Race Collision Algorithm GT7

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Curious what everyone thinks of this or if this has ever been thought of.

Why doesn't GT7 automatically activate ghost when a collision happens ahead while you're going 20+ mph faster?

It happens constantly, especially, in a room with bumper car drivers. It's almost as if you have to concede spots to avoid collisions.

Any one have an idea or thoughts on this?

 

[jrbabbitt]

Curious what everyone thinks of this or if this has ever been thought of.

Why doesn't GT7 automatically activate ghost when a collision happens ahead while you're going 20+ mph faster?

It happens constantly, especially, in a room with bumper car drivers. It's almost as if you have to concede spots to avoid collisions.

Any one have an idea or thoughts on this?

Yes, if we all know that cars WILL ghost then we would all continue driving our line like there is no car in front of us to hit us making the whole concept of ghosting unfair...

 

[Sir Crashalot]

Any one have an idea or thoughts on this?

Tbh I have no idea what you're talking about. Care to explain?

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Lengthy explanation but I'll shorten it... you should be aware when coming out the pits the car goes into ghost mode for a few seconds. I'm asking... when cars in an accident, SPIN OUT, and get back on track in front of other racesrs... why doesn't the game initiate ghost?

Sometimes there's no way thru and you end up hitting those slower wrecked cars. If you don't stop in time, you'll wreck and/or get penalized. Better?

Yes, if we all know that cars WILL ghost then we would all continue driving our line like there is no car in front of us to hit us making the whole concept of ghosting unfair...

Well that's not entirely true. When it's on purpose right in front of you the cars in the accident cause the approaching racers to get involved. Causing more wrecks to the clean drivers and penalties. If cars are going WAAAAYYYY slower... 20+ mph slower... not 5 or 6 but 20+ slower, why not initiate ghost so the trailing racers can pass thru cleanly?

 

[Sir Crashalot]

Lengthy explanation but I'll shorten it... you should be aware when coming out the pits the car goes into ghost mode for a few seconds. I'm asking... when cars in an accident, SPIN OUT, and get back on track in front of other racesrs... why doesn't the game initiate ghost?

Sometimes there's no way thru and you end up hitting those slower wrecked cars. If you don't stop in time, you'll wreck and/or get penalized. Better?

I think I get what you mean now. No collision, literally driving through the other cars, correct? I think I've seen this in other games. Nah, not my cup of tea, sorry. I'm all for realism and you just can't drive through other cars IRL.

 

[Famine]

Why doesn't GT7 automatically activate ghost when a collision happens ahead while you're going 20+ mph faster?

Largely because it would turn pretty much all racing into a joke where people hotlap rather than racing each other. Crashes and incidents are part of racing:



It's also an entirely arbitrary number that you've chosen.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Largely because it would turn pretty much all racing into a joke where people hotlap rather than racing each other. Crashes and incidents are part of racing:



It's also an entirely arbitrary number that

I'm well aware crashes are going to happen. And it's certainly not arbitrary. It's a very distinguishable difference that would warrant ghost. The objective is to reduce deliberate accidents affecting trailing racers with clean lines. It doesn't necessarily mean it will result in hot laps. I'm a bit surprised how reluctant this group is to the idea. It's simulated racing, it's not actual racing.

 

[Famine]

And it's certainly not arbitrary. It's a very distinguishable difference that would warrant ghost.

Why is +19mph not enough? Why not 30km/h (18.6mph)?

That's why it's arbitrary; it's a number you've selected based on what feels right (and is nice and round, in your preferred measuring system).

Ghosting is antithetical to racing.

 

[Mudda Chod]

I'm a bit surprised how reluctant this group is to the idea. It's simulated racing, it's not actual racing.

Just to be clear, this has been discussed many times before, and yes "reluctant" is a reasonable description, because...

As mentioned already, some players are totally into realism, and want a real world experience. You say "it's simulated racing" but what is the purpose of simulating a real world activity if you break the rules of physics?

Now, to balance the discussion... There are also many players (perhaps not represented euqually on this forum) who just want to play a GAME. In this case, your ghosting suggestion is entirely reasonable. So much so that you will notice that in the Daily A races (which typically feature slower cars and no impact on your DR/SR) the ghosting is strong, and often avoids the catastrophic escalation of crashes... Conversely in World Final events, ghosting is usually turned off completely.

