Racism - Ignored?
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So teneightyone you excuse the South Africa farm violence because of apartheid that the victims especially the younger ones wouldn't have been a part of? Wouldn't that be akin to excusing police brutality on blacks because they commit more violent street crime than other races. So you excuse their actions because of past apartheid "well look at how their ancestors treated us.. lets get them before they get us" mentality just like the cops may be thinking "oh wow it's a rough looking black man in a bad neighborhood he must be a criminal get him before he commits a violent crime" both are wrong thought processes. Yet no ne in large media dismisses police brutality yet find it easy to dismiss the South Africa violence against whites. Talk about being dismissive when you responded like that. See how you contradict yourself. The fact is typically racism against whites is never taken seriously even when it's a thing. People are brainwashed into believing only whites can be the progenitors of racism... that's the issue.
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UKMikey
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Oh boy... @TenEightyOne wasn't excusing violence against whites in South Africa. You said there was no real explanation for it and he provided a possible one that wasn't racism.
Meanwhile the documented cases of police brutality against black people who aren't criminals can't be excused by the fact that some of them are. Statistics don't give registered law enforcement officials a licence to go and beat up everyone of a particular colour. Their job is to fight crime.
Meanwhile the documented cases of police brutality against black people who aren't criminals can't be excused by the fact that some of them are. Statistics don't give registered law enforcement officials a licence to go and beat up everyone of a particular colour. Their job is to fight crime.
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- 115
- California
That would be based on race if they were doing it because of past apartheid.
Then there is social issues like this...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-spending-stores-dont-support-blm/3208170001/
So because of what some bad eggs in the police force have done(a few bad eggs that is and is in no way large scale systemic by any means) it's ok in people minds to boycott white owned businesses(that have nothing to do with the police force) because of what some members of an entirely separate entity committed. That's also racist.
Then there is social issues like this...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-spending-stores-dont-support-blm/3208170001/
So because of what some bad eggs in the police force have done(a few bad eggs that is and is in no way large scale systemic by any means) it's ok in people minds to boycott white owned businesses(that have nothing to do with the police force) because of what some members of an entirely separate entity committed. That's also racist.
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Yes, it's racial violence. You said there was no good reason and yet there is: the apartheid system of government and racist oppression was real, brutal and horrific. It's not surprising that there was a mentality of revenge, at least not to my mind.
If people want to boycott a business then that's up to them - but that's a separate argument. You say people are boycotting 'white-owned' businesses because of something to do with the police - can you give more details on that?
No. I didn't say that.
You are lying.
Source required.
Nurse required.
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- TexRex72
People get to boycott entities for whatever reason they choose. It's called freedom of choice. People also get to announce their intent to boycott an entity and make the case for others to do the same citing reasons that may include--to look at a pretty common justification which has been cited in the article you've linked to--their social policy. It's called freedom of expression. This is pretty basic stuff.
Swing and a miss.
Boycotting an entity represented largely by an individual or group identifiable by their race isn't racist. It's racist if the entity is boycotted because they're represented by an individual or group identifiable by their race. But that's not what's happened in the example cited in the article you've linked to. These entities are boycotted because of their social policies. That isn't racist.
By the way, people also get to be racist. To prosecute an individual because of their racist views would be criminalizing thought. That's bad. People also get to say racist things. Freedom of expression. And while one may be free to say racist things, they're not exempt from action as a result of their saying racist things. Unlawful action as a result of their saying racist things is wrong and ought to be prosecuted, but not all action as a result of their saying racist things is unlawful--boycotts, for example.
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I'd missed the link when I replied, apologies.
That says on June 19, advocates of Black Lives Matter plan to support the namesake civil rights movement by not spending money with companies that aren't aligned with the movement or have remained silent. Some efforts include boycotting celebrities and politicians who've been vocal in opposition to the movement.
You presented that as it's ok in people minds to boycott white owned businesses(that have nothing to do with the police force) because of what some members of an entirely separate entity committed. That's also racist. Where in any of that does it mention only boycotting white-owned businesses? I think you got too excited by the idea and decided a little early.
