Questioning Religion

[PS]

Are you familiar with satanism? Most of it is based around logic and reason, not a guy in the sky saying what you should and shouldn't do.

 

[Danoff]

Ok my little story about questioning faith,

I was raised loosely quaker. My parents sent me to Catholic school when I was very young, but our “church” was quaker (they don’t call it church). I wnet to Sunday school and learned about Noah and Moses and other fictional characters – but it wasn’t beaten into me very hard. Always just sort of a story never quite supposed to be something I was to take too seriously.

In school I had to skip recess to go to mass and listen to everyone speak in unison (scary) and follow orders (stand, sit, stand, kneel, sit, kneel, stand).

The quakers teach you that violence is unacceptable in any circumstance. The natural thing to do is ask if Hitler should have been killed, or if violence was warranted in the face of Hitler. A hard core quaker will tell you that there was a non-violent solution that would have worked – and they’d be totally insane. Even at a young age I realized that violence was absolutely necessary for self defense. So quakerdom was not for me.

Similarly Catholicism was not for me. Why are they drinking someone’s blood again? All the ceremony really turned me off. I figured if God existed that I should have a direct dialogue with him, I didn’t need this old bald guy to talk to my god for me. But God never talked to me, so I never talked to him. My mom made me pray and stuff but God never acted on my requests (like, I want lots of candy, and I want a longer recess, and my teacher is really mean so maker her go away).

One thing I did like about religion (and still think is pretty nifty) is this concept of immortality. Death is scary if you think about it. That your entire consciousness will disappear one day – totally gone. It’s even scarier if you think about someone you love being wiped out of existence, possibly suddenly. So the idea of immortality is wonderful. I wish I could believe in an afterlife – that would be fantastic. So as a kid I always clung to the idea that there would be a nice wonderful afterlife for me where everything was good and I would certainly be happy.

But as I got older and learned more about the way things work in reality I started to want evidence. It’s a funny thing, but as the mind matures it starts to learn how to detect fact and fiction and evidence becomes crucial. Of course the bible is wonderful evidence that religion exists. But I’ve got lots of books and some of them are quite wild with their stories. They aren’t all correct. So there must be some evidence that the bible is truth.

I have found none and so I continue to be atheist / agnostic. I couldn’t even get in line with the Quakers (and they don’t ask much), how could I possibly buy all of the obviously-made-up stuff that Christianity throws at you. It all reeks of humanity. It all sounds so contrived… “Do this and you’ll live an eternity of pain, don’t do it and you’ll live forever in a wonderful world of happiness. Which one do you want to do?” That sounds like a person to me. “Thall shalt not steal” sounds like something some guy a long time ago came up with because he wanted to encourage people to be civil (so he didn’t have to pay for as many police officers).

Evidence.

 

[Pako]

danoff,

I hear what you’re saying and can see where your coming from. There is certainly some moral truths in most religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, ect...) as common themes seem to run consistent to each other. I have more questions than answers but I still thank God every day for my family, friends, and all the blessings He's enriched my life with. When I get a chance to stand at the foot of God, I would hope that I could get my questions answered, but by then, I'm guessing they will seem a bit unnecessary while being in the presence of the all mighty creator of the universe.

 

[Famine]

So do you think God is stupid?

Do I think that a non-existant manifestation of a certain section of mankind's fears is stupid?

No, because it's non-existant. Duh!

If he doesn't exsist, who wrote the book?

Hey-hey! You're getting there!

 

[Ten]

Famine, have you read this article?

I found it a rather eye-opening read. Personal experience is where I "lost my faith", and it feels good to read that others can sympathize.

I wonder how XVII and SuperCobraJet would view if they lived a day in my shoes...

If they could feel how confused I am by people preaching spiritual acceptance at the cost of everything that makes me who I am...

The hurt of knowing that even if I did believe, I'd be unworthy of the same love and salvation they claim to have recieved...

This may seem like just a discussion on a message board to some of you, but to me, it's more of a journey into who I am, how my beliefs match up to others, and how or how not my logic and belief system is flawed.

