Rally in Gran Turismo 7: Should it Stay or Go?

[ShiftingGears]

They should include tracks like Charade that pass as tarmac rally stages. That way it can be run in forward or reverse. Same for running sections of Nurburgring and Bathurst as stages.

 

[Peter.]

I used to really enjoy rallying ever since its inception in GT2. It probably started to become a little less fun around GT4 with the repeat special events, but the prize cars were always worth the effort. It still had its charm all the way through.

But for myself, and many, GT was a gateway to other motorsports growing up, even if it doesn't specialize or do it particularly well. Before GT it was nothing, and after playing GT growing up, if I really liked the rallying aspect and wanted to see more of it, I'd begin watching the real WRC, or go play Colin McRae, and later on, DiRT, which I did. At no point did I enjoy these more realistic iterations of rallying and think 'damn GT's rally experience was rubbish, why did they try?', not while it initially piqued my curiosity, all the while helping to romanticize so many iconic rally cars over the years. I'm older now, but a younger generation will probably get the same experience out of playing GT7.

Plus, if it's already there in the game, why leave it out?

Okay, I've since given it some thought, having played rally in GT Sport, and having re-watched a lot of old Rally gameplay from GT2 through to GT4.

Rally stinks now. Something just so drab, slow and lifeless about the actual rallying itself, which was maybe passable back when the tracks were both narrower, more twisty, and blended tarmac and dirt/snow in a somewhat imaginative way. They've completely lost their direction in this aspect. We don't even have Citta di Aria, Costa di Amalfi and George V Paris anymore as windy, narrow street circuits to take advantage of the somewhat healthy catalog of rally cars combined with what is of course a good tarmac physics engine.

I think they are not sure or willing to embrace the time trial nature of rallying while going in a multiplayer direction, so they instead decide to overlook one of the core aspects of rallying as a motorsport, and have tracks that are wide enough to have multiple cars racing one-another in some sort of rallycross type of thing, but don't buy into it in any way that adds value to rallying a a subcategory in the game. That combined with a not only unrealistic bit highly boring dirt/snow physics model, puts rallying in a weird place right now.

 

[MIE1992]

I think we should note that when the real-world Group B was banned, a lot of the cars went on to other rally venues - including Pikes Peak. In this sense, I suppose, you could say the Pikes Peak-spec Audi Quattro in GT Sport is as much of a Group B car as the Audi S1 Quattro that was actually in Group B - and was in GT6, but not Sport.

I'm not sure if I could see the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak in Gr.B for this reason, so I think there could be a class for more modern rally cars which would include it. But I also definitely like the idea of a "Gr.C" for pre-Group B rally cars, like the Lancia Stratos, as well as a place for the more modern rally cars like the Citroen C4 WRC from the PS3 era. So perhaps there could be a "Gr.A" for post-Group B rally cars, and "Gr.C" for pre-Group B.

I'm also hoping at least one of these groups - perhaps Gr.B - could be part of the Manufacturers Series, especially with how many more automakers could be represented if more cars from the real Group B were added, both from prior GT games and real life. The missing gaps could be filled in by made-for-game cars, especially for brands like Lamborghini - though the Huracan Sterrato (or a made-for-game version resembling it) could definitely have a place in Gr.B.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I'm going to say keep it because if I'm honest; I loved the "rally" events that were in the earlier GT titles in spite of not really being true rallying. At least I had fun with them between GT2 & 4, Gran Turismo 3 was probably where I enjoyed them the most as the physics felt just right. I even enjoyed GT Sport's offroad events to some degree, the only problem is that they don't implement them enough in spite of creating specialized cars for the series and adding 2 pickup trucks as DLC.

GT5's special rally event was admitably a bit fun for me aswell. Due to this, I would prefer if the rally events were kept and PD actually creates more events surrounding them in GT7. Of course to do that, they would need to add more dirt courses like those which would hopefully include some of their old dirt tracks. I really miss Tahiti Circuit and Smokey Mountain. In addition, I would love for PD to bring back the special rally events they had in GT5, but expand on that aswell.

 

[Monkey Man]

Couldn't have said it better myself, bro'.

It all fell apart for me the moment PD introduced the Grand Canyon track 'cause that iteration of GT suddenly saw our cars sliding like they were on glass. The "bite-in" I'd normally expect in corners just wasn't there, and this alone robbed me of most of the fun I have when rallying.

At first I thought it was just the loose-pebble nature of the aforementioned track, but the physics model seemed to apply a similar mentality to all dirt tacks from that moment onwards. I was not happy!

