Racism - Ignored?

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No, no, I'm not saying she should be censored. I'm giving an example, much like the research article in my previous post calling whiteness a a "malignant, parasitic-like condition" about the kinds of outcomes that I believe arise out of the views currently propogated about race. Frequently, it seems to be that whiteness = bad, anything else = good. This doesn't mean that better opportunities or privilege exists in certain cases for white people however.
No what you claimed was those views are a direct result of CRT, rather than a result of hundreds of years of systemic racism.

Oh and your quote mining and lack of context on the first paper leads me to believe you went for an edit of the abstract and didnt bother finding and reading the full paper. Much like the rest of the right, who were so busy being outraged they targeted the wrong Donald Moss in online hit pieces.

I simply added in the irony of your past positions in regard to censorship and how in this case you ignored that in favour of a poorly considered attempt to blame CRT.

Particularly given that Conservatives and the right openly champion those who make inflammatory statements, but only as long as they are white. They moment its done by non-Whites (or heaven help us a women as well), then it gets shouted down a dangerous and an example of reverse racism and the reason why racism isn't real, CRT is dangerous, etc.

Yet apparently systemic racism isn't real, despite this rather clear example of exactly that.
 
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Amazing, but not at all surprising at all.
Not even a little bit. Honestly, I kind of resent that it's almost a foregone conclusion. That's just where we are.

I was a little surprised by how easily I found it, though. It likely comes down to my method of searching, and indeed the query itself ("wrong don moss"), but it was fast.
 
At first I thought it might be a deliberate use of this guy's name but he seems genuine, if not particularly academically credible.
What stuns me is that by citing pieces such as that modern conservatives think they have hit upon some new weapon against CRT, a silver bullet with which to destroy it. Yet the idea of whiteness as a toxic issue is far from new.

"America became white—the people who, as they claim, "settled" the country became white—because of the necessity of denying the Black presence, and justifying the Black subjugation. No community can be based on such a principle—or, in other words, no community can be established on so genocidal a lie. White men—from Norway, for example, where they were Norwegians—became white: by slaughtering the cattle, poisoning the wells, torching the houses, massacring Native Americans, raping Black women. This moral erosion has made it quite impossible for those who think of themselves as white in this country to have any moral authority at all—privately, or publicly."

That's from 1984 and written by the author and moral essayist James Baldwin, who formed his thoughts from experience and long before the advent of CRT in the 70's.

or we have

"In any case, white people, who had robbed black people of their liberty and who profited by this theft every hour that they lived, had no moral ground on which to stand. They had the judges, the juries, the shotguns, the law—in a word, power. But it was a criminal power, to be feared but not respected, and to be outwitted in any way whatever. And those virtues preached but not practiced by the white world were merely another means of holding Negroes in subjection."

Baldwin from 1962, just in case of any doubt that it's systemic racism that creates this view rather that CRT.
 
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Baldwin from 1962,
About five years prior to the United States Supreme Court deeming laws that prohibit interracial marriages to be unconstitutional per the Fourteenth Amendment. The unanimous (9-0) decision in Loving v. Virginia was actually delivered 54 years ago yesterday.
 
I however have my doubts that it would significantly change those further to the right.

I think it's almost self-evident that even if it didn't work as well as you hoped, it would work better.

Why should the explication and discussion around centuries of abuse be soft soaped to make those who have benefitted from it feel better about how it is explained

Because it's wrong. Not only is it the wrong fight, not only is it hard to convince people of, not only is it a negative message instead of a positive message, it's not even a correct message.

Just leaving this here in case it gets needed.
 
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No what you claimed was those views are a direct result of CRT, rather than a result of hundreds of years of systemic racism.

Oh and your quote mining and lack of context on the first paper leads me to believe you went for an edit of the abstract and didnt bother finding and reading the full paper. Much like the rest of the right, who were so busy being outraged they targeted the wrong Donald Moss in online hit pieces.
It's a long paper (17 pages) and there's a fair bit of psychology theory in it that I'll admit I'm not familiar with since I only studied Psychology at AS Level and Psychiatry at Undergraduate level but I think I get the gist. Basically Whiteness (his capitalisation to distinguish it from the word "whiteness" describing the colour of skin) is a condition that can affect mainly white people and is linked to many negative thoughts and actions. I could discuss it further but first I'd have to finish it.