Essentially it comes down to how YOU want to play... Is it a game, or a sim? Are you a "professional sim racer" (cough cough) or a car enthusiast who prefers to spend a few hundred dollars on a PlayStation rather than many thousands on a real world racing car? Are you racing in VR and want full realism, or are you happy with a controller and flat screen TV?

Depending how a person answers the above questions, will probably correlate with their opinion on ghosting.

Regarding the "algorithm" itself, have you considered the difficulty in allowing for internet lag? There are times when cars glitch into new locations, effectively at infinite speed. An accurate calculation of momentum might be more difficult than you think, if you consider the internet challenges.

 

[Tommy_D]

I would prefer no ghosting but initiate heavy damage to cars so they need to pit to fix their car. It would force drivers to slow down, to respect racing lines, to respect braking zones, to stop dive bombing and stop revenge racing. If your car is going to experience heavy damage due to a collision I would think most people would do their very best to not have contact with each other.

 

[kiseca]

I would prefer no ghosting but initiate heavy damage to cars so they need to pit to fix their car. It would force drivers to slow down, to respect racing lines, to respect braking zones, to stop dive bombing and stop revenge racing. If your car is going to experience heavy damage due to a collision I would think most people would do their very best to not have contact with each other.

Agreed. It's already not realistic. Career or life ending crashes result in drivers rejoining the race having lost 20 seconds, or at worst being fit and ready for the next heat. Frankly, I wouldn't want a realistic experience of a multicar pileup on the main straight anyway.

I think the ghosting of all cars involved in the initial collision so that those arriving on the scene after the fact aren't also taken out is a good idea, as long as it's an option that can be turned off by those who don't want it. It's a game. More choices to suit more players isn't a bad thing.

I also think all those suggesting drivers wil be hotlapping may have missed the point. If I understand the OP correctly you'd still crash into another car if you tried to drive through it, unless that other car was already busy playing out it's own crash and was spinning across the track in front of you or something.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Just to be clear, this has been discussed many times before, and yes "reluctant" is a reasonable description, because...

As mentioned already, some players are totally into realism, and want a real world experience. You say "it's simulated racing" but what is the purpose of simulating a real world activity if you break the rules of physics?

Now, to balance the discussion... There are also many players (perhaps not represented euqually on this forum) who just want to play a GAME. In this case, your ghosting suggestion is entirely reasonable. So much so that you will notice that in the Daily A races (which typically feature slower cars and no impact on your DR/SR) the ghosting is strong, and often avoids the catastrophic escalation of crashes... Conversely in World Final events, ghosting is usually turned off completely.

Essentially it comes down to how YOU want to play... Is it a game, or a sim? Are you a "professional sim racer" (cough cough) or a car enthusiast who prefers to spend a few hundred dollars on a PlayStation rather than many thousands on a real world racing car? Are you racing in VR and want full realism, or are you happy with a controller and flat screen TV?

Depending how a person answers the above questions, will probably correlate with their opinion on ghosting.

Regarding the "algorithm" itself, have you considered the difficulty in allowing for internet lag? There are times when cars glitch into new locations, effectively at infinite speed. An accurate calculation of momentum might be more difficult than you think, if you consider the internet challenges.

You have a valid and interesting points, I wont argue. But the "real" is very much uncontrolled chaos. We depend on AI system to regulate malicious driving. But I simply think it's inadequate to fully experience "real" more frequently. And enjoy it simultaneously. Personally, I think it could use improvement

I would prefer no ghosting but initiate heavy damage to cars so they need to pit to fix their car. It would force drivers to slow down, to respect racing lines, to respect braking zones, to stop dive bombing and stop revenge racing. If your car is going to experience heavy damage due to a collision I would think most people would do their very best to not have contact with each other.

That's not a terrible concept, but what happens when malicious drivers intentionally cause wrecks. Does that mean I have to pit as a result? Some intentional accident are not suddenly avoidable. I know that sounds like that's what racing is, but I'm sure you've experienced unavoidable incidents that could have been avoided had someone not intentionally wrecked the race.