I wish I could just ignore this thread...let it go unread from here on out. But I can't. I've gotten myself in too deep, and I have questions that I don't know how to ask. I'm still kind of hurting from things that have been said, and I can't understand why if I were to look at myself through your eyes, I'd be this spiritually tainted person, in need of immediate saving or conversion.

I'm so confused...and it really hurts. I've never cried when reading a topic on a message board before. None have ever really affected me in that large a capacity. But I can honestly say that as sure as I am typing this, there are tears rolling down my cheeks. I don't wear it on my sleeve, but deep down, I'm a very spiritual person - not in a christian sense - but in a sense that I am indeed worried about my worth as a person, if I have a soul and if there is indeed more to life than cells and time.

I have questions like, if I died, on a grand scale, does it matter? Have I done anything to leave an impact on anyone, big or small? Has anything I've said helped anyone, or made their life even a tad better?

And as I think we all worry at one point - what happens when I die? Yes. It comes up with fits of depression, and everyone thinks about it at one point or another.

You, nor anyone in the entire reaches of the internet or this earth can answer these questions for me, so don't even try.

Sometimes life is hard, you can't see over the hill and the sun is just on the other side. You're shrouded in darkness, and everything around you is frightening and confusing. You wonder if maybe your life is just a prelude to something bigger - maybe death brings the next step, and there is something beyond our comprehension that awaits us. Something grander than life. You almost want to drop everything you have and find out...

It's times like that that I'm glad I have my family and my friends. I could never leave them behind. In a sense, they keep me here. They're my reason for not making the biggest mistake I could ever make - taking my own life.

THAT is where my faith is. In my loved ones. I hope maybe now you understand what I mean when I say that the value of someone's faith has nothing to do with where they put it.

What matters is that it's there.

I need to take a breather now. I've nothing more to say.

 

[ledhed]

It all reeks of humanity.

Thats my problem . Most of reads like a guy on peyote confined to the desert with good hash wrote it.

 

[Duke]

What do you believe?

Third time around, in case you missed it the previous two times I've posted it:

There is a consciousness here that I define as "me", which receives auditory, olfactory, tactile, and visual stimuli from the world around me. That consciousness is capable of processing this information and using it to make predictions based on observed phenomena. This ability to make informed decisions from predictions based on objective reality is called 'rational thought'.

And therein resides my soul.

Are you completely satisfied with that?

Totally and completely at peace with it. No lingering doubts or yearnings for immortality or a 'higher' purpose or anything. I've got everything I need up there in my skull. It's up to me to make what I want of it.

please put it in giant big letters for everyone to see in the midst of the entangled arguments and debates what is it that exactly is preventing you all to believe in God?

Why should I believe in god? I see no evidence - zip, zero, zilch, nada, null, nothing - that proves (or even suggests) to me that a god exists. On the other hand, I am confronted daily with the existence of a non-mystic reality that can be perceived and understood objectively by functioning senses and a rational mind.

Although I didn't realize that this had become a trend, there's a great song I'd like to quote here, because it kind of sums up the way I feel:

I've got the whole human race
But you chose Jesus 'just in case'
You've got your eternity
But a few short years is enough for me...

As I have said before, logically speaking, 'absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence'. In other words, it cannot be conclusively proven that there is NO god, because that's a logical impossibility. However, if you take the step of believing god exists in the absence of proof, then there is no way to differentiate or compare what you take on faith from what other people take on faith. You say "God created Heaven and Earth in seven days," and I say "No, infidel, the Keebler Elves baked the Universe in their Cosmic Cookie Oven!" Who's to say who is right? How can we possibly relate to each other on that level, if we insist that one of us must be right? Especially not if we're both wrong and the earth is nothing but an egg in the nest of a giant sea turtle on the beach of some larger universe...

Once you throw away your only tool - rational logic - you are lost in an unknown and by definition unknowable fog of mysticism. Any light you see may or may not be real - because you've determined that no proof of reality is necessary or even desirable. You've surrendered your quest for true understanding to your need for the comfort of a bright light, even though it's not a light that illuminates any information and you have no way of knowing whether it's leading you into or out of danger.