Scaff
I simply added in the irony of your past positions in regard to censorship and how in this case you ignored that in favour of a poorly considered attempt to blame CRT.
Censorship is totally different as I'm disagreeing with her views, not on whether the university should host her so the irony is lost on me. I don't know how it's a "poorly considered attempt" as it seems to share the hallmarks with CRT unless you find Khilanani's lecture nothing to do with CRT. I guess this is a result of the difference on how it is defined with more liberal people having a very rigid view and conservatives holding a looser interpretation.

Scaff
Particularly given that Conservatives and the right openly champion those who make inflammatory statements, but only as long as they are white. They moment its done by non-Whites (or heaven help us a women as well), then it gets shouted down a dangerous and an example of reverse racism and the reason why racism isn't real, CRT is dangerous, etc.
Have you heard of Candace Owens.

They support their own and shout down their opponents, much like most people on Earth.

What?

I'm white. I'm not a victim.
I'm not saying you're a victim, I'm saying that "whiteness" is linked to pejorative opinions and that it's more socially acceptable to be racist against white people, even if it's "just a joke".

When talking about white people being hurtful to POCs it's because of Whiteness. If a they help a POC in some way they're masking their racism with White Goodness (see the lecture for Khilanani's definition). When talking about migration, if they are against refugees coming into "their" country it's Whiteness. If they go to help them in their country of origin they're white saviours! Why isn't opposition to migration a Right Wing/conservative thing? Is Candace Owens displaying Whiteness when she speaks? What about Myanmar and their treatment of the Rohingya, is it a South East Asian thing?
 
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I'm not saying you're a victim, I'm saying that "whiteness" is linked to pejorative opinions and that it's more socially acceptable to be racist against white people, even if it's "just a joke".

When talking about white people being hurtful to POCs it's because of Whiteness. If a they help a POC in some way they're masking their racism with White Goodness (see the lecture for Khilanani's definition). When talking about migration, if they are against refugees coming into "their" country it's Whiteness. If they go to help them in their country of origin they're white saviours! Why isn't opposition to migration a Right Wing/conservative thing? Is Candace Owens displaying Whiteness when she speaks? What about Myanmar and their treatment of the Rohingya, is it a South East Asian thing?
People say stupid things, particularly when they hold bigoted views.

For example, I recall one bigot arguing that because black people can be more faster than other people, then it makes sense that black people can be more stupider than other people. Should this bigoted view be attributed to people who don't hold it?
 
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I hope this doesn't sound bigoted but Candace Owens and Thomas Sowell don't represent my views or experience as a black person and their existence doesn't negate that of racism. Nor am I convinced critical race theory exists only as a means to bash white people for being white or that systemic racism is a myth.
 
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It's a long paper (17 pages) and there's a fair bit of psychology theory in it that I'll admit I'm not familiar with since I only studied Psychology at AS Level and Psychiatry at Undergraduate level but I think I get the gist. Basically Whiteness (his capitalisation to distinguish it from the word "whiteness" describing the colour of skin) is a condition that can affect mainly white people and is linked to many negative thoughts and actions. I could discuss it further but first I'd have to finish it.
Yet before you had finished it you knew exactly what had caused its creation?


Censorship is totally different as I'm disagreeing with her views, not on whether the university should host her so the irony is lost on me. I don't know how it's a "poorly considered attempt" as it seems to share the hallmarks with CRT unless you find Khilanani's lecture nothing to do with CRT. I guess this is a result of the difference on how it is defined with more liberal people having a very rigid view and conservatives holding a looser interpretation.
Missing the point utterly and completely.


Have you heard of Candace Owens.

They support their own and shout down their opponents, much like most people on Earth.
I have, have you heard of exceptions to a rule?