I think I get what you mean now. No collision, literally driving through the other cars, correct? I think I've seen this in other games. Nah, not my cup of tea, sorry. I'm all for realism and you just can't drive through other cars IRL.

Not entirely no collisions. Just those that occur so suddenly from accidental or intentional, so as you approach from behind you're not involved in that incident. If that makes more sense

Agreed. It's already not realistic. Career or life ending crashes result in drivers rejoining the race having lost 20 seconds, or at worst being fit and ready for the next heat. Frankly, I wouldn't want a realistic experience of a multicar pileup on the main straight anyway.

I think the ghosting of all cars involved in the initial collision so that those arriving on the scene after the fact aren't also taken out is a good idea, as long as it's an option that can be turned off by those who don't want it. It's a game. More choices to suit more players isn't a bad thing.

I also think all those suggesting drivers wil be hotlapping may have missed the point. If I understand the OP correctly you'd still crash into another car if you tried to drive through it, unless that other car was already busy playing out it's own crash and was spinning across the track in front of you or something.

Kiseca, that's precisely what I meant. At least I know someone understood where I was going with it lol

Why is +19mph not enough? Why not 30km/h (18.6mph)?

That's why it's arbitrary; it's a number you've selected based on what feels right (and is nice and round, in your preferred measuring system).

Ghosting is antithetical to racing.

Pit speed is arbitrary, but it's selected as an appropriate safe speed. It's not 47 or 53. It's a divisible number deemed appropriate. I mathematically selected 20 as it will exceed for most vehicles ability to gain track speed within an alloted time and distance. This is where the algorithm would come in and calculate the distance from Object A to Object B (the cars) and determine whether the approaching car is exceeding 20mph will make contact to Object B before getting up to track speed in time.

 

[Famine]

Pit speed is arbitrary

For the most part, yes.

However, the reason that the pitlane speed is chosen in the real world is to do with time and energy: it increases the time that the unprotected people in the pitlane have to see and react to vehicles, as well as giving drivers more time to decelerate safely and to see and react to vehicles emerging from pit boxes, and reduces the amount of energy in case of any incident to levels that are survivable for anyone caught up in one.

There is little reason the limit couldn't be 1km/h, 2km/h, 5km/h or any other number less, but the reason for it being approximately where it is comes down to moving observation and reaction times into a normal human window and reducing energy of incidents.

As with so many other regulations being written with blood, motorsport generally had no pit lane speed limit until a fatal accident in the 1993 Spanish Grand Prix (for FIM Road Racing) when rider Nobuyuki Wakai hit a spectator who was wandering in the pit lane unauthorised. F1 didn't have an in-race speed limit until the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix - more infamous for other incidents - after Michele Alboreto's Minardi shed a rear wheel exiting the pits and it hit four mechanics causing serious injuries.

Turns out that 80km/h loose wheels hurt less and are easier to see and avoid than 180km/h loose wheels.

I mathematically selected 20 as it will exceed for most vehicles ability to gain track speed within an alloted time and distance. This is where the algorithm would come in and calculate the distance from Object A to Object B (the cars) and determine whether the approaching car is exceeding 20mph will make contact to Object B before getting up to track speed in time.

Two cars on the same piece of track can easily exceed a 20mph differential, depending on the type of car. Certainly a GT3 car braking half a second later than the car in front will do so, and that wrecks any possibility of defensive driving as the car behind you can simply brake half a second later and ghost right through you.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

For the most part, yes.

However, the reason that the pitlane speed is chosen in the real world is to do with time and energy: it increases the time that the unprotected people in the pitlane have to see and react to vehicles, as well as giving drivers more time to decelerate safely and to see and react to vehicles emerging from pit boxes, and reduces the amount of energy in case of any incident to levels that are survivable for anyone caught up in one.

There is little reason the limit couldn't be 1km/h, 2km/h, 5km/h or any other number less, but the reason for it being approximately where it is comes down to moving observation and reaction times into a normal human window and reducing energy of incidents.

As with so many other regulations being written with blood, motorsport generally had no pit lane speed limit until a fatal accident in the 1993 Spanish Grand Prix (for FIM Road Racing) when rider Nobuyuki Wakai hit a spectator who was wandering in the pit lane unauthorised. F1 didn't have an in-race speed limit until the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix - more infamous for other incidents - after Michele Alboreto's Minardi shed a rear wheel exiting the pits and it hit four mechanics causing serious injuries.