UKMikey
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The 26 examples of racial disparities I posted sound kind of systemic to me. If a few bad eggs are responsible for all police brutality then it shouldn't be hard for the other police to identify them and throw them out. And yet...
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- 115
- California
It's silly that you all refuse to admit systemic racism can apply to whites as victims. I can't take people like you seriously that look at being an ultimate victim as some sort of competition. All you white people that buy into this crud go ahead and bow into submission and apology for what your ancestors did and all you blacks go ahead and cry victim because you refuse to put your lives together.
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People need to take their lives and fate into their own hands and quit blaming their failures and insecurities on others. Instead of playing the race card left and right take charge and do something with their lives. I will never feel sorry for losers that chose to stay that way. It's their problem and theirs alone.
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- eran0004
So basically you’re ignoring racism?
Racism is a matter of social justice. Sure, it is possible to fight against racist structures and attitudes in society and succeed in life, but it’s not a fair and just society and that’s the problem.
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- 20,681
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Found the racist.
Scaff
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You will have no problem at all showing that it exists then.
Your Harvard example is not even valid as the case has since been dismissed, which does raise the question of why you omitted that fact.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news..., the justice,to reject the Harvard challenge.
As for you South African 'white genocide' nonsense, please don't insult us with that one.
The only person playing a victim card here is you.
That statement has no connection to reality at all.
For that to be true you would have to literally ignore centuries of history, literal centuries.
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- 437
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- merseyxshore
Really? In America? All of the economic, social and authoritative etc systems are run by, and weighted heavily in favour of, white people.
Keef
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On the back side of a Hawaiian island? Aw yeah. On a native reservation? Sure thing. In the hood? You betcha.
But those places where white people aren't welcome were created by white people. Natives hate us on their land because we stole all their land and carved out some rocks and desert for them to live on. Hawaiians hate us because we stole their islands and made them too fancy and expensive for them to live on anymore. Every step of the way, white people have dictated exactly what black people can do and where they can live, including designing ghettos specifically to push them all into and leave the rest of us to our peaceful suburbs.
There is no place in America where white people are the victims except those places designed by white people to keep everybody that white people hate. We designed those hells, every step of the way. You know that feeling you get when you're driving through the hood and you can just feel that everybody is looking at you, wondering what the hell you're doing there, and wondering if you're there to cause trouble? That's how black people, native Americans, and native Hawaiians feel every time they go to a suburban grocery store. While white people feel uncomfortable any time they enter the ghetto they created, the people who live there feel uncomfortable any time they leave it, because they know that ghetto was designed for them.
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- TexRex72
I mean...okay?
My interjection that you quoted was used to convey amusement at the remarks in the post above it, in particular the strawmanning of others' arguments by an individual who, in a very short time posting in this subforum, has demonstrated a propensity for deceitful argumentation tactics.
Also mildly amusing, but more disconcerting, was the broad-brush both-sidesing that may or may not have been racially motivated but definitely came off as racist.
My interjection wasn't offered to indicate support for or agreement with the remarks above it.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I read @Keef's response in that way and presumed that he'd quoted it for figurative colour, maybe literally too
As for @TripleMeteor's post, it seems that his party line is Shut up about racism because it's racist to say that whites are racist because that's RACISM and how about black people who are racist they deserve it because they're crying about racism and saying it's whites WHICH IS RACIST SHEEPLE.
I'm sure there's more of a nuance than even that but I'm getting dizzy.
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I can't believe how out of tune you all are to reality. It's rather disturbing really. I'm not a victim neither are blacks in America overall. There are plenty of successful black people the difference between them and the ones that cry "I'm a helpless victim of social injustice the system is geared for me to fail" and the ones that succeed is attitude and work ethic.. simple as that.
So you're telling me that hard work and positive attitude has NO bearing on finding success in life. Hmm ok that's the silliest thing I've heard in a while. Chances are that one is more likely than not to become successful regardless of race if they get a degree and show work ethic. Many blacks from the ghetto areas or sub par neighborhoods became successful doctors, lawyers, or businessmen. I guess they got their with a bad work ethic and a bad attitude eh?? hahaha. Nope they chose to do everything they could to get out of the life their parents placed them in. If their parents did the same they'd also have had a better start at life. Very simple and it's reality whether you think it is or not.