I hope this doesn't sound bigoted but Candace Owens and Thomas Sowell don't represent my views or experience as a black person and their existence doesn't negate that of racism. Nor am I convinced critical race theory exists only as a means to bash white people for being white or that systemic racism is a myth.
Exactly, and most of the attacks on CRT are based on extremes and are used as a distraction, which funnily enough is exactly the case we are seeing here.
 
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People say stupid things, particularly when they hold bigoted views.

For example, I recall one bigot arguing that because black people can be more faster than other people, then it makes sense that black people can be more stupider than other people. Should this bigoted view be attributed to people who don't hold it?
No-ones saying that it should be attributed to other people if there's no evidence for it - this discussion is about how the topic of race has transformed in the past few years/decades.

Yet before you had finished it you knew exactly what had caused its creation?
The central thesis is presented in what I read and the bulk of the rest of it seems to be the author's evidence (yet the whole 17 page article has only 4 citations....).

Scaff
I have, have you heard of exceptions to a rule?
Doesn't it make more sense that they hate those opinions and want to "cancel" them because they are contrary to theirs, rather than the fact that they are from a POC? That doesn't mean none of it comes from overt bigotry or that some of them also hold bigoted views in the background.

Scaff
Exactly, and most of the attacks on CRT are based on extremes and are used as a distraction, which funnily enough is exactly the case we are seeing here.
I'm more interested in the trickle down effects seen in current societal attitudes, stuff like the Coca Cola seminar urging people to "be less white" or Instagram having a "mute white people" sticker (note they didn't create it - that was a Right Wing myth). You could argue all 4 of these examples are "extremes" but I have noticed a gradual change where such sentiments, or at least unfavourable views on white people are increasingly brought up in conversation.
 
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No-ones saying that it should be attributed to other people if there's no evidence for it - this discussion is about how the topic of race has transformed in the past few years/decades.
The post of mine that you quoted is relevant to such a discussion.
 
This is the new Political Correctness, isn't it? How do you get through the days of terror?
Were I not glued to the Guido Fawkes comment sections I wouldn't be receiving a steady flood of these examples that never seem to make the mainstream headlines.

Oh, wait... I'm not and I'm not.
 
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The central thesis is presented in what I read and the bulk of the rest of it seems to be the author's evidence (yet the whole 17 page article has only 4 citations....).
And you still miss the point.

You have presented no evidence beyond 'because I say so' that this is a result of CRT rather than hundreds of years of systemic racism.

Doesn't it make more sense that they hate those opinions and want to "cancel" them because they are contrary to theirs, rather than the fact that they are from a POC? That doesn't mean none of it comes from overt bigotry or that some of them also hold bigoted views in the background.
So close with the last sentence, so damn close

But then we get...
I'm more interested in the trickle down effects seen in current societal attitudes, stuff like the Coca Cola seminar urging people to "be less white" or Instagram having a "mute white people" sticker (note they didn't create it - that was a Right Wing myth). You could argue all 4 of these examples are "extremes"
And I've already shown you that these views have existed since before CRT was even a thing, as such you have utterly failed to prove that CRT is the cause. However it does certainly appear that its another (along with pronouns, cancel culture and Political Correctness) that allows conservatives to play the victim.

Let's be 100% clear about this, you made the claim that CRT was the cause behind incidence such as this, yet you have so far failed to actually prove that.

but I have noticed a gradual change where such sentiments, or at least unfavourable views on white people are increasingly brought up in conversation.
Going to need a citation on this.

I think it's almost self-evident that even if it didn't work as well as you hoped, it would work better.

I'm wary of self-evident, simply because of the number of self-evident things that are actually anything but that.

What evidence exists that it would work better?


Because it's wrong. Not only is it the wrong fight, not only is it hard to convince people of, not only is it a negative message instead of a positive message, it's not even a correct message.

Just leaving this here in case it gets needed.
Its a negative message for white people, well arguably it can be taken as a negative message by some white people. I'm white and don't take it as a negative message at all, and what evidence exists that those who see it as a negative message would be convinced by a change of framing? I'm not so sure that if it were turned around we would not simply see the 'black people are playing the victim' argument come to the fore again.