 

[Unknown GT]

Dude don't get me wrong, I love Rally, I loved every track in Gran Turismo 4 and Thaiti Maze for me is the Emblem of Dirt Tracks! But if the trend is to be what we received for GT Sport then it is better to let the Rally go away from the series, let's not forget that from 2017 to today we still have the possibility to choose snow tires for our cars but the snow? On GT Sport not even the shadow.

 

[MIE1992]

Something tells me that rally is definitely here to stay whether we like it or not, what with the Pikes Peak licensing. I do hope that the partnership with Michelin will help with how cars grip all surfaces, tarmac and otherwise. But I really do like the idea of a "Gr.C" for pre-Group B rally cars like the Lancia Stratos, and a "Gr.A" for more modern, WRC rally cars, especially those that were seen in the PS3 era like the Citroen C4 WRC.

 

[MroczMR]

Something tells me that rally is definitely here to stay whether we like it or not, what with the Pikes Peak licensing. I do hope that the partnership with Michelin will help with how cars grip all surfaces, tarmac and otherwise. But I really do like the idea of a "Gr.C" for pre-Group B rally cars like the Lancia Stratos, and a "Gr.A" for more modern, WRC rally cars, especially those that were seen in the PS3 era like the Citroen C4 WRC.

There is only one group C...

 

[MIE1992]

There is only one group C...

As there is only one Group B. But you knew I was referring to GT’s designations, right?

 

[MroczMR]

I know. But naming Group C some rally cars would be weird and misleading for many petrolheads

 

[MIE1992]

I know. But naming Group C some rally cars would be weird and misleading for many petrolheads

I want to agree, but I do think the "Gr.[letter]" naming theme could be good for various classes of rally cars. Although that said, they could always just pick a different letter, or even use more than one letter. Like for modern rally cars, it could be Gr.WRC instead of Gr.A. Or maybe Gr.R, for "Rally"? And then there could be a "Gr.RV" for pre-Group B cars - i.e. Vintage Rally - like the Lancia Stratos. It'd be similar to an idea I had for a "Gr.1V" and "Gr.3V" for vintage prototypes like the Ferrari 330 P4 and vintage grand tourers like the Shelby Daytona Coupe, respectively.

Either way, I do also strongly believe a "Gr.D" should be formed for cars tuned for drifting like the BP Falken RX-7, but I digress. Here's hoping some of the actual Group B rally cars seen in prior GT games will return, as well as some new ones, like the Daihatsu Charade, or the rumored Lancia 037.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Just found this video of someone hacking GTS to make one of the main menu background animation track drivable. Turns out PD knows how to make a proper touge/rally stage after all! Imagine the course generator from GT5 or the track maker from GT6 if we can make a road this narrow, you can pretty much create a rally game with infinite stages

 

[MIE1992]

Just found this video of someone hacking GTS to make one of the main menu background animation track drivable. Turns out PD knows how to make a proper touge/rally stage after all! Imagine the course generator from GT5 or the track maker from GT6 if we can make a road this narrow, you can pretty much create a rally game with infinite stages

As much as I had fun with the rally event in GT5, I think I'd rather see point-to-point events based on fixed designs, like we'll likely see with Pikes Peak. I'd personally love it if, instead of dirt/snow circuits, we had point-to-point stages instead, on those same surfaces - both from the real world, and made for GT. I'm also not sure about a potential return of the GT6 course maker, though I can't say I'd really complain if it returned. I'd likely try to re-interpret some courses from some SNES/GBA racing games, like the original F-Zero, or Mario Kart: Super Circuit...

 

[ShiftingGears]

If they persevered with it. They could make rally stages out of sections of circuits + back roads if it saved effort relative to creating new tracks. See: Monza rally stages

It is hard not to make it tepid however, and the way they did it in GT4 might have worked if they made it a stage rather than making it rallycross with only one other car.

For instance, rallies like the Hessen Rallye have/had stages where it was four laps of an 8km circuit, which comprised of sections of an old grand prix circuit. Something similar could work, but PD needs to think it through.

They seemed to grasp the concept of rallying in GT5, but executed it terribly and learned nothing.

 

[ScottPuss20]

They seemed to grasp the concept of rallying in GT5, but executed it terribly and learned nothing.

There was an attempt.