Turns out that 80km/h lose wheels hurt less and are easier to see and avoid than 180km/h lose wheels.

Two cars on the same piece of track can easily exceed a 20mph differential, depending on the type of car. Certainly a GT3 car braking half a second later than the car in front will do so, and that wrecks any possibility of defensive driving as the car behind you can simply brake half a second later and ghost right through you.

I appreciate the conversation, great discussion, but we're missing the bigger picture here. It's not entirely a level playing field as far as driver experience and driver intent. Usually online races are generally equal configurations and ratios. Yes, I agree with the assessment of pitlane speed. However, when there's equal classes on the track you're generally not going to experience speed differences of 20+mph, unless: accidents, spin outs, or just a horrendous driver. So what can the game do to facilitate those deliberate and sudden changes of pace where brake is nearly impractical and without causing a clean driver to suffer consequences?

Many times I've tried avoiding this incidents under heavy braking and would get penalized heavily plus damage. Not going to be a perfect system, but I think it could use improvement.

 

[Tommy_D]

That's not a terrible concept, but what happens when malicious drivers intentionally cause wrecks. Does that mean I have to pit as a result? Some intentional accident are not suddenly avoidable. I know that sounds like that's what racing is, but I'm sure you've experienced unavoidable incidents that could have been avoided had someone not intentionally wrecked the race.

But that’s racing. There are countless examples of real races where an accident between 2 cars can take out another 3 or 4, or a whole field, because it happened in front of them. At least with my concept to race isn’t over for you. You would have to pit and get your car fixed. Maybe a safety car comes out for 2 minutes so all cars have a chance to get around the track and pit. Hey, the safety cars could actually have a use in the game!

This, of course, wouldn’t have to happen every time an accident occurs. If just two guys/girls get in to an accident with each other but the race is otherwise unaffected, bring out the yellow flags until they get back on track. Keep penalties for passing under yellow on.

The objective would be to make crashing and hitting each other something you never want to do. Increase the safety rating penalty so unsafe drivers get booted to a lower league.

The lower leagues could have ghosting instead of the heavy damage so it’s not so impossible to move up in your driver rating when it’s a demolition derby in the C/D/E tiers.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

But that’s racing. There are countless examples of real races where an accident between 2 cars can take out another 3 or 4, or a whole field, because it happened in front of them. At least with my concept to race isn’t over for you. You would have to pit and get your car fixed. Maybe a safety car comes out for 2 minutes so all cars have a chance to get around the track and pit. Hey, the safety cars could actually have a use in the game!

This, of course, wouldn’t have to happen every time an accident occurs. If just two guys/girls get in to an accident with each other but the race is otherwise unaffected, bring out the yellow flags until they get back on track. Keep penalties for passing under yellow on.

The objective would be to make crashing and hitting each other something you never want to do. Increase the safety rating penalty so unsafe drivers get booted to a lower league.

The lower leagues could have ghosting instead of the heavy damage so it’s not so impossible to move up in your driver rating when it’s a demolition derby in the C/D/E tiers.

I think we agree on the penalties and finding ways to facilitate lowering accidents. However, this is still simulated racing for recreational entertainment so I don't believe safety cars are practical.

There is Do Not Pass yellow flags, but even when avoiding collisions you can still be penalized in game.

The idea for lower leagues is a great idea, but I see high experienced races still have deliberate wrecks happen. I'm curious how the software can improve so it doesn't penalize drivers for accidental collisions on drivers not originally involved. More so directed at intentional accidents. That's my intent to this discussion for ghost.

Cheers to the ideas and discussion

 

[kiseca]

I'd think it would be possible for the software to detect with a useful degree of accuracy when a player is deliberately trying to crash into another player, and then ghost them when the predicted collision becomes inevitable... thereafter applying some kind of penalty to them to discourage players from developing race winning ghosting opportunities.

There are some obvious clues, like steering towards another car instead of on the racing line, missing a braking point by miles, straightlining and cutting chicanes when there's a car on the other side, going the wrong way around the track, parking in a run-off area and then suddenly accelerating when another car comes into view...

