. Relating to the very first post of this thread, I just figured I should add in my "religious experiences", and specifically when I started questioning religion.

Anyway, my dad is an atheist and my mom a quiet Buddhist, so I never really had religion involved in my life at all. When I was about 10 or 11 though, I became interested in people's conversations about church and God, and so over the course of a few weeks I had several of my Christian friends explain Christianity to me (the basics, of course, since you're not going to get terribly in-depth analysis from a 10-year-old). So, then I decided I'd start believing in God, since everybody else apparently did. For a few weeks I prayed every night (and put my heart into it, not doing it passively), but nothing changed, so right then and there I decided it wasn't something worth believing in. And so I stopped.

A couple years later, I found one of those Bibles that people leave in hotel rooms, and I decided I'd read it a bit. After the first few pages, I got sick of how dictator-like it was written and how illogical the events were, and just put it away.

Throughout that time I was also dabbling in Buddhism, but I started to realize that other than the reincarnation aspect, it was more a philosophy than a religion, and I also realized that I already lived my life to many of the same standards (especially non-violence—I've never been in a physical fight in my life), so it wasn't really something that I needed to actively study, and so I haven't.

After that Bible incident, I've done plenty of research, and have always found that science gives a logical explanation for just about everything, and I like that it's flexible, ever-expanding, always willing to admit it's wrong and willing to correct itself. I've never had a fear of death (I've always had a fear of the experience though, since there are a number of rather painful ways to die), so I've never had any reason to even consider an afterlife.

And that is my little story of my questioning of religion. I wish it was as simply as Duke's, but as I mentioned, I didn't have access to a Bible until after I had already rejected religion, so, yeah…

[edit]:

That sounds pretty good, but one thing bothers me. Since I just showed up here
(with a life on earth) like everybody else having no control or choice in the matter, how can I emphatically state that I know what it will be like or what will happen when I die.

Why? I know what happens to people when they die – they get put in a box and slowly decompose in the ground (that includes their brain cells—their "soul"—which are specialized cells yet get decomposed just the same), or they get cremated, which is like super-fast decomposition. That's what happens to people when they die, that's what happens to animals when they die (well, the usually just decompose on the dirt or get eaten), and that's what'll happen when I die. Honestly, I'm perfectly content with fertilizing the soil.

There is perfectly good evidence of this (people decomposing), yet there is no evidence of a little spirit leaving the body, so the former takes much less faith to "believe" in than that latter.

 

[Bocha]

right now i am question my faith. i feel like christianity was shoved down my throught and i was never really taught that its o.k to question my faith, but my parents taught me to think about the meaning and lesons in the bible. right now i am looking into different religeons and right now i am thinking of becoming budist or a satanist. i am going to the library and pick up some books and do some reserch on the 2 religeons. but im worried trying to explain to my die hard christion family why i have a book on satanism. tell me if you have ever questioned your faith.

Budist, satanism? no way, man!

From my point of view all religions are the same.
Just believe in yourself.