Out of interest if it's the wrong message, then what is the 'right' message.
 
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Going to need a citation on this.
It's meaningless. Such a statement may be entirely truthful (fat chance given the source, mind) as it's subject to one's own experiences that are themselves largely determined by one's own actions. If I begin hanging out with vocal and violent racists, I'm likely to observe a marked increase in racist sentiment, and that doesn't even begin to suggest a marked increase in racist sentiment has occurred.

Garbage argument is garbage.
 
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It's meaningless. Such a statement may be 100% accurate (fat chance given the source, mind) as it's subject to one's own experiences that are themselves largely determined by one's own actions. If I begin hanging out with vocal and violent racists, I'm likely to observe a marked increase in racist sentiment, and that doesn't even begin to suggest a marked increase in racist sentiment has occurred.

Garbage argument is garbage.
Which would make it anecdotal evidence, and we know what weight that carries.
 
Which would make it anecdotal evidence, and we know what weight that carries.
This is what I was getting at, but I was explaining why it shouldn't have been tendered, much less be considered.
 
I'm wary of self-evident, simply because of the number of self-evident things that are actually anything but that.

What evidence exists that it would work better?

I could take this thread as evidence (or the white privilege thread). The usual pushback on white privilege is "where's my white privilege check". Not as many people (there are some) push back on the notion that racism against black people still exists. The Venn Diagram on that one would be pretty clear. That should be sufficient to tilt the scales. I don't know of a peer reviewed study in a reputable journal comparing whether people are more accepting of the notion that others have been harmed than they are the notion that they have been given an undue advantage. But it is how the human mind is wired, at a minimum this is present in the loss-aversion bias.

I don't have much interest in proving this point. It is, as far as I'm concerned, nearly self-evident.

Its a negative message for white people, well arguably it can be taken as a negative message by some white people. I'm white and don't take it as a negative message at all, and what evidence exists that those who see it as a negative message would be convinced by a change of framing? I'm not so sure that if it were turned around we would not simply see the 'black people are playing the victim' argument come to the fore again.

The positive message is "we should prevent harm and make things better". The negative message is "we should penalize people and make things (at least for some) worse".

Out of interest if it's the wrong message, then what is the 'right' message.

Racism exists, racism is bad, we should fight racism.
 
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Racism exists, racism is bad, we should fight racism.
Part of me wonders if observed pushback on this very notion may play a role in a supposed rise in those advocating for critical race theory.
 
Part of me wonders if observed pushback on this very notion may play a role in a supposed rise in those advocating for critical race theory.

I'm not entirely opposed to some of what is covered by critical race theory. I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This particular part of it, that white people benefit from racism, is a big soap box for me. Racism is not beneficial in any broad sense. Sure, an individual (like Trump) might stand to benefit, but society does not. And "white people" do not.
 
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I'm not entirely opposed to some of what is covered by critical race theory. I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This particular part of it, that white people benefit from racism, is a big soap box for me. Racism is not beneficial in any broad sense. Sure, an individual (like Trump) might stand to benefit, but society does not. And "white people" do not.
I don't know enough about critical race theory to either advocate for or oppose it, and so I don't. I don't agree with some of what has been presented by those defending the concept here, and at the same time I can be certain that it's been misrepresented by those opposing it, as they see fit, because it's a bogeyman.
 
I could take this thread as evidence (or the white privilege thread). The usual pushback on white privilege is "where's my white privilege check". Not as many people (there are some) push back on the notion that racism against black people still exists. The Venn Diagram on that one would be pretty clear. That should be sufficient to tilt the scales. I don't know of a peer reviewed study in a reputable journal comparing whether people are more accepting of the notion that others have been harmed than they are the notion that they have been given an undue advantage. But it is how the human mind is wired, at a minimum this is present in the loss-aversion bias.

I don't have much interest in proving this point. It is, as far as I'm concerned, nearly self-evident.
On this one we will have to disagree

The positive message is "we should prevent harm and make things better". The negative message is "we should penalize people and make things (at least for some) worse".