 

[Imari]

I like the idea, but I feel like it needs more work than it can reasonably be given as a part of the main game. Making even a moderately decent rally experience isn't super easy. I'd prefer it to be spun off into it's own game (Gran Rallismo!) or at least made as like a major ~$30 DLC, because then it would justify the time and effort in development that would make it a really good experience. As it is it's going to continue being brown tarmac with the grip modifiers turned way down, and driving on real dirt, gravel and snow is so much more engaging than that.

 

[MIE1992]

I like the idea, but I feel like it needs more work than it can reasonably be given as a part of the main game. Making even a moderately decent rally experience isn't super easy. I'd prefer it to be spun off into it's own game (Gran Rallismo!) or at least made as like a major ~$30 DLC, because then it would justify the time and effort in development that would make it a really good experience. As it is it's going to continue being brown tarmac with the grip modifiers turned way down, and driving on real dirt, gravel and snow is so much more engaging than that.

Agreed, but I really do think rally is here to stay. Hopefully we'll get more than just racing on dirt/snow circuits, and instead, more events in the vein of a time attack, which does seem likely given the also-likely addition of Pikes Peak. I'd honestly prefer that PD scrap the dirt/snow courses that are circuits and instead have point-to-point stages.

I also would really like to see more Gr.B cars, as there are some strange omissions from the real Group B, including cars that've actually been in prior GT games, like the Peugeot 205 T16, Mitsubishi Starion 4WD, Lancia Delta S4, and the Renault 5 Maxi Turbo. That's before we get into the idea of a "Gr.A" and "Gr.C" respectively for rally cars after the Group B era, and before, such as the Ford Focus WRC and the Lancia Stratos. But we also should consider licensing for the actual WRC series, too, which would likely include the vehicles used.

 

[Dennismarinos]

Let's be honest The physics and tyre models in all of GT games has gotten better over the years but even in GT Sport it's still very Arcady. And the rally was just a tacked on after thought. No one plays GT games for the rally mode. I love the obscure races that force you to use classic cars that are 2L or less and etc, we need more of that and less crap that no one plays. The thing that keeps me coming back to gt games is the single player career and working your way up from a honda crx to fully modded super cars. Hopefully the "career" is really deep this time like it used to be in say part 4 or before. It would be good if they include a lot more licence tests and also have a difficulty slider while we are at it lol. In this modern day with online leaderboards for everything and sharing progress or having region based battles and progress this game could be awesome if they got someone in that knows how to build deep games like they used to.

 

[SquiggyBX534]

Maybe keep the cars and have SS races, but rally has never been their forte. However, what I would love, LOVE, would be Targa races, like Targa Newfoundland, or Targa New Zealand. Road Rally's that would play to GT's strengths.

 

[MIE1992]

To build on my last post, I do wonder what made-for-game Gr.B cars could appear in GT7, if any? I think the best way to go about that would be to make cars for automakers that did have Group B cars, but only had them for tarmac events. I think this was the case with both Ferrari and the BMW M1. So maybe PD could take a similar model - not even necessarily the same model - and spec it out so that it's better for either surface. I'd love to see what they'd do to the 288 GTO, as I think that was actually made for Group B. Then, for BMW, they could tinker with the 850csi or something - the E31 may've been after Group B, but it does seem similar to the M1, doesn't it?

 

[Samus]

Without a complete overhaul of the dirt physics the cars they include is basically a moot point. It will never be fun with the current physics.

 

[MIE1992]

Without a complete overhaul of the dirt physics the cars they include is basically a moot point. It will never be fun with the current physics.

That very well might change with the Michelin partnership. But even if it doesn't, I don't think rally is going anywhere - for better and for worse. Personally, I still think it has potential for expansion, especially the idea of new classes for post-Group B and pre-Group B rally cars, respectively such as the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak and the Lancia Stratos Rally Car. And that's before we mention the likely inclusion of Pikes Peak itself. I don't think it's just a matter of GT sponsoring it, either, as I recall another franchise (I think it was DiRT?) mentioning that they couldn't get Pikes Peak for their latest installment due to license exclusivity. So that could be fun, even if Pikes Peak has been paved over. Though maybe they'll include a historic version of Pikes Peak, when it was mostly dirt, since historic versions of famous courses isn't anything new for PD - just look at Brands Hatch and Monza.

 

[karelpipa]

This is the only proper rally special stage in the entire series. And given that you have to hack your PS4 and your game i think it speaks for itself how Poly should treat rally.