Have a system that measures all that and then when it becomes clear that a contact predicted by the clues is definitely about to happen, ghost the car and penalize it. won't catch all of them but could probably reduce the number of victims by a worthwhile amount.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Bottom line is still that if we know cars will be ghosted, we will abuse this concept.

 

[TumeK5]

Bottom line is still that if we know cars will be ghosted, we will abuse this concept.

People already abuse the faulty penalty system, sooo...yeah, I can see that happening.

 

[Tommy_D]

I think we agree on the penalties and finding ways to facilitate lowering accidents. However, this is still simulated racing for recreational entertainment so I don't believe safety cars are practical.

Yeah, the idea is that this still is a game, but I would think that the top tier drivers would appreciate an additional sense or realism in their game play. I know a 2 minute delay in a race may be an inconvenience, but if it adds a sense of realism and it helps to reduce collisions with other drivers I would think that is what the top drivers would want.

There is Do Not Pass yellow flags, but even when avoiding collisions you can still be penalized in game.

Are there no pass on yellows in sport mode? Are there even yellow flags in sport mode? I don’t recall there being any when I used to play that side of the game.

The idea for lower leagues is a great idea, but I see high experienced races still have deliberate wrecks happen. I'm curious how the software can improve so it doesn't penalize drivers for accidental collisions on drivers not originally involved. More so directed at intentional accidents. That's my intent to this discussion for ghost.

Cheers to the ideas and discussion

I think the ghosting is still a good thing for the lower tiers. Those races can have really experienced drivers and some that are really terrible. Some that are really fast but their safety rating is a C. So ghosting makes sense so the people who are trying to get better/faster aren’t stuck in a battlefield that won’t let them progress. Plus, having the incentive to move up to a different level of racing, not just in lap time but also in experience, is something I would think a lot of people would want. I’m not a good enough driver to get above a C level but knowing that if I move up to B that I would be put in to this new class of race style (heavy damage, no ghosting, safety laps for major collisions) could be incentive to go get better/faster because it creates a whole new style of racing.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Bottom line is still that if we know cars will be ghosted, we will abuse this concept.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also do not think we are envisioning this in the same way I intended.

People already abuse the faulty penalty system, sooo...yeah, I can see that happening.

Well if it's faulty than it's not abuse. If it were more aligned with "real" racing and the programming was more accurate, I doubt the abuse would occur as often. Which was really what my point this was. Improvement

 

[TumeK5]

Well if it's faulty than it's not abuse.

So you truly think, ethically speaking, that the name of the game is to ram others?

Yet you speak of ghosting...

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

So you truly think, ethically speaking, that the name of the game is to ram others?

Yet you speak of ghosting...

Ethically, no, I don't think that's necessarily the case. What I'm talking about is racing turning into a malicious grudge match ahead of you... key word, malicious... and suddenly you're involved. Ghost is useful. I'm not saying all day every time, it'll take away from the experience but it can be useful. Created a very specific scenario which is an area that could use improvement. I do think it happens frequently enough where better controls are needed to keep the majority of racers not only cleaner, but allows the majority to maintain clean lapping. It's human nature in racing even for good drivers to be tempted to push the limits and be deliberate at times.

 

[kiseca]

Bottom line is still that if we know cars will be ghosted, we will abuse this concept.

Yes, but abuse it how? The same way that the system gets abused now, or in a way that's not perfect but not as bad? Improvement can happen without perfection being reached, but only if change is attempted.

Bottom line is drivers intentionally causing wrecks are spoiling online racing for drivers who are victims or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Can it be reduced? I don't know, but I do know that If nothing is changed, nothing will change.

whether ghosting a car to reduce the collateral damage would help or not, I don't know. It would definitely change something, though.

On the other hand if you're happy with the status quo then from your point of view then change would likely be unwelcome.

 

[Def-Infinity]

So you truly think, ethically speaking, that the name of the game is to ram others?

Yet you speak of ghosting...

I think that, from a game design perspective, anything that is not enforced by the mechanics of the game sends the message that it is considered fair*. The mechanics define how the player is able to interact with the game and should be the clearest indication of the boundaries of the rules. Doubly so if TOS and other policies are nigh unenforceable by developers.
*assuming it does not breach any other ethical considerations

Back to the current discussion, which leaves a lot of questions in implementation...