Racism exists, racism is bad, we should fight racism.
The question then is how?

I'm not entirely opposed to some of what is covered by critical race theory. I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This particular part of it, that white people benefit from racism, is a big soap box for me. Racism is not beneficial in any broad sense. Sure, an individual (like Trump) might stand to benefit, but society does not. And "white people" do not.
CRT doesn't claim that racism is beneficial to society, quite the opposite it argues that it's harmful to society. It perfectly possible for elements of society and/or individuals to benefit (directly or indirectly) from something that is overall harmful to society.

I would also have to disagree that white people do not benefit, white people are statistically less likely to be stopped by the police, less likely to be arrested , less likely to be charged, imprisoned and more likely to receive longer prison sentences than black people. The US legal system benefits white people over blacks, now you can argue that you see this as it disadvantages black people over whites, but that simply semantics, in the case of an imbalance one side is benefited and the other disadvantaged (and that's just one example).

To pull a few quotes from one of those who defined CRT:

"Critical race theory is a practice. It's an approach to grappling with a history of White supremacy that rejects the belief that what's in the past is in the past, and that the laws and systems that grow from that past are detached from it,"

"Like American history itself, a proper understanding of the ground upon which we stand requires a balanced assessment, not a simplistic commitment to jingoistic accounts of our nation's past and current dynamics."

CRT doesn't even shy away from using the term disadvantaged in regard to black people:

"Everything builds on what came before," Crenshaw said, adding that "the so-called American dilemma was not simply a matter of prejudice but a matter of structured disadvantages that stretched across American society."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/us/critical-race-theory-explainer-trnd/index.html

As such I honestly believe that CRT agrees with you in far more than I think you may be aware, and much of what you may believe CRT represents may well be a product of the right and the more extreme end of CRT (and everything has an extreme).

If you are interested in exactly what CRT is and how its evolved and why it seeks to do what it does, then the following is worth a read (and at 47 pages not too onerous an investment of time).
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...69628126531/DELGADO++Critical+Race+Theory.pdf
 
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I would also have to disagree that white people do not benefit, white people are statistically less likely to be stopped by the police, less likely to be arrested , less likely to be charged, imprisoned and more likely to receive longer prison sentences than black people. The US legal system benefits white people over blacks, now you can argue that you see this as it disadvantages black people over whites, but that simply semantics, in the case of an imbalance one side is benefited and the other disadvantaged (and that's just one example).
I think there is more than a semantic difference here because we're not balancing police stops, arrests, etc. These things are not being shared between two sides. There is an objective correct number of stops and arrests (only someone breaking the law should be arrested), etc and the rate at which one side is wrongly flagged for an event is independent of the rate for the other side. If for example whites are stopped 10% too often and blacks are stopped 50% too often by police, neither side is benefiting. They're both being wronged with the black side being wronged more often.
 
I think there is more than a semantic difference here because we're not balancing police stops, arrests, etc. These things are not being shared between two sides. There is an objective correct number of stops and arrests (only someone breaking the law should be arrested), etc and the rate at which one side is wrongly flagged for an event is independent of the rate for the other side. If for example whites are stopped 10% too often and blacks are stopped 50% too often by police, neither side is benefiting. They're both being wronged with the black side being wronged more often.
One side is still benefiting, by being 40 percentile points less likely to be stopped.

If you had a choice of being able to pick one of those two options, being 10% or 50% more likely to be stopped than the 'correct' number, which would it be of benefit to you to pick?

You are clearly going to pick 10%, as despite it still being over the odds, it offer a significant advantage over the 50%.

To make this real, white people are more likely to be charged for crime X by the police than rich white people, that's your 10%. Black people are even more likely to be charged for crime X by the police than rich white people, that's your 50%. while it's clearly the most advantageous to be rich and white, its also still significantly more advantageous to be white than black.