​

 

[Samus]

That very well might change with the Michelin partnership. But even if it doesn't, I don't think rally is going anywhere - for better and for worse. Personally, I still think it has potential for expansion, especially the idea of new classes for post-Group B and pre-Group B rally cars, respectively such as the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak and the Lancia Stratos Rally Car. And that's before we mention the likely inclusion of Pikes Peak itself. I don't think it's just a matter of GT sponsoring it, either, as I recall another franchise (I think it was DiRT?) mentioning that they couldn't get Pikes Peak for their latest installment due to license exclusivity. So that could be fun, even if Pikes Peak has been paved over. Though maybe they'll include a historic version of Pikes Peak, when it was mostly dirt, since historic versions of famous courses isn't anything new for PD - just look at Brands Hatch and Monza.

All I'm saying is if they're not going to massively improve the physics and the tracks then I'd rather they don't waste time on adding more rally cars. As you say though, I doubt they'll break their habits and we will indeed just get the same guff with some new cars for the 7th time.

 

[MIE1992]

All I'm saying is if they're not going to massively improve the physics and the tracks then I'd rather they don't waste time on adding more rally cars. As you say though, I doubt they'll break their habits and we will indeed just get the same guff with some new cars for the 7th time.

I think there's real potential for it to be different, between the Michelin partnership and the likely inclusion of Pikes Peak.

 

[wagnerFAM98]

I'm really late for this discussion, but better late than never.

Well, as much as I enjoyed the rally time trials on Gran Turismo 2 back when I was a kid, the general interest was slowly decreasing, and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport. With that said, I feel the rally NEEDS some big improvement for GT7, it absolutely CANNOT be a copy-paste from GT Sport. If it turns out to be that copy-paste, expect yet another failure from PD.

In my opinion, there are two main ways to revive the interest on rally for Gran Turismo 7:

The first one is probably what people are wishing for the most: a proper point-to-point stage system with more in-depth rally features. I'm essentially talking a mini Dirt Rally/WRC inside GT7. That would be more than enough to increase the interest of players, including me.

The second way is "simply" bringing back the classic rally tracks. If they really don't want to create something new, at least bring back some long-running names such as Smokey Mountain, Swiss Alps or Tahiti Maze. These are waaaaaay better rally tracks than the GT Sport ones, plus you get that nostalgia factor.

In short, it's either you go with a major reimagination or with a high dose of nostalgia. I can't see things going well on the other way around.

 

[o000o]

I'm really late for this discussion, but better late than never.

Well, as much as I enjoyed the rally time trials on Gran Turismo 2 back when I was a kid, the general interest was slowly decreasing, and now basically no one cares about it on GT Sport. With that said, I feel the rally NEEDS some big improvement for GT7, it absolutely CANNOT be a copy-paste from GT Sport. If it turns out to be that copy-paste, expect yet another failure from PD.

In my opinion, there are two main ways to revive the interest on rally for Gran Turismo 7:

The first one is probably what people are wishing for the most: a proper point-to-point stage system with more in-depth rally features. I'm essentially talking a mini Dirt Rally/WRC inside GT7. That would be more than enough to increase the interest of players, including me.

The second way is "simply" bringing back the classic rally tracks. If they really don't want to create something new, at least bring back some long-running names such as Smokey Mountain, Swiss Alps or Tahiti Maze. These are waaaaaay better rally tracks than the GT Sport ones, plus you get that nostalgia factor.

In short, it's either you go with a major reimagination or with a high dose of nostalgia. I can't see things going well on the other way around.

The rally in GT are bad about their physics primarily. GT2's rally physics back then resemble the physics on GT1, then GT3 and onwards have the soap effect for the cars in rally. I've played Dirt Rally 2.0 and the cars aren't sliding that much like here. GT5 was the one game that has point-to-point system in Gran Turismo Rally, I think that's the step in the right direction.

 

[Scaff]

But we also should consider licensing for the actual WRC series, too, which would likely include the vehicles used.

Not going to happen.

Nacon has the licence until 2024, and then it moves to Codemasters for a 'multi-year' deal.

Even then, with GT limited to a single platform, they would almost certainly never get the licence (nor would I personally want them to, given the appalling dirt physics of the GT series).

 

[hardvibes]

I hate it. It's static and the track limits make it so damn unrealistic.

PD still don't get it. We're not playing GT2 anymore.

 

[o000o]

I hate it. It's static and the track limits make it so damn unrealistic.

PD still don't get it. We're not playing GT2 anymore.

https://www.gtplanet.net/next-gran-turismo-will-be-a-combination-of-past-present-and-future/
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