Some of the Ten Commandments serve as a guide to a fair and equal way of relating to your fellow human beings, it's true. But others of them are intended to make sure that the holders of mystic power remain in power. Still others are just plain bizarre and really amount to justification for some people's desire to interfere with other people's business. And it's the same with nearly all organized religions.

 

[Delirious]

http://www.yfiles.com/part2.html thats an interesting website considering the chances of prophecy being fulfilled...

 

[Duke]

Absolutely nothing to do with anything! In all honesty, just skip the pseudo-science links as 'proof'. It's absolutely doomed to failure with anyone who understands real science, mathematics, probability, and logic.

 

[Danoff]

http://www.yfiles.com/part2.html thats an interesting website considering the chances of prophecy being fulfilled...

It's an easy link to pick apart but there is so much there that it isn't worth the time.

Anyone who can reasonably follow the logic of arguments - see conclusions and where they come from (and what assumptions they make) can pick this link apart on their own. Even just the first few lines are full of assumptions and unsupported conclusions.

I don't have time to refute the whole website, but if you pick a few of the arguments that you thought were particularly strong I'm sure that we can point out the flaws.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

It's an easy link to pick apart but there is so much there that it isn't worth the time.

Yes, but you've got to love the conclusion

It is easier to prove the existence and claims of Jesus Christ then it is to prove that you or I exist.

....errr no.

I'm going to throw this into the mix

According to Charles Francois Dupuis author of "Origin of Worship", the oldest religions were Sun Worshipping. He suggests that all modern religions are derived from these ancient practices. Here is the story behind the solar worship:

"The god is born about December 25th, without sexual intercourse, for the sun, entering the winter solstice, emerges in the sign of Virgo, the heavenly Virgin. His mother remains ever-virgin, since the rays of the sun, passing through the zodiacal sign, leave it intact. His infancy is begirt with dangers, because the new-born Sun is feeble in the midst of the winter's fogs and mists, which threaten to devour him; his life is one of toil and peril, culminating at the spring equinox in a final struggle with the powers of darkness. At that period the day and night are equal, and both fight for the mastery. Though the night veil the urn and he seems dead; though he has descended out of sight, below the earth, yet he rises again triumphant, and he rises in the sign of the Lamb, and is thus the Lamb of God, carrying away the darkness and death of the winter months. Henceforth he triumphs, growing ever stronger and more brilliant. He ascends into the zenith, and there he glows, on the right hand of God, himself God, the very substance of the Father, the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, upholding all things by his lifegiving power."

Sound familiar?

 

[Pako]

I wish I could express what God has done in my life. I've tried to rationalize the psychology behind faith and the benefits of practicing worship to a supreme being. It just doesn't make sense that all the benefits I've experienced with my walk in faith can be attributed to a sub conscious need or desire being fulfilled by a blind faith. I've tried life without God and I've tried life with God, and I have to confess that my quality of life is soo much better with Devine intervention in my life. To me the proof is in the pudding. There were moments in my life that I felt complete despair and detached from God during my divorce with my first wife. I had hit rock bottom, I was all alone and I was in a self destructive mode. I had lost 60 lbs of body weight bring be to a shell of 140 lbs in just a few months. I hated life and all that it stood for. In the midst of all that I felt that God was always there waiting to help, he just needed me to ask. That I did, on my knees I pleaded for deliverance from this dark place that I had found myself in. In a instant I felt the grace of God cover me with his warmth and love that I had never felt before.

I had never felt the presence of God until I had surrendered my self to him, to give him complete control of my life.

My testimony, like millions of others around the globe is proof. It is proof to me because I have experienced it. Until you have experienced it you will have no acceptable proof of God's existence.

 

[Danoff]

According to Charles Francois Dupuis author of "Origin of Worship", the oldest religions were Sun Worshipping. He suggests that all modern religions are derived from these ancient practices. Here is the story behind the solar worship:

The father, SUN, and holy ghost.

It is proof to me because I have experienced it.

What exactly did you experience and why do you think it is God?