• Where during the corner or track would this enhanced ghosting be implemented?
• Will the ghosting be distance + speed based? Relative/Gap?
  • If neither, how will you predict an impact/incident?
• Will this be active per individual player, based on individual DR level?
  • If not, how will you determine the DR level of the room? Max/Min Ranking? Median?
  • If not determined by individual or group DR, is it universally applied to all skill levels? Is it determined by SR instead?
• For which DR or SR ranks will this be active?
• Are there any punishments for activating it? Does it affect the SR of the offending driver?
  • If it does not affect their SR and strength of ghosting is handled by DR/SR, how will this affect higher DR/SR lobbies?
    • If so, how will you mitigate dirty driving in higher DR/SR lobbies?

Off of the top of my head....

I don't think getting rid of the effects of bad dirty driver behavior does much long-term, personally, and actively conflicts with the purpose of the SR system, which is to rank people based on relative cleanliness based on contact. You would just end up with more dirty drivers in [Insert DR Rank]-S.

 

[jrbabbitt]

If it were more aligned with "real" racing and the programming was more accurate,

Real racing, like Le Mans? where you have real damage and have to go pit to fix? Yes, I would go for that.

 

[SLicK_LeThaL]

Real racing, like Le Mans? where you have real damage and have to go pit to fix? Yes, I would go for that.

Well if that's your definition than so be it, but I think you've gone far outside the point of the idea. It was meant to improve on an area of weakness in my opinion, not redesign the entire function through pitting. Which is completely opposite of me.

I think that, from a game design perspective, anything that is not enforced by the mechanics of the game sends the message that it is considered fair*. The mechanics define how the player is able to interact with the game and should be the clearest indication of the boundaries of the rules. Doubly so if TOS and other policies are nigh unenforceable by developers.
*assuming it does not breach any other ethical considerations

Back to the current discussion, which leaves a lot of questions in implementation...

• Where during the corner or track would this enhanced ghosting be implemented?
• Will the ghosting be distance + speed based? Relative/Gap?
  • If neither, how will you predict an impact/incident?
• Will this be active per individual player, based on individual DR level?
  • If not, how will you determine the DR level of the room? Max/Min Ranking? Median?
  • If not determined by individual or group DR, is it universally applied to all skill levels? Is it determined by SR instead?
• For which DR or SR ranks will this be active?
• Are there any punishments for activating it? Does it affect the SR of the offending driver?
  • If it does not affect their SR and strength of ghosting is handled by DR/SR, how will this affect higher DR/SR lobbies?
    • If so, how will you mitigate dirty driving in higher DR/SR lobbies?

Off of the top of my head....

I don't think getting rid of the effects of bad dirty driver behavior does much long-term, personally, and actively conflicts with the purpose of the SR system, which is to rank people based on relative cleanliness based on contact. You would just end up with more dirty drivers in [Insert DR Rank]-S.

Here's a thought for you.

I think implementation is a fairly simple mathematical code. You nearly nailed it in the beginning, it's distance divided by speed which will give you to react.

1000 ft / 100 mph = 10 secs. to react.

Now the lower the reaction number the harder to react. The program code could easily to do this.

If you were trailing at a closer distance at the same rate of speed, and suddenly two drivers in front decide to get too foolish you could potentially get involved over inappropriate driving. Let's say they hit the wall or spin out, deceleration could be so sudden and drastic their speed is nearly half within fractions of a second or two. Should the clean trailing driver suffer the consequence of being involved or in some cases even be penalized for bumping those rough drivers due to that deliberate accident?

 

[Meythia]

Can it be reduced? I don't know, but I do know that If nothing is changed, nothing will change.

Too many ideas required to make rammers change their gameplay.

Game detects "player intents to ram" -> rammer will be ghosted (not victim), so all others can still race -> rammer will not have his braking effect of ramming, fly out of track limits, recieve a high time penalty and a downgrade to his safety rating -> rammer will never win a race and not having the joy of ruining for others -> at the lowest safety rating (lower than the starting point to such a degree you need intention to get there) there will only be rammers among themselves, and the condition for climbing is having a set number of races in which there is zero intent or ramming others detected.

Does it work? Maybe?