So you're telling me that hard work and positive attitude has NO bearing on finding success in life. Hmm ok that's the silliest thing I've heard in a while. Chances are that one is more likely than not to become successful regardless of race if they get a degree and show work ethic. Many blacks from the ghetto areas or sub par neighborhoods became successful doctors, lawyers, or businessmen. I guess they got their with a bad work ethic and a bad attitude eh?? hahaha. Nope they chose to do everything they could to get out of the life their parents placed them in. If their parents did the same they'd also have had a better start at life. Very simple and it's reality whether you think it is or not.
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- TexRex72
Why are you so intent on engaging in bad faith, repeatedly strawmanning others' remarks or evading them entirely?
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Pot calling the kettle black.
There are literally centuries of American History that would prove you wrong. There are also several public events in the past few years that would prove you wrong.
And there are a multitude of examples in history of even the most successful African-Americans being subjected to social injustice. The FBI's attempts to blackmail MLK Jr. and the birther movement spring to mind.
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UKMikey
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The Washington Generals beat the Globetrotters in 1971... it must be a totally level playing field, right?
This seems like the kind of logic being applied here.
Nobody is saying that luck doesn't make a difference. Just that minorities need a lot more of it to succeed.
This seems like the kind of logic being applied here.
Nobody is saying that luck doesn't make a difference. Just that minorities need a lot more of it to succeed.
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- TexRex72
That's racist.
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- GTP_daan
Who knows, but that's pretty much what he did last time too.
Scaff
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Not what I said, and I suspect you know that and devoid of any actual rebuttal you head into strawman territory.
Good job I didn't say it then.
You will have no problem backing that up with evidence then (and not anecdotal)
And in doing so had to overcome significantly more institutional barriers that whites do (oh and I still didn't say that).
The tired myth of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, is just that, a myth.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/19/opinion/economic-mobility.html
Rather upward mobility (regardless of race) has dropped like a stone in the US:
http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf
The truth is that (with very few exceptions) if you are born rich you will remain rich in the US, and if you are born poor you will stay poor (and likely be poorer than your parents). That's true for poor white people, but more so for poor minorities. Even black people born into wealth are less likely to be successfully than white people born into wealth.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...arceration-income-chetty-hendren-jones-porter
It's about as real as 'trickle-down' economics.
Parents placed them in?
You quite clearly have no concept or understanding of the history of race within the USA.
Not banned, but got his arse handed to him with his racist diatribes he was unable to support and has chosen to come back and try again.
Which one do you want to keep @TripleMeteor? Because you don't get both.
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I think the relevant term here is "sockpuppet." Unless I'm mistaken, a sockpuppet is a sort of burner account for an active user through which said user may troll others without risking their primary.
Edit: I previously considered this was a returned banned user, but the language and tactics seemed very similar to an active user who once created an actual strawman--including naming it--to argue against libertarianism.
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McLaren
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Except in many cases, there isn't a difference. There are successful black people who saw the system was "geared for them to fail" and thus, had to work harder than necessary to succeed. These folks usually then commit part of their lives to changing the system so that other black folks don't have to work harder than necessary to succeed.
It's part of this weird attitude in America, usually from older Americans in my experience, that believe, "Because I had it hard, you've got to as well. It's called life". It doesn't have to be that difficult and in reality, it shouldn't for the most part. It's ok to look back and accept you had difficult obstacles and believe in making those obstacles easier for the next generation, if not for your children. But, many refuse or simply don't realize that society then is not society now. Their idea of say, struggling to pay for college whilst working 2 jobs shouldn't be all that necessary in the first place, but the task of doing so today is monumentally harder than it was when they were young. A lot of people now-a-days work 2 jobs just to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. The idea of thinking my hardships in life are hardships my children must face is asinine if I have the ability to make those challenges in life a little easier for them (& others) and as a result, make it easier for them to succeed than I did.
Edit* The key difference in this is that as a white man, I don't want my kids to choose between the idea of struggling to make it through college or having a home. For a black man, this issue is likely even more apparent but with the unnecessary added effect of their skin color to make the struggle that much harder by worrying about factors that won't apply to my children.
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