 

[Pako]

I wish I could express what God has done in my life. I've tried to rationalize the psychology behind faith and the benefits of practicing worship to a supreme being. It just doesn't make sense that all the benefits I've experienced with my walk in faith can be attributed to a sub conscious need or desire being fulfilled by a blind faith. I've tried life without God and I've tried life with God, and I have to confess that my quality of life is soo much better with Devine intervention in my life. To me the proof is in the pudding. There were moments in my life that I felt complete despair and detached from God during my divorce with my first wife. I had hit rock bottom, I was all alone and I was in a self destructive mode. I had lost 60 lbs of body weight bring be to a shell of 140 lbs in just a few months. I hated life and all that it stood for. In the midst of all that I felt that God was always there waiting to help, he just needed me to ask. That I did, on my knees I pleaded for deliverance from this dark place that I had found myself in. In a instant I felt the grace of God cover me with his warmth and love that I had never felt before.

I had never felt the presence of God until I had surrendered my self to him, to give him complete control of my life.

My testimony, like millions of others around the globe is proof. It is proof to me because I have experienced it. Until you have experienced it you will have no acceptable proof of God's existence.

It was like a flip of a light switch. I knew that everything was going to be alright and that God was there for me, and that I was never alone, that he was always there.

 

[Anderton Prime]

That's awesome, Pako. for me, my girlfriend helped me a lot in attaining that goal. I'm also glad you don't feel the need to push Christianity on every other human being you come into contact with...

 

[Pako]

There's only a select few that I push really hard on. J/K

I'm just living my life and trying to be the kind of person that God wants me to be. If in the process someone asks why I'm happy all the time, or why certain things that should bother me don't, or just notice something is different about me and want to know why, I'll be more than happy to share my experience and hope with them.

 

[Bocha]

Are you familiar with satanism? Most of it is based around logic and reason, not a guy in the sky saying what you should and shouldn't do.

Well, i suppose that it does not change much if the words instead of coming from the sky come from "hell".

 

[K_Speed]

For me there is not really a God.

I dont need to believe in someone who I havnt seen, and some freaks in the centuries before our lives made up.

To sum it up. We live in a place called "Space". Its black, full with stars and galaxies. But really, what is it? What is anything? We live on a planet, in a galaxie, in Space. But the question is. Where is space? Where does it come from? Why is it there? Why is anthing really "there". So why believe in God? Why not believe in God?

I just live, go to school, study, hang with friends, party, drink...etc. etc. I love to get the whole family together and eat dinner together. Talk, chit chat. Those are my gods. My friends family favorite bands, actors....those are the people that are actually there, people that inspire you and you inspire them.

God is just supposed to be there. He doesnt help you, he doesnt hug you when you feel bad, he doesnt live with you. Who is "he" anyways.

So, for me the people around me are important. The people on this earth, the people that make this earth a better place and travel the unknown space.

Scienetology, Christianity, Islam. Its all the same. Some are harsher religions.....some not. If I see those people on tv listening to a guy reading some **** out of a book and all the people are yelling. I always wonder, why do they go there?

Religion, one of the biggest factors why war even exists. Have you ever though about the earth not having any religion at all? I think wed concentrate on the planets health, energy consumption etc. more than in some guy we have never seen.

So God, where were you when I was in the hospital? Where were you for anyone at all? Have you ever seen what is going on here? Why dont you help? Dont you see whats happening on this earth? Deaths, disease, war, sexual herrasment etc etc. If youre the God, why the **** dont you do something god damnit! these people believe in you, for what reason what so ever

Should I believe in him because my friend survived a plane crash? Should I believe in him because I have a family? Should the people that dont have food, water family or anthing at all believe in you?


damn idiot...look what youve done! all these people in you, and fight each other about who is right and who is wrong! And theres supposed to be another god called allah. is he youre brother? they say hes better..and you never existed

Yo God? god? where are ya dude?




Religion....wtf 👎

 

[Anderton Prime]

You've obviously not read through the entire thread...the issue of why the world is such a crappy place has been asked and addressed earlier.

How pretentious and immature of you to ask if Allah is God's brother. Appalling.