In any interaction with the US legal system, which would you pick to be?
  • Rich White (your 0% - in reality most likely below 0%)
  • White (your 10%)
  • Black (your 50%)
You're going to pick rich white, but if that option was removed you are still going to go for white. Under no rational circumstances are you going to pick black in these circumstances. As such a benefit to being white, rich or not, still clearly exists.

Oh, and rich black is likely going to fall around the 30% mark, black people with nice cars are unfortunately only too aware of this.
 
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On this one we will have to disagree

This is a time for reflection then. You honestly think that people will have no more trouble accepting that white people benefit from racism, something you even distance yourself below, than they do believing that racism has harmed black people. For one thing, how many people would say yes to one category (that white people benefit from racism) and say no to the other (that racism has harmed black people). To accept the first, you essentially cannot reject the second, but the reverse is not true. The Venn Diagram of people here is one of the many things that makes it self-evident.

You're demonstrating what is known as selective rigor.

The question then is how?

Some of what CRT advocates for would be ways to address that.

CRT doesn't claim that racism is beneficial to society, quite the opposite it argues that it's harmful to society.

And "white people" do not.
(emphasis added)

It perfectly possible for elements of society and/or individuals to benefit (directly or indirectly) from something that is overall harmful to society.

I stated as much:

Sure, an individual (like Trump) might stand to benefit

It should be evident that this is inclusive of the group of people that, for whatever reason, have attached their success or happiness to his success.

I would also have to disagree that white people do not benefit, white people are statistically less likely to be stopped by the police, less likely to be arrested , less likely to be charged, imprisoned and more likely to receive longer prison sentences than black people.

That's not a benefit. Demonstrate how stopping more black people, arresting more black people, charging or imprisoning more black people benefits white people. You cannot. It harms everyone, white people, police, all of society. Everyone. White people do not benefit from this.

The US legal system benefits white people over blacks, now you can argue that you see this as it disadvantages black people over whites, but that simply semantics, in the case of an imbalance one side is benefited and the other disadvantaged (and that's just one example).

Prejudice against black people in the judicial system does not benefit white people, it harms white people.



...from that link:

"Critical race theorists believe that racism is an everyday experience for most people of color, and that a large part of society has no interest in doing away with it because it benefits White elites."


From wikipedia:

"White privilege is the set of social advantages, benefits, and courtesies that come with being a member of the dominant race (i.e. white people). "

From wikipedia again:
Lawrence Blum refers to advantages for white people as "unjust enrichment" privileges, in which white people benefit from the injustices done to people of color, and he articulates that such privileges are deeply rooted in the U.S. culture and lifestyle:

When Blacks are denied access to desirable homes, for example, this is not just an injustice to Blacks but a positive benefit to Whites who now have a wider range of domicile options than they would have if Blacks had equal access to housing. When urban schools do a poor job of educating their Latino/a and Black students, this benefits Whites in the sense that it unjustly advantages them in the competition for higher levels of education and jobs. Whites in general cannot avoid benefiting from the historical legacy of racial discrimination and oppression. So unjust enrichment is almost never absent from the life situation of Whites.[15]:311

One of the tenants of CRT is that white people benefit from racism. They do not. White people who own houses are denied a corresponding rise in home prices if fewer people are permitted to buy houses. White people gain nothing from an uneducated population, from a less productive population, from a population that is less able to create wealth. We are not in competition for jobs or higher education, or yes, even housing. We grow together as a population, producing our own wealth and in the process raising the standard for all people. This notion, that white people are afforded some kind of benefit from holding down others is not just wrong, it fosters racism among white people who buy in. And it fuels not just hatred toward illegal immigration, but resistance to all immigration.

Convince a white person that they'll be harmed by black people being able to buy houses or get into college and you've convinced a white person to rail against immigration of any kind - and to incorrectly view the economy as a fixed pie that they are unwilling to share. It is detrimental to the development of society, and deeply detrimental to white people. Not only does it foster resentment, stifle education, and stifle wealth creation, but it breeds deeper xenophobia that stirs international conflict and prevents cooperation across borders.

The notion that white people somehow benefit from racism is not just wrong, it's deeply toxic.
 
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