 

[K_Speed]

How pretentious and immature of you to ask if Allah is God's brother. Appalling.

well it could be true no?

 

[Danoff]

Dont you see whats happening on this earth? Deaths, disease, war, sexual herrasment etc etc.

I love it.

Death... (ok that's bad)

Disease (also bad)

War (that's pretty bad)
.
.
.
.
Sexual Harassment (hmmm... not really in the same league)

 

[Anderton Prime]

Ha ha ha, "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

Death, Disease, War, and dog poop in the streets...

 

[K_Speed]

Does it have to be?

I love it.

This guy always has something to moan about

 

[Anderton Prime]

We're just poking fun, since you thought it was appropriate to do the same.

Also, please address the first part of my post, where I said I thought you hadn't read the rest of the thread. You absolutely CANNOT come into a heated debate like the one in this thread and read a few posts and then make your reply. You're bound to piss off more than a few people, and we're trying to have an educated discussion here. Your post is threatening to bring the level of conversation right back down again, that's all.

 

[K_Speed]

We're just poking fun, since you thought it was appropriate to do the same.

Also, please address the first part of my post, where I said I thought you hadn't read the rest of the thread. You absolutely CANNOT come into a heated debate like the one in this thread and read a few posts and then make your reply. You're bound to piss off more than a few people, and we're trying to have an educated discussion here. Your post is threatening to bring the level of conversation right back down again, that's all.

I didnt read through all of it, true. I justed let out my oppinion. And thats what this part of the forum is about, no?

 

[Anderton Prime]

Normally, that would be fine. But religion is the MOST heated topic on this site, next to politics. When I first started out at GTP I wandered into a few political debate forums and didn't bother to read everything through before posting my two cents. All I attracted was the ire of other, more distinguished members, and that's what will happen to you too.

 

[Duke]

Heh, he's well-versed at attracting the ire of other members, distinguished or not.

In any case, it's never a wise idea to simply vent an uninformed opinion into an established discussion. You should hear what others are saying before you just blast in. You may have thought it out but it's important to know how it fits into what's already been saud before you add your two bits.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I didnt read through all of it, true. I justed let out my oppinion. And thats what this part of the forum is about, no?

Thats been my impression. Far as I'm concerned you can jump in and start swinging any time you like

 

[PS]

Well, i suppose that it does not change much if the words instead of coming from the sky come from "hell".

Let's just clear something up before I go on- I'm not a Satanist, nor will I ever be. If I don't believe in god, I sure as hell don't believe in Satan.

Now, who's to say it wouldn't have changed? Unlike the Holy Bible, the Unholy Bible wasn't written 2000 years ago. Instead, the Unholy Bible was written in 1966 (the best year ever...but for different reasons), by Anton LaVey. Anton LaVey was (I think) a philosophy and english professor. After hosting some rather highprofile and secret parties, and then forming clubs, he created the Unholy Bible. It was a more logical approach at life, as well, the Bible is somewhat outdated. The Satanic or "Unholy" Bible was written as a guideline for those to live, not a book for those to worship a fictitious being and render themselves his slaves. the Satanic bible is a little harsh ("If one annoys you, tell him to cease and desist. If he does not stop, destroy him."), but it pretty much sums up how people think. And it's actually quite popular too, although very controversial mainly because of the name. Many of the commandments are sins (indulgence/lust as opposed to abstinence), but are basically what everyone does today anyway. I just see it as this, the person(s) who supposedly wrote the bible 2000 years ago are dead now. They can not change it and revise the commandments, and much of it (IMO) was just created as a way to shut little kids up and get them to grow up half decent and not become Jeffrey Dalmers. The Unholy Bible on the other hand, was created by a guy who actually exists, and lived tell the story about it. It is based mostly around human inhibitions and other instincts that dictate how a relatively self-aware, and relatively morally correct person would act. If any of this seems like it doesn't make sense, I'll be more than happy to clarify, as I was talking on the phone while I wrote it and am too lazy too make any substantial edits.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Ahh, finally, the thread is slowing down. Soon it will die. I wonder if it will go to dead thread heaven or hell? Or anywhere